First things first, don't blame PvP. Combat is shit across the board, not just in PvE.
Second, I agree with your general sentiment - combat is too easy in most modern MMOs.
Third, the issue is to do with the overall design of modern MMOs, not just changes to combat.
The genre has moved away from the "virtual world" concept completely. MMOs are no longer social experiments where developers are genuinely trying to find interesting ways to interact with each other. That time has ended. There is a far larger market for minimally multiplayer games - a large RPG where you get to show off your outfits every now and again - and so developers are naturally building games for that larger market.
The shift to solo-focused gameplay has resulted in a massive dumbing down. They've removed a lot of class interdependence, because if you are a solo player, there is noone to rely on! Devs must make sure that all classes are roughly balanced for solo too, so that you can pick any class and still level to cap with ease. Balancing for solo has resulted in a lot of homogenisation, which sucks.
The shift to solo focused MMOs has meant a greater reliance on solo RPG mechanics, namely vast vertical progression and streamlined stories. This is something we love in our solo RPGs - getting new gear with epic stats! It's exciting and fun, but it only works in a solo environment where everything is tightly controlled. In an MMO, it breaks everything. You have to balance content around the lowest common denominator (otherwise they quit), but when the difference in power between the lowest and the average is so vast, it makes everything super easy for just about everyone.
Finally, the shift to action combat has dramatically reduced the difficulty. Action combat requires virtually no brain power - its not exactly hard to dodge or select one of five skills - so if you are the sort of player that enjoys intellectual challenge, you're shit out of luck. Action combat does involve more physical difficulty (quick reactions, good aiming) and players claim it's more immersive / visceral, but for me I'm just bored stiff by nearly all action combat games.
So, I sit and wait. I try out new MMOs to see if they're fun, but they aren't. My only hope currently is Camelot Unchained - it's going back to tab-targetting with tons of skills, loads of class interdependence, proper resource management as well as collision detection. Also has the added benefit of using horizontal progression and being designed with grouping in mind, so the combat should be really fun. Only problem is its pretty much pure PvP, so if you aren't a PvPer it won't be for you.
In proper terms what MMOs tend to captivate people with ends up not being the combat, some do have quite cool combat mechanics but it seems people just meh at it and look for other shinies instead.
Guys, you all seem to get it. It seems you all agree with what I'm saying. Yes, the current state of mmo combat is ridiculously easy, mind numbing, pathetic.
My question still lies generally unanswered though. What is the draw of these "top" mmos? What are people getting out of them to fill up their servers? We can't argue with the success of these games. Obviously there is something more to them than the horrible combat of the PVE leveling experience. I want to know what that is for the people that play these games.
How do they feel just fine that their character never takes damage or comes close to dying? That skill #2 doesn't really need to be used when they can just spam skill #1.
I just closed out BDO again. I TRIED to level up my warrior a bit on there. Tried to round up and pull dozens of mobs at once. Of course, more than half of them de-aggroed. I stood there for a second or 2, trying to decide which cool attack animation I'd like to use to slaughter them all. They beat of me for a couple of seconds.....HP never went down past 90%!!!! WTF?! Come on people...10 mobs my level, all beating on me at once, and I have ZERO risk of dying! I can get over the quick kills, but seriously? I even climbed some wizard tower, and decided to jump off the top. HP went down to HALF. Closest I've even come to dying, and it was from jumping off a building that's 100 feet tall!
I have been on a Soulsborne/Nioh kick for a while. Where each and every fight you can die easily if you aren't careful. I don't need that kind of combat really in an mmo. I just want a BIT of a challenge!
There has never been a pve mmo that had even half the challenge of those games.
I think you are spoiled
Either go pvp or just continue to play those games.
For example, mmorpg's just don't have the exploration that I crave so I predominantly play Skyrim and Morrowind. And "no" Elder Scrolls Online doesn't have great exploration.
Yes, ESO does have great exploration, tons of chests and shards and things to find at every corner of the map, Treasure maps where you see a picture and have to go EXPLORE and find what you saw on the map to find the treasure, events that have you find locations and participate in events, lots of great exploring in it.
Sorry, no it doesn't. I've played it, I've gone out in the world and it's not that great.
I get more in 15 minutes of, say Morrowind, than an hour in Elder Scrolls Online. The Dungeons are pretty lackluster as well.
Believe me, there is no one who wants to like the game more than I as I spend years playing the Elder Scrolls games and would LOVE to have a main character in a constantly expanding world.
But I have to really press on in order to get anything out of the game. Good that you like it though.
It's certainly not on the level of a single-player Elder Scrolls game but anyone who was expecting that wasn't very bright to begin with.
I have been on a Soulsborne/Nioh kick for a while. Where each and every fight you can die easily if you aren't careful. I don't need that kind of combat really in an mmo. I just want a BIT of a challenge!
There has never been a pve mmo that had even half the challenge of those games.
I think you are spoiled
Either go pvp or just continue to play those games.
For example, mmorpg's just don't have the exploration that I crave so I predominantly play Skyrim and Morrowind. And "no" Elder Scrolls Online doesn't have great exploration.
Yes, ESO does have great exploration, tons of chests and shards and things to find at every corner of the map, Treasure maps where you see a picture and have to go EXPLORE and find what you saw on the map to find the treasure, events that have you find locations and participate in events, lots of great exploring in it.
Sorry, no it doesn't. I've played it, I've gone out in the world and it's not that great.
I get more in 15 minutes of, say Morrowind, than an hour in Elder Scrolls Online. The Dungeons are pretty lackluster as well.
Believe me, there is no one who wants to like the game more than I as I spend years playing the Elder Scrolls games and would LOVE to have a main character in a constantly expanding world.
But I have to really press on in order to get anything out of the game. Good that you like it though.
It's certainly not on the level of a single-player Elder Scrolls game but anyone who was expecting that wasn't very bright to begin with.
hmmm, hmmmm nice backhand insult.
I won't return the favor however.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think it goes without saying that almost all of the flaws with MMOs, in general, comes down to two particular issues: Latency and AI.
There's just really nothing that can truly be done about latency. Latency equates to slower, more telegraphed enemy attacks, etc.
The issue with more challenging AI is that most people really don't want to play hard games, and in MMOs you are stuck catering to the general population. If the AI can learn and adapt, then it quickly becomes better than the players(too hard and frustrating). If it can't, then players quickly figure out how to exploit and dominate it without much effort(where we are now).
In bold, I couldn't agree more. I have been saying that AI would have to become adaptive, able to pattern detect and change strategy on the fly. Sure the technology for that isn't quite there yet and it would consume a ton of resources to do that. I think there needs to be varying degrees of adaptability spread across the entire scope of the game. I have thought about this quite extensively and I do believe adaptive AI that could pattern detect from a ton of conditions is the next generation for PVE combat.
A concept like this could provide depth to gameplay. You would have to reconsider the approach to the trinity gameplay model. (Not necessarily omit it entirely)
I do agree with the OP that combat in mmo's is the majority of gameplay. Personally I don't mind that at all. I am a very offensive minded person so combat and grinding is okay with me, depending on the class design/combat of course lol. Combat has been super one dimensional with a singular rotational gameplay as well which also becomes stale. That's why I can only play WoW segments at a time.
So in essence the only way combat will change in this genre is if the AI also changes with it. I would love to see a group based PVE heavy mmo that doesn't rely on heavy class composition in most facets of content but for higher level areas it does. A game that focuses on player groups vs. NPC groups, with a new approach to the trinity gameplay model that provides tactical strategy of your group composition with adaptable AI.
I think it goes without saying that almost all of the flaws with MMOs, in general, comes down to two particular issues: Latency and AI.
There's just really nothing that can truly be done about latency. Latency equates to slower, more telegraphed enemy attacks, etc.
The issue with more challenging AI is that most people really don't want to play hard games, and in MMOs you are stuck catering to the general population. If the AI can learn and adapt, then it quickly becomes better than the players(too hard and frustrating). If it can't, then players quickly figure out how to exploit and dominate it without much effort(where we are now).
In bold, I couldn't agree more. I have been saying that AI would have to become adaptive, able to pattern detect and change strategy on the fly. Sure the technology for that isn't quite there yet and it would consume a ton of resources to do that. I think there needs to be varying degrees of adaptability spread across the entire scope of the game. I have thought about this quite extensively and I do believe adaptive AI that could pattern detect from a ton of conditions is the next generation for PVE combat.
A concept like this could provide depth to gameplay. You would have to reconsider the approach to the trinity gameplay model. (Not necessarily omit it entirely)
I do agree with the OP that combat in mmo's is the majority of gameplay. Personally I don't mind that at all. I am a very offensive minded person so combat and grinding is okay with me, depending on the class design/combat of course lol. Combat has been super one dimensional with a singular rotational gameplay as well which also becomes stale. That's why I can only play WoW segments at a time.
So in essence the only way combat will change in this genre is if the AI also changes with it. I would love to see a group based PVE heavy mmo that doesn't rely on heavy class composition in most facets of content but for higher level areas it does. A game that focuses on player groups vs. NPC groups, with a new approach to the trinity gameplay model that provides tactical strategy of your group composition with adaptable AI.
This is why I was excited for EQN. Even if it didn't deliver on everything it promised there would at least be a precedent set.
My question still lies generally unanswered though. What is the draw of these "top" mmos? What are people getting out of them to fill up their servers? We can't argue with the success of these games. Obviously there is something more to them than the horrible combat of the PVE leveling experience. I want to know what that is for the people that play these games.
1) Story
This has become a bigger and bigger focus on MMORPGs in modern times. The stories are bigger, longer and better presented than ever before and many people just like working through the stories themselves.
2) Progression
Every time you get a level up, a new skill, a new piece of gear etc, our brains release a small amount of dopamine which makes us feel good. Modern MMOs hit you with these minor dopamine hits on a much more regular basis than older MMOs. It becomes addictive.
It doesn't seem to matter that progression is mostly an illusion - your numbers get bigger, sure, but then so do the enemy's, so comparatively things stay the same. This is especially true with all the scaling tech that's in place now. The only "real" progression tends to come with new skills or traits, but with the move to action combat there is very little of this left.
3) Showing off / customisation
I have no actual numbers for this, only anecdotal, but it seems to me that a very large percentage of the casual player crowd really enjoy customising the aesthetics of their characters. There is so much loot to choose from and wardrobes / cosmetic outfits / transmog etc lets us choose virtually any look we want without sacrificing stats. A lot of people will spend hours / days just hunting down rare cosmetics to perfect their look, or will spend an entire evening just in the character creator with no real intention of ever properly playing that character.
With these things in mind, you can see that combat difficulty is immaterial, in fact, the easier the combat, the quicker they consume the content they actually enjoy. People who play games purely for relaxation (which is the majority of the casual crowd, which is the largest crowd) don't want challenge. They want to be able to pick up a game, turn it on and be guaranteed some fun without getting stressed. They don't want to learn the mechanics inside out, they don't want to perfect their rotations or learn best how to play in a group. That is a lot of effort to put into a game up front, but if you're playing just for relaxation you don't want to have to put in that effort.
I personally don't believe this is the right way to go. I believe it is possible to create a game with a combat system that is easy to begin with but slowly ramps up over time, teaching players along the way. However, designing such a combat system is difficult and time consuming and if you get it wrong (i.e. too challenging) you end up driving off the large casual market.
I think it goes without saying that almost all of the flaws with MMOs, in general, comes down to two particular issues: Latency and AI.
There's just really nothing that can truly be done about latency. Latency equates to slower, more telegraphed enemy attacks, etc.
The issue with more challenging AI is that most people really don't want to play hard games, and in MMOs you are stuck catering to the general population. If the AI can learn and adapt, then it quickly becomes better than the players(too hard and frustrating). If it can't, then players quickly figure out how to exploit and dominate it without much effort(where we are now).
In bold, I couldn't agree more. I have been saying that AI would have to become adaptive, able to pattern detect and change strategy on the fly. Sure the technology for that isn't quite there yet and it would consume a ton of resources to do that. I think there needs to be varying degrees of adaptability spread across the entire scope of the game. I have thought about this quite extensively and I do believe adaptive AI that could pattern detect from a ton of conditions is the next generation for PVE combat.
A concept like this could provide depth to gameplay. You would have to reconsider the approach to the trinity gameplay model. (Not necessarily omit it entirely)
I do agree with the OP that combat in mmo's is the majority of gameplay. Personally I don't mind that at all. I am a very offensive minded person so combat and grinding is okay with me, depending on the class design/combat of course lol. Combat has been super one dimensional with a singular rotational gameplay as well which also becomes stale. That's why I can only play WoW segments at a time.
So in essence the only way combat will change in this genre is if the AI also changes with it. I would love to see a group based PVE heavy mmo that doesn't rely on heavy class composition in most facets of content but for higher level areas it does. A game that focuses on player groups vs. NPC groups, with a new approach to the trinity gameplay model that provides tactical strategy of your group composition with adaptable AI.
That sounds great. And yes, I agree AI restrictions are probably what's holding companies back from making a more dynamic mmo combat system.
However, we don't have to have an amazing emergent AI system to have more difficult combat. the older mmos did it just fine. It was argued earlier this thread that maybe it wasn't really "difficult" but rather "punishing" if you made mistakes. Well, whatever works is what I say! I can give many different scenerios (EQ again) that was quite difficult, group or solo. Just leveling.
There's another thread about MMO difficulty though. That's not really what this one is about. I mean, it's similar. But the point of this thread is more of a "call out" to the people that are playing these "top" games. What are they doing in them that makes them want to log in every day and play for hours? Apparently they aren't alone in whatever drives them because these games are the most popular mmos out there right now. How is it they ignore the atrocities of the faceroll combat systems, when fighting is the vast majority of the game??
Are they high or drunk when they play, so therefore it doesn't matter what they are doing?
The point being, apparently I'm missing something. SOMETHING is compelling these people to play these games. What is it?? I want some! Give me a slice of that! I'll pay for it. Take my money.
Go to youtube. Watch videos of GW2 solo dungeon. Now try to mimic what people's doing and beat's the clear time.
When I used to play Wow, I find some of the raid really difficult. If only the whole game is difficult.
There is nothing wrong with the combat, the problem is monster hit like peanuts. Instead of taking like 3% of your health per hit in most of the game, it should take 30%.
Go to youtube. Watch videos of GW2 solo dungeon. Now try to mimic what people's doing and beat's the clear time.
When I used to play Wow, I find some of the raid really difficult. If only the whole game is difficult.
There is nothing wrong with the combat, the problem is monster hit like peanuts. Instead of taking like 3% of your health per hit in most of the game, it should take 30%.
Some people just don't like "action combat". I prefer it. However, I also prefer something more akin to Mount and Blade or Dragon's Dogma over the ultra fast light shows that some games offer.
I would much prefer to dodge and block and find an opening than tab and rely on dice rolls.
The key word there is "prefer". I can make due with tab targeting combat as long as I don't have 20k skills, many of them dependent on "just the right situation".
I do however agree that the opponents should take more health from you. Sort of like Dark Souls combat.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
My question still lies generally unanswered though. What is the draw of these "top" mmos? What are people getting out of them to fill up their servers? We can't argue with the success of these games. Obviously there is something more to them than the horrible combat of the PVE leveling experience. I want to know what that is for the people that play these games.
1) Story
This has become a bigger and bigger focus on MMORPGs in modern times. The stories are bigger, longer and better presented than ever before and many people just like working through the stories themselves.
2) Progression
Every time you get a level up, a new skill, a new piece of gear etc, our brains release a small amount of dopamine which makes us feel good. Modern MMOs hit you with these minor dopamine hits on a much more regular basis than older MMOs. It becomes addictive.
It doesn't seem to matter that progression is mostly an illusion - your numbers get bigger, sure, but then so do the enemy's, so comparatively things stay the same. This is especially true with all the scaling tech that's in place now. The only "real" progression tends to come with new skills or traits, but with the move to action combat there is very little of this left.
3) Showing off / customisation
I have no actual numbers for this, only anecdotal, but it seems to me that a very large percentage of the casual player crowd really enjoy customising the aesthetics of their characters. There is so much loot to choose from and wardrobes / cosmetic outfits / transmog etc lets us choose virtually any look we want without sacrificing stats. A lot of people will spend hours / days just hunting down rare cosmetics to perfect their look, or will spend an entire evening just in the character creator with no real intention of ever properly playing that character.
With these things in mind, you can see that combat difficulty is immaterial, in fact, the easier the combat, the quicker they consume the content they actually enjoy. People who play games purely for relaxation (which is the majority of the casual crowd, which is the largest crowd) don't want challenge. They want to be able to pick up a game, turn it on and be guaranteed some fun without getting stressed. They don't want to learn the mechanics inside out, they don't want to perfect their rotations or learn best how to play in a group. That is a lot of effort to put into a game up front, but if you're playing just for relaxation you don't want to have to put in that effort.
I personally don't believe this is the right way to go. I believe it is possible to create a game with a combat system that is easy to begin with but slowly ramps up over time, teaching players along the way. However, designing such a combat system is difficult and time consuming and if you get it wrong (i.e. too challenging) you end up driving off the large casual market.
Thank you. That's a good answer to my questions.
So what you are saying, is the people playing these games now are mindless idiots who just got home from work, and want to just "relax". No challenge, no thinking. Just dopamine addicts. Hurry and get the levels...and loot...and pretty clothes...faster...faster...FASTER!
My question still lies generally unanswered though. What is the draw of these "top" mmos? What are people getting out of them to fill up their servers? We can't argue with the success of these games. Obviously there is something more to them than the horrible combat of the PVE leveling experience. I want to know what that is for the people that play these games.
1) Story
This has become a bigger and bigger focus on MMORPGs in modern times. The stories are bigger, longer and better presented than ever before and many people just like working through the stories themselves.
2) Progression
Every time you get a level up, a new skill, a new piece of gear etc, our brains release a small amount of dopamine which makes us feel good. Modern MMOs hit you with these minor dopamine hits on a much more regular basis than older MMOs. It becomes addictive.
It doesn't seem to matter that progression is mostly an illusion - your numbers get bigger, sure, but then so do the enemy's, so comparatively things stay the same. This is especially true with all the scaling tech that's in place now. The only "real" progression tends to come with new skills or traits, but with the move to action combat there is very little of this left.
3) Showing off / customisation
I have no actual numbers for this, only anecdotal, but it seems to me that a very large percentage of the casual player crowd really enjoy customising the aesthetics of their characters. There is so much loot to choose from and wardrobes / cosmetic outfits / transmog etc lets us choose virtually any look we want without sacrificing stats. A lot of people will spend hours / days just hunting down rare cosmetics to perfect their look, or will spend an entire evening just in the character creator with no real intention of ever properly playing that character.
With these things in mind, you can see that combat difficulty is immaterial, in fact, the easier the combat, the quicker they consume the content they actually enjoy. People who play games purely for relaxation (which is the majority of the casual crowd, which is the largest crowd) don't want challenge. They want to be able to pick up a game, turn it on and be guaranteed some fun without getting stressed. They don't want to learn the mechanics inside out, they don't want to perfect their rotations or learn best how to play in a group. That is a lot of effort to put into a game up front, but if you're playing just for relaxation you don't want to have to put in that effort.
I personally don't believe this is the right way to go. I believe it is possible to create a game with a combat system that is easy to begin with but slowly ramps up over time, teaching players along the way. However, designing such a combat system is difficult and time consuming and if you get it wrong (i.e. too challenging) you end up driving off the large casual market.
Thank you. That's a good answer to my questions.
So what you are saying, is the people playing these games now are mindless idiots who just got home from work, and want to just "relax". No challenge, no thinking. Just dopamine addicts. Hurry and get the levels...and loot...and pretty clothes...faster...faster...FASTER!
I don't think that's being fair. So what if someone just wants to wind down with a little light entertainment.
Also, there is a lot to be said for "story" as he puts it. I don't think "challenge and thinking" necessarily trump "story". They are just a different focus.
Or do we need to call video game players idiots as well because "video games"?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I don't think that's being fair. So what if someone just wants to wind down with a little light entertainment.
Also, there is a lot to be said for "story" as he puts it. I don't think "challenge and thinking" necessarily trump "story". They are just a different focus.
Or do we need to call video game players idiots as well because "video games"?
Yeah, maybe it is being harsh. I mean, I like story also. I've enjoyed a lot of single player games based on story alone.
But these are MMOs. They are custom created worlds that are huge. Made specifically for you to visit and enjoy. You enjoy the scenery, you enjoy the sounds, the music. However, as with all of these types of games, combat is always there. Again, it is 70-90 percent of the game. The developers aren't always patching in new scenery, music, etc. No, they are patching in balances for combat. It's the most important part of these games. Always has been, and always will be.
So, if the combat in these games are mind numbingly easy, boring, faceroll. With zero challenge or threat of dying. Then the people that log into these games and TOLERATE the "god mode" they have on constantly just so they can experience the "stories" are IMO quite dull people.....idiots.
My question still lies generally unanswered though. What is the draw of these "top" mmos? What are people getting out of them to fill up their servers? We can't argue with the success of these games. Obviously there is something more to them than the horrible combat of the PVE leveling experience. I want to know what that is for the people that play these games.
1) Story
This has become a bigger and bigger focus on MMORPGs in modern times. The stories are bigger, longer and better presented than ever before and many people just like working through the stories themselves.
2) Progression
Every time you get a level up, a new skill, a new piece of gear etc, our brains release a small amount of dopamine which makes us feel good. Modern MMOs hit you with these minor dopamine hits on a much more regular basis than older MMOs. It becomes addictive.
It doesn't seem to matter that progression is mostly an illusion - your numbers get bigger, sure, but then so do the enemy's, so comparatively things stay the same. This is especially true with all the scaling tech that's in place now. The only "real" progression tends to come with new skills or traits, but with the move to action combat there is very little of this left.
3) Showing off / customisation
I have no actual numbers for this, only anecdotal, but it seems to me that a very large percentage of the casual player crowd really enjoy customising the aesthetics of their characters. There is so much loot to choose from and wardrobes / cosmetic outfits / transmog etc lets us choose virtually any look we want without sacrificing stats. A lot of people will spend hours / days just hunting down rare cosmetics to perfect their look, or will spend an entire evening just in the character creator with no real intention of ever properly playing that character.
With these things in mind, you can see that combat difficulty is immaterial, in fact, the easier the combat, the quicker they consume the content they actually enjoy. People who play games purely for relaxation (which is the majority of the casual crowd, which is the largest crowd) don't want challenge. They want to be able to pick up a game, turn it on and be guaranteed some fun without getting stressed. They don't want to learn the mechanics inside out, they don't want to perfect their rotations or learn best how to play in a group. That is a lot of effort to put into a game up front, but if you're playing just for relaxation you don't want to have to put in that effort.
I personally don't believe this is the right way to go. I believe it is possible to create a game with a combat system that is easy to begin with but slowly ramps up over time, teaching players along the way. However, designing such a combat system is difficult and time consuming and if you get it wrong (i.e. too challenging) you end up driving off the large casual market.
Thank you. That's a good answer to my questions.
So what you are saying, is the people playing these games now are mindless idiots who just got home from work, and want to just "relax". No challenge, no thinking. Just dopamine addicts. Hurry and get the levels...and loot...and pretty clothes...faster...faster...FASTER!
Its not that they're mindless idiots, it is just a different focus to their enjoyment.
If you are having to focus hard, make difficult combat choices, talk with group members via vent / skype etc, that requires a lot of energy and can be very stressful. You may get a greater sense of achievement from engaging in challenging content (I certainly do), but if you just want to relax then you don't want to be hyper-focused.
I don't think that's being fair. So what if someone just wants to wind down with a little light entertainment.
Also, there is a lot to be said for "story" as he puts it. I don't think "challenge and thinking" necessarily trump "story". They are just a different focus.
Or do we need to call video game players idiots as well because "video games"?
Yeah, maybe it is being harsh. I mean, I like story also. I've enjoyed a lot of single player games based on story alone.
But these are MMOs. They are custom created worlds that are huge. Made specifically for you to visit and enjoy. You enjoy the scenery, you enjoy the sounds, the music. However, as with all of these types of games, combat is always there. Again, it is 70-90 percent of the game. The developers aren't always patching in new scenery, music, etc. No, they are patching in balances for combat. It's the most important part of these games. Always has been, and always will be.
So, if the combat in these games are mind numbingly easy, boring, faceroll. With zero challenge or threat of dying. Then the people that log into these games and TOLERATE the "god mode" they have on constantly just so they can experience the "stories" are IMO quite dull people.....idiots.
Hey speaking to the choir here.
However, I don't think developers are interested in making custom created worlds "that are huge" anymore.
There's a you tube reviewer, Angry Peon, who just did a first impressions of Life is Feudal. Things that he didn't like, that I did, were just being dropped off in the middle of nowhere. He also didn't like the lack of direction. Or that the tutorial was pitch dark.
These are things I think are great. But my feeling is that just doesn't cut it anymore which is why I have to be prepared to play Indie games at some point if I want something that gives me freedom, hardship and danger.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
@op Hence why i enjoyed FFXI the most because yes combat is the most important aspect but FFXI also got the class design better than anyone else.I tried FFXIV for 6 months,had dearly hoped it was my transition game from FFXI but nope ,i did not like the class or combat design one bit.
I played those other games as you did and i did not like those designs at all,terrible in fact.
The problem is pretty simple and again why you hear people talk old school aka EQ1...FFXI is because and especially FFXI was made to group not solo.Obviously if soloing combat is super streamlined and imo super easy and even worse you are 100% hog tied and feel like you can only combat the same as everyone else.
I don't think even inside of FFXI could you find that magic moment again as the game has changed 10 fold,more catering to also solo now.However i still choose FFXI over all the rest,it is still every bit as challenging and is just much deeper overall in design.Sadly most could play FFXI and miss out on a lot because there is no hand holding.
As to your mention of "SLOW" combat as in FFXIV,that is exactly how i like combat,i despise ARPG's and what i call SPAM combat.The idea of slow allows for active and reactive turns without just one shotting mobs,maybe not 200 IQ or Einstein challenging but still offers imo a better option. I still to this day long for a new game to come along and one up FFXI but nothing is coming close,i pray for Pantheon but i highly doubt it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I do not feel it has anything to do with "not interested" i 100% believe Devs are simply aiming for CHEAPER,easier,faster to produce and less risk games,they are in it ONLY for the buck and not for the passion of game design.
If a forum user was designing a game,you know they would be passionate about the design they prefer/like,you'll at least get a quality version of that design.Devs are number crunching,their investors are pushing it out the door too fast to start making profits,catchy one dimensional gimmicks and heavy marketing is driving the market,passionate guys like John Carmack and at "one time" Smedley or my fave Tanaka are long gone it seems.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This is why I was excited for EQN. Even if it didn't deliver on everything it promised there would at least be a precedent set.
Yes, I believe they called it, "emergent AI?" I think their approach was to adapt to the environment of the zone rather than combat it self. Which I think is also warranted and would create a very immersive world. That was literally the primary thing I was looking forward to for EQN. I think EQN failed because they wanted to take popular elements from other MMO's like WoW and Minecraft and it just didn't work.
If a forum user was designing a game,you know they would be passionate about the design they prefer/like,you'll at least get a quality version of that design.Devs are number crunching,their investors are pushing it out the door too fast to start making profits,catchy one dimensional gimmicks and heavy marketing is driving the market,passionate guys like John Carmack and at "one time" Smedley or my fave Tanaka are long gone it seems.
+1 to that!
Who is to blame? The devlopers/investors that want to make more money? Or the mindless drones who clamor for "god mode" combat, so they can play, progress, and experience the entire game with a glass of wine in hand?
What came first? The "idiots"? Or the companies?
Growing up (again I'm 40 now), being a gamer was a niche thing. Other gamers wanted virtual worlds to experience and "live in". Games like the older mmos catered to us. WoW came along, and streamlined the experience a lot, but it in it's early days, was still a great game. Combat wasn't nearly as challenging as the first mmos, but still wasn't "god mode". But now, it is. The entire game is. And all mmos to come after it is.
The "old gamers" like myself, were left behind by the flood of the "idiots" who suddenly jumped into our worlds and insisted on "god mode" gameplay. So the companies delivered.
So...who are playing these new games now? My guess is it's made up of the mass of morons who complained enough to dictate these games were changed/developed to cater to them. But...where are the "old gamers"? They must be there as well...at least some of them. What drives them to play these games nowadays? How did they adapt to the faceroll of 90 percent of the game? Are they so enamored with the stories that they don't care anymore? With the brainless character progression? With seeing what looks like little girls in skimpy clothes (Asian games)? Is it PVP? Did they just quit mmos altogether (which would mean the overall population of these newer games are "idiots")?
I do not feel it has anything to do with "not interested" i 100% believe Devs are simply aiming for CHEAPER,easier,faster to produce and less risk games,they are in it ONLY for the buck and not for the passion of game design.
If a forum user was designing a game,you know they would be passionate about the design they prefer/like,you'll at least get a quality version of that design.Devs are number crunching,their investors are pushing it out the door too fast to start making profits,catchy one dimensional gimmicks and heavy marketing is driving the market,passionate guys like John Carmack and at "one time" Smedley or my fave Tanaka are long gone it seems.
I 100% disagree.
Game development seems to be a thankless sucky job. Long hard hours, pay that isn't great when compared to working in other, similar jobs in other industries. And the layoffs? Badly run companies that lay off their employees at the drop of a dime only to have them scrambling to find jobs.
I would say that the ONLY reason to work in video game development is because one is passionate about games.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
That sounds great. And yes, I agree AI restrictions are probably what's holding companies back from making a more dynamic mmo combat system.
However, we don't have to have an amazing emergent AI system to have more difficult combat. the older mmos did it just fine. It was argued earlier this thread that maybe it wasn't really "difficult" but rather "punishing" if you made mistakes. Well, whatever works is what I say! I can give many different scenerios (EQ again) that was quite difficult, group or solo. Just leveling.
There's another thread about MMO difficulty though. That's not really what this one is about. I mean, it's similar. But the point of this thread is more of a "call out" to the people that are playing these "top" games. What are they doing in them that makes them want to log in every day and play for hours? Apparently they aren't alone in whatever drives them because these games are the most popular mmos out there right now. How is it they ignore the atrocities of the faceroll combat systems, when fighting is the vast majority of the game??
Are they high or drunk when they play, so therefore it doesn't matter what they are doing?
The point being, apparently I'm missing something. SOMETHING is compelling these people to play these games. What is it?? I want some! Give me a slice of that! I'll pay for it. Take my money.
Punishing is apart of the game right? I mean Everquest did it with their game design choices. The punishments were harsh for messing up. Which I think is fine within a reasonable scope. I have played a handful of mmorpgs and everytime I run into an old EQ vet, guess what, their play stands out significantly from everyone else. I think it's simply due to the 'punishment' from Everquest. You didn't want to die because of XP loss, plus a corpse run were you can die again. You were punished for pulling aggro and being killed because mobs could quad hit and 1-2 shot you. "Punishment" for bad play is absolutely warranted. It creates an atmosphere for players to not deal with the "punishment". That is something that has escaped this new generation of mmorpgs. The lack of danger. Ultimately, in turn that creates better players because they don't want to deal with the harsh penalties because it's not efficient to do so.
Like other posters have said, the WoW rehash is there because it already has a library of gaming elements to pull from, people will soak it in because it's "familiar". Consequently, those WoW clones die because of the over saturated market. That's why I think we are getting games like Pantheon, and the MMO EQ2 team is developing. Something not of the norm.
For me as a player, I don't find combat that is one dimensional and lacks substance to be fun. It creates stale gameplay too fast.
if it was based soley on pvp it wouldn't be mostly cone/aoe attacks in these games.. it's made mostly so that you can plow through solo pve content with little to no downtime. sadly they aren't going to offer you several different styles of combat to fit your need.
I liked the exploration in conan exiles. Would be nice if the world was bigger, but oh well, it is a fun game.
Hmm, what is good combat to me.
A game where I just don't notice the combat. It's like what is good acting? If you don't notice bad acting, then the acting is good imo. So likewise, if I don't notice bad combat, then the combat is good.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
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Second, I agree with your general sentiment - combat is too easy in most modern MMOs.
Third, the issue is to do with the overall design of modern MMOs, not just changes to combat.
The genre has moved away from the "virtual world" concept completely. MMOs are no longer social experiments where developers are genuinely trying to find interesting ways to interact with each other. That time has ended. There is a far larger market for minimally multiplayer games - a large RPG where you get to show off your outfits every now and again - and so developers are naturally building games for that larger market.
The shift to solo-focused gameplay has resulted in a massive dumbing down. They've removed a lot of class interdependence, because if you are a solo player, there is noone to rely on! Devs must make sure that all classes are roughly balanced for solo too, so that you can pick any class and still level to cap with ease. Balancing for solo has resulted in a lot of homogenisation, which sucks.
The shift to solo focused MMOs has meant a greater reliance on solo RPG mechanics, namely vast vertical progression and streamlined stories. This is something we love in our solo RPGs - getting new gear with epic stats! It's exciting and fun, but it only works in a solo environment where everything is tightly controlled. In an MMO, it breaks everything. You have to balance content around the lowest common denominator (otherwise they quit), but when the difference in power between the lowest and the average is so vast, it makes everything super easy for just about everyone.
Finally, the shift to action combat has dramatically reduced the difficulty. Action combat requires virtually no brain power - its not exactly hard to dodge or select one of five skills - so if you are the sort of player that enjoys intellectual challenge, you're shit out of luck. Action combat does involve more physical difficulty (quick reactions, good aiming) and players claim it's more immersive / visceral, but for me I'm just bored stiff by nearly all action combat games.
So, I sit and wait. I try out new MMOs to see if they're fun, but they aren't. My only hope currently is Camelot Unchained - it's going back to tab-targetting with tons of skills, loads of class interdependence, proper resource management as well as collision detection. Also has the added benefit of using horizontal progression and being designed with grouping in mind, so the combat should be really fun. Only problem is its pretty much pure PvP, so if you aren't a PvPer it won't be for you.
My question still lies generally unanswered though. What is the draw of these "top" mmos? What are people getting out of them to fill up their servers? We can't argue with the success of these games. Obviously there is something more to them than the horrible combat of the PVE leveling experience. I want to know what that is for the people that play these games.
How do they feel just fine that their character never takes damage or comes close to dying? That skill #2 doesn't really need to be used when they can just spam skill #1.
I just closed out BDO again. I TRIED to level up my warrior a bit on there. Tried to round up and pull dozens of mobs at once. Of course, more than half of them de-aggroed. I stood there for a second or 2, trying to decide which cool attack animation I'd like to use to slaughter them all. They beat of me for a couple of seconds.....HP never went down past 90%!!!! WTF?! Come on people...10 mobs my level, all beating on me at once, and I have ZERO risk of dying! I can get over the quick kills, but seriously? I even climbed some wizard tower, and decided to jump off the top. HP went down to HALF. Closest I've even come to dying, and it was from jumping off a building that's 100 feet tall!
I do not get it.
I won't return the favor however.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
A concept like this could provide depth to gameplay. You would have to reconsider the approach to the trinity gameplay model. (Not necessarily omit it entirely)
I do agree with the OP that combat in mmo's is the majority of gameplay. Personally I don't mind that at all. I am a very offensive minded person so combat and grinding is okay with me, depending on the class design/combat of course lol. Combat has been super one dimensional with a singular rotational gameplay as well which also becomes stale. That's why I can only play WoW segments at a time.
So in essence the only way combat will change in this genre is if the AI also changes with it. I would love to see a group based PVE heavy mmo that doesn't rely on heavy class composition in most facets of content but for higher level areas it does. A game that focuses on player groups vs. NPC groups, with a new approach to the trinity gameplay model that provides tactical strategy of your group composition with adaptable AI.
This has become a bigger and bigger focus on MMORPGs in modern times. The stories are bigger, longer and better presented than ever before and many people just like working through the stories themselves.
2) Progression
Every time you get a level up, a new skill, a new piece of gear etc, our brains release a small amount of dopamine which makes us feel good. Modern MMOs hit you with these minor dopamine hits on a much more regular basis than older MMOs. It becomes addictive.
It doesn't seem to matter that progression is mostly an illusion - your numbers get bigger, sure, but then so do the enemy's, so comparatively things stay the same. This is especially true with all the scaling tech that's in place now. The only "real" progression tends to come with new skills or traits, but with the move to action combat there is very little of this left.
3) Showing off / customisation
I have no actual numbers for this, only anecdotal, but it seems to me that a very large percentage of the casual player crowd really enjoy customising the aesthetics of their characters. There is so much loot to choose from and wardrobes / cosmetic outfits / transmog etc lets us choose virtually any look we want without sacrificing stats. A lot of people will spend hours / days just hunting down rare cosmetics to perfect their look, or will spend an entire evening just in the character creator with no real intention of ever properly playing that character.
With these things in mind, you can see that combat difficulty is immaterial, in fact, the easier the combat, the quicker they consume the content they actually enjoy. People who play games purely for relaxation (which is the majority of the casual crowd, which is the largest crowd) don't want challenge. They want to be able to pick up a game, turn it on and be guaranteed some fun without getting stressed. They don't want to learn the mechanics inside out, they don't want to perfect their rotations or learn best how to play in a group. That is a lot of effort to put into a game up front, but if you're playing just for relaxation you don't want to have to put in that effort.
I personally don't believe this is the right way to go. I believe it is possible to create a game with a combat system that is easy to begin with but slowly ramps up over time, teaching players along the way. However, designing such a combat system is difficult and time consuming and if you get it wrong (i.e. too challenging) you end up driving off the large casual market.
That sounds great. And yes, I agree AI restrictions are probably what's holding companies back from making a more dynamic mmo combat system.
However, we don't have to have an amazing emergent AI system to have more difficult combat. the older mmos did it just fine. It was argued earlier this thread that maybe it wasn't really "difficult" but rather "punishing" if you made mistakes. Well, whatever works is what I say! I can give many different scenerios (EQ again) that was quite difficult, group or solo. Just leveling.
There's another thread about MMO difficulty though. That's not really what this one is about. I mean, it's similar. But the point of this thread is more of a "call out" to the people that are playing these "top" games. What are they doing in them that makes them want to log in every day and play for hours? Apparently they aren't alone in whatever drives them because these games are the most popular mmos out there right now. How is it they ignore the atrocities of the faceroll combat systems, when fighting is the vast majority of the game??
Are they high or drunk when they play, so therefore it doesn't matter what they are doing?
The point being, apparently I'm missing something. SOMETHING is compelling these people to play these games. What is it?? I want some! Give me a slice of that! I'll pay for it. Take my money.
Go to youtube. Watch videos of GW2 solo dungeon. Now try to mimic what people's doing and beat's the clear time.
When I used to play Wow, I find some of the raid really difficult. If only the whole game is difficult.
There is nothing wrong with the combat, the problem is monster hit like peanuts. Instead of taking like 3% of your health per hit in most of the game, it should take 30%.
I would much prefer to dodge and block and find an opening than tab and rely on dice rolls.
The key word there is "prefer". I can make due with tab targeting combat as long as I don't have 20k skills, many of them dependent on "just the right situation".
I do however agree that the opponents should take more health from you. Sort of like Dark Souls combat.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Thank you. That's a good answer to my questions.
So what you are saying, is the people playing these games now are mindless idiots who just got home from work, and want to just "relax". No challenge, no thinking. Just dopamine addicts. Hurry and get the levels...and loot...and pretty clothes...faster...faster...FASTER!
Also, there is a lot to be said for "story" as he puts it. I don't think "challenge and thinking" necessarily trump "story". They are just a different focus.
Or do we need to call video game players idiots as well because "video games"?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
But these are MMOs. They are custom created worlds that are huge. Made specifically for you to visit and enjoy. You enjoy the scenery, you enjoy the sounds, the music. However, as with all of these types of games, combat is always there. Again, it is 70-90 percent of the game. The developers aren't always patching in new scenery, music, etc. No, they are patching in balances for combat. It's the most important part of these games. Always has been, and always will be.
So, if the combat in these games are mind numbingly easy, boring, faceroll. With zero challenge or threat of dying. Then the people that log into these games and TOLERATE the "god mode" they have on constantly just so they can experience the "stories" are IMO quite dull people.....idiots.
If you are having to focus hard, make difficult combat choices, talk with group members via vent / skype etc, that requires a lot of energy and can be very stressful. You may get a greater sense of achievement from engaging in challenging content (I certainly do), but if you just want to relax then you don't want to be hyper-focused.
However, I don't think developers are interested in making custom created worlds "that are huge" anymore.
There's a you tube reviewer, Angry Peon, who just did a first impressions of Life is Feudal. Things that he didn't like, that I did, were just being dropped off in the middle of nowhere. He also didn't like the lack of direction. Or that the tutorial was pitch dark.
These are things I think are great. But my feeling is that just doesn't cut it anymore which is why I have to be prepared to play Indie games at some point if I want something that gives me freedom, hardship and danger.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I played those other games as you did and i did not like those designs at all,terrible in fact.
The problem is pretty simple and again why you hear people talk old school aka EQ1...FFXI is because and especially FFXI was made to group not solo.Obviously if soloing combat is super streamlined and imo super easy and even worse you are 100% hog tied and feel like you can only combat the same as everyone else.
I don't think even inside of FFXI could you find that magic moment again as the game has changed 10 fold,more catering to also solo now.However i still choose FFXI over all the rest,it is still every bit as challenging and is just much deeper overall in design.Sadly most could play FFXI and miss out on a lot because there is no hand holding.
As to your mention of "SLOW" combat as in FFXIV,that is exactly how i like combat,i despise ARPG's and what i call SPAM combat.The idea of slow allows for active and reactive turns without just one shotting mobs,maybe not 200 IQ or Einstein challenging but still offers imo a better option.
I still to this day long for a new game to come along and one up FFXI but nothing is coming close,i pray for Pantheon but i highly doubt it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If a forum user was designing a game,you know they would be passionate about the design they prefer/like,you'll at least get a quality version of that design.Devs are number crunching,their investors are pushing it out the door too fast to start making profits,catchy one dimensional gimmicks and heavy marketing is driving the market,passionate guys like John Carmack and at "one time" Smedley or my fave Tanaka are long gone it seems.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Who is to blame? The devlopers/investors that want to make more money? Or the mindless drones who clamor for "god mode" combat, so they can play, progress, and experience the entire game with a glass of wine in hand?
What came first? The "idiots"? Or the companies?
Growing up (again I'm 40 now), being a gamer was a niche thing. Other gamers wanted virtual worlds to experience and "live in". Games like the older mmos catered to us. WoW came along, and streamlined the experience a lot, but it in it's early days, was still a great game. Combat wasn't nearly as challenging as the first mmos, but still wasn't "god mode". But now, it is. The entire game is. And all mmos to come after it is.
The "old gamers" like myself, were left behind by the flood of the "idiots" who suddenly jumped into our worlds and insisted on "god mode" gameplay. So the companies delivered.
So...who are playing these new games now? My guess is it's made up of the mass of morons who complained enough to dictate these games were changed/developed to cater to them. But...where are the "old gamers"? They must be there as well...at least some of them. What drives them to play these games nowadays? How did they adapt to the faceroll of 90 percent of the game? Are they so enamored with the stories that they don't care anymore? With the brainless character progression? With seeing what looks like little girls in skimpy clothes (Asian games)? Is it PVP? Did they just quit mmos altogether (which would mean the overall population of these newer games are "idiots")?
Game development seems to be a thankless sucky job. Long hard hours, pay that isn't great when compared to working in other, similar jobs in other industries. And the layoffs? Badly run companies that lay off their employees at the drop of a dime only to have them scrambling to find jobs.
I would say that the ONLY reason to work in video game development is because one is passionate about games.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Like other posters have said, the WoW rehash is there because it already has a library of gaming elements to pull from, people will soak it in because it's "familiar". Consequently, those WoW clones die because of the over saturated market. That's why I think we are getting games like Pantheon, and the MMO EQ2 team is developing. Something not of the norm.
For me as a player, I don't find combat that is one dimensional and lacks substance to be fun. It creates stale gameplay too fast.
sadly they aren't going to offer you several different styles of combat to fit your need.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
Hmm, what is good combat to me.
A game where I just don't notice the combat. It's like what is good acting? If you don't notice bad acting, then the acting is good imo. So likewise, if I don't notice bad combat, then the combat is good.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.