Why SBS is no longer using SpatialOS (simplified version)

Dleatherus · January 2018

there were several reasons, but this final one was the tipping point:

Image: http://puu.sh/z0XdL/839a379a9b.jpg

here is what SpatialOS was doing/providing:

Image: http://puu.sh/z0Xim/dcc4ad1919.png

here is how SBS is now doing things:

Image: http://puu.sh/z0XkP/b3ba88c5ba.png

i think we all agree this was a very key change/decision in not going with SpatialOS

the reasons have been explained clearly

the solution has been explained clearly

that folks are skeptical about it is normal - usual glass half-full/half-empty social dynamics where neither side will ever "convince" the other

what is amusing though is that many of those skeptical about SBS no longer using SpatialOS, were questioning SBS teaming up with SpatialOS in the first place and that it was a negative thing- now that SBS have dropped SpatialOS and come up with an alternative solution, the very same people are saying 'this is a negative thing'

SpatialOS was for sure one of the key foundations of the concept of devopment

the need to partner with SpatialOS has now been replaced with an explanation (read the actual post for more in depth details) and which programs etc they are going to use

since these are pre-existing programs they don't have to spend a lot of time writing code etc - will it delay the game some? - not sure - VoxElyria is still slated for April of this year - we shall have to see

Kyleran · January 2018

As the original delivery timeframe as well as last summer's updated one relied on using Spatial IOS to make it all possible.

It is unreasonable to think they'v replaced a
It using in house, alternate solutions and still remain on schedule.

I'd say expect at least a years additional delay unless...they really hadn't done anything with it for quite some time.

It does explain why their hiring ads last month made no reference to SpatialIOS.

Wellspring · January 2018

Dleatherus said:

what is amusing though is that many of those skeptical about SBS no longer using SpatialOS, were questioning SBS teaming up with SpatialOS in the first place and that it was a negative thing- now that SBS have dropped SpatialOS and come up with an alternative solution, the very same people are saying 'this is a negative thing'

If they couldn't even get it done on time and on budget using SpatialOS, you expect us to now believe they have a chance to deliver on their promised features without it?

What I find even more amusing are the people who claimed that the SpatialOS partnership was a positive for the game, and now say the split from SpatialOS is no bid deal...

Dleatherus · January 2018

Wellspring said:

If they couldn't even get it done on time and on budget using SpatialOS, you expect us to now believe they have a chance to deliver on their promised features without it?

What I find even more amusing are the people who claimed that the SpatialOS partnership was a positive for the game, and now say the split from SpatialOS is no bid deal...

i didn't say it was no big deal - in fact quite the opposite

my exact words were "i think we all agree this was a very key change/decision in not going with SpatialOS" - which can be paraphrased as "we can all agree that this is a big deal in not going with SpatialOS"

what I have done is provide for easier comprehension, the reasons for why proceeding with SpatialOS wasn't feasible, what using SpatialOS accomplished, and what SBS is already using as alternatives

as to what you choose to believe or not, that's up to you personally

you see the sky as falling

i see a problem occurred with CoE no longer being able to interact with the backend of SpatialOS due to SpatialOS no longer supporting JS SDK

i see a clear explanation of the underlying reasons

i see a clear explanation of the solutions

i see a clear possibility (and stated so in my OP) that it will add to development time - will be a bummer for sure if it is the year that @Kyleran mentioned, however any date any of us throw out there is again in the realms of speculation

i do believe that we will be able to see from when things are being worked upon, whether it has had an impact or not (though this might not be the only contributing factor if a delay was to occur)

in fact might be an idea to ask Caspian as to how many of the items in the second list are already in place

dadazar · January 2018

It is all already in place, afaik.

Slapshot1188 · January 2018

Wellspring said:

Dleatherus said:

what is amusing though is that many of those skeptical about SBS no longer using SpatialOS, were questioning SBS teaming up with SpatialOS in the first place and that it was a negative thing- now that SBS have dropped SpatialOS and come up with an alternative solution, the very same people are saying 'this is a negative thing'

If they couldn't even get it done on time and on budget using SpatialOS, you expect us to now believe they have a chance to deliver on their promised features without it?

What I find even more amusing are the people who claimed that the SpatialOS partnership was a positive for the game, and now say the split from SpatialOS is no bid deal...

Here are Caspien's own words:

This partnership has been in the works for a while now and answers the fundamental question people have been asking "How are you going to build a world this large, with a hundred thousands players, and all these never-before-seen features?!" The answer is SpatialOS. SpatialOS will act as the fabric that our game is built on. It's the server technology that will allow us to support millions of entities in the world. Built first and foremost as a scalable, distributed operating system for games, SpatialOS means we don't have to spend time developing the things that generally take the most time when building a new MMO. We don't have to worry about networking on the server, load balancing all the entities in the world, replication of entities across multiple server nodes, cross-process communication, collision detection of millions of entities, etc. In short, we don't have to worry about developing any of the technology that makes an MMO, an MMO.

So yes, it was always a long shot to use SpatialOS simply because there is no game that I am aware of that has hundreds of thousands of persistent characters online simultaneously on the same server (The closest is EvE which is not a real analogous comp). That long shot though, was backed by a well funded (over half a billion dollars) team of specialists. Now we are supposed to believe that a small, fairly new team of game developers is going to come up with their own in house version in just a few month by using open source, mostly free products. As I said multiple times. This went from long shot to needing a miracle. And if by some chance they do manage it they should ditch Role-Playing a Dev team and just sell a competitor to SpatialOS.

The sad part is, that since one of the key things SpatialOS was going to do was to make it possible to have those hundred of thousands of characters on the same server at the same time, along with millions of persistent objects... simply showing a 2 person Jousting Demo in a small pre-made scene is not helpful. You won't know if they succeeded until they actually host all those people moving, fighting, and doing stuff that characters normally do.

Put this in perspective. To date they have:

Massively under estimated the time needed to create the game. It should have been released last month yet has not even hit Alpha yet.
Used SpatialOS as the fabric their game would be built on. Then in the middle of development found out that it was too expensive and apparently lacked some features they needed.
Said they would use the Kickstarter funding as seed money to land a publisher and would not need more money from fans. Here are his words: " Of the additional $2M – $3M, it’s our intention that all of it be covered by investors, or at least, not players."
Said the money listed above would be all the money they needed: "Yes. That’s what we anticipate is necessary to finish the game completely – including building all the additional content, hiring additional staff, and getting it out the door."

So of the key parts the project was sold on (Timeline, Cost/Source of Funding, Technology)... they were apparently wrong on all 3. Which leads us to:

THEY (SBS) are the ones that sold SpatialOS as the fabric they would build their game on. The burden of proof is now on them to prove their jury-rigged system is up to the task.

MaxBacon · January 2018

Going with a self-created solution for one MMO backend, may Gaming God have mercy on those poor souls.

Dakeru · January 2018

Dleatherus said:

what is amusing though is that many of those skeptical about SBS no longer using SpatialOS, were questioning SBS teaming up with SpatialOS in the first place and that it was a negative thing- now that SBS have dropped SpatialOS and come up with an alternative solution, the very same people are saying 'this is a negative thing'

Amusing are these half truths you guys are spreading.
Since Mystichaze said the same thing I assume this is the new mantra chanting within the Ivory Tower.

The criticism has always been the risk of putting it all on one card.
That card being SpatialOS but repeatedly it was said that this is what will carry the dream.

Now this trump card just poofed and instead of realizing that we have been pointing out a weak point in the plan you guys feel we were wrong cause the weak point has been removed.

I guess you have to be part of the Ivory Tower to understand this logic.

dadazar · January 2018

Dear! @Slapshot1188
You really stick to those few, ever returning, very speculating and ill interpreted points, don´t you? It looks a bit like a confirmation bias to me.

You are repeating yourself very much, and don´t seem to reflect your points and formulate them with dramatic terms.

Why do you think they "massively" underestimated the timeschedule? As if game-development anywhere tends to meet "ETA"s. It´s in the nature of future events that they are hard to plan and to estimate.

"..Then in the middle of development found out that it was too expensive.."
In the middle? It was in the early backbone developing stages, like it was planed, don´t know why you say this. And they changed, eventually because - like OP pointed at - of a change in SpatialOS JS support. The cost factor have been managed, but now became unbalanced as SBS would have to stear around to much.

Your following money argument might be a quote from early KS days, and assumes they don´t have any negotiations with other sources than gamers right now - which is wrong, afaik.

And no, SpatialOS is no heavenly artifact which can´t be imitated, ever. We´ll have to see how well SBS will deal with it - or better dealt with - and if maybe not "..hundred of thousands of characters on the same server at the same time.." are possible. It might be enough if there are some hundreds on a single cluster-server.

So, generally, all your repeating out of date rephrasing "arguments" are a lot guesswork and speculations, with intentions i can´t be sure of. ?! Are you trying to prove that SBS will fail, or that you are right?

Slapshot1188 · January 2018

Lol. I return to those points because they are facts... something apparently hard to understand by true devotees.

Lets take your posts item by item:

I say Massively underestimated because the game was supposed to release last month. Instead it’s not even in Alpha and release is YEARS away. If you don’t see that as Massively underestimating then the issue is on your end

I say middle of development because the game should be out now. When you announce you are changing the fabric your game is built on... at a date after the game should be released... it’s being kind to refer to it as middle of development.

My money argument is their own words... again goes to incompetent project planning/management.

It’s now obvious that you are someone reincarnated so I can’t wait to get accused of slander soon. Understanding this though, you can now join your fellow Ivory Tower folks on the do not respond list.

dadazar · January 2018

@Slapshot1188 Oh common, are you now bound to "facts" or are you throwing stupid immature phrase all along.

That release date on the kickstarter page is, as mentioned already elsewhere, an eta that is hard to plan, and had to been made. Most worthy projects do postpone "release" dates (SC). A rough estimated schedule is public long time ago by now. Other game-projects don´t even bother putting out eta, if they can afford it (see Bannerlord, Cyberpunk,.. they got money already), as they are unlikely to achive. The year 2017 where dedicated to backend development. They got some unforseen trouble with the SpatialOS issue, and are now delayed, yes. So what?

If everyone try to argue against your vague arguments is "from the IVORY TOWER", you just might be from Mount Doom, are you?

I would like to hind you and everyone interested to something.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Kyleran · January 2018

dadazar said:

@Slapshot1188 Oh common, are you now bound to "facts" or are you throwing stupid immature phrase all along.

That release date on the kickstarter page is, as mentioned already elsewhere, an eta that is hard to plan, and had to been made. Most worthy projects do postpone "release" dates (SC). A rough estimated schedule is public long time ago by now. Other game-projects don´t even bother putting out eta, if they can afford it (see Bannerlord, Cyberpunk,.. they got money already), as they are unlikely to achive. The year 2017 where dedicated to backend development. They got some unforseen trouble with the SpatialOS issue, and are now delayed, yes. So what?

If everyone try to argue against your vague arguments is "from the IVORY TOWER", you just might be from Mount Doom, are you?

I would like to hind you and everyone interested to something.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

As an official "Harbinger of Failure" I am more than happy to relocate to "Mount Doom."

I hear the view is amazingly clear from up there, with no real blind spots.

GeezerGamer · January 2018

As far as I can tell, the SpatialOS JavaScript SDK was always listed as experimental. Didn't this come up for discussion at some point during all the vetting out? No one asked "So what's the future of this module?"

GeezerGamer · January 2018

mystichaze · January 2018

Wellspring said:

What I find even more amusing are the people who claimed that the SpatialOS partnership was a positive for the game, and now say the split from SpatialOS is no bid deal...

I also didn't say that it wasn't a big deal. My exact quote was "There are many of us that thought SpatialOS was going to help SBS to bring forth many of the features promised too. I admit that I am one of them and a bit disappointed by this decision, but before passing judgment I will wait to see what the future holds. We (as in the general public) are not in the office working alongside the team and have no idea all the facts surrounding their decision."

Dakeru said:

Amusing are these half truths you guys are spreading.
Since Mystichaze said the same thing I assume this is the new mantra chanting within the Ivory Tower.

As in most of your assumptions, you are wrong. We have not spoken at all, let alone talked about the debates within these forums. Just because folks feel the same on certain matters doesn't mean they have conspired together to debate a point.

Slapshot said:

It’s now obvious that you are someone reincarnated so I can’t wait to get accused of slander soon. Understanding this though, you can now join your fellow Ivory Tower folks on the do not respond list.

Anyone who disagrees with you is labeled to be from the "Ivory Tower" and you are going to put them on your do not respond list. Might I ask how you have a successful, adult debate with only those that agree with you? In addition, you always end up responding anyways, which is fine, but why keep saying you won't?

FlyByKnight · January 2018

MaxBacon said:

Going with a self-created solution for one MMO backend, may Gaming God have mercy on those poor souls.

I don't think they're self-created reading through the list. It looks like they're just using different solutions for different needs rather than betting the farm on an all-in-one.

Slapshot1188 · January 2018

Kyleran said:

As an official "Harbinger of Failure" I am more than happy to relocate to "Mount Doom."

I hear the view is amazingly clear from up there, with no real blind spots.

Well technically you aren't an official Harbinger unless you get one of our cloaks.

Kyleran · January 2018

Slapshot1188 said:

Kyleran said:

As an official "Harbinger of Failure" I am more than happy to relocate to "Mount Doom."

I hear the view is amazingly clear from up there, with no real blind spots.

Well technically you aren't an official Harbinger unless you get one of our cloaks.

I can't find a cat avatar wearing a hood

Slapshot1188 · January 2018

Here’s a few

kruler · January 2018

Trying to find a cloak for Mr T but isn't going well, he was in fact quite rude about it. But Harbinger of Fools was received well.

GeezerGamer · January 2018

Slapshot1188 said:

Here’s a few

Nyassassin

ConstantineMerus · January 2018

If @Kyleran changes his avatar over some silly game a part of me dies and will never grow back.

Ps. Taking bets on which part!

acidblood · January 2018

Right... so they're planning on running a real-time graphical MMO on a transactional DB and a JavaScript engine designed for web-services, and (I assume) are hoping that the Cloud will just magically take care of the performance issues that's going to have? ... that said, if they were only aiming for a MUD this could make some sort of sense.

Nilden · January 2018

acidblood said:

Right... so they're planning on running a real-time graphical MMO on a transactional DB and a JavaScript engine designed for web-services, and (I assume) are hoping that the Cloud will just magically take care of the performance issues that's going to have? ... that said, if they were only aiming for a MUD this could make some sort of sense.

Oh really? How does that make sense for a MUD?

acidblood · January 2018

Nilden said:

acidblood said:

Right... so they're planning on running a real-time graphical MMO on a transactional DB and a JavaScript engine designed for web-services, and (I assume) are hoping that the Cloud will just magically take care of the performance issues that's going to have? ... that said, if they were only aiming for a MUD this could make some sort of sense.

Oh really? How does that make sense for a MUD?

Because using stuff like PostgreSQL, NodeJS and Docker is relatively quick and easy, as long as you don't care too much about performance (at least in the dynamic real-time sense that an MMO typically requires) ... And MUDs, generally, are a lot less demanding than a typical MMO...

For example: The simple presentation of a (typical) MUD means you don't need high-precious 3D co-ordinates (among other data) for each player multiple times per-second... depending on your combat system you don't need as responsive or frequent input updates... if the UI is mostly text based / very simple it doesn't matter if things are a bit slow to update... if your 'world' is simply presented (e.g. text, or lots of small zones) then you don't need as complex spatial awareness (i.e. where players, mobs, etc. are relative to each other) on the server side...

MadFrenchie · January 2018

ConstantineMerus said:

If @Kyleran changes his avatar over some silly game a part of me dies and will never grow back.

Ps. Taking bets on which part!

The penile part.

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Why SBS is no longer using SpatialOS (simplified version)

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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Why SBS is no longer using SpatialOS (simplified version)

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV