How many games advertise themselves with the information that you MIGHT gain access to the alpha or beta? Typically access to an alpha or beta is sold as an enticement to get people paying for a product sooner than they might otherwise do so.
Please read this carefully.. @Orinori You knew exactly what I meant by "Business" but since you seem to have trouble let me help you out.
When I say "Business" I mean a sale of a product was made.
Still does not negate anything, you are backward because you really believe that CIG offering their "Alpha" state Game for money is a privilege when it's not.
People don't care about Alpha tests lets be clear. Developers do. Publishers do. Most people would have been happy playing the final game on launch. CIG didn't give away its Alpha test.. it sold and is currently selling it. Which means they offered their Product, so people bought it. Finished or not.
So frankly, Wth are you talking about? It's not a privilege to play the alpha of a game you paid for the access to. People actually paid for the SC Alpha.
What don't you get? You work for your money. You spend your money on products. Simple.
Buying Food from a Restaurant (Business) isn't a privilege in any way. They offered the food (Product) in exchange for your money.
Buying a car from a Dealership (Business) isn't a privilege in any way. They offered the Car (Product) in exchange for your money.
Buying a Game from CIG (Company) isn't a privilege in any way. I don't care if its Alpha or Final state. They offered a game, Star Citizen Alpha (Product) in exchange for your money.
So because you have exchanged money for this service/product.. by no means in any shape or form is it a Privilege. It's a product you purchased. Unfinished or Not. It does not matter how many ways they write it in a TOS.
Also just because it's in a contract (TOS in this case) does not mean its right.
(I don't know that CIG stated in the TOS that the game isn't a product, But I doubt it because it makes no sense but I digress)
The bottom line is it is, in fact, a Product. CIG (Business) is selling SC Alpha (Product)
Why is this so hard for you?
-Klash Guy
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Last poster gets it and anyone around 10+ years ago should remember ,we don't pay to play any Alpha's.
I love how not just SC but most games/devs think it is a privilege to pay up front lmao,NO it's a privilege to the developer to get money without having a game.
Can you imagine,to put it in perspective,walk into a restaurant,order some food,pay for it,then the waitress says...."Well your food might come and it might not,you should feel privileged to watch us cook it though".On things that are sort of SUSPECT,like ordering food,you get to taste it,eat it,see it before paying. I have seen MANY suspect games with these early access,like 99.9% of them.Let's look at some that made a lot of money..H1Z1...that is just sigh and to think i paid 30 bucks to get into that crap.I'll put it in perspective again,i paid 15 bucks for ALL of FFXI,like idk around 6-9 expansions,30 bucks for H1Z1 which had ONE MAP,ONE model ...again sigh,disgusting.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
CIG offering their "Alpha" state Game for money is a privilege when it's not.
Why is this so hard for you?
-Klash Guy
Because I have studied Law. I understand words. I understand what the word privilege means, I understand the context I wrote it in. You are free to be ignorant. Emotional incorrect essays don't change facts.
(the one about the car was my favorite by the way, even to drive it home would be a privilege granted!)
If (big IF) they deliver on the game promised in 5-10 years great.. but based on the development so far, more than likely it's going to be a shell of what was promised which is still fine to be excited about but let's be for real.
Some people here need to stop worshipping CIG and stop drinking their Kool-Aid.
They really have people thinking its an Honor and Privilege to be able to play their half-baked Alpha state of a game. smh.
really they are robbing you by charging you to be the QA when they should really be paying you since you know.. that's an actual job.
CIG like any business capitalizes on their fanbase who literally can't wait for the game (Product) by showing them one thing, then selling them another thing (SC Alpha Product) that's not quite the original thing (SC) offered.
They already made most of the money they are going to make.. so yea they can tell you guys anything they want for the next 20 years and some of you will sip the kool-aid.
Whether or not its supposed to be finished or not isn't the point. The point is they are selling you something so you as a customer have the right to complain about it.
If it was a free Alpha test then.. no, I don't think complaining is Valid at that point but be real. It's not free.
CIG isn't above complaints. Stop that. They sold a product, so get the fuck outta here with all that nonsense. If people want to complain let them. Stop being so butthurt for CIG. They don't need your moral support trust me they won't lose any sleep. I'm sure they sleep REALLY well at night, knowing they are getting away with robbery. I don't know any of them personally but I can tell someone over there doesn't have any integrity. But that's another conversation. Money does things to people you wouldn't believe.
I guess for some people those monthly/weekly whatever it is videos they drop just to say in a nutshell, "hey we are still working on the thing we promised" is enough for some to act like white knights.
Hey, knock yourself out. Just don't expect everyone else to start punching themselves in the face because you do it. Most people won't actually.
I'm not knocking anyone excited about SC.. but the people who act like everybody who has a complaint about SC must be crazy, or need to be more grateful for the opportunity/Privilege to play the alpha (that they payed for) need to stop being so thirsty and sit down somewhere.
But hey what do I know, I'm just a guy trying to keep his lights on.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
I love how not just SC but most games/devs think it is a privilege to pay up front lmao,NO it's a privilege to the developer to get money without having a game.
It's isn't really clear in either of these instances.
If (big IF) they deliver on the game promised in 5-10 years great.. but based on the development so far, more than likely it's going to be a shell of what was promised which is still fine to be excited about but let's be for real.
Some people here need to stop worshipping CIG and stop drinking their Kool-Aid.
They really have people thinking its an Honor and Privilege to be able to play their half-baked Alpha state of a game. smh.
really they are robbing you by charging you to be the QA when they should really be paying you since you know.. that's an actual job.
CIG like any business capitalizes on their fanbase who literally can't wait for the game (Product) by showing them one thing, then selling them another thing (SC Alpha Product) that's not quite the original thing (SC) offered.
They already made most of the money they are going to make.. so yea they can tell you guys anything they want for the next 20 years and some of you will sip the kool-aid.
Whether or not its supposed to be finished or not isn't the point. The point is they are selling you something so you as a customer have the right to complain about it.
If it was a free Alpha test then.. no, I don't think complaining is Valid at that point but be real. It's not free.
CIG isn't above complaints. Stop that. They sold a product, so get the fuck outta here with all that nonsense. If people want to complain let them. Stop being so butthurt for CIG. They don't need your moral support trust me they won't lose any sleep. I'm sure they sleep REALLY well at night, knowing they are getting away with robbery. I don't know any of them personally but I can tell someone over there doesn't have any integrity. But that's another conversation. Money does things to people you wouldn't believe.
I guess for some people those monthly/weekly whatever it is videos they drop just to say in a nutshell, "hey we are still working on the thing we promised" is enough for some to act like white knights.
Hey, knock yourself out. Just don't expect everyone else to start punching themselves in the face because you do it. Most people won't actually.
I'm not knocking anyone excited about SC.. but the people who act like everybody who has a complaint about SC must be crazy, or need to be more grateful for the opportunity/Privilege to play the alpha (that they payed for) need to stop being so thirsty and sit down somewhere.
But hey what do I know, I'm just a guy trying to keep his lights on.
can't even get through this stuff anymore. More emotional ranting to try and educate me on the word privilege. I asked you to learn, I guess it was easier to write 3 full pages of essays instead.
CIG offering their "Alpha" state Game for money is a privilege when it's not.
Why is this so hard for you?
-Klash Guy
Because I have studied Law. I understand words. I understand what the word privilege means, I understand the context I wrote it in. You are free to be ignorant. Emotional incorrect essays don't change facts.
(the one about the car was my favorite by the way, even to drive it home would be a privilege granted!)
You have got to be the most pretentious person on this site. It's sad that you really believe you are smart. I watch how you always talk down to people as if you really believe you are smarter than everyone but surprise you are not. Not even close. But let's unpack it.
I'm trying not to laugh at you.
Oh, Are you a Lawyer? What type? Did you actually pass the Bar Exam? What year? What state do you practice in? Talk to me about it without using google.. tell me something I cant google myself. Usually when people say "I have studied" subject x.. it means they don't have a degree in that, they just read about it so they think they know it. Or they are just throwing it out to win an argument they are losing. Sort of like when people realize nobody cares who they are and they say "Do you know who I am!?" smh
*whispers btw*
None of that matters. Its the internet. You can say anything you want. I don't care if you are a lawyer, a plumber or fisherman, anyone who does not understand how simple transactions work cant be very bright.
Regardless, let's not get off topic, I see you are trying to derail because you cant answer properly, mainly because I'm right, but I'll entertain it.
Please explain to me, Cogently how CIG selling the Alpha State of SC isn't them selling a product.
If SC Alpha isn't a product then what the hell is it?
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
@Orinori I'm not about to go back and forth with you anymore about this.
What I wrote is easy to understand and true.
You don't have to believe it. You like to throw around words like "ignorance" and say stupid shit like "I Told you to go learn" when really it's you who is in need of learning so you can stop being ignorant.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Please explain to me, Cogently how CIG selling the Alpha State of SC isn't them selling a product.
If SC Alpha isn't a product then what the hell is it?
I have never mentioned anything about it being a product or not. I simply stated "alpha access is a privilege granted by the developer and whether you pay them or they pay you for that privilege is irrelevant"
More ranting essays with insults, thank you. I find it difficult to blame myself if you are unable to follow simple instructions.
I am going to sleep now, perhaps you will take the time to educate yourself instead of looking to blame others for your own failings. Goodnight.
klash2def said: No. Buying access to a game, alpha, beta, or final isn't a privilege. It's called Business.
They sold you a product bottom line.
hmmmmmm
Not so fast. In fact, many times this is put as: - You buy X game. - As an extra to it, depending many times on the "package", you might gain access to the beta and/or alpha stage of such product.
Now let's argue that the product is not the final game, what is actually being sold, but one of the perks of it: the early access?
I DO see your point (have experienced beta access before never alpha) but I would argue that the SC alpha, SC Beta, SC Final Game are all different products from the same family. SC didn't sell a full game and say "SUPRISE YOU GET ACCESS TO BETA YAYY!!" That in a way could be considered a privilege.
That's not what happened. They sold the Alpha outright and directly like it was a finished product even though its still in development. Say its money for development whatever.. the fact remains they sold a product. I look at bottom lines. That's the bottom line of that situation.
The point is anything you purchase with money has to be looked at as a Service or Product. Not a privilege and that's my only point.
It's like saying putting food in your Fridge is a Privilege. Like you didn't work hard for your money and CHOOSE to exchange it at your supermarket for food. It wasn't free. You worked for it. The store offered it for sale and you made a purchase.
CIG offered SC Alpha and people purchased it. That makes it a paid Service/Product there is no way around it.
Calling a paid service or product a "privilege" is an insult to the consumer and no smart business would say that. Only SC White Knights it seems. CIG wouldn't even say that.
At least not publicly. I think.
I hope.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Please explain to me, Cogently how CIG selling the Alpha State of SC isn't them selling a product.
If SC Alpha isn't a product then what the hell is it?
I have never mentioned anything about it being a product or not. I simply stated "alpha access is a privilege granted by the developer and whether you pay them or they pay you for that privilege is irrelevant"
More ranting essays with insults, thank you. I find it difficult to blame myself if you are unable to follow simple instructions.
I am going to sleep now, perhaps you will take the time to educate yourself instead of looking to blame others for your own failings. Goodnight.
Oh really? You never mentioned anything about it being a product or not? Even though that's what the entire conversation was about? You really aren't that bright. I'm sad for you but i will try to help if I can.
You think you can change the narrative and run away because you lost? No sir. Hold this L. Take it to bed with you.
I quoted you by copying and pasting your response to another poster about me that way there is no way you can deny it or try to edit it to fit your narrative. I will also repost the response I got this quote from where you did exactly what you just said you didn't. It will be after this post.
"There is no artificial exclusiveness, he literally says "Purchasing a service or item is not a privilege" as a direct response to my post saying IT IS." -Orinori
I hate when people lie. Go to sleep. Please.
Edit: Edit
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
But all this is business and an attempt to create artificial exclusiveness and does not negate any of the stuff @klash2def mentioned.
"Purchasing a service or item is not a privilege its called Business." -klash guy
I skimmed the rest of your post. this seemed to be your closer (your quote at top)......wrong. There is no artificial exclusiveness, he literally says "Purchasing a service or item is not a privilege" as a direct response to my post saying IT IS.
"The seller may not revoke the offer to a single person without any reasons."
Wrong, this is a condition and would only apply as a condition after acceptance, it may be revoked any time prior, what you mean to talk about here is a promise, not an offer. You can also revoke a service (that was offered to you as a privilege) at any time you wish, it is not some natural or divine right! Potential compensations and claims are a separate matter.
Are we all done with this nonsense yet? or Am i just giving out free lessons on the meaning of the word privilege in all its various contexts all night?
Said it here too. Just in case you wake up and have amnesia.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Purchasing a service or item is not a privilege its called Business.
incorrect, try again. learn the meaning of words and the law. even to be offered an item to own is a privilege and can be revoked before accepted (never even mind the service which is even more obvious). but like i said, i am done with this, its crazy, you wrote an entire essay without having any clue as to what you are talking about.
Here's where you said it. You still think you are smart, don't you? You should reevaluate that, and stop talking down towards people. You aren't who you think you are.
Okay, I will stop now. I think that's enough. lol
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Please explain to me, Cogently how CIG selling the Alpha State of SC isn't them selling a product.
If SC Alpha isn't a product then what the hell is it?
I have never mentioned anything about it being a product or not. I simply stated "alpha access is a privilege granted by the developer and whether you pay them or they pay you for that privilege is irrelevant"
More ranting essays with insults, thank you. I find it difficult to blame myself if you are unable to follow simple instructions.
I am going to sleep now, perhaps you will take the time to educate yourself instead of looking to blame others for your own failings. Goodnight.
Now I see...
When you think you can't "win" the real point (SC is a product being sold), you try to pretend its about something you think you can argue (the legal definition of the word privilege).
Seems like "winning" is more important to you than open-minded discussion.
Outside a court (ie here), the colloquial understanding of privilege is different. Look it up if you like. I don't assume or argue legal definitions because I'm not a lawyer. Take that to a legal forum where people are.
If you're going to change the context to legal language, you should state that up front, and present the alternative meaning of your words knowing that your audience are not using legal definitions...but I suspect that was the whole idea - argue something misleading that you're not yet backed into a corner on.
Anyway since your definition of privilege includes the legal right to drive your car on the road, let's go with it.
Except that's not even the point being made.
When you said"alpha access is a privilege granted by the developer and whether you pay them or they pay you for that privilege is irrelevant", my issue is that whether "I" pay (I'm a customer) or "they" pay (I'm an employee) is VERY MUCH relevant, not irrelevant as you stated.
As a customer I expect certain legal rights ("privileges") and relationships. As an employee I don't, I expect a different set.
And SC is very much treating me as a customer. The range of services and the state of the product don't change that.
Unless you now want to claim "customer" and "employee" have the same legal definition and that's what you meant all along? I dunno, I mean you can get as absurd as you like of course.
Purchasing a service or item is not a privilege its called Business.
incorrect, try again. learn the meaning of words and the law. even to be offered an item to own is a privilege and can be revoked before accepted (never even mind the service which is even more obvious). but like i said, i am done with this, its crazy, you wrote an entire essay without having any clue as to what you are talking about.
Here's where you said it. You still think you are smart, don't you? You should reevaluate that, and stop talking down towards people. You aren't who you think you are.
Okay, I will stop now. I think that's enough. lol
Interesting that you use unrelated quotes of mostly yourself as proof of me discussing the merits of what is or isn't a product. There seems to be a clear pattern emerging here. Make your own unrelated arguments and have a conversation with yourself, support it with incorrect information, claim the initial unrelated point was somehow defeated, move on to a position of superiority, lace the dialogue with insults. Rinse repeat.
I tried my best to educate, the words are all there. I am afraid your continued irrational and hostile behavior has left me little choice. It has been a pleasure.
Orinori said: There seems to be a clear pattern emerging here. Make your own unrelated arguments and have a conversation with yourself, support it with incorrect information, claim the initial unrelated point was somehow defeated, move on to a position of superiority, lace the dialogue with insults. Rinse repeat.
This would be a prefect example of the pot calling the kettle black.
Orinori said: There seems to be a clear pattern emerging here. Make your own unrelated arguments and have a conversation with yourself, support it with incorrect information, claim the initial unrelated point was somehow defeated, move on to a position of superiority, lace the dialogue with insults. Rinse repeat.
This would be a prefect example of the pot calling the kettle black.
When you think you can't "win" the real point (SC is a product being sold), you try to pretend its about something you think you can argue (the legal definition of the word privilege).
Feel free to work your way back from the initial comment, your "real point (SC is a product being sold)" is nothing I have been involved in and simply reaffirmed my position that "alpha access is a privilege granted by the developer and whether you pay them or they pay you for that privilege is irrelevant."
Outside a court (ie here), the colloquial understanding of privilege is different. Look it up if you like. I don't assume or argue legal definitions because I'm not a lawyer. Take that to a legal forum where people are.
If you're going to change the context to legal language, you should state that up front, and present the alternative meaning of your words knowing that your audience are not using legal definitions...but I suspect that was the whole idea - argue something misleading that you're not yet backed into a corner on.
The legal part is about being able to read it in the context of a contract. The meaning of the word is not really any different in legalese, but its understanding can change in different context. What has happened with these wonderful utterly useless conversations is that people seem to have attached emotion from what they believe it to mean instead of understanding the true interpretations of what was written, then proceeded to lecture me on 'why I am wrong' (that's the polite version) using completely unrelated arguments and analogies some of which are also wrong. This is my interpretation of events so far.
When you said"alpha access is a privilege granted by the developer and whether you pay them or they pay you for that privilege is irrelevant", my issue is that whether "I" pay (I'm a customer) or "they" pay (I'm an employee) is VERY MUCH relevant, not irrelevant as you stated.
This is a misunderstanding, the point being made is that for the company to offer access is itself a privilege and not some natural right. Money being involved after this event is irrelevant to the statement. "my issue is that whether "I" pay (I'm a customer) or "they" pay (I'm an employee) is VERY MUCH relevant" This is a different issue to the intention of the statement.
As a customer I expect certain legal rights ("privileges") and relationships. As an employee I don't, I expect a different set.
And SC is very much treating me as a customer. The range of services and the state of the product don't change that.
Unless you now want to claim "customer" and "employee" have the same legal definition and that's what you meant all along? I dunno, I mean you can get as absurd as you like of course.
So here is a different subject. You can indeed expect legal rights, being granted a privilege can even mean just that. However with a service (also a privilege granted), in most circumstance you can't physically force someone to continue to grant service but you can indeed try to seek remedy if needed. I am not really sure what can be gained from discussing this further, I was never interested in the other issues.
Thank you for persevering with the discourse without the insinuations and insults. As noted previously you have taken an aggressive insulting stance from your opening comments with me on other threads, do expect to be treated in kind. I would also like to note that through all of this, it was very very boring! Derailment value 10/10.
Edit: ah i just saw your comments at the top again shame.
Lol then why ever give anything a negative review? Every review should be glowing and just include a line at the end that says "but if you don't like it, don't buy it."
No, they're monetizing the product in a way that screams released product, despite any semantics attempted to make it seem less that way. They get assessed accordingly. Fair's fair.
Let's just see Ark Survival, they released incomplete DLC over one incomplete main game, but does that change the fact they still label both as incomplete and that you are buying the half-baked product and its half-baked DLC? I don't think it does.
The fact you might find what Ark did immoral and manipulative, sure we can say that, but that because of it you stand the right to have the expectation what you will play is a finished title, then that I won't agree with.
Do you know who fairly needs backlash for manipulating terminology?
Games that release as fully released games, yet they are broken, un-optimized and lack content just like what one would expect from one Alpha.
ARK Survival? The game hasn't been released but its DLC's have?
Did it ever occur to you that others may not want what passes as "education" in your mind?
Being an annoying fanboy hardly give you the authority to belch your opinion across a thread in the guise of "educational material".
I would just ignore him and report him if you feel it is needed. Don't fall for his passive aggressiveness and attempts at baiting you into arguing with him. That is exactly what he wants and it really is not worth it.
Comments
Typically access to an alpha or beta is sold as an enticement to get people paying for a product sooner than they might otherwise do so.
When I say "Business" I mean a sale of a product was made.
Still does not negate anything, you are backward because you really believe that CIG offering their "Alpha" state Game for money is a privilege when it's not.
People don't care about Alpha tests lets be clear. Developers do. Publishers do. Most people would have been happy playing the final game on launch. CIG didn't give away its Alpha test.. it sold and is currently selling it. Which means they offered their Product, so people bought it. Finished or not.
So frankly, Wth are you talking about? It's not a privilege to play the alpha of a game you paid for the access to. People actually paid for the SC Alpha.
What don't you get? You work for your money. You spend your money on products. Simple.
Buying Food from a Restaurant (Business) isn't a privilege in any way. They offered the food (Product) in exchange for your money.
Buying a car from a Dealership (Business) isn't a privilege in any way. They offered the Car (Product) in exchange for your money.
Buying a Game from CIG (Company) isn't a privilege in any way. I don't care if its Alpha or Final state. They offered a game, Star Citizen Alpha (Product) in exchange for your money.
So because you have exchanged money for this service/product.. by no means in any shape or form is it a Privilege. It's a product you purchased. Unfinished or Not. It does not matter how many ways they write it in a TOS.
Also just because it's in a contract (TOS in this case) does not mean its right.
(I don't know that CIG stated in the TOS that the game isn't a product, But I doubt it because it makes no sense but I digress)
The bottom line is it is, in fact, a Product. CIG (Business) is selling SC Alpha (Product)
Why is this so hard for you?
-Klash Guy
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
I love how not just SC but most games/devs think it is a privilege to pay up front lmao,NO it's a privilege to the developer to get money without having a game.
Can you imagine,to put it in perspective,walk into a restaurant,order some food,pay for it,then the waitress says...."Well your food might come and it might not,you should feel privileged to watch us cook it though".On things that are sort of SUSPECT,like ordering food,you get to taste it,eat it,see it before paying.
I have seen MANY suspect games with these early access,like 99.9% of them.Let's look at some that made a lot of money..H1Z1...that is just sigh and to think i paid 30 bucks to get into that crap.I'll put it in perspective again,i paid 15 bucks for ALL of FFXI,like idk around 6-9 expansions,30 bucks for H1Z1 which had ONE MAP,ONE model ...again sigh,disgusting.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
(the one about the car was my favorite by the way, even to drive it home would be a privilege granted!)
Some people here need to stop worshipping CIG and stop drinking their Kool-Aid.
They really have people thinking its an Honor and Privilege to be able to play their half-baked Alpha state of a game. smh.
really they are robbing you by charging you to be the QA when they should really be paying you since you know.. that's an actual job.
CIG like any business capitalizes on their fanbase who literally can't wait for the game (Product) by showing them one thing, then selling them another thing (SC Alpha Product) that's not quite the original thing (SC) offered.
They already made most of the money they are going to make.. so yea they can tell you guys anything they want for the next 20 years and some of you will sip the kool-aid.
Whether or not its supposed to be finished or not isn't the point. The point is they are selling you something so you as a customer have the right to complain about it.
If it was a free Alpha test then.. no, I don't think complaining is Valid at that point but be real. It's not free.
CIG isn't above complaints. Stop that. They sold a product, so get the fuck outta here with all that nonsense. If people want to complain let them. Stop being so butthurt for CIG. They don't need your moral support trust me they won't lose any sleep. I'm sure they sleep REALLY well at night, knowing they are getting away with robbery. I don't know any of them personally but I can tell someone over there doesn't have any integrity. But that's another conversation. Money does things to people you wouldn't believe.
I guess for some people those monthly/weekly whatever it is videos they drop just to say in a nutshell, "hey we are still working on the thing we promised" is enough for some to act like white knights.
Hey, knock yourself out. Just don't expect everyone else to start punching themselves in the face because you do it. Most people won't actually.
I'm not knocking anyone excited about SC.. but the people who act like everybody who has a complaint about SC must be crazy, or need to be more grateful for the opportunity/Privilege to play the alpha (that they payed for) need to stop being so thirsty and sit down somewhere.
But hey what do I know, I'm just a guy trying to keep his lights on.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
edit: idk that was a big one, maybe make it 4?
I'm trying not to laugh at you.
Oh, Are you a Lawyer? What type? Did you actually pass the Bar Exam? What year? What state do you practice in? Talk to me about it without using google.. tell me something I cant google myself.
Usually when people say "I have studied" subject x.. it means they don't have a degree in that, they just read about it so they think they know it. Or they are just throwing it out to win an argument they are losing. Sort of like when people realize nobody cares who they are and they say "Do you know who I am!?" smh
*whispers btw*
None of that matters. Its the internet. You can say anything you want. I don't care if you are a lawyer, a plumber or fisherman, anyone who does not understand how simple transactions work cant be very bright.
Regardless, let's not get off topic, I see you are trying to derail because you cant answer properly, mainly because I'm right, but I'll entertain it.
Please explain to me, Cogently how CIG selling the Alpha State of SC isn't them selling a product.
If SC Alpha isn't a product then what the hell is it?
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
What I wrote is easy to understand and true.
You don't have to believe it. You like to throw around words like "ignorance" and say stupid shit like "I Told you to go learn" when really it's you who is in need of learning so you can stop being ignorant.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
I have never mentioned anything about it being a product or not. I simply stated "alpha access is a privilege granted by the developer and whether you pay them or they pay you for that privilege is irrelevant"
More ranting essays with insults, thank you. I find it difficult to blame myself if you are unable to follow simple instructions.
I am going to sleep now, perhaps you will take the time to educate yourself instead of looking to blame others for your own failings. Goodnight.
That's not what happened. They sold the Alpha outright and directly like it was a finished product even though its still in development. Say its money for development whatever.. the fact remains they sold a product. I look at bottom lines. That's the bottom line of that situation.
The point is anything you purchase with money has to be looked at as a Service or Product. Not a privilege and that's my only point.
It's like saying putting food in your Fridge is a Privilege. Like you didn't work hard for your money and CHOOSE to exchange it at your supermarket for food. It wasn't free. You worked for it. The store offered it for sale and you made a purchase.
CIG offered SC Alpha and people purchased it. That makes it a paid Service/Product there is no way around it.
Calling a paid service or product a "privilege" is an insult to the consumer and no smart business would say that. Only SC White Knights it seems. CIG wouldn't even say that.
At least not publicly. I think.
I hope.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Oh really? You never mentioned anything about it being a product or not? Even though that's what the entire conversation was about? You really aren't that bright. I'm sad for you but i will try to help if I can.
You think you can change the narrative and run away because you lost? No sir. Hold this L. Take it to bed with you.
I quoted you by copying and pasting your response to another poster about me that way there is no way you can deny it or try to edit it to fit your narrative. I will also repost the response I got this quote from where you did exactly what you just said you didn't. It will be after this post.
"There is no artificial exclusiveness, he literally says "Purchasing a service or item is not a privilege" as a direct response to my post saying IT IS." -Orinori
I hate when people lie. Go to sleep. Please.
Edit: Edit
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Okay, I will stop now. I think that's enough. lol
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
When you think you can't "win" the real point (SC is a product being sold), you try to pretend its about something you think you can argue (the legal definition of the word privilege).
Seems like "winning" is more important to you than open-minded discussion.
Outside a court (ie here), the colloquial understanding of privilege is different. Look it up if you like. I don't assume or argue legal definitions because I'm not a lawyer. Take that to a legal forum where people are.
If you're going to change the context to legal language, you should state that up front, and present the alternative meaning of your words knowing that your audience are not using legal definitions...but I suspect that was the whole idea - argue something misleading that you're not yet backed into a corner on.
Anyway since your definition of privilege includes the legal right to drive your car on the road, let's go with it.
Except that's not even the point being made.
When you said "alpha access is a privilege granted by the developer and whether you pay them or they pay you for that privilege is irrelevant", my issue is that whether "I" pay (I'm a customer) or "they" pay (I'm an employee) is VERY MUCH relevant, not irrelevant as you stated.
As a customer I expect certain legal rights ("privileges") and relationships. As an employee I don't, I expect a different set.
And SC is very much treating me as a customer. The range of services and the state of the product don't change that.
Unless you now want to claim "customer" and "employee" have the same legal definition and that's what you meant all along? I dunno, I mean you can get as absurd as you like of course.
I tried my best to educate, the words are all there. I am afraid your continued irrational and hostile behavior has left me little choice. It has been a pleasure.
F A K E N E W S!
The legal part is about being able to read it in the context of a contract. The meaning of the word is not really any different in legalese, but its understanding can change in different context. What has happened with these wonderful utterly useless conversations is that people seem to have attached emotion from what they believe it to mean instead of understanding the true interpretations of what was written, then proceeded to lecture me on 'why I am wrong' (that's the polite version) using completely unrelated arguments and analogies some of which are also wrong. This is my interpretation of events so far.
This is a misunderstanding, the point being made is that for the company to offer access is itself a privilege and not some natural right. Money being involved after this event is irrelevant to the statement. "my issue is that whether "I" pay (I'm a customer) or "they" pay (I'm an employee) is VERY MUCH relevant" This is a different issue to the intention of the statement.
Pingu2012 said: So here is a different subject. You can indeed expect legal rights, being granted a privilege can even mean just that. However with a service (also a privilege granted), in most circumstance you can't physically force someone to continue to grant service but you can indeed try to seek remedy if needed. I am not really sure what can be gained from discussing this further, I was never interested in the other issues.
Thank you for persevering with the discourse without the insinuations and insults. As noted previously you have taken an aggressive insulting stance from your opening comments with me on other threads, do expect to be treated in kind. I would also like to note that through all of this, it was very very boring! Derailment value 10/10.
Edit: ah i just saw your comments at the top again
Being an annoying fanboy hardly give you the authority to belch your opinion across a thread in the guise of "educational material".
~~ postlarval ~~