Old School...Such a bad phrase

delete5230 · January 2018

Old School and First Generation mmoprg's are two different things.
I'm being extremely humble in asking you to let this statement soak in before continuing on.

I don't know why so many feel they are the same. "OldSchool" is a bad word. It's simply a word that stuck, It's a nice soft phrase, but what it does, is bring many beck to broken games instead of a style. I do it myself at times.

- Old School, A method of playing ( bad phrase for a style of playing, right ? ).
- First Generation, The first mmorpg's beck when computers were mass produced for the consumer. "The first initial thought"

So it's easy to understand why both phrases run together !

So many people say:

I'll never go back to a clunky, broken game with bad graphics. Why would I play a new game like this made in 2018 ?....... This is how anyone would think because of the phrase "Old School".

So with all this where do we stand:

- First generation, focuses on personal character development to continually prepare the player to play as a group with others. Often the world is made more simple allowing the players to create their own history and story. The environment is harsh and carful decisions have to be made to survive.

- Second generation, focuses on personal character development to be played in a theme setting, This style has both solo a group play and give the player more choices to play as desired. The environment is moderately hard to easy depending on the players choice.

- Third generation, focuses on fun and the content and is often scripted by developers. Group play is instanced or auto-dynamic and viewed as a mini-game to offer a choice away from the scripted content. Personal story lines give the player an off line feel to progress your character as an alternative but highly recommended by developers. The environment is easy for all ages.

First and second generation mmorpg's are no longer being developed..... They just "stopped".

So I'll close with this:

In reading my description of first generation mmoprg's ( you can make your own ).
Why should First generation be called "Old school" when its a style ?

nate1980 · January 2018

Definition of old-school

1: adhering to traditional policies or practices

an old-school coach

2: characteristic or evocative of an earlier or original style, manner, or form

old-schoolmusic

I believe this definition correctly represents how we're referring to what you call First Generation. It means the same thing. They're the original MMORPG's.

delete5230 · January 2018

nate1980 said:

Definition of old-school
1: adhering to traditional policies or practices
an old-school coach
2: characteristic or evocative of an earlier or original style, manner, or form
old-schoolmusic

I believe this definition correctly represents how we're referring to what you call First Generation. It means the same thing. They're the original MMORPG's.

Totally understand,

BUT It makes people here think of bad programming from an earlier time. Where the style is a different subject.

Tamanous · January 2018

What you call something really means nothing if you can't come to an agreement of what you're talking about. It's why arguments on forums on this site go absolutely fucking nowhere. That and clearly most post without bothering to even read previous responses and tangents are rampant.

The term old school is one of them. It is picked apart in many ways. When used for mmorpgs is clearly means early generation iterations that created a (once) defined genre. The point, and always has been the point, is differentiating modern mmo direction with old school mmorpg design. It isn't crappy UI or combat mechanics but a macro view of the style of game created. It is one and the same.

I just wish people could figure this out so conversations can actually be on topic for once. I get sick and fucking tired of excuses like "nobody wants old school because they don't want to use crappy UI and combat mechanics circa early 2000's". NO SHIT ... they missed the entire point as usual with their pointless diatribe.

No matter the term used, the ONLY topic when referencing early gen mmorpgs with modern day mmos is style and goal of it's creation. Old school mmorpgs strove to created living, immersive and most importantly, inclusive worlds. Solo attention to the player was not the goal. It is this completely different direction of focus that drives the player base that lost it's genre to demand it's return. It has NEVER been about wanting the return of old tech and early game mechanic flaws.

A fully modern "old school" can be made because it's the design philosophy which defined a specific genre that was abandoned when big developers desolved a specific concept in favor of mass market appeal and a rotating door monetized strategy.

What is most often seen on this site is semantic dispute which is the argument of those who's intelligence hasn't evolved enough to be functional for conversation yet.

delete5230 · January 2018

Tamanous said:

What you call something really means nothing if you can't come to an agreement of what you're talking about. It's why arguments on forums on this site go absolutely fucking nowhere. That and clearly most post without bothering to even read previous responses and tangents are rampant.

The term old school is one of them. It is picked apart in many ways. When used for mmorpgs is clearly means early generation iterations that created a (once) defined genre. The point, and always has been the point, is differentiating modern mmo direction with old school mmorpg design. It isn't crappy UI or combat mechanics but a macro view of the style of game created. It is one and the same.

I just wish people could figure this out so conversations can actually be on topic for once. I get sick and fucking tired of excuses like "nobody wants old school because they don't want to use crappy UI and combat mechanics circa early 2000's". NO SHIT ... they missed the entire point as usual with their pointless diatribe.

No matter the term used, the ONLY topic when referencing early gen mmorpgs with modern day mmos is style and goal of it's creation. Old school mmorpgs strove to created living, immersive and most importantly, inclusive worlds. Solo attention to the player was not the goal. It is this completely different direction of focus that drives the player base that lost it's genre to demand it's return. It has NEVER been about wanting the return of old tech and early game mechanic flaws.

A fully modern "old school" can be made because it's the design philosophy which defined a specific genre that was abandoned when big developers desolved a specific concept in favor of mass market appeal and a rotating door monetized strategy.

What is most often seen on this site is semantic dispute which is the argument of those who's intelligence hasn't evolved enough to be functional for conversation yet.

Well put, better than I

The second paragraph is perfect with:
- It is picked apart in many ways
- It isn't crappy UI or combat mechanics but a macro view of the style of game created.

Last paragraph is perfect with:
-What is most often seen on this site is semantic dispute.

The phrase "old school" is a major semantic dispute here.

Flyte27 · January 2018

Sometimes terms are hard to drop. Old school is a terminology that came out in the 90s I believe. My generation made it up. They also made up terms like MMO, newb, grind, twink, and many others to describe things in the games. Most of the MMO vocabulary came from us. It was our own leet speak. Therefore I think it's fitting that first generation (or perhaps even second if you consider games like Meridan 59 and textual games) that are called old school. Regardless what does it matter? In this day and age, people obsess too much over details instead of having fun. This is ironic considering your post that the games now are more about having fun. I don't find that to be the case. I guess that depends on your definition of fun. My parents still watch movies from 1the 1940s and 50s when they were growing up. I find many of those movies dull, but some of them are interesting. Therefore I declare that old school MMOs aren't bad. They are just different from what mainstream people enjoy.

Scot · January 2018

Delete's use of the term first generation etc does not seem to be how the gaming industry uses it. They seem to use it solely in terms of the technical capability the games expresses and their popularity.

I do agree broadly with your three stages in the template MMOs were built on, using the term generation is just rather confusing.

Scorchien · January 2018

Im just amazed that we have posters that troll this community day in and day out and we have folks who fall down the rabbit hole and feed it ..... Day in and Day out....

btdt · January 2018

Old school simply means from an earlier time... nothing more. When you say old school you literally mean from an earlier time. It's precisely why you can't make an old school game today... because that would be retro, not old school.

So stop coming up with pointless definitions using colloquial phrases. Unless chasing your tail is exactly all you care to do.

Viper482 · January 2018

delete5230 said:

Old School and First Generation mmoprg's are two different things.
I'm being extremely humble in asking you to let this statement soak in before continuing on.

I don't know why so many feel they are the same. "OldSchool" is a bad word. It's simply a word that stuck, It's a nice soft phrase, but what it does, is bring many beck to broken games instead of a style. I do it myself at times.

- Old School, A method of playing ( bad phrase for a style of playing, right ? ).
- First Generation, The first mmorpg's beck when computers were mass produced for the consumer. "The first initial thought"

So it's easy to understand why both phrases run together !

So many people say:

I'll never go back to a clunky, broken game with bad graphics. Why would I play a new game like this made in 2018 ?....... This is how anyone would think because of the phrase "Old School".

So with all this where do we stand:

- First generation, focuses on personal character development to continually prepare the player to play as a group with others. Often the world is made more simple allowing the players to create their own history and story. The environment is harsh and carful decisions have to be made to survive.

- Second generation, focuses on personal character development to be played in a theme setting, This style has both solo a group play and give the player more choices to play as desired. The environment is moderately hard to easy depending on the players choice.

- Third generation, focuses on fun and the content and is often scripted by developers. Group play is instanced or auto-dynamic and viewed as a mini-game to offer a choice away from the scripted content. Personal story lines give the player an off line feel to progress your character as an alternative but highly recommended by developers. The environment is easy for all ages.

First and second generation mmorpg's are no longer being developed..... They just "stopped".

So I'll close with this:

In reading my description of first generation mmoprg's ( you can make your own ).
Why should First generation be called "Old school" when its a style ?

I get what you are saying, but don't make this about semantics because people are already missing your point. I was just commenting on this in another thread. When simpletons see we want "old school" MMO genre back again they think bad graphics, bugs, and all the inconveniences that came with "old school". When actual fans of the old style MMO talk about them we think community, dependence on others, the virtual face to face social experience outside of general/world chat, the journey rather than racing to the level cap.

It bugs the piss out of me when I state I miss old school and some pompous arse replies with "you miss bugs?" or some crap like that. No one claims older MMOs were perfect, and when we miss them it is not the bad parts. The notion is absurd really and just strawmanning.

GeezerGamer · January 2018

Once again, I am scratching my head. I don't follow you.

"Old School and First Generation mmoprg's are two different things. "

Where did you come up with this?
In your context, what defines Old School and what defines 1st Gen? What makes them different? But to determine that, we need the established baselines for their meaning, and I don't think you have done this.

Old School is only bad for players who don't like Old School MMOs.

Your context would make sense if there was a new MMO released that was styled after a 1st Gen MMO. But there isn't. So to me, Old School IS 1st Gen.

delete5230 · January 2018

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

The strategy is quite obvious and desperate.

After trying to pass for a "old school majority member" in the previous thread here:
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/470790/most-of-the-real-mmo-players-are-gone-from-this-site#latest
and being called out for just being another MMO player who just started with WoW, now he's trying to change the definition of "old school" to make him (and his imaginary majority) fit into it.

Nice try.

Ok..... I guess I have to clear this up again.
I play mmoprg's for community, because this is what an mmo is.

To get others up to speed, I created a post several weeks ago, that I'll be trying P1999 ( EQ1 ). I began playing it, I researched much on the internet and asked questions here. I hyped this game because it's a true mmorpg and their are very few of them around because we now have play grounds for kids.

Infact it's SO MUCH AN MMORPG soon into it I realized I can't devote the time needed to get involved with the community. I got married a few months ago and were taking care of a severely disabled child AND EVERYTHING THAT GOES ALONG WITH IT, I'll not go into detail.

So with all this:
I have P1999 on my mind constantly along with two other offline games. I don't have time to play any of them. I'll even admit, I don't have much desire for video games at this time with so many life changes....... Eventually when life settles down, I plan on not only playing P1999, I can't wait to write a full positive review about it.

I have time before 7 am to view this site and post, as the day progresses I'm off and on, other than that not much.

Why do I have time now ????......Because Jean_Luc_Picard, keeps throwing this in my face about once a day. All because he is mad that I called his ESO a child's playground.

I'll leave you with this:
James T. Kirk was a better Starship Captain than Jean Luc Picard !!

ScotchUp · January 2018

Funny part is to a lot of players today Vanilla WOW is old school. Which is exactly why threads like this will never end well. Ultima Online Beta and EQ is old school to me.

Yet Spock was the best of all and he could do all their jobs!

Grunty · January 2018

delete5230 said:

I'll leave you with this:
James T. Kirk was a better Starship Captain than Jean Luc Picard !!

If that were so then where's all the James T. Kirk facepalms?

Scot · January 2018

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

The strategy is quite obvious and desperate.

After trying to pass for a "old school majority member" in the previous thread here:
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/470790/most-of-the-real-mmo-players-are-gone-from-this-site#latest
and being called out for just being another MMO player who just started with WoW, now he's trying to change the definition of "old school" to make him (and his imaginary majority) fit into it.

Nice try.

I feel this is unfair, Delete just likes to throw these threads with his own slant into the mix. Also he would not be the first older MMO player who thought he could go back to a "full time" MMO and found it was too full time.

Finding a MMOlite is the only solution if you don't have much time, but that's unsatisfying so it is a no win situation I imagine for now.

Finally he is not the first person on here to think old school was WoW, and actually it is old school enough to be described as that. Though that means that old school does not mean the same thing to us all, but then we knew that anyway.

kjempff · January 2018

Everyone has their own perception of what the term old school means, and those definitions are so different and people so stuck to it that it all discussion end in misunderstanding except from those who are on the same level.

Some (myself included) think of old school as the spirit of mmos at a certain point, but not the graphics or a lot of specific mechanics. Others think of the same games but put a lot of weight on specific mechanics to define it (obviously when I try to discuss with them it just leads to misunderstandings).
Other only see the surface and aestetics and to them old school just means old and dated because that is the direction mmos have de/e-volved fast. Others again never played a mmo pre wow and doesn't realize that wow/eq2 was the start of the themepark era and fundamentally different (even though some mechanics are the same), and obviously does not communicate well with players who experienced/analysed pre wow mmos. And of course a lot of bias added to personal definitions, and trying to bend discussions and definitions to their preferences..
So, since we can't really include a 10 pager trying to describe what we mean by this and that, then old school and a lot of other definitions are nearly impossible to have a meaningful discussion about.

Tamanous · January 2018

DMKano said:

Tamanous said:

No matter the term used, the ONLY topic when referencing early gen mmorpgs with modern day mmos is style and goal of it's creation. Old school mmorpgs strove to created living, immersive and most importantly, inclusive worlds. Solo attention to the player was not the goal. It is this completely different direction of focus that drives the player base that lost it's genre to demand it's return. It has NEVER been about wanting the return of old tech and early game mechanic flaws.

A fully modern "old school" can be made because it's the design philosophy which defined a specific genre that was abandoned when big developers desolved a specific concept in favor of mass market appeal and a rotating door monetized strategy.

What is most often seen on this site is semantic dispute which is the argument of those who's intelligence hasn't evolved enough to be functional for conversation yet.

I respectfully disagree.

If the "he ONLY topic when referencing early gen mmorpgs with modern day mmos is style and goal of it's creation. Old school mmorpgs strove to created living, immersive and most importantly, inclusive worlds."

Then BDO, ArcheAge and a slew of others would be considered "old school"

Old School goes beyond style and goal of creation - there were certain game design decisions that were certainly old school

1. SLOW rate of progression - because #2
2. Subscription based - the devs wanted players to stay subs as long as possible - so the gameplay included major time wasters (like waiting 30min of real time for transport) etc...
3. Failures were punishing - XP loss on death, loss of gear, etc...
4. Major time commitment to play - no options for jumping in and out for 15-20min

etc...

Bottom line - old school goes well beyond your definition, and it certainly is not about "old tech limitations"

You basically agreed with the essence of what I said except once again using the tired excuse of mechanics being part of the definition which they are not required at all. They were tropes borrowed from other games which influenced the creation of early gen mmorpgs but are not defining elements needed to reproduce modern interpretations of it. You continue to distill individual points without describing their intent.

Sure harsh death penalties were common but they existed for a reason ... but a completely different mechanic could be invented to reproduce the intended game play affect. It is about understanding WHY they existed and not nitpicking what ultimately was made. Same can be said for slow progression but this is reflect realism as nobody conquered the world in a day in history and mmorpgs are nothing more than fantasy interpretations of ancient human history. Apparently you think it is ok for Hannibal to buy war elephants from a cash shop. WIN!

Sure rewards and progression required time but that is the core function of the game because that is what immersion is. The purpose of a sub, beyond earnings, is to separate financial influence from content creation and ANY IN GAME influence that impacts immersive game play. F2P is NOT an evolution but merely an adaptation to maximize cash flow from an audience with total disregard on how it impacts the game. F2P has directly contributed to the destruction of the genre by changing game design philosophy from niche marketing to meta marketing. Subscription itself is not a defining feature of an old school mmorpg but the side affect of it is (removal of influence on the game). You catching on yet?

BDO does not fit an old school mmorpg but it does share some elements as it is an mmo. This is where your random rants of misinterpreted and conflicting facts comes in. PVE in BDO is meaningless. It offers no challenge and only serves the purpose as a largely solo xp grind, but that isn't even what destroys it as an old school concept. It's the very feature you list as a defining old school mechanic: It's isn't a subscription game. It is a cash shop game. Progression is xp based along with crafting grind which is directly impacted by the cash shop through that mechanic. It also heavily relies on offline mechanics. That is NOT immersion.

The core purpose of most asian mmos is to create a game adapted to maximizing monetized gains by full integration of the financial model and game design. That, right there, disqualifies all cash shop model games from old school ideals. I don't care how players generate money for a developer; blood drive, semen donation, stuffed toy prostitution, etc ... as long as it doesn't impact the vision of the what and why the mmorpg exists for.

If you can't apply your own definitions to your examples then I don't know how anyone can converse with you. I don't know if you post stoned or just stubbornly stick to your own agenda regardless of counter points presented. Personally I just think you can't see the big picture even if someone paints it for you.

Tamanous · January 2018

kjempff said:

Everyone has their own perception of what the term old school means, and those definitions are so different and people so stuck to it that it all discussion end in misunderstanding except from those who are on the same level.

Some (myself included) think of old school as the spirit of mmos at a certain point, but not the graphics or a lot of specific mechanics. Others think of the same games but put a lot of weight on specific mechanics to define it (obviously when I try to discuss with them it just leads to misunderstandings).
Other only see the surface and aestetics and to them old school just means old and dated because that is the direction mmos have de/e-volved fast. Others again never played a mmo pre wow and doesn't realize that wow/eq2 was the start of the themepark era and fundamentally different (even though some mechanics are the same), and obviously does not communicate well with players who experienced/analysed pre wow mmos. And of course a lot of bias added to personal definitions, and trying to bend discussions and definitions to their preferences..
So, since we can't really include a 10 pager trying to describe what we mean by this and that, then old school and a lot of other definitions are nearly impossible to have a meaningful discussion about.

And this is why communication fails. You support semantic disputes and fail to realize that you do NOT apply YOUR definition of something to a thread created by someone who already defined how THEY are using the concept for their own discussion. They could use the term old school, banana, flibbertigibbet, bumfizzle ... it matters not. You interpret meaning and discuss the point of the topic or else your response is wasting everyone's time.

AriesTiger · January 2018

There's no f*ing generations like you have listed. That's crazy talk. Everything becomes old when it's been used at least once.

Kyleran · January 2018

Tamanous said:

kjempff said:

Everyone has their own perception of what the term old school means, and those definitions are so different and people so stuck to it that it all discussion end in misunderstanding except from those who are on the same level.

Some (myself included) think of old school as the spirit of mmos at a certain point, but not the graphics or a lot of specific mechanics. Others think of the same games but put a lot of weight on specific mechanics to define it (obviously when I try to discuss with them it just leads to misunderstandings).
Other only see the surface and aestetics and to them old school just means old and dated because that is the direction mmos have de/e-volved fast. Others again never played a mmo pre wow and doesn't realize that wow/eq2 was the start of the themepark era and fundamentally different (even though some mechanics are the same), and obviously does not communicate well with players who experienced/analysed pre wow mmos. And of course a lot of bias added to personal definitions, and trying to bend discussions and definitions to their preferences..
So, since we can't really include a 10 pager trying to describe what we mean by this and that, then old school and a lot of other definitions are nearly impossible to have a meaningful discussion about.

And this is why communication fails. You support semantic disputes and fail to realize that you do NOT apply YOUR definition of something to a thread created by someone who already defined how THEY are using the concept for their own discussion. They could use the term old school, banana, flibbertigibbet, bumfizzle ... it matters not. You interpret meaning and discuss the point of the topic or else your response is wasting everyone's time.

OP starts with "Old School and First Generation mmoprg's are two different things."

OP is clearly wrong for reasons several have stated.

/end thread

delete5230 · January 2018

Kyleran said:

Tamanous said:

kjempff said:

Everyone has their own perception of what the term old school means, and those definitions are so different and people so stuck to it that it all discussion end in misunderstanding except from those who are on the same level.

Some (myself included) think of old school as the spirit of mmos at a certain point, but not the graphics or a lot of specific mechanics. Others think of the same games but put a lot of weight on specific mechanics to define it (obviously when I try to discuss with them it just leads to misunderstandings).
Other only see the surface and aestetics and to them old school just means old and dated because that is the direction mmos have de/e-volved fast. Others again never played a mmo pre wow and doesn't realize that wow/eq2 was the start of the themepark era and fundamentally different (even though some mechanics are the same), and obviously does not communicate well with players who experienced/analysed pre wow mmos. And of course a lot of bias added to personal definitions, and trying to bend discussions and definitions to their preferences..
So, since we can't really include a 10 pager trying to describe what we mean by this and that, then old school and a lot of other definitions are nearly impossible to have a meaningful discussion about.

And this is why communication fails. You support semantic disputes and fail to realize that you do NOT apply YOUR definition of something to a thread created by someone who already defined how THEY are using the concept for their own discussion. They could use the term old school, banana, flibbertigibbet, bumfizzle ... it matters not. You interpret meaning and discuss the point of the topic or else your response is wasting everyone's time.

OP starts with "Old School and First Generation mmoprg's are two different things."

OP is clearly wrong for reasons several have stated.

/end thread

Old School "should" mean First Generation...... But I could easily say 60% or more here associate Old School with broken and bad UI instead of a "style of play".

Example:
Game X is a new Old School game coming out in 2018 ?...... I'll never play a game like that. I could never go back to a buggy game with bad dated graphics, where I have to open 5 menus to see something in my inventory.

It's the association attached to the phrase "Old School".

OP is clearly right for several reasons stated.

/now end of thread

cameltosis · January 2018

delete5230 said:

Kyleran said:

Tamanous said:

kjempff said:

Everyone has their own perception of what the term old school means, and those definitions are so different and people so stuck to it that it all discussion end in misunderstanding except from those who are on the same level.

Some (myself included) think of old school as the spirit of mmos at a certain point, but not the graphics or a lot of specific mechanics. Others think of the same games but put a lot of weight on specific mechanics to define it (obviously when I try to discuss with them it just leads to misunderstandings).
Other only see the surface and aestetics and to them old school just means old and dated because that is the direction mmos have de/e-volved fast. Others again never played a mmo pre wow and doesn't realize that wow/eq2 was the start of the themepark era and fundamentally different (even though some mechanics are the same), and obviously does not communicate well with players who experienced/analysed pre wow mmos. And of course a lot of bias added to personal definitions, and trying to bend discussions and definitions to their preferences..
So, since we can't really include a 10 pager trying to describe what we mean by this and that, then old school and a lot of other definitions are nearly impossible to have a meaningful discussion about.

And this is why communication fails. You support semantic disputes and fail to realize that you do NOT apply YOUR definition of something to a thread created by someone who already defined how THEY are using the concept for their own discussion. They could use the term old school, banana, flibbertigibbet, bumfizzle ... it matters not. You interpret meaning and discuss the point of the topic or else your response is wasting everyone's time.

OP starts with "Old School and First Generation mmoprg's are two different things."

OP is clearly wrong for reasons several have stated.

/end thread

Old School "should" mean First Generation...... But I could easily say 60% or more here associate Old School with broken and bad UI instead of a "style of play".

Example:
Game X is a new Old School game coming out in 2018 ?...... I'll never play a game like that. I could never go back to a buggy game with bad dated graphics, where I have to open 5 menus to see something in my inventory.

It's the association attached to the phrase "Old School".

OP is clearly right for several reasons stated.

/now end of thread

Purely anecdotal, but my experience is the exact opposite of yours.

Myself and everyone I've ever spoken to about it associates "old school" with the common design philosophy of older MMOs - social, virtual worlds, long progression etc - whilst 1st gen is more commonly associated with the bad stuff - the bugs, the terrible UI, the clunky combat etc.

postlarval · January 2018

Old-school = a game I used to play and thought it was amazing...only because I didn't know any better.

Rose colored glasses = the favored attire of old-school devotees.

SavageHorizon · January 2018

postlarval said:

Old-school = a game I used to play and thought it was amazing...only because I didn't know any better.

Rose colored glasses = the favored attire of old-school devotees.

What the fuck is it to you how some people remember old mmo's.

Kyleran · January 2018

postlarval said:

Old-school = a game I used to play and thought it was amazing...only because I didn't know any better.

Rose colored glasses = the favored attire of old-school devotees.

Also the favorite straw-man argument used by the intentionally obtuse.

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Old School...Such a bad phrase

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Old School...Such a bad phrase

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Definition of old-school

Definition of old-school

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV