@Slapshot1188 - how much crowdfunding projects are there, which do refunds? It´s in the nature of crowdfunding (and it´s still a sort of), that there are risks involved. You can´t blame the studio for you not realising this.
Again. The only reason not to offer refunds is if you think people will use them. If the 16,000 backers are all happy then there is no risk. The Ivory Tower has stated that the 16,000 backers are happy.
Also, you must not look outside of CoE much... both CU and AoC offer refunds.
People also pledged knowing there was a no refund policy in place, so it was a risk they apparently were willing to take. If they didn't know or weren't willing to take the risk without a refund policy then they should have done more research before pledging.
That responsibility is on the Pledgers, not SBS.
I agree, I think harbinger's point though is that offering refunds gives a project a sense of credibility and indicates that the developers have a lot of confidence in their ability to deliver.
From reading a lot of his posts I gather this is one of the metrics he uses to judge a crowdfunded project; as such he seems to rank this as one of the main negatives about CoE when compared to other crowdfunded games.
Sorry who is harbinger ? I looked at the poster's name and could not find that name. Or is that Slap's nick?
The developer of CoE dubbed us Harbingers, said it wouldn’t look good for him to come do it himself, but asked his followers to come “shut down” skeptics like me.
So some of us have embraced the name, as a harbinger is an omen or prophet of what is to come.
Massivelyop did an article on it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
@Slapshot1188 - how much crowdfunding projects are there, which do refunds? It´s in the nature of crowdfunding (and it´s still a sort of), that there are risks involved. You can´t blame the studio for you not realising this.
Again. The only reason not to offer refunds is if you think people will use them. If the 16,000 backers are all happy then there is no risk. The Ivory Tower has stated that the 16,000 backers are happy.
Also, you must not look outside of CoE much... both CU and AoC offer refunds.
People also pledged knowing there was a no refund policy in place, so it was a risk they apparently were willing to take. If they didn't know or weren't willing to take the risk without a refund policy then they should have done more research before pledging.
That responsibility is on the Pledgers, not SBS.
I agree, I think harbinger's point though is that offering refunds gives a project a sense of credibility and indicates that the developers have a lot of confidence in their ability to deliver.
From reading a lot of his posts I gather this is one of the metrics he uses to judge a crowdfunded project; as such he seems to rank this as one of the main negatives about CoE when compared to other crowdfunded games.
Much of what you say is true. Beyond that though... I think it should be a given that if a project undergoes a major change ( delay of a year, change in scope, change in tech) that people who paid money under the original promise be given the option of a refund. What they paid for is no longer being delivered. In this case there have been multiple instances of people claiming the only reason they thought this project was remotely possible was the promise of SpatialOS. SpatialOS was used in PR releases and mentioned frequently by the developer. It was positioned as a selling point.
There are two distinct things here and the Ivory Tower tends to mix them:
The first is that a company posts a product with times and deliverables and describes the contents (fabric) They post a no refund policy. A consumer buys a package based on that. The company does not significantly change what they sold or the delivery time. In this case I do not see any justification for a refund (although I think in general having one is simply a sign of confidence in your product)
The second is that a company posts a product with times and deliverables and describes the contents (fabric). They also post a no refund policy. A consumer buys a package based on that. The company significantly changes the delivery time (by years) and also changes the “fabric” the game will be built on and one advertised as making it all possible. In this case they have IMHO veered significantly away from the original agreement. The product has significantly changed in time as well as its foundation. In this case I see a refund or chargeback as clearly justified. I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know if that’s legally required but simply from a moral point of view it seems if one party significantly changes terms of a deal the other should be able to say no.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Sorry who is harbinger ? I looked at the poster's name and could not find that name. Or is that Slap's nick?
The developer of CoE dubbed us Harbingers, said it wouldn’t look good for him to come do it himself, but asked his followers to come “shut down” skeptics like me.
So some of us have embraced the name, as a harbinger is an omen or prophet of what is to come.
Massivelyop did an article on it.
A sceptic not only is sceptic about others, but also about himself. Sceptic about intentions and if the right conclusions are made or even can be seriously made. A sceptic would not be light on making statements, as a sceptic would know how unlikely truth can be percieved. A sceptic would not spend so much effort to influence the perception of a thing by colorised "claimed" facts, even less based on vague rigid conclusions.
"Harbinger of Truth" x) yea, as if.
So, given the facts, as everyone can look up in the CoE related forums here, your posts mostly got these colorised facts with discrediting flavor, i wouldn´t judge anyone asking for help to point at such sabbotage. That´s what it is.
I can´t see how you are allowed to moderate and lead all post about CoE here. Pretty shady in itself.
Sorry who is harbinger ? I looked at the poster's name and could not find that name. Or is that Slap's nick?
The developer of CoE dubbed us Harbingers, said it wouldn’t look good for him to come do it himself, but asked his followers to come “shut down” skeptics like me.
So some of us have embraced the name, as a harbinger is an omen or prophet of what is to come.
Massivelyop did an article on it.
A sceptic not only is sceptic about others, but also about himself. Sceptic about intentions and if the right conclusions are made or even can be seriously made. A sceptic would not be light on making statements, as a sceptic would know how unlikely truth can be recieved. A sceptic would not spend so much effort to influence the perception of a thing by colorised "claimed" facts, even less based on vague rigid conclusions.
"Harbinger of Truth" x) yea, as if.
So, given the facts, as everyone can look up in the CoE related forums here, your posts mostly got these colorised facts with discrediting flavor, i wouldn´t judge anyone asking for help to point at such sabbotage. That´s what it is.
I can´t see how you are allowed to moderate and lead all post about CoE here. Pretty shady in itself.
Sorry who is harbinger ? I looked at the poster's name and could not find that name. Or is that Slap's nick?
The developer of CoE dubbed us Harbingers, said it wouldn’t look good for him to come do it himself, but asked his followers to come “shut down” skeptics like me.
So some of us have embraced the name, as a harbinger is an omen or prophet of what is to come.
Massivelyop did an article on it.
A sceptic not only is sceptic about others, but also about himself. Sceptic about intentions and if the right conclusions are made or even can be seriously made. A sceptic would not be light on making statements, as a sceptic would know how unlikely truth can be recieved. A sceptic would not spend so much effort to influence the perception of a thing by colorised "claimed" facts, even less based on vague rigid conclusions.
"Harbinger of Truth" x) yea, as if.
So, given the facts, as everyone can look up in the CoE related forums here, your posts mostly got these colorised facts with discrediting flavor, i wouldn´t judge anyone asking for help to point at such sabbotage. That´s what it is.
I can´t see how you are allowed to moderate and lead all post about CoE here. Pretty shady in itself.
Sorry who is harbinger ? I looked at the poster's name and could not find that name. Or is that Slap's nick?
The developer of CoE dubbed us Harbingers, said it wouldn’t look good for him to come do it himself, but asked his followers to come “shut down” skeptics like me.
So some of us have embraced the name, as a harbinger is an omen or prophet of what is to come.
Massivelyop did an article on it.
A sceptic not only is sceptic about others, but also about himself. Sceptic about intentions and if the right conclusions are made or even can be seriously made. A sceptic would not be light on making statements, as a sceptic would know how unlikely truth can be recieved. A sceptic would not spend so much effort to influence the perception of a thing by colorised "claimed" facts, even less based on vague rigid conclusions.
"Harbinger of Truth" x) yea, as if.
So, given the facts, as everyone can look up in the CoE related forums here, your posts mostly got these colorised facts with discrediting flavor, i wouldn´t judge anyone asking for help to point at such sabbotage. That´s what it is.
I can´t see how you are allowed to moderate and lead all post about CoE here. Pretty shady in itself.
@Slapshot1188 - how much crowdfunding projects are there, which do refunds? It´s in the nature of crowdfunding (and it´s still a sort of), that there are risks involved. You can´t blame the studio for you not realising this.
Again. The only reason not to offer refunds is if you think people will use them. If the 16,000 backers are all happy then there is no risk. The Ivory Tower has stated that the 16,000 backers are happy.
Also, you must not look outside of CoE much... both CU and AoC offer refunds.
People also pledged knowing there was a no refund policy in place, so it was a risk they apparently were willing to take. If they didn't know or weren't willing to take the risk without a refund policy then they should have done more research before pledging.
That responsibility is on the Pledgers, not SBS.
I agree, I think harbinger's point though is that offering refunds gives a project a sense of credibility and indicates that the developers have a lot of confidence in their ability to deliver.
From reading a lot of his posts I gather this is one of the metrics he uses to judge a crowdfunded project; as such he seems to rank this as one of the main negatives about CoE when compared to other crowdfunded games.
What about there might be more to a refund-policy than good will and confidence? To economicaly reasonable grant a refund policy you not only need a certain buffer of capital to minimise financial risks, but you also have to plan and spend on effort for realisation. This often are topics publishers or at least the economists in a team do.
So, back to the small SBS studio with a more nerdy artist and developer focus cast compared to the Intrepid team lineup, which seems to me more like the neatly educated standard development team following the trained scheme which brings us these MMOs i consider merely distinguishable.
Tho, ofc - let´s call them - "neat developers" will have unquestionable their advantages especially in terms of public relations advertisement, account-management, financial regards and generally meta- and economic-stuff. That can help a lot of course, and gives securities for the development and supporters. Just, i don´t back a project because i want them to manage their crap well, in the first place. I want a truely innovative game, a daring project and a soulful piece of art - made with passion! Not just a mere "product"..
So my vote goes to the nerdy, authentic team that i consider my best bet, to get this. And they don´t need to be the best managers or neat economists, and they might struggle more with some particular challanges in that regards as the neat ones, but also will master other struggles. Back from my digression.
Thus, with the capital buffer in mind, the lack of a refund policy is no sufficient argument to question a projects credibility, imo!
So my vote goes to the nerdy, authentic team that i consider my best bet, to get this. And they don´t need to be the best managers or neat economists, and they might struggle more with some particular challanges in that regards as the neat ones, but also will master other struggles. Back from my digression.
So basically, they're just role-playing the capability to do this thing. That's what we've been saying all along.
Can you link that one? I'm interested in that. Lest I end up like poor old Marley... and Marley.
“That – is what I refer to as a Harbinger. Someone who, for whatever
reason, intentionally or unintentionally is sewing seeds of doubt,
mistrust, and skepticism in others. Doing so doesn’t benefit anyone,
least of all those of us who are here working hard to make this game –
both developers and the community.”
“So what I was discussing on Discord the other day was for you guys,
the community, to shut down such behavior. We can’t be everywhere at
once, nor does it look good for us to try and discourage such behavior.
But we can encourage you guys to shut down such behavior.”
This is what was requested by JW of their community. So, its not really a surprise when they're dubbed the "Ivory Tower" (and dismissed as such) since anyone who is skeptical or has questions about the game's development before donating is considered a "Harbinger".
Can you link that one? I'm interested in that. Lest I end up like poor old Marley... and Marley.
“That – is what I refer to as a Harbinger. Someone who, for whatever
reason, intentionally or unintentionally is sewing seeds of doubt,
mistrust, and skepticism in others. Doing so doesn’t benefit anyone,
least of all those of us who are here working hard to make this game –
both developers and the community.”
“So what I was discussing on Discord the other day was for you guys,
the community, to shut down such behavior. We can’t be everywhere at
once, nor does it look good for us to try and discourage such behavior.
But we can encourage you guys to shut down such behavior.”
This is what was requested by JW of their community. So, its not really a surprise when they're dubbed the "Ivory Tower" (and dismissed as such) since anyone who is skeptical or has questions about the game's development before donating is considered a "Harbinger".
There is nothing against scepticism. What this quotes are referring to is a quite engaged, obviously malitious private or ordered "campaign" to activly discredit SBS, CoE, it´s community and everyone criticising this behaviour. That is no scepticism.
A sceptic not only is sceptic about others, but also about himself. Sceptic about intentions and if the right conclusions are made or even can be seriously made. A sceptic would not be light on making statements, as a sceptic would know how unlikely truth can be percieved. A sceptic would not spend so much effort to influence the perception of a thing by colorised "claimed" facts, even less based on vague rigid conclusions.
...
So, given the facts, as everyone can look up in the CoE related forums here, your posts mostly got these colorised facts with discrediting flavor, i wouldn´t judge anyone asking for help to point at such sabbotage. That´s what it is.
I can´t see how you are allowed to moderate and lead all post about CoE here. Pretty shady in itself.
Wasn´t the topic of this post to point out an imaginary delay of the SoE, hence, again, discrediting? And to make it even more visibile to everyone you used your "moderation" to close another neutral post who was not willing to serve your post, wasn´t it?
So, State of Elyria you might mean. What were you guys most excited about in that report?
Wasn´t the topic of this post to point out an imaginary delay of the SoE, hence, again, discrediting? And to make it even more visibile to everyone you used your "moderation" to close another neutral post who was not willing to serve your post, wasn´t it?
So, State of Elyria you might mean. What were you guys most excited about in that report?
That question has already been answered multiple times here. Everyone's excited that they ditched SpatialOS. As stated earlier by several people, that was the only really news worthy thing of the State of Elyria write-up. Everything else was just vague promises.
The report is about what have been done, what is worked on and what will be worked on. They gave an example map of the continent, showed some screenshots of their work the biomes and tribes, informed about the planned composition of tribes in the kingdoms, released an estimated roadmap for the next month to come, showed some bits of the work on voxElyria,..
The report is about what have been done, what is worked on and what will be worked on. They gave an example map of the continent, showed some screenshots of their work the biomes and tribes, informed about the planned composition of tribes in the kingdoms, released an estimated roadmap for the next month to come, showed some bits of the work on voxElyria,..
Yep. Promises.
All of that stuff is just promises and fluff with no dates.
The only real tangible news was losing SpatialOS. Thus that's the only thing most people are "most excited" about in there.
Comments
*lol* at Slapshot having the other thread closed.
Like this one. Pointless and adds nothing but no need for a mod to point that out.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
From reading a lot of his posts I gather this is one of the metrics he uses to judge a crowdfunded project; as such he seems to rank this as one of the main negatives about CoE when compared to other crowdfunded games.
So some of us have embraced the name, as a harbinger is an omen or prophet of what is to come.
Massivelyop did an article on it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'm interested in that.
Lest I end up like poor old Marley... and Marley.
Much of what you say is true. Beyond that though... I think it should be a given that if a project undergoes a major change ( delay of a year, change in scope, change in tech) that people who paid money under the original promise be given the option of a refund. What they paid for is no longer being delivered. In this case there have been multiple instances of people claiming the only reason they thought this project was remotely possible was the promise of SpatialOS. SpatialOS was used in PR releases and mentioned frequently by the developer. It was positioned as a selling point.
There are two distinct things here and the Ivory Tower tends to mix them:
The first is that a company posts a product with times and deliverables and describes the contents (fabric) They post a no refund policy. A consumer buys a package based on that. The company does not significantly change what they sold or the delivery time. In this case I do not see any justification for a refund (although I think in general having one is simply a sign of confidence in your product)
The second is that a company posts a product with times and deliverables and describes the contents (fabric). They also post a no refund policy. A consumer buys a package based on that. The company significantly changes the delivery time (by years) and also changes the “fabric” the game will be built on and one advertised as making it all possible. In this case they have IMHO veered significantly away from the original agreement. The product has significantly changed in time as well as its foundation. In this case I see a refund or chargeback as clearly justified. I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know if that’s legally required but simply from a moral point of view it seems if one party significantly changes terms of a deal the other should be able to say no.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
A sceptic would not be light on making statements, as a sceptic would know how unlikely truth can be percieved.
A sceptic would not spend so much effort to influence the perception of a thing by colorised "claimed" facts, even less based on vague rigid conclusions.
"Harbinger of Truth" x) yea, as if.
So, given the facts, as everyone can look up in the CoE related forums here, your posts mostly got these colorised facts with discrediting flavor, i wouldn´t judge anyone asking for help to point at such sabbotage. That´s what it is.
I can´t see how you are allowed to moderate and lead all post about CoE here.
Pretty shady in itself.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Just visit the site and search for Harbinger
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So, back to the small SBS studio with a more nerdy artist and developer focus cast compared to the Intrepid team lineup, which seems to me more like the neatly educated standard development team following the trained scheme which brings us these MMOs i consider merely distinguishable.
Tho, ofc - let´s call them - "neat developers" will have unquestionable their advantages especially in terms of public relations advertisement, account-management, financial regards and generally meta- and economic-stuff.
That can help a lot of course, and gives securities for the development and supporters. Just, i don´t back a project because i want them to manage their crap well, in the first place.
I want a truely innovative game, a daring project and a soulful piece of art - made with passion! Not just a mere "product"..
So my vote goes to the nerdy, authentic team that i consider my best bet, to get this. And they don´t need to be the best managers or neat economists, and they might struggle more with some particular challanges in that regards as the neat ones, but also will master other struggles. Back from my digression.
Thus, with the capital buffer in mind, the lack of a refund policy is no sufficient argument to question a projects credibility, imo!
This is what was requested by JW of their community. So, its not really a surprise when they're dubbed the "Ivory Tower" (and dismissed as such) since anyone who is skeptical or has questions about the game's development before donating is considered a "Harbinger".
I like to repeat myself here:
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So, State of Elyria you might mean.
What were you guys most excited about in that report?
What do you mean by vague promises?
The report is about what have been done, what is worked on and what will be worked on. They gave an example map of the continent, showed some screenshots of their work the biomes and tribes, informed about the planned composition of tribes in the kingdoms, released an estimated roadmap for the next month to come, showed some bits of the work on voxElyria,..
What have you been expected?
All of that stuff is just promises and fluff with no dates.
The only real tangible news was losing SpatialOS. Thus that's the only thing most people are "most excited" about in there.