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Kickstarter keeps being a poor fit for mmorpg development
Shaigh
Member EpicPosts: 2,142
Its 5.5 years since the kickstarter craze first began with people hyping up games like Pathfinder Online, The Repopulation and Greed Monger. Since then we have had more higher budget games that has taken the kickstarter route asking for small sums of money to create complex games on a short time frame. To get extra money there are stretch goals which have proven to be very easy to promise and costly to actually develop.
What happened next was expected, delay happens with developer excuses followed by a frantic search for more funds to complete the game that sometimes reaches the absurd. If they don't get extra money the game that was promised ends at a dream with developers losing their job.
You need a large backer to make an MMORPG, Pantheon was dead in the water until they got an investor that put $10M into the project so they could pay their employees, MJ had to keep putting his own money into Camelot Unchained until he got a large investor to bankroll the game and crowfall also had the benefit of multiple large investor. Ashes of creation supposedly has $30M that can be used to fund the game so the kickstarter has nothing to do with actually funding the game.
Kickstarter is great for games with a limited scope, its been amazing for indie developers and we got a lot of games out of it, board game developers can pitch their ideas to the players immediately and can make games with limited circulation, a great thing for board game collectors. I can't say the same thing about MMORPG development.
What happened next was expected, delay happens with developer excuses followed by a frantic search for more funds to complete the game that sometimes reaches the absurd. If they don't get extra money the game that was promised ends at a dream with developers losing their job.
You need a large backer to make an MMORPG, Pantheon was dead in the water until they got an investor that put $10M into the project so they could pay their employees, MJ had to keep putting his own money into Camelot Unchained until he got a large investor to bankroll the game and crowfall also had the benefit of multiple large investor. Ashes of creation supposedly has $30M that can be used to fund the game so the kickstarter has nothing to do with actually funding the game.
Kickstarter is great for games with a limited scope, its been amazing for indie developers and we got a lot of games out of it, board game developers can pitch their ideas to the players immediately and can make games with limited circulation, a great thing for board game collectors. I can't say the same thing about MMORPG development.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
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An mmoprg is to be large and anything else is unacceptable, yet they have the nuts to make simple games on line.
And look at the mobile game market. Games are making million in a day. That is the reality we are living in. Why would company spend so much making mmorpg when cheaper and smaller budget games make more money.
I said back then there is no way I could see a MMORPG worth a damn being made for less than $10 to 20M, and some people told me I was wrong.
Which I was, turns out the figure is more like $20 to 30M, seeing recent investment events with CU, Crowfall, Ashes, SotA and some others previously. (Star Citizen people?)
So when Caspian says he'll press forward without investors and build "the most amazing game ever" on what he's raising through KSer and continuing crowd funding alone, all I can do is laugh and say, not unless he plans to start selling spaceships.
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Kickstarter is pretty much free development budget. It is easier to ask a publisher for 10 million to finish a game instead of 20 million before you have anything.
It is true some of this company probably already have a backer, but having free funds means they won't need to risk their own money and it encourage them to make the game because less risk is put upon them.
The second is that people invest in kickstarters because the like the 'idea'.. the problem is the 'idea' doesn't matter and it's a terrible metric to invest off of. What they should invest off of is the companies ability to deliver, that is the flaw with kickstarters. Everybody has an idea, everybody has the next big idea, the next WoW, ground breaking etc.. it doesn't matter what the idea is. The investment should be if they have the ability to deliver or not.. you don't see people on kickstarter talking about their resume or history building MMORPGs.
So that $11M mentioned is roughly $23M or so if made in the US so my estimates are correct.
Also, BDO has cut some corners in making their game, such as not much spent on dungeon or high end raiding content, so I still think $30M is a reasonable guestimate to make a full featured MMORPG stateside.
It can certainly cost much more of course, see Star Citizen.
Also, I believe Daum was operating at a much higher efficiency than a indie dev just getting started.
An "assumption" I make when factoring in the "cost" of new hiring in terms of efficiency is to value them at a (-20%) efficiency rate as they drag down the productivity of whoever trains them. I increase it to (-10%) the 2nd month, zero the third and somewhere between the 6th and 9th month post hire rate them at 100% depending on how good they are.
Contracting firms hate me as they tell my management their employees (who are often a year or two out of school) are at 100% in 2 or 3 weeks.
Ha! I've yet to be proven wrong....unfortunately I've learned senior management hates it when they are proven to be.....so I can't gloat about it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As for KS for a video game it's almost always laughable in my opinion. And has been confirmed over and over again as the devs never get to the point of having something to show, funnel money into other games, utterly fail at handing out promised rewards, insult their own fan base, and similar.
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You can't make a game on a whim,on a whim budget and no idea what kind of resources you will have.So KS is a design for complete failure UNLESS the actual amount attained to go green light is the exact amount you need in total with a buffer to allow for problems that may arise.
Before you see my last few words try to think about the REAL problem with the gaming industry.It is not KS ,it is not Crowd funding,it is a complete lack of care for gaming,the entire industry right now is nothing more than a marketing business.
Slapshot mentions a very real fact but not just in KS'rs in ALL games,the majority of sales are right away,early access or whatever,so this is why anyone with any common sense knows there is VERY little happening after that initial money grab,whatever they tell you for long term and lot's of improvements coming is total bullshit.
Well unless of course we consider what SC is doing and that is raping gamer's of multiple millions to tel us about some new lines of code they added each week.FIRST you have COMPLETE...FINISH a game,then we can talk about long term and what is coming down the pipeline.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Also, it seems that a big part of "new mmorpg game release" is the game actually being finished. It's not really pertient to a discussion about why new mmorpg games are not being made because new mmorpg's can't seem to be completed.
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I looked on Google for Pantheon 10 million investors and only found some information regarding the setting up their own system for people to donate money. Apparently, they have gotten enough money through this method to progress a lot on the game. It sounds a lot like kickstarter, but their own version of it.
I understand many mobile game spend large amount of money on advertisement but they can do it because they are racking in cash flow. If you are making large sums of money you'll spend a high portion of the money marketing. It is a chicken and egg problem. They can spend millions on advertisement because they are racking in millions by the day or week.
It's the developers using kickstarter.
They are either new to game development (or not much experience) and really have no idea what it's going to take as well as "risk takers" who truly believe that once they get going people will see the merit and give them more money or established developers who don't really plan for what their kickstarter should be (Pantheon) are riding on their coat tails (Shroud of the Avatar, Hero's Song) and are a little out of touch with what the expectations are.
They also seem to be shy about asking for the "right amount of money". I don't know what the kickstarter rules are if one's project doesn't fund successfully so that could be a part of it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
However e.g. NCSoft with Carbine / Wildstar show that "big company" investment may not be the right fit either.
Of course a lot comes down to the scope of the game. A few hours content vs. dozens of hours. That is true of any platform though.