Is there a right way to do P2W (Pay to Win)?

learis1 · January 2018

It seems that whenever a game is labelled P2W it is basically the death sentence for that game for the majority of players. I think it's because the games profits come from the <5% of "whales" who spend thousands on the game, while the other 95% who don't will end up being completely underpowered.

Do you think there's any plan that could allow P2W to be successful? Perhaps it somehow caters to both average payers and whales? Or is P2W destined to always screw the majority over?

OhhPaigey · January 2018

Interesting question, nothing I can think of right now.

Some games only have cash shops for like a server wide double XP or drop rate. I'm okay with that, and like costumes, but other than that, nope.

Cryomatrix · January 2018

I think there is a right way to do it .

It's called two different servers. One server with P2W stuff in the cash shop + cosmetics and another server with just cosmetics.

Market one server for those with time instead of money and the other for those with money instead of time.

Everyone knows what they are getting in to. The servers are clearly delineated and labeled.

Also, on the P2W, have there be a cap that can be reached, so paying only really gets you stuff faster or at the highest levels it becomes diminishing returns.

Cryomatrix

OhhPaigey · January 2018

Cryomatrix said:

I think there is a right way to do it .

It's called two different servers. One server with P2W stuff in the cash shop + cosmetics and another server with just cosmetics.

Market one server for those with time instead of money and the other for those with money instead of time.

Everyone knows what they are getting in to. The servers are clearly delineated and labeled.

Also, on the P2W, have there be a cap that can be reached, so paying only really gets you stuff faster or at the highest levels it becomes diminishing returns.

Cryomatrix

I forgot Maplestory did that. The only "problem" with that is it basically killed the regular servers, everyone plays Reboot now lol. But yeah, good point.

4507 · January 2018

Yes, if:

1. You have alternate non-P2W servers, probably subscription-based, available

2. You allow converting in-game wealth to real-world wealth, not just the other way around

3. Your target market is East Asia

4. You're 99%+ single-player

5. You're using the arcade model of P2W (insert quarter to continue after dying)

Otherwise, no.

rojoArcueid · January 2018

there is one way to do P2W right. Market the game exclusively towards whales and that the game is not intended for people who will not be paying a lot of money. Make everyone know from the beginning that the game is Pay to Win.

Also always display the disclaimer that if you are not a whale you enter at your own risk because whales will always win by paying the most money for in game advantages.

If the game can survive with a handful of whales then you have yourself a successful P2W model. Just for whales.

NOTE: i will stay so far away from this game i will probably never know it exists.

learis1 · January 2018

I think the answer lies is making it as close to an even playing field as possible for both low-average payers and for whales, while still making the whales feel extra special or superior in some way. How that can be done... I'm not sure.

learis1 · January 2018

SedrynTyros said:

In my opinion, there are situations like with Chronicles of Elyria where they dynamic can fit well into the game's design, but in a competitive game where the majority of the player base recognizes a "win" condition (best in PvP, best in RAIDs, etc.) the cash shop pay-to-win stuff really drags down the game.

But let's say the game is purposely designed to be balanced off of whales. Each faction has around 5% of whales. They provide heavy buffs to your side, but they work like commanders. You can only have 1 whale for every 20 people in your group, or something like that.

In pvp, they are kind of like "bosses". You need a group of non-whales to take them out, or you can pit 1 whale vs. another.

I mean I know there's a lot of holes in this idea, but it almost sounds fun if you spin it the right way :P

AAAMEOW · January 2018

I'm never too sure what the problem p2w is. I think one of the poster keep saying "well I don't pvp, so why would p2w bother me".

I think the reality is you only feel underpower because there are people who become overpower by paying cash.

The irony is I think most p2w games are actually won by the grinders. People play less are the one paying cash to keep up.

Foncl · January 2018

I would respect a publisher/developer that markets very powerful and expensive pay to win items for some time and then hands it out for free to every player in the game.

You know kind of the opposite of what many games do, where they start out with a monetization most people accept at launch and then gradually introduce more and more pay to win once players are invested in the game. It's time to turn the scummy, dishonest and predatory business practices against the pay to win crowd.

Getting people who spend money on pay to win purchases to stop trusting that their undeserved advantages will last very long is a worthy cause, well worth that short period when they are actually at an advantage with their purchases.

Allerleirauh · January 2018

Cryomatrix said:

I think there is a right way to do it .

It's called two different servers. One server with P2W stuff in the cash shop + cosmetics and another server with just cosmetics.

Market one server for those with time instead of money and the other for those with money instead of time.

Everyone knows what they are getting in to. The servers are clearly delineated and labeled.

Also, on the P2W, have there be a cap that can be reached, so paying only really gets you stuff faster or at the highest levels it becomes diminishing returns.

Cryomatrix

This may sound like a good idea, but it'll never happen. You propose that they create separate servers, one for players who prefer to pay to get progress quickly, and another for those that would rather work for it, by playing for hours to get what they want.

The reason why they won't allow this is because they want those who are able to play for hours to give life to the server for those who pay to get ahead (whales). If you separate both groups, the group that would rather put in money instead of time, won't be on enough, as I would assume, they have a busy life, demanding job, family, kids, etc. Where the other group is possibly in a different position in life.

P2W games heavily depend on both groups on the same server, as the free to play players provide some of the game's entertainment. As much as I would like a game that does this, it will never happen for the reason that I mentioned.

Slapshot1188 · January 2018

learis1 said:

It seems that whenever a game is labelled P2W it is basically the death sentence for that game for the majority of players. I think it's because the games profits come from the <5% of "whales" who spend thousands on the game, while the other 95% who don't will end up being completely underpowered.

Do you think there's any plan that could allow P2W to be successful? Perhaps it somehow caters to both average payers and whales? Or is P2W destined to always screw the majority over?

Be upfront and open about it. Don’t hide it. Don’t wordsmith things. Just say that it’s P2W, explain why, and explain how that benefits the plebs.

ohioastro · January 2018

The only way to win is not to play.

LeFantome · January 2018

learis1 said:

It seems that whenever a game is labelled P2W it is basically the death sentence for that game for the majority of players. I think it's because the games profits come from the <5% of "whales" who spend thousands on the game, while the other 95% who don't will end up being completely underpowered.

Do you think there's any plan that could allow P2W to be successful? Perhaps it somehow caters to both average payers and whales? Or is P2W destined to always screw the majority over?

Dude.. what is wrong with you ?
It's like asking Is there a right way to torture someone. There is no way to get something good from something aweful, same for P2W.

P2W is only a way to milk a game, no matter if the game is good or not.

Viper482 · January 2018

learis1 said:

It seems that whenever a game is labelled P2W it is basically the death sentence for that game for the majority of players. I think it's because the games profits come from the <5% of "whales" who spend thousands on the game, while the other 95% who don't will end up being completely underpowered.

Do you think there's any plan that could allow P2W to be successful? Perhaps it somehow caters to both average payers and whales? Or is P2W destined to always screw the majority over?

P2w comes directly from f2p games not being able to get revenue any other way. Get rid of f2p and make everything sub again but with some free try it out time. I think the reason we have no much crap out there right now is no one feels the need to make a great game anymore, one people feel is worth subscription. Make a great game and people will pay $15 per month to play it. Warcraft doesn't need p2w for this very reason.

Tiller · January 2018

ohioastro said:

The only way to win is not to play.

The only way to lose is to talk about the game.

Image: https://forums.mmorpg.com/uploads/editor/ae/0m4ew48ivjmb.jpg

Tiller · January 2018

triple post

Tiller · January 2018

The game won

MadFrenchie · January 2018

Yes: on mobile.

#Fin

Vrika · January 2018

I think Entropia Universe is well done P2W: Using real money doesn't feel separate from the game, but rather it's an important element and the game would be less without it.

Xthos · January 2018

True p2w, I don't think you can get rid of it's problems. I think the compromise for a cash shop, is no-drop cosmetic, and then you have to be creative and make people really want the items in there. I dislike p2w, and I miss no cash shop, sub only games. I am currently playing the get around paying version of Archeage, called Altage.

Companies don't want to turn money down, even if it screws the game long term. Archeage is having a lot of uproar, people want easy paths or given things, and people that either worked hard or paid money aren't liking the aspect of having their hard earned or paid for stuff cheapened.

Dvora · January 2018

p2w is by definition bad, really a silly question to ask... Games are always supposed to START on an even playing field, you win or lose by your own skill and dedication. It's why we don't allow doping in sports, paying college athletes, the list goes on.

Tiller · January 2018

Vrika said:

I think Entropia Universe is well done P2W: Using real money doesn't feel separate from the game, but rather it's an important element and the game would be less without it.

I don't think there is a game there tbh. I played it, there is not much there. Take away gambling and you have something with the depth of a browser MMO.

Albatroes · January 2018

Short answer? Separate servers. Do a f2p p2w server where you can sell whatever you want and a sub only server with no work arounds like currency exchanges (wow token, apex, etc). Honestly, RO tried something like this (and I believe Allods does something like this too) just not sure how successful either was.

Xthos · January 2018

Just had a idea....If you are going to p2w, I guess you do it right. You 'fight' someone, and your gear is worth so much $, then you take that and compare it to the person you are fighting. If you are say +$50, they would have to hit the use credit card button and spend $50.01 to beat you, if you don't want to lose, you have to use your credit card button, and then whoever wants to p2w the most wins! If you could pull that off, it would be amazing (I wouldn't play, but just the idea of people doing it is crazy, and I wouldn't put it past people doing it). Could call it Whale Wars!

If you pvp a lot, the better your gear, it could save you money over the long haul, so they have 2 money streams, the gear, then the fight payment. I am mostly joking, but when broken down, p2w is kind of like this, just not as pronounced with a credit card button fight, it is credit card before the fight if they are p2wing.

Edit: Maybe even pay the winner a percentage of what the other person paid to try to beat them, and a discount on what they paid to win....Like a pvp p2w lotto.

Dvora · January 2018

DMKano said:

We cant even agree on what exactly P2W is

We cant have a meaningful discussion about P2W without a clear and universal definition on what constitutes P2W

If you want to be totally honest about it... P2W is any game that lets you trade real money (above base amount required to play) for any advantage in game. This includes - Monthly subscription tokens you can sell in game for in game cash - such as EVE's plex. People poo poo this as the norm nowadays but it really is a form of pay to win. ISK makes Eve's world go round. If you can trade cash for in game currency, and there is anything you can buy with game currency that puts you ahead, then it's P2W.

Any p2w is bad imo, but what makes the difference between "oh well..." and "f this" pay to win is the amount of grind required to catch up to the top tier players that bought their way to the top.

Some games purposely insert mindless grind and over the top RNG to encourage you to pay - ala Archeage and generally most Korean games. Thats a step beyond and I hope they end up getting regulated & taxed like the gambling casinos they are, to the point where they are no longer profitable.

I can tolerate a certain amount of pay for convenience, like a bit of extra storage space for a one time fee... As long as they don't purposely add redundant bag fillers just to push it. Todays par for the course p2w and endless crap DLC money grabs need to be heavily reined in.

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Is there a right way to do P2W (Pay to Win)?

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Is there a right way to do P2W (Pay to Win)?

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