Way back when KSer first took off I said a fully featured could not be made for the small amouns devs were asking for, even with MJs promise of additional funds bringing the total to $5 or 6M I was doutful, only buying in as he promised a scaled back, PVP only game which would make it all possible.
I said back then there is no way I could see a MMORPG worth a damn being made for less than $10 to 20M, and some people told me I was wrong.
Which I was, turns out the figure is more like $20 to 30M, seeing recent investment events with CU, Crowfall, Ashes, SotA and some others previously. (Star Citizen people?)
So when Caspian says he'll press forward without investors and build "the most amazing game ever" on what he's raising through KSer and continuing crowd funding alone, all I can do is laugh and say, not unless he plans to start selling spaceships.
"In fact, the development cost for BDO wasn’t that high. We had as many skilled personnel as we could get, and I personally put much dedication into it. It was around 11 million dollars. We modified the whole process in order to save some costs. The process was completely different from that of R2 or C9. We discussed many times internally, and we had to make an instant decision from time to time."
According to Glass Door, a Daum /Kakao software engineer makes 53M SKW annually which converts to $50K US. Also according to Glass Door the average gaming software engineer (based on 265K entries) is $104K.
So that $11M mentioned is roughly $23M or so if made in the US so my estimates are correct.
Also, BDO has cut some corners in making their game, such as not much spent on dungeon or high end raiding content, so I still think $30M is a reasonable guestimate to make a full featured MMORPG stateside.
It can certainly cost much more of course, see Star Citizen.
Also, I believe Daum was operating at a much higher efficiency than a indie dev just getting started.
An "assumption" I make when factoring in the "cost" of new hiring in terms of efficiency is to value them at a (-20%) efficiency rate as they drag down the productivity of whoever trains them. I increase it to (-10%) the 2nd month, zero the third and somewhere between the 6th and 9th month post hire rate them at 100% depending on how good they are.
Contracting firms hate me as they tell my management their employees (who are often a year or two out of school) are at 100% in 2 or 3 weeks.
Ha! I've yet to be proven wrong....unfortunately I've learned senior management hates it when they are proven to be.....so I can't gloat about it.
Oh yeah, I agree. That's why I added the link. I wasn't sure about KR dev wages vs US ones, but I figured the Western ones would run higher.
I would imagine that PA/Daum had their shit together compared to the average Indie as well, yeah.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Traditional funding requires you to prove your idea has merit to a group of investors. KS funding (and the like) only requires you convince some disaffected idiot gamer with $5 burning a hole in his/her pocket that you can make THE GREATEST GAME EVAR!!!
Kickstarter also has the advantage in getting pledgers to feel group empathy. They have literally "bought into" the idea and concept and in many cases feel that when the game fails its a reflection on them.
In some cases it's down right cult like. I mean a developer recently referred to "spreading the gospel" of his game.
The negative to this is that it turns off most of the "non-believers"
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The more complex a project. the more responsibility. structure. and accountability is required for that project to be successful.
Here, you have (typically) inexperienced developers shooting for the moon (because you kinda have to get people excited) on mmo projects that are already insanely complicated, with highly distributed funding sources that can exert almost zero accountability on the developers.
In other words, give people money for a highly complicated project with which they have no risk, without any significant oversight, and it will most likely amount to nothing.
Pantheon was dead in the water until they got an investor that put $10M into the project... Ashes of creation supposedly has $30M that can be used to fund the game...
They also seem to be shy about asking for the "right amount of money". I don't know what the kickstarter rules are if one's project doesn't fund successfully so that could be a part of it.
If you fail to raise the full amount you get nothing. Indiegogo have different rules for funding.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
They also seem to be shy about asking for the "right amount of money". I don't know what the kickstarter rules are if one's project doesn't fund successfully so that could be a part of it.
If you fail to raise the full amount you get nothing. Indiegogo have different rules for funding.
I realize that. But say I ask for 900k. and say I get 899k and fail.
Why don't they just do it again for a safe 890k? I mean that's only 10k which isn't that hard to raise. or put it to 899k and that's only 1k.
I've seen kickstarters "come close". But then that's the end of it. There must be something that's stopping them from doing that?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Pantheon was dead in the water until they got an investor that put $10M into the project... Ashes of creation supposedly has $30M that can be used to fund the game...
KS MMORPGs are not gonna happen.. too many variables have to be perfect for it to work. Cant name one that is successful. I said this from the start. Has little to do with KS more to do with the type of game people keep trying to make.
KS is a great thing. Can name several games that did very well.
Darkest Dungeon Pillars Of Eternity Divinity Original Sin Grim Dawn Torment: Tides of Numenera
So the problem to me isn't KS. KS is a great platform for Developers and Gamers alike. I think the problem is some people are still chasing that MMORPG magic that has long gone. Fans and Developers, It's gone and it was amazing, but it's not coming back ever in any shape or form and we have to be okay with that as a community. We really have to move forward. Seriously.
How many of these types of games need to fail before we realize that the 1st golden age of MMORPG has come and gone? I'm not sure what the second golden age will be but it sure as hell will not be anything that resembles the first. The moment Developers realize that and start innovating again instead of trying to recapture what worked in the early 2000s, we will see real progress and rejuvenation in the genre.
My 2 cents.
Edit: My point is, the type of MMORPGS on KS currently want to capture that old magic. But for the next great "MMO" to "happen" it's going to require ditching "The Magic" of old MMOs and that we embrace innovation not shun it because it doesn't have "the magic". We have to allow the new magic to happen.
It may also happen under a whole different set of rules and we have to be open to that. It may be a console game that does it, maybe a mobile game. A lot of times "the magic" people talk about is just plain Nostalgia and that does very little for the future of MMORPGs. Who knows how good and what Mobile or Console MMO games will be like 10 years from now?
The next great MMORPG will for sure have its own magic about it, its own thing that makes it special, but most people here would miss it because they are so busy looking for the past.
Post edited by klash2def on
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
What you're saying can be determined after Pantheon, CU & Crowfall come out.
imagine any one of them with the certainty of a proper budget.
I'm just happy the new wave of kickstarter game won't be cash shop heavy.
What makes you believe they won't be?
Funding is about getting the game made. Revenue is about keeping the game running. Which might result in a cash shop. How heavy - OK I assume you are thinking no company dividends to pay etc, - fair enough.
If its a "niche" game though that could mean more money on average per player needed - even if the game has a sub.
And if there are "investors" (i.e. not crowd source funding) then they will want, as a minimum, their investment back and probably a return on their investment as well. Money that will have to come from somewhere.
So you might be right but I don't think any chickens should be counted before the eggs are hatched.
What you're saying can be determined after Pantheon, CU & Crowfall come out.
imagine any one of them with the certainty of a proper budget.
I'm just happy the new wave of kickstarter game won't be cash shop heavy.
Hah!
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
What you're saying can be determined after Pantheon, CU & Crowfall come out.
imagine any one of them with the certainty of a proper budget.
I can and I imagine a CFO type with little to no programming knowledge nor interest in the game forcing decisions including the release of the game. They don't have the stones to see things through when the budget hits 8 figures.
The only thing other than capital that a publisher provides is financial oversight and that can be gotten without a publisher by hiring your own CFO type and listening to them. You don't need a huge conglomerate to properly manage a business.
When I think of recent US MMOs and how they failed they include things like Funsoft releasing AoC early without 2/3rd of their features, EA forcing WAR out with netcode they knew was bad, and NCSoft releasing Wildstar without allowing QC to finish their job. It's not as if the status quo has a history of success over the past 15 years.
To me cheering for publishers or venture capitalists reminds me of royalists, people that cheer for the house at blackjack, and bank lobbyists
What you're saying can be determined after Pantheon, CU & Crowfall come out.
imagine any one of them with the certainty of a proper budget.
I can and I imagine a CFO type with little to no programming knowledge nor interest in the game forcing decisions including the release of the game. They don't have the stones to see things through when the budget hits 8 figures.
The only thing other than capital that a publisher provides is financial oversight and that can be gotten without a publisher by hiring your own CFO type and listening to them. You don't need a huge conglomerate to properly manage a business.
When I think of recent US MMOs and how they failed they include things like Funsoft releasing AoC early without 2/3rd of their features, EA forcing WAR out with netcode they knew was bad, and NCSoft releasing Wildstar without allowing QC to finish their job. It's not as if the status quo has a history of success over the past 15 years.
To me cheering for publishers or venture capitalists reminds me of royalists, people that cheer for the house at blackjack, and bank lobbyists
Considering at least one project seems to be in a downward spiral of layoffs because they refused to take on any investors, and the rest of the crowdfunded endeavors have shown nothing close to a complete game yet, there's currently not a lot of evidence MMORPG devs can release a game without the pushback of a publisher.
What you're saying can be determined after Pantheon, CU & Crowfall come out.
imagine any one of them with the certainty of a proper budget.
It'd never leave imagination because no one would take a chance on MMO that isn't following current trends and of they did, you'd better believe that they'd have some orders opinions on how the game should be made.
What you're saying can be determined after Pantheon, CU & Crowfall come out.
imagine any one of them with the certainty of a proper budget.
I can and I imagine a CFO type with little to no programming knowledge nor interest in the game forcing decisions including the release of the game. They don't have the stones to see things through when the budget hits 8 figures.
The only thing other than capital that a publisher provides is financial oversight and that can be gotten without a publisher by hiring your own CFO type and listening to them. You don't need a huge conglomerate to properly manage a business.
When I think of recent US MMOs and how they failed they include things like Funsoft releasing AoC early without 2/3rd of their features, EA forcing WAR out with netcode they knew was bad, and NCSoft releasing Wildstar without allowing QC to finish their job. It's not as if the status quo has a history of success over the past 15 years.
To me cheering for publishers or venture capitalists reminds me of royalists, people that cheer for the house at blackjack, and bank lobbyists
Considering at least one project seems to be in a downward spiral of layoffs because they refused to take on any investors, and the rest of the crowdfunded endeavors have shown nothing close to a complete game yet, there's currently not a lot of evidence MMORPG devs can release a game without the pushback of a publisher.
Because some endeavours fail does not mean that the model is failed. You're cherry picking an anecdote --I'm not even sure which one-- and ignoring VC's relative success rate which has been terrible. Remember Dark and Light? SOE already canned all their projects and layed everyone off.
SOme companies are always going to be poorly managed. Pretending publisher's have a great record in developing MMO's is laughable nonetheless.
Ashes of Creation, Crowfall, Star Citizen, Shroud of the Avatar, Camelot Unchained, and Pantheon are the significant titles. Albion did launch on a significantly.
Claiming that crowdfunding is a failed development model is unfounded.
No. MMORPG production is a poor fit for any type of financing where investors or supporters want to see a fast return on their investment or patronage. Compared to other types of game development MMORPGs more closely resemble bespoke tailoring as opposed to something "off-the-rack."
However e.g. NCSoft with Carbine / Wildstar show that "big company" investment may not be the right fit either.
At least Wildstar launched...How many kickstarter MMOs have even reached that point?
Albion launched. Shroud of the Avatar is advertising a launch date in 2 months.
I think you lack perspective. Carbine started developing Wildstar's engine back in 2005 before they went with NCSoft for funding in 2007. It did not launch until 2014.
The posterchild for crowdfunding time to release complaints, Star Citizen, started in 2012. CU started the same year but the others are all more recent.
UO came out in 1997 starting the VC model MMO track record. That is over 20 years ago. WoW came out in 2004 and you can count the model's successes since then on one hand.
If crowdfunding is dead then publishers have decomposed completely.
What you're saying can be determined after Pantheon, CU & Crowfall come out.
imagine any one of them with the certainty of a proper budget.
I can and I imagine a CFO type with little to no programming knowledge nor interest in the game forcing decisions including the release of the game. They don't have the stones to see things through when the budget hits 8 figures.
The only thing other than capital that a publisher provides is financial oversight and that can be gotten without a publisher by hiring your own CFO type and listening to them. You don't need a huge conglomerate to properly manage a business.
When I think of recent US MMOs and how they failed they include things like Funsoft releasing AoC early without 2/3rd of their features, EA forcing WAR out with netcode they knew was bad, and NCSoft releasing Wildstar without allowing QC to finish their job. It's not as if the status quo has a history of success over the past 15 years.
To me cheering for publishers or venture capitalists reminds me of royalists, people that cheer for the house at blackjack, and bank lobbyists
Considering at least one project seems to be in a downward spiral of layoffs because they refused to take on any investors, and the rest of the crowdfunded endeavors have shown nothing close to a complete game yet, there's currently not a lot of evidence MMORPG devs can release a game without the pushback of a publisher.
Because some endeavours fail does not mean that the model is failed. You're cherry picking an anecdote --I'm not even sure which one-- and ignoring VC's relative success rate which has been terrible. Remember Dark and Light? SOE already canned all their projects and layed everyone off.
SOme companies are always going to be poorly managed. Pretending publisher's have a great record in developing MMO's is laughable nonetheless.
Ashes of Creation, Crowfall, Star Citizen, Shroud of the Avatar, Camelot Unchained, and Pantheon are the significant titles. Albion did launch on a significantly.
Claiming that crowdfunding is a failed development model is unfounded.
Good thing I didn't label it a failed development model. I said there's no evidence to be had that it is a good fit for MMORPGs, and the evidence quite frankly points towards it being a bad one. Greed Monger, Pathfinder, CoE, SotA to name a few that show evidence for my point. Name me one that's even close to releasing anything resembling a completed MMORPG that's been well-received by any stretch of the imagination.
Publishers aren't the devil. They're just not interested in pandering to us gamers. Sometimes, that leads them to make shitty moves. More often than that, they're the reason these games get made in the first place.
Comments
I would imagine that PA/Daum had their shit together compared to the average Indie as well, yeah.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
~~ postlarval ~~
In some cases it's down right cult like. I mean a developer recently referred to "spreading the gospel" of his game.
The negative to this is that it turns off most of the "non-believers"
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Here, you have (typically) inexperienced developers shooting for the moon (because you kinda have to get people excited) on mmo projects that are already insanely complicated, with highly distributed funding sources that can exert almost zero accountability on the developers.
In other words, give people money for a highly complicated project with which they have no risk, without any significant oversight, and it will most likely amount to nothing.
He hasn't actually put in that money in the project but he said that he would.
I got problems digging up the $10M investment so might have remembered wrong but here's one on the seed round they did in 2017 and a link to the one they did back in 2015.
Why don't they just do it again for a safe 890k? I mean that's only 10k which isn't that hard to raise. or put it to 899k and that's only 1k.
I've seen kickstarters "come close". But then that's the end of it. There must be something that's stopping them from doing that?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Unfortunately, you are far from being the first (and you are ceetainly not the last) victim of his wordsmithing.
KS is a great thing. Can name several games that did very well.
Darkest Dungeon
Pillars Of Eternity
Divinity Original Sin
Grim Dawn
Torment: Tides of Numenera
So the problem to me isn't KS. KS is a great platform for Developers and Gamers alike. I think the problem is some people are still chasing that MMORPG magic that has long gone. Fans and Developers, It's gone and it was amazing, but it's not coming back ever in any shape or form and we have to be okay with that as a community. We really have to move forward. Seriously.
How many of these types of games need to fail before we realize that the 1st golden age of MMORPG has come and gone? I'm not sure what the second golden age will be but it sure as hell will not be anything that resembles the first. The moment Developers realize that and start innovating again instead of trying to recapture what worked in the early 2000s, we will see real progress and rejuvenation in the genre.
My 2 cents.
Edit: My point is, the type of MMORPGS on KS currently want to capture that old magic. But for the next great "MMO" to "happen" it's going to require ditching "The Magic" of old MMOs and that we embrace innovation not shun it because it doesn't have "the magic". We have to allow the new magic to happen.
It may also happen under a whole different set of rules and we have to be open to that. It may be a console game that does it, maybe a mobile game. A lot of times "the magic" people talk about is just plain Nostalgia and that does very little for the future of MMORPGs. Who knows how good and what Mobile or Console MMO games will be like 10 years from now?
The next great MMORPG will for sure have its own magic about it, its own thing that makes it special, but most people here would miss it because they are so busy looking for the past.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
Funding is about getting the game made. Revenue is about keeping the game running. Which might result in a cash shop. How heavy - OK I assume you are thinking no company dividends to pay etc, - fair enough.
If its a "niche" game though that could mean more money on average per player needed - even if the game has a sub.
And if there are "investors" (i.e. not crowd source funding) then they will want, as a minimum, their investment back and probably a return on their investment as well. Money that will have to come from somewhere.
So you might be right but I don't think any chickens should be counted before the eggs are hatched.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
The only thing other than capital that a publisher provides is financial oversight and that can be gotten without a publisher by hiring your own CFO type and listening to them. You don't need a huge conglomerate to properly manage a business.
When I think of recent US MMOs and how they failed they include things like Funsoft releasing AoC early without 2/3rd of their features, EA forcing WAR out with netcode they knew was bad, and NCSoft releasing Wildstar without allowing QC to finish their job. It's not as if the status quo has a history of success over the past 15 years.
To me cheering for publishers or venture capitalists reminds me of royalists, people that cheer for the house at blackjack, and bank lobbyists
SOme companies are always going to be poorly managed. Pretending publisher's have a great record in developing MMO's is laughable nonetheless.
Ashes of Creation, Crowfall, Star Citizen, Shroud of the Avatar, Camelot Unchained, and Pantheon are the significant titles. Albion did launch on a significantly.
Claiming that crowdfunding is a failed development model is unfounded.
I think you lack perspective. Carbine started developing Wildstar's engine back in 2005 before they went with NCSoft for funding in 2007. It did not launch until 2014.
The posterchild for crowdfunding time to release complaints, Star Citizen, started in 2012. CU started the same year but the others are all more recent.
UO came out in 1997 starting the VC model MMO track record. That is over 20 years ago. WoW came out in 2004 and you can count the model's successes since then on one hand.
If crowdfunding is dead then publishers have decomposed completely.
Publishers aren't the devil. They're just not interested in pandering to us gamers. Sometimes, that leads them to make shitty moves. More often than that, they're the reason these games get made in the first place.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.