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Why are bigger developers scared to make an Old School MMO.

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited January 2018
    delete.

    I am trying to delte these I want zero conversation about me if possible, topic only
    Post edited by SEANMCAD on
    KyleranEponyxDamorpostlarval

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  • BladeburaibaBladeburaiba Member UncommonPosts: 132
    If there's big money to be made, companies will do it.  Public companies are obligated to, or people will lose their cushy jobs, even if it becomes unethical, or borderline illegal.  Trust this. Obviously not everyone is an innovator, so they usually do what they know.

    Big time companies know there isn't BIG money in the old style MMOs, the kind of money that lets them keep their jobs.  The amount of money companies spend on product analysis, polls, data analysis, and actual results is enormous, and it's telling them a big fat "NO."

    If you like those kind of games, great.  You just have to accept that you are not the desired demographics anymore.  You are niche, no matter what it seems like on these websites.


  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    There are a lot of things about old school games that I like.

    Just if the top of my head:

    I like the alternate advancement (AA) in EverQuest not so much in Everquest 2. This gives me literally thousands of other abilities skills whatever so it seems that I never stopped advancing my character not just gear. 

    Sometimes I like the slow leveling pace sometimes you just need a break from Fast Pace.

    I would like to see some of these Concepts brought into newer games especially the AA.
    [Deleted User]AlBQuirkyTindale111Hawkaya399
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • OnomasOnomas Member UncommonPosts: 1,147
    Simply, MMORPG's were for adults. Since adults didn't have the time to play all day, for obvious reasons, they targeted the younger generation. And since the younger generations are the gimme now generation, they had to simplify the MMO's. WoW did this perfectly, and everyone has been chasing that dream since then. Problem is all the games lost what it meant to be a true MMORPG, and they just suck now.

    Then taking into account in 2000, only 6% of the world population had internet service, and of that a fraction were gamer's. So even saying games like SWG which sold 720 k copies with inflation and the mass increase in internet users and gamer's, technically the older styles games were more of a hit than this new generation junk.

    There is no longevity in newer games, no reward, just the same rush to the end, pay for your gear, and beat up on newbies. This is all that MMORPG's are today.
    Steelhelm
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    edited January 2018
    People have been saying there is no longevity in new MMO's since just after wow launched and yet somehow they are still around.
    [Deleted User]RobsolfMrMelGibson
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • OnomasOnomas Member UncommonPosts: 1,147
    wow isnt a new mmo  ;)
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    VicusEQ said:
    Not a rant.  Just don't understand it fully. 
    Well, look at it this way, would you invest a sizable amount in a video game company making "an old school game?"

    For example, Visionary Realms is making Pantheon which is supposed to hearken back to old school game mechanics, be more group centric, etc.

    Would you give 10k + dollars to help develop that? Not only would you get on the ground floor but they are looking for investors, they haven mention it on their web page.

    And if you did do you think you would get a decent return on investment?

    If you do then go, run, and invest in their company!

    If you don't then why? And if that "why" is that you don't think you would make your money back or its too risky then that's your answer.
    RobsolfMrMelGibson
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  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Sovrath said:
    VicusEQ said:
    Not a rant.  Just don't understand it fully. 
    Well, look at it this way, would you invest a sizable amount in a video game company making "an old school game?"

    For example, Visionary Realms is making Pantheon which is supposed to hearken back to old school game mechanics, be more group centric, etc.

    Would you give 10k + dollars to help develop that? Not only would you get on the ground floor but they are looking for investors, they haven mention it on their web page.

    And if you did do you think you would get a decent return on investment?

    If you do then go, run, and invest in their company!

    If you don't then why? And if that "why" is that you don't think you would make your money back or its too risky then that's your answer.
    To be fair I don't think you are going to receive any of the profits unless there is some kind of stock.  You are just investing in something so that you can enjoy playing it when it releases.  I invested a small amount of money.  If enough people invest a small amount hopefully that will be enough to get it through development.  I'm not really certain if that's the case though.  I don't think any game is worth 10,000 dollars to me unless I have billions of dollars to spend and I don't.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855
    edited January 2018
    Becasue MMORPGs are expensive and if the old school MMOs had a 6 figure population, it was considered successful. This is deemed unacceptable now.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    edited January 2018
    Flyte27 said:
    Sovrath said:
    VicusEQ said:
    Not a rant.  Just don't understand it fully. 
    Well, look at it this way, would you invest a sizable amount in a video game company making "an old school game?"

    For example, Visionary Realms is making Pantheon which is supposed to hearken back to old school game mechanics, be more group centric, etc.

    Would you give 10k + dollars to help develop that? Not only would you get on the ground floor but they are looking for investors, they haven mention it on their web page.

    And if you did do you think you would get a decent return on investment?

    If you do then go, run, and invest in their company!

    If you don't then why? And if that "why" is that you don't think you would make your money back or its too risky then that's your answer.
    To be fair I don't think you are going to receive any of the profits unless there is some kind of stock.  You are just investing in something so that you can enjoy playing it when it releases.  I invested a small amount of money.  If enough people invest a small amount hopefully that will be enough to get it through development.  I'm not really certain if that's the case though.  I don't think any game is worth 10,000 dollars to me unless I have billions of dollars to spend and I don't.
    No, I'm not talking about players giving a large amount of money in crowdfunding. I'm talking about actual investment. They mention that if you want to become an investor you can contact them.

    Here, this is how they start that blurb:

    Investment Opportunities

    If you are an accredited investor

    Now, this doesn't mean that you are I can just give them money. You need to prove that you make a certain amount or have a certain amount or that your job gives you appropriate experience.

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/accreditedinvestor.asp

    So then if he or anyone can become an accredited investor then  ... ?

    "I" wouldn't. Even if I was an accredited investor I would not invest in a video game company. Yes, some have done well but looking at other companies around the same time one could have made more money with the x amount of dollars.

    Too risky for my blood and I don't think the return would be worth it.




    KyleranRobsolfMrMelGibson
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    edited January 2018
    Sovrath said:
    Flyte27 said:
    Sovrath said:
    VicusEQ said:
    Not a rant.  Just don't understand it fully. 
    Well, look at it this way, would you invest a sizable amount in a video game company making "an old school game?"

    For example, Visionary Realms is making Pantheon which is supposed to hearken back to old school game mechanics, be more group centric, etc.

    Would you give 10k + dollars to help develop that? Not only would you get on the ground floor but they are looking for investors, they haven mention it on their web page.

    And if you did do you think you would get a decent return on investment?

    If you do then go, run, and invest in their company!

    If you don't then why? And if that "why" is that you don't think you would make your money back or its too risky then that's your answer.
    To be fair I don't think you are going to receive any of the profits unless there is some kind of stock.  You are just investing in something so that you can enjoy playing it when it releases.  I invested a small amount of money.  If enough people invest a small amount hopefully that will be enough to get it through development.  I'm not really certain if that's the case though.  I don't think any game is worth 10,000 dollars to me unless I have billions of dollars to spend and I don't.
    No, I'm not talking about players giving a large amount of money in crowdfunding. I'm talking about actual investment. They mention that if you want to become an investor you can contact them.

    Here, this is how they start that blurb:

    Investment Opportunities

    If you are an accredited investor

    Now, this doesn't mean that you are I can just give them money. You need to prove that you make a certain amount or have a certain amount or that your job gives you appropriate experience.

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/accreditedinvestor.asp

    So then if he or anyone can become an accredited investor then  ... ?

    "I" wouldn't. Even if I was an accredited investor I would not invest in a video game company. Yes, some have done well but looking at other companies around the same time one could have made more money with the x amount of dollars.

    Too risky for my blood and I don't think the return would be worth it.




    Agreed, if I had a wealthy blood relative with $50M to invest which he wanted to launde... I mean invest into "gaming" and asked for my advice I could not in good conscience recommend they invest in old school MMORPGs.

    Especially if his name was "Uncle Vito"

    ;)
    SovrathRobsolfMrMelGibsonPhoebes

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • HarikenHariken Member EpicPosts: 2,680
    Forgrimm said:
    There's no money in it. And the development time and budget required for an MMORPG is enormous.
    This and the fact is all gamers do is complain online trashing the game because it does not give them what they think is important. Big companies have had enough of trying to keep everyone happy. Put out new content and people with no life finish it in hours then go back online complaining they have nothing to do.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    edited January 2018
    SEANMCAD said:
    guys I dont want to get banned for all your insult exchange so please stop
    Hmm, no one is insulting "you" @SEANMCAD, you didn't start/reply to this thread with one of your alt accounts and then make a mistake here did you?

    It's suspicious....  ;)
    ScorchienVengeSunsoarRexKushmanMadFrenchieRobsolfMrMelGibsonPhoebes

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited January 2018
    delete

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    edited January 2018
    Nm. Not worth it.
    Sovrath
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • GolelornGolelorn Member RarePosts: 1,395
    TLDR.

    But curious what makes it old school to you? No one is going to play the slow paced games that DAoC and EQ once were. 

    I think the genre has finally started to get over its WoW game obsession, and we are moving in the right direction.
    Hawkaya399
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited January 2018
    delete

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • BLNXBLNX Member UncommonPosts: 275
    It's good to see another thread hijacked by @SEANMCAD
    In the King's Court, I choose to be the Jester.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    BLNX said:
    It's good to see another thread hijacked by @SEANMCAD
    seriously lets not do this, I went ahead and deleted everything I said in this conversation lets stick to the topic and not get personal please


    [Deleted User]

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  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,292
    The title of this post shows both bias, and lack of understanding:

    Why are bigger developers scared to make an Old School MMO.

    It is sorta like asking, why is NASA scared to put dogs in space? The answer is obvious, it is not about fear, it is about need. The Russians put a dog in space as part of the process to develop space travel... but there is not any scientific or developmental reason to do this anymore, as they have moved past that stage.

    The same applies to MMO's. There is not any need to make an old school MMO as they have moved past that point in both development, and market sales. Those products are basically obsolete, and they don't see any reason to make a product that would not sell on todays market.

    DaikuruMendel
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    They have made oldschool MMOs. No one played them. The biggest example is Vanguard. Even when it got fixed, barely anyone played it. Has nothing to do with launch. 

    There were huge campaigns on various sites and forums (including mmorpg.com, and massively (the old massively) to get people to join. Sometimes up to 1000 people would be on a server (judging by the biggest guild on the server, which would have up to 500 people on at one time, it was crazy. So 1000 is probably way too low overall) during a player recruitment campaign so it had nothing to do with a lack of people.

    Everyone who played and tried it, even when game was fixed, stopped playing it. Not because the game was dead, because that would be false when there were probably thousands playing during a recruitment campaign. No one wanted that oldschool experience. A few people stayed, but barely any.

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  • BLNXBLNX Member UncommonPosts: 275
    They have made oldschool MMOs. No one played them. The biggest example is Vanguard. Even when it got fixed, barely anyone played it. Has nothing to do with launch. 

    There were huge campaigns on various sites and forums (including mmorpg.com, and massively (the old massively) to get people to join. Sometimes up to 1000 people would be on a server (judging by the biggest guild on the server, which would have up to 500 people on at one time, it was crazy. So 1000 is probably way too low overall) during a player recruitment campaign so it had nothing to do with a lack of people.

    Everyone who played and tried it, even when game was fixed, stopped playing it. Not because the game was dead, because that would be false when there were probably thousands playing during a recruitment campaign. No one wanted that oldschool experience. A few people stayed, but barely any.
    Not to mention even if you still do want that experience, crowdfunded MMOs are willing to sell you your dream, just as soon as they get a few more donations.

    I doubt AAA companies are ignoring pleas for this revival. If the "majority" had a real market share we'd at least see a crappy version of a revival other than class and time-locked servers.
    In the King's Court, I choose to be the Jester.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,600
    VicusEQ said:
    you've been given plenty of answers, now tell us why they should
    I already have.  Games like vanguard and darkfall had sold over 200,000 copies when they launched (Vanguard 242,000 and Darkfall over 200k Worldwide).  These were games that were sold mostly because of the style of game and ofcourse the Brad's name being so strong from EQ.  BOTH these games were unfinished jokes of a real product that could never recover from their horrible starts.  They did not have a real dev team (vanguard had a better one but was released to early..we all know the story).  If these games had real funding that would allow them to be released as a full product at start it would of been a different story.  Those 200k would rave about the game.  Reviews would of been positive and thats how you go from 200k to 2mil +.  

    Going back to FFXIV.  This was a HUGE franchise and the original version of FFXIV sold 630k copies it's first week.  Then their numbers went down to less then 40k players playing because they saw how horrible and broke it was.  They remade it to the WoW clone it is and then it's 10mil strong.

    So my answer is that if someone puts out a REAL true sequal or a legit old school style game that has a legit dev team able to keep up with the game, it would be a very profitable game.
    But Final Fantasy is a big brand that is played world wide.  Vanguard or darkfall have no brand.

    There are more people playing ESO just because of skyrim.  Having a brand is what helped them.  No one would give FF14 a second chance if it is run by a no brand company.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    AAAMEOW said:
    VicusEQ said:
    you've been given plenty of answers, now tell us why they should
    I already have.  Games like vanguard and darkfall had sold over 200,000 copies when they launched (Vanguard 242,000 and Darkfall over 200k Worldwide).  These were games that were sold mostly because of the style of game and ofcourse the Brad's name being so strong from EQ.  BOTH these games were unfinished jokes of a real product that could never recover from their horrible starts.  They did not have a real dev team (vanguard had a better one but was released to early..we all know the story).  If these games had real funding that would allow them to be released as a full product at start it would of been a different story.  Those 200k would rave about the game.  Reviews would of been positive and thats how you go from 200k to 2mil +.  

    Going back to FFXIV.  This was a HUGE franchise and the original version of FFXIV sold 630k copies it's first week.  Then their numbers went down to less then 40k players playing because they saw how horrible and broke it was.  They remade it to the WoW clone it is and then it's 10mil strong.

    So my answer is that if someone puts out a REAL true sequal or a legit old school style game that has a legit dev team able to keep up with the game, it would be a very profitable game.
    But Final Fantasy is a big brand that is played world wide.  Vanguard or darkfall have no brand.

    There are more people playing ESO just because of skyrim.  Having a brand is what helped them.  No one would give FF14 a second chance if it is run by a no brand company.

    People play MMORPGs because of their brand but otherwise wouldn't bother? 

    Isn't that a lot like saying if not for the labels on them, people wouldn't wear clothes?

    Weird. 

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • Sector13Sector13 Member UncommonPosts: 784
    "old school MMO" ie. sit around for hours waiting to continue to play the game and getting griefed by assholes who gathered on some forum cause they have nothing better to do since the game has little content after you leveled up which takes over a year due to the slow grind and time between getting shit done ... wow I wonder why no one wants to do that ... 
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