In other words, they got nothing. That's all they ever will have. Which is what COE will ultimately amount to. Nothing. Ever.
Damn.
Well guess I bought the whal- I mean king package for nothing
Obviously, I cannot see the future, but I can predict. And in my worthless opinion, I would have to say, that if you did buy that package........ You probably won't see anything from it.
Neither Yasha or Geezer called you a white knight in this thread, yet you did call out Geezer for being part of "the circle jerk."
I realize you are posting the financials in what you believe is a neutral manner, but it comes across more as an attempt to show a positive message of support than a simple statement of fact.
Most people would follow up such figures with their reasoning why they think it is enough to complete the game, why it may or may not continue at that rate etc.
As you've not really stated why you post the numbers, people are perhaps making invalid assumptions as to your reasoning.
By the way, "true neutral" has always been the toughest alignment to play in D&D, many have argued it doesn't really even exist.
As you saw one of them admitted they did, but yeah it might not have been in this thread. Unfortunately when replies start jumping on a bandwagon then yes there is a bit of a circle jerk going on. And it happens whenever something that is not clearly negative against SBS is posted.
Obviously if they continue to generate funding that is a positive. I want them to continue working on this game! The information itself is neutral, not my or anyone elses opinion, which is what is important. The reaction to neutral information showcases the mentality of some of the posters here. They react aggressively to counteract anything that could possibly reflect positively on SBS.
As to whether it is enough is very much the question and I don't claim that it is.
I just created an account, because I'm one of many concerned (bought one of the more expensive packages). As Slapshot has proposed (don't know in which threat it was), I wrote SBS, to ask if a refund would be possible, because they significantly changed the delivery time (still no VOX Elyria - initial
timeline) and also changed the “fabric” (SpatialOS) of the game on which it shoud have been built on (which should have made it all possible). In my eyes the product has significantly changed, which completely changes the terms of the initial deal (I pledged on).
To inform the concerned CoE pledgers, they won't refund you (I got a clear response - I won't be refunded).
I'm kinda disapointed. I thought from a moral point of view, it would have been normal, refunding people who in majority pledged for a game, thinking it will run on SpatialOS, but now will "be running" on an "inhouse solution".
EDIT: I don't wanna cause drama / unnecessary discussions with this post. Just wanted to inform, if you already thought of asking for a refund.
I just created an account, because I'm one of many concerned (bought one of the more expensive packages). As Slapshot has proposed (don't know in which threat it was), I wrote SBS, to ask if a refund would be possible, because they significantly changed the delivery time (still no VOX Elyria - initial
timeline) and also changed the “fabric” (SpatialOS) of the game on which it shoud have been built on (which should have made it all possible). In my eyes the product has significantly changed, which completely changes the terms of the initial deal (I pledged on).
To inform the concerned CoE pledgers, they won't refund you (I got a clear response - I won't be refunded).
I'm kinda disapointed. I thought from a moral point of view, it would have been normal, refunding people who in majority pledged for a game, thinking it will run on SpatialOS, but now will "be running" on an "inhouse solution".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this how SC refunds started: they refused until someone forced the refund through the credit card company? I might be wrong cause I'm just a tourist in the whole SC drama.
I just created an account, because I'm one of many concerned (bought one of the more expensive packages). As Slapshot has proposed (don't know in which threat it was), I wrote SBS, to ask if a refund would be possible, because they significantly changed the delivery time (still no VOX Elyria - initial
timeline) and also changed the “fabric” (SpatialOS) of the game on which it shoud have been built on (which should have made it all possible). In my eyes the product has significantly changed, which completely changes the terms of the initial deal (I pledged on).
To inform the concerned CoE pledgers, they won't refund you (I got a clear response - I won't be refunded).
I'm kinda disapointed. I thought from a moral point of view, it would have been normal, refunding people who in majority pledged for a game, thinking it will run on SpatialOS, but now will "be running" on an "inhouse solution".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this how SC refunds started: they refused until someone forced the refund through the credit card company? I might be wrong cause I'm just a tourist in the whole SC drama.
Hi,
I payed with paypal (credit card). As far as I know, Paypal excluded payments made to crowdfunding campaigns from their buyer protection programs.
So I think that I don't have any chance to get my money back.
I just created an account, because I'm one of many concerned (bought one of the more expensive packages). As Slapshot has proposed (don't know in which threat it was), I wrote SBS, to ask if a refund would be possible, because they significantly changed the delivery time (still no VOX Elyria - initial
timeline) and also changed the “fabric” (SpatialOS) of the game on which it shoud have been built on (which should have made it all possible). In my eyes the product has significantly changed, which completely changes the terms of the initial deal (I pledged on).
To inform the concerned CoE pledgers, they won't refund you (I got a clear response - I won't be refunded).
I'm kinda disapointed. I thought from a moral point of view, it would have been normal, refunding people who in majority pledged for a game, thinking it will run on SpatialOS, but now will "be running" on an "inhouse solution".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this how SC refunds started: they refused until someone forced the refund through the credit card company? I might be wrong cause I'm just a tourist in the whole SC drama.
Check with your credit card company, chargebacks may still be an option. But be quick, the clock (60 to 90 days) sometimes starts on the day you find out they aren't going to meet the terms of the agreement or they decline your refund request.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I just created an account, because I'm one of many concerned (bought one of the more expensive packages). As Slapshot has proposed (don't know in which threat it was), I wrote SBS, to ask if a refund would be possible, because they significantly changed the delivery time (still no VOX Elyria - initial
timeline) and also changed the “fabric” (SpatialOS) of the game on which it shoud have been built on (which should have made it all possible). In my eyes the product has significantly changed, which completely changes the terms of the initial deal (I pledged on).
To inform the concerned CoE pledgers, they won't refund you (I got a clear response - I won't be refunded).
I'm kinda disapointed. I thought from a moral point of view, it would have been normal, refunding people who in majority pledged for a game, thinking it will run on SpatialOS, but now will "be running" on an "inhouse solution".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this how SC refunds started: they refused until someone forced the refund through the credit card company? I might be wrong cause I'm just a tourist in the whole SC drama.
Check with your credit card company, chargebacks may still be an option. But be quick, the clock (60 to 90 days) sometimes starts on the day you find out they aren't going to meet the terms of the agreement or they decline your refund request.
So you think I should try it with the paypal buyer protection? Or contact my CreditCard Company directly?
I just created an account, because I'm one of many concerned (bought one of the more expensive packages). As Slapshot has proposed (don't know in which threat it was), I wrote SBS, to ask if a refund would be possible, because they significantly changed the delivery time (still no VOX Elyria - initial
timeline) and also changed the “fabric” (SpatialOS) of the game on which it shoud have been built on (which should have made it all possible). In my eyes the product has significantly changed, which completely changes the terms of the initial deal (I pledged on).
To inform the concerned CoE pledgers, they won't refund you (I got a clear response - I won't be refunded).
I'm kinda disapointed. I thought from a moral point of view, it would have been normal, refunding people who in majority pledged for a game, thinking it will run on SpatialOS, but now will "be running" on an "inhouse solution".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this how SC refunds started: they refused until someone forced the refund through the credit card company? I might be wrong cause I'm just a tourist in the whole SC drama.
Check with your credit card company, chargebacks may still be an option. But be quick, the clock (60 to 90 days) sometimes starts on the day you find out they aren't going to meet the terms of the agreement or they decline your refund request.
So you think I should try it with the paypal buyer protection? Or contact my CreditCard Company directly?
Thanks for your help.
I'd start with Paypal if they delivered the funds, but if no satisfaction save all evidence and present to the credit card company.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I just created an account, because I'm one of many concerned (bought one of the more expensive packages). As Slapshot has proposed (don't know in which threat it was), I wrote SBS, to ask if a refund would be possible, because they significantly changed the delivery time (still no VOX Elyria - initial
timeline) and also changed the “fabric” (SpatialOS) of the game on which it shoud have been built on (which should have made it all possible). In my eyes the product has significantly changed, which completely changes the terms of the initial deal (I pledged on).
To inform the concerned CoE pledgers, they won't refund you (I got a clear response - I won't be refunded).
I'm kinda disapointed. I thought from a moral point of view, it would have been normal, refunding people who in majority pledged for a game, thinking it will run on SpatialOS, but now will "be running" on an "inhouse solution".
EDIT: I don't wanna cause drama / unnecessary discussions with this post. Just wanted to inform, if you already thought of asking for a refund.
The problem with getting a refund.......It's spent.
PP reps are extremely easy to work charge-backs out with.
I believe there's even a option of "item wasn't described as listed" in their charge-back process. As was said before, if you get on the phone with the reps, and explain to them the entire situation you have a good shot at a charge-back.
Honestly, I think you may be one of the many who will and have already done a chargeback.
If they're not gonna give playable demo's on the game, they could have at least elaborated on their mechanics such as the skill trees to keep the hype up.
To be clear, in my totally unprofessional view anyone who used a credit card can get a charge back for non delivery of the product purchased. That said, I am not advocating people do that currently. There are real jobs with real families involved. It’s doubtful that they could continue development if they had to refund a significant chunk of their customers.
Its really just a screwed up situation right now.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Meh, game companies lay off people all the time, does not mean anything.
Also, doing a charge back on your credit card is not a good idea, since they did not give you a time frame for the product, as such this would fall under something you paid to have made (like a hand crafted product) and they could contest this move from the credit company directly, and would most likely win, which would tank your personal credit score something fierce.
Just saying on that.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
To be clear, in my totally unprofessional view anyone who used a credit card can get a charge back for non delivery of the product purchased. That said, I am not advocating people do that currently. There are real jobs with real families involved. It’s doubtful that they could continue development if they had to refund a significant chunk of their customers.
Its really just a screwed up situation right now.
Granted that someone who spends 10k on a video game should also afford to lose that money. But can you please stop the dramatization of the situation? People everywhere loses jobs every day, it's the way our economy works.
What is the alternative? Keep sending money to a company that doesn't produce just because you want to keep the employees happy? This has been around since Keynes brought it up —"The government should pay people to dig holes in the ground and then fill them up" — and has been proven wrong countless times throughout history.
One thing is boycotting a product to cause damage to the company which is disgraceful, another is to buy a mediocre product (instead of the superior one next to it) just because the company needs money. I am all for meritocracy and if SBS turns up to be inadequate, for whatever reason, there is no point in trying to keep them going.
Meh, game companies lay off people all the time, does not mean anything.
Also, doing a charge back on your credit card is not a good idea, since they did not give you a time frame for the product, as such this would fall under something you paid to have made (like a hand crafted product) and they could contest this move from the credit company directly, and would most likely win, which would tank your personal credit score something fierce.
Just saying on that.
Wow there is so much wrong there it’s unbelievable. First of all LOL at the blatant fearmongering about credit score.
Secondly: Example 1: There was an ETA given in the Kickstarter. Now the date is at least 2 years later. That’s not a minor change.
Example 2: The game was sold as having SpatialOS as the fabric it would be built on. Now they claim their homegrown system is going to do the same thing. Maybe... doubt it.. but either way it’s another huge change. If someone bought the game based on the statements about this technology then the product is clearly not as described.
(Of course all the above is purely my opinion. I’m not a lawyer no did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express. I do have basic common sense though and also have charged back successfully for a game delayed for years (Mortal Online)
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
To be clear, in my totally unprofessional view anyone who used a credit card can get a charge back for non delivery of the product purchased. That said, I am not advocating people do that currently. There are real jobs with real families involved. It’s doubtful that they could continue development if they had to refund a significant chunk of their customers.
Its really just a screwed up situation right now.
Granted that someone who spends 10k on a video game should also afford to lose that money. But can you please stop the dramatization of the situation? People everywhere loses jobs every day, it's the way our economy works.
What is the alternative? Keep sending money to a company that doesn't produce just because you want to keep the employees happy? This has been around since Keynes brought it up —"The government should pay people to dig holes in the ground and then fill them up" — and has been proven wrong countless times throughout history.
One thing is boycotting a product to cause damage to the company which is disgraceful, another is to buy a mediocre product (instead of the superior one next to it) just because the company needs money. I am all for meritocracy and if SBS turns up to be inadequate, for whatever reason, there is no point in trying to keep them going.
I guess my inner fan boy is peeking out. Honestly I would not charge back. I do hear everything you are saying though and generally agree.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Meh, game companies lay off people all the time, does not mean anything.
Also, doing a charge back on your credit card is not a good idea, since they did not give you a time frame for the product, as such this would fall under something you paid to have made (like a hand crafted product) and they could contest this move from the credit company directly, and would most likely win, which would tank your personal credit score something fierce.
Just saying on that.
Wow there is so much wrong there it’s unbelievable. First of all LOL at the blatant fearmongering about credit score.
Secondly: Example 1: There was an ETA given in the Kickstarter. Now the date is at least 2 years later. That’s not a minor change.
Example 2: The game was sold as having SpatialOS as the fabric it would be built on. Now they claim their homegrown system is going to do the same thing. Maybe... doubt it.. but either way it’s another huge change. If someone bought the game based on the statements about this technology then the product is clearly not as described.
(Of course all the above is purely my opinion. I’m not a lawyer no did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express. I do have basic common sense though and also have charged back successfully for a game delayed for years (Mortal Online)
First off.
It's not fear mongering, you pay for something and then try to back out, and if the credit company is left dealing with a problem, like contested fees, or worse yet, ends up refunding your money and still stuck paying the provider, it's your credit score that will suffer, personal experience talking.
Secondly.
You don't get to dictate how the game gets made unless you paid for that exact system to be installed, IE: You bought "The SpatialOS package" that says directly the game will provide you SpatialOS as a system, I am going to bet, what they really sold was nothing more then a digital product in the game itself, like "Super Lord of All Ultimate Amazing Package" that includes a MLP mount or something, and beyond that, I am going to bet no where in the print of sale did they mention to you how the game was going to programmed, or even what system requirements would be. As such, as long as they provide you what you paid for, how they go about doing it, is not for you to dictate.
Last:
Whatever you gave kickstarter is not refundable, in fact, Kickstarter says that directly. And trying to get that money back would be trying to get money back directly from Kickstarter, not CoE.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Actually, he is partially correct on it affecting your credit score.
Chargebacks are there to protect the consumer but if a person abuses that system then the credit card company could close the card and that affects your credit score.
Obviously this is a case by case basis.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
In other words, they got nothing. That's all they ever will have. Which is what COE will ultimately amount to. Nothing. Ever.
Damn.
Well guess I bought the whal- I mean king package for nothing
Obviously, I cannot see the future, but I can predict. And in my worthless opinion, I would have to say, that if you did buy that package........ You probably won't see anything from it.
I will offer friendship to anyone who did buy that package because I would assume they're loaded! Highly doubt they would hang out here though unless they are defending it. Which we have seen a few do.
"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." ~ C. S. Lewis
Comments
And in my worthless opinion, I would have to say, that if you did buy that package........
You probably won't see anything from it.
There you go.
Obviously if they continue to generate funding that is a positive. I want them to continue working on this game! The information itself is neutral, not my or anyone elses opinion, which is what is important. The reaction to neutral information showcases the mentality of some of the posters here. They react aggressively to counteract anything that could possibly reflect positively on SBS.
As to whether it is enough is very much the question and I don't claim that it is.
There really is no good spin to be made when people lose their jobs.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I just created an account, because I'm one of many concerned (bought one of the more expensive packages). As Slapshot has proposed (don't know in which threat it was), I wrote SBS, to ask if a refund would be possible, because they significantly changed the delivery time (still no VOX Elyria - initial timeline) and also changed the “fabric” (SpatialOS) of the game on which it shoud have been built on (which should have made it all possible). In my eyes the product has significantly changed, which completely changes the terms of the initial deal (I pledged on).
To inform the concerned CoE pledgers, they won't refund you (I got a clear response - I won't be refunded).
I'm kinda disapointed. I thought from a moral point of view, it would have been normal, refunding people who in majority pledged for a game, thinking it will run on SpatialOS, but now will "be running" on an "inhouse solution".
EDIT: I don't wanna cause drama / unnecessary discussions with this post. Just wanted to inform, if you already thought of asking for a refund.
I payed with paypal (credit card). As far as I know, Paypal excluded payments made to crowdfunding campaigns from their buyer protection programs.
So I think that I don't have any chance to get my money back.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thanks for your help.
Good luck, let us know how it goes.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I believe there's even a option of "item wasn't described as listed" in their charge-back process. As was said before, if you get on the phone with the reps, and explain to them the entire situation you have a good shot at a charge-back.
Honestly, I think you may be one of the many who will and have already done a chargeback.
If they're not gonna give playable demo's on the game, they could have at least elaborated on their mechanics such as the skill trees to keep the hype up.
I don't think they really care honestly, lol.
Its really just a screwed up situation right now.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Also, doing a charge back on your credit card is not a good idea, since they did not give you a time frame for the product, as such this would fall under something you paid to have made (like a hand crafted product) and they could contest this move from the credit company directly, and would most likely win, which would tank your personal credit score something fierce.
Just saying on that.
What is the alternative? Keep sending money to a company that doesn't produce just because you want to keep the employees happy? This has been around since Keynes brought it up —"The government should pay people to dig holes in the ground and then fill them up" — and has been proven wrong countless times throughout history.
One thing is boycotting a product to cause damage to the company which is disgraceful, another is to buy a mediocre product (instead of the superior one next to it) just because the company needs money. I am all for meritocracy and if SBS turns up to be inadequate, for whatever reason, there is no point in trying to keep them going.
Will see what they say. I will inform you. Wish you a nice evening.
Wow there is so much wrong there it’s unbelievable. First of all LOL at the blatant fearmongering about credit score.
Secondly:
Example 1: There was an ETA given in the Kickstarter. Now the date is at least 2 years later. That’s not a minor change.
Example 2: The game was sold as having SpatialOS as the fabric it would be built on. Now they claim their homegrown system is going to do the same thing. Maybe... doubt it.. but either way it’s another huge change. If someone bought the game based on the statements about this technology then the product is clearly not as described.
(Of course all the above is purely my opinion. I’m not a lawyer no did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express. I do have basic common sense though and also have charged back successfully for a game delayed for years (Mortal Online)
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It's not fear mongering, you pay for something and then try to back out, and if the credit company is left dealing with a problem, like contested fees, or worse yet, ends up refunding your money and still stuck paying the provider, it's your credit score that will suffer, personal experience talking.
Secondly.
You don't get to dictate how the game gets made unless you paid for that exact system to be installed, IE: You bought "The SpatialOS package" that says directly the game will provide you SpatialOS as a system, I am going to bet, what they really sold was nothing more then a digital product in the game itself, like "Super Lord of All Ultimate Amazing Package" that includes a MLP mount or something, and beyond that, I am going to bet no where in the print of sale did they mention to you how the game was going to programmed, or even what system requirements would be. As such, as long as they provide you what you paid for, how they go about doing it, is not for you to dictate.
Last:
Whatever you gave kickstarter is not refundable, in fact, Kickstarter says that directly. And trying to get that money back would be trying to get money back directly from Kickstarter, not CoE.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Chargebacks are there to protect the consumer but if a person abuses that system then the credit card company could close the card and that affects your credit score.
Obviously this is a case by case basis.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I will offer friendship to anyone who did buy that package because I would assume they're loaded! Highly doubt they would hang out here though unless they are defending it. Which we have seen a few do.