I hate easily attainable vertical progression cap.
I always preferred games like Lineage II where it took ages to reach max level.
I always preferred game where you actually never reached the max "level" or whatever. AC1, UO...
There was max lvl in each .. matter a fact i have 7 max toons on UO .. Now i may decide to change the build .. But .. They are all maxed .. AC also had a max lvl it was 275, which i had 1 toon at
invisible walls, and/or environment designed to funnel you from point a to point b..... i feel like a god damn lab rat, being funneled down a maze. instant gag reflex. my mmos are open worlds, not mazes. nothing turns me off quicker than being restricted by poor/lazy map design. if i can't just go explore in any direction i want, then it's not a world. it's not what i want from an mmo.
This is what turned me off of FFIV. I played it for all of 15 minutes and felt like I was just getting zoned from one corridor to the next.
Lack of customization - all warriors should not look alike or have the same skills
Pretty sure in professional fighting both fighters have the same set of skills, its just whoever uses them best that comes out on top.
Within the confines of that specific sport to a higher degree than in non-fighting professions, but different fighters always have different strengths and weaknesses and strategies. What made early UFC fun was seeing all the crazy mixed styles go against each other. I remember one of the fights was this huge sumo guy versus this little teeny teacher who got in a lucky punch to the nose right off the bat and won as the sumo guy picked him up and was about to annihilate him because his nose was poring out blood.
In the military this also isn't true. The US has a professional army while a lot of 1st world countries have conscripts. Also, even within the US military infantrymen have vastly different skill sets. Even within the same subMOS, like 11b. You have the line squads with different systems including grenade launcher and SAW. The team leader has a completely different focus than the two or three men under him, same with the squad leader. Then you have weapons squad with a gun team of gunner, assistant gunner, and ammo bearer (usually just gunner and ag though). Firing a belt fed weapon like the 60 or 240 (especially the 60 with tightening the gas piston and all the jams) is an art form. Someone with no experience can't just jump on a gun and fire it effectively. It takes a lot of practice to get good at plunging fire and beaten zones, nevermind fire that specific gun without jamming every other burst.
That isn't even considering the differences between the people. Some are strong, some can hump a ton of weight all day and not get tired, some people go without sleep and function better than others, etc.
Any mmorpg that homogenizes everything isn't an rpg. Real life is diverse, even within the same profession. Any game that shirks diversity (meaning no character development, especially no choice character development) is a game for console people and children.
Lack of customization - all warriors should not look alike or have the same skills
Pretty sure in professional fighting both fighters have the same set of skills, its just whoever uses them best that comes out on top.
They do? No, they don't unless you watch boxing or similar sports where only a specific style in allowed.
And already sword fencing have tons of different styles and schools and that is not counting all other possible weapon sets a warrior can use.
You really should visit your local ARMA or SCA club and try a little yourself.
There are however similarities in all sword schools, certain guards and manuevers are used by most schools but it is still a huge difference from schools even from the same country which certainly is a good basic for how to customize a MMO warrior as well. You get some basic moves and then either pick a school or loose manuevers for your own fighting style.
Anyways: Lack of customization is indeed annoying in many MMOs.
I think this one isn't something that bothers everyone, but it bothers me.
I hate playing an MMO, and the story has my character pinned as the "chosen one". It could just be personal preference, but in a game where I'm supposed to interact with a massive amount of players, it feels kind of condescending to know that we're all the "chosen one".
I suppose it's because I don't want to feel like my character can do everything within an MMO. That's why I play an MMO, because at some point I'm going to see and cooperate with other players, and it would be nice from a lore stance where I don't have to think everyone else is a bit player to MY story, and that I'm still the best thing since sliced bread.
Earlier MMOs seemed more in tune with this, where they understood that you were going to be interacting with other people constantly and perhaps a story where you alone save the world seems out of touch. That's not to say they were perfect, but at least I felt I didn't have to suspend disbelief just because I wanted to group with others who have played the story.
Let's call that "similar story". Being the choosen one have been done a zillion times and we are all rather tired of it.
The story and world in MMOs seems to have been picked from a checklist everyone uses and that is rather sad. It is true that fantasy books from the 80s and 90s tended to be like that but newer (and older for that matter) books usually stand out from that. The main character is usually competent and skilled but not a Matrix styled Messiah as MMOs tend to have.
A different story would help to not make the MMOs feel so similar to eachother.
Currencies so many fucking currencies ... soooo many .. Whyy!!!!!!
The base currency is actually very basic (100 copper is 1 silver, 100 silver is one gold and possibly is 100 gold a plat). It is also rather silly since copper coins are completelly useless in all MMOs and silver is generally useless in most as well. There I rather see something a bit more advanced but only using coins that is actually useful once you pass level 10.
However there are all the other silly currencies games have that only can be used in certain places or with certain factions. They get old fast, the classic faction system is aactually less annoying there (get enough faction points to open the store and then use regular coins to buy stuff). I don't see how they add anything fun to the game.
Few merchants would say no to a deal when you pay in gold, they might raise the price if they don't like you or lower it if they do but that is it.
Well that's how EQ did it - so that was really one currency, as they could all be cross-converted easily. EQ split it to make for weight concerns, as I can remember a lot of druids/wizards that make a killing just cashing in copper/silver for plat to keep weights down.
What I think @Scorchien means are non-convertible currencies, which is extremely common in F2P games. In L2Rev, for instance: Adena (the common currency, equivalent to Gold for the most part) Mastery Coins Red Diamonds Clan Coins Friendship Points Blue Diamonds (sold for cash only, or for trade in AH/Market) Topaz (sold for cash only) Star Stones Proof of Blood probably 5 more I'm forgetting
You can convert Red Diamonds to Adena. Sales between players are limited to Blue Diamonds. That's about it as far as cross-converting. Different items cost different currencies, it's annoying to try to track them all.
It's done so that you can obfuscate some things in the cash shop. Another popular tactic is to make an Item cost 8 gems/coins/whatever, but they are only sold in packs of 5, so you always end up with a rounding amount somewhere.
I'm willing to overlook a lot of things, but one biggest pet peeve:
When my progression hits a brick wall.
This is what makes me stop a game. Now, that's a varying definition for every player, and it's changed for me as my play style has shifted to become more casual.
But generally, once I'm at the point I can no longer get groups/raids together for progression, and the only thing really left for me are cosmetic or vanity upgrades, or leveling yet-another-alt, that's the point I turn to another game for a bit.
Well that's how EQ did it - so that was really one currency, as they could all be cross-converted easily. EQ split it to make for weight concerns, as I can remember a lot of druids/wizards that make a killing just cashing in copper/silver for plat to keep weights down.
What I think @Scorchien means are non-convertible currencies, which is extremely common in F2P games. In L2Rev, for instance: Adena (the common currency, equivalent to Gold for the most part) Mastery Coins Red Diamonds Clan Coins Friendship Points Blue Diamonds (sold for cash only, or for trade in AH/Market) Topaz (sold for cash only) Star Stones Proof of Blood probably 5 more I'm forgetting
You can convert Red Diamonds to Adena. Sales between players are limited to Blue Diamonds. That's about it as far as cross-converting. Different items cost different currencies, it's annoying to try to track them all.
It's done so that you can obfuscate some things in the cash shop. Another popular tactic is to make an Item cost 8 gems/coins/whatever, but they are only sold in packs of 5, so you always end up with a rounding amount somewhere.
I know,
Heck, you should see my wallwt in GW2, there is a ton of crap currency, some that only can be used in a single zone or even for a single merchant. And there it doesn't really have anything to do with the cashshop, it is so you should farm a single zone or dungeon. And GW2 is far from the only game doing that either.
I hate easily attainable vertical progression cap.
I always preferred games like Lineage II where it took ages to reach max level.
I always preferred game where you actually never reached the max "level" or whatever. AC1, UO...
There was max lvl in each .. matter a fact i have 7 max toons on UO .. Now i may decide to change the build .. But .. They are all maxed .. AC also had a max lvl it was 275, which i had 1 toon at
You could max out your skills, yes, but there was no level, there was no special "endgame", neither in AC1 nor in UO.
Well at the end of the day a numerical value of Skills say 120 Archery is "LVL" 120 archery .. Still max lvl for ex.. All games are lvl based there is no getting away from that ...Math makes it so ..
lvl 60 archery .. grants skill
lvl 70 archery grants skill
lvl 80 archery Grants skill etc .. and so on applies to every skill in UO ..All skill in UO are lvl based .. Just under the hood a bit
Now in AC there was endgame .. at lvl 275 Mid and low lvl content could not scratch you ...And your focus was high lvl raiding as normal
In UO i will agree even a 7x GM in great gear will die in E Brit woods if they are not careful .. The risk is always there which makes it stand out amongst other MMO ...
Leveling filler content. Let's fill the leveling bar up to level 30 doing meaningless content so that I can go into the area intended for level 30 characters.
Its one of the reasons I can't stand leveling in mmorpg.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Now in AC there was endgame .. at lvl 275 Mid and low lvl content could not scratch you ...And your focus was high lvl raiding as normal
During all the time I've played AC1, and that was long, I never ever focused on any kind of "high lvl raiding" as you say. If they added that kind of crap after I stopped playing, then I'm just glad I stopped when I did.
And endgame? A skilled level 80 could kill anything in the world, do any content. I was soloing valley of death mobs with my 80 CLaW (Creature Life and War) character.
Sorry, but no. Neither AC1 nor UO were about that "endgame" shit we get served in EQ clones since Everquest was released.
I think we are agreeing as you said at 80 everything became trivial even .. So whats left but the hardest content in the game for AC ... that would be endgame , All the previous conent is trivial at that point are you going to kill simple Drudges again and feel any kind of challenge ...
But UO is a funny creature as a max 7x can die easily to trivial content like a simple Air Elly if you arent on your game at all times ... But there is most ceratinly an endgame as you raid for scrolls/Deco/Rares etc ..
Dropping loot that I can't use anywhere in the game. Whether it be because of wrong stats or random number generation. Imagine farming to get that one great item you are missing to have everything but that drop, and finally it drops but the stats on it are worse than what you already have.
WoW has kinda stopped this as they have adjusted their drops to go with whichever role you have picked. It is a good start. Couldn't stand having to have 2 or 3 sets of armor to have to switch into if I wanted to do something else.
Asian MMOs; every single time I have tried to "get into" one I have failed miserably. The art style, the sounds (GOD the sounds), the gameplay... it's as if they were made with the coin-op user in mind, just dressed up as an MMO.
The ability to spend real life cash to influence what happens in the game.
I agree partially but it depends,
do you mean the paying ability to craft unique looking weapons with the same stats as the "normal" weapon?
or
paying for the ability to be better than other players - i.e. epic weapons?
or
all the above and probably more?
The reason I ask is personally I see no issue with the first but I do have issue with the bottom unless it's to do with preorders and then it must be something that loses its influence as the game progressed.
The ability to spend real life cash to influence what happens in the game.
I agree partially but it depends,
do you mean the paying ability to craft unique looking weapons with the same stats as the "normal" weapon?
or
paying for the ability to be better than other players - i.e. epic weapons?
or
all the above and probably more?
The reason I ask is personally I see no issue with the first but I do have issue with the bottom unless it's to do with preorders and then it must be something that loses its influence as the game progressed.
I mean exactly what I said. What happens in the game world should be a result of actions and results of things that happen in that game world.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
Within the confines of that specific sport to a higher degree than in non-fighting professions, but different fighters always have different strengths and weaknesses and strategies. What made early UFC fun was seeing all the crazy mixed styles go against each other. I remember one of the fights was this huge sumo guy versus this little teeny teacher who got in a lucky punch to the nose right off the bat and won as the sumo guy picked him up and was about to annihilate him because his nose was poring out blood.
In the military this also isn't true. The US has a professional army while a lot of 1st world countries have conscripts. Also, even within the US military infantrymen have vastly different skill sets. Even within the same subMOS, like 11b. You have the line squads with different systems including grenade launcher and SAW. The team leader has a completely different focus than the two or three men under him, same with the squad leader. Then you have weapons squad with a gun team of gunner, assistant gunner, and ammo bearer (usually just gunner and ag though). Firing a belt fed weapon like the 60 or 240 (especially the 60 with tightening the gas piston and all the jams) is an art form. Someone with no experience can't just jump on a gun and fire it effectively. It takes a lot of practice to get good at plunging fire and beaten zones, nevermind fire that specific gun without jamming every other burst.
That isn't even considering the differences between the people. Some are strong, some can hump a ton of weight all day and not get tired, some people go without sleep and function better than others, etc.
Any mmorpg that homogenizes everything isn't an rpg. Real life is diverse, even within the same profession. Any game that shirks diversity (meaning no character development, especially no choice character development) is a game for console people and children.
And already sword fencing have tons of different styles and schools and that is not counting all other possible weapon sets a warrior can use.
You really should visit your local ARMA or SCA club and try a little yourself.
There are however similarities in all sword schools, certain guards and manuevers are used by most schools but it is still a huge difference from schools even from the same country which certainly is a good basic for how to customize a MMO warrior as well. You get some basic moves and then either pick a school or loose manuevers for your own fighting style.
Anyways: Lack of customization is indeed annoying in many MMOs.
The story and world in MMOs seems to have been picked from a checklist everyone uses and that is rather sad. It is true that fantasy books from the 80s and 90s tended to be like that but newer (and older for that matter) books usually stand out from that. The main character is usually competent and skilled but not a Matrix styled Messiah as MMOs tend to have.
A different story would help to not make the MMOs feel so similar to eachother.
What I think @Scorchien means are non-convertible currencies, which is extremely common in F2P games. In L2Rev, for instance:
Adena (the common currency, equivalent to Gold for the most part)
Mastery Coins
Red Diamonds
Clan Coins
Friendship Points
Blue Diamonds (sold for cash only, or for trade in AH/Market)
Topaz (sold for cash only)
Star Stones
Proof of Blood
probably 5 more I'm forgetting
You can convert Red Diamonds to Adena. Sales between players are limited to Blue Diamonds. That's about it as far as cross-converting. Different items cost different currencies, it's annoying to try to track them all.
It's done so that you can obfuscate some things in the cash shop. Another popular tactic is to make an Item cost 8 gems/coins/whatever, but they are only sold in packs of 5, so you always end up with a rounding amount somewhere.
When my progression hits a brick wall.
This is what makes me stop a game. Now, that's a varying definition for every player, and it's changed for me as my play style has shifted to become more casual.
But generally, once I'm at the point I can no longer get groups/raids together for progression, and the only thing really left for me are cosmetic or vanity upgrades, or leveling yet-another-alt, that's the point I turn to another game for a bit.
Heck, you should see my wallwt in GW2, there is a ton of crap currency, some that only can be used in a single zone or even for a single merchant. And there it doesn't really have anything to do with the cashshop, it is so you should farm a single zone or dungeon. And GW2 is far from the only game doing that either.
How about: "What is/was your most loved feature in an MMO ?"
lvl 60 archery .. grants skill
lvl 70 archery grants skill
lvl 80 archery Grants skill etc .. and so on applies to every skill in UO ..All skill in UO are lvl based .. Just under the hood a bit
Now in AC there was endgame .. at lvl 275 Mid and low lvl content could not scratch you ...And your focus was high lvl raiding as normal
In UO i will agree even a 7x GM in great gear will die in E Brit woods if they are not careful .. The risk is always there which makes it stand out amongst other MMO ...
Its one of the reasons I can't stand leveling in mmorpg.
It spoilt wow for me,
Vanilla wow:
the rogue, one shots a mage, the tank obliterated the rogue, the mage kited the tank to death.
Current wow:
My PvP gear is better than yours goodbye
But UO is a funny creature as a max 7x can die easily to trivial content like a simple Air Elly if you arent on your game at all times ... But there is most ceratinly an endgame as you raid for scrolls/Deco/Rares etc ..
WoW has kinda stopped this as they have adjusted their drops to go with whichever role you have picked. It is a good start. Couldn't stand having to have 2 or 3 sets of armor to have to switch into if I wanted to do something else.
thank you for bringing a bit of fun to the discussion made me chuckle
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
do you mean the paying ability to craft unique looking weapons with the same stats as the "normal" weapon?
or
paying for the ability to be better than other players - i.e. epic weapons?
or
all the above and probably more?
The reason I ask is personally I see no issue with the first but I do have issue with the bottom unless it's to do with preorders and then it must be something that loses its influence as the game progressed.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018