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Apple now requires games with paid loot boxes to publish the odds

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,430
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That would get pretty ridiculous if Monopoly had to publish the odds for being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk.

    No one other than those interested in downplaying the significance of PAID loot box RNG, gives much of a shit about knowing the odds of landing the Ultimate Sword of Winning in Raid X in game Y.

    That's just silly shit.
    lol. Why wouldn't you want full disclosure? What do you want to keep hidden that loot crates aren't the only predatory aspect of obfuscating RNG in online gaming?

    Math may be hard for you, but those sorts of odds can be calculated. It's not ridiculous for people who aren't afraid of math. Those are the same people that design games around those math systems. Do you honestly think all those puzzle games can be coincidentally defined by math? Or is it likely someone took a problem, solved it with math, and now you have a game. That is exactly what Candy Crush and raid loot crates do.

    If a variable loot reward is provided in a computer game, then those odds are already known and can be provided. So why wouldn't you want that published?

    Your monopoly example is stupid and not worth further comment. It's a junior high "har har" comment.
    Speaking of stupidity, I can't think of anything more stupid than continuously trying to make the bogus point that paid loot boxes are no worse than in game RNG just because you paid some money to play the game in the first place.

    Have you actually managed to find anyone to agree with your nonsense these many weeks later?
    You're deflecting. I already showed you that math people aren't scared of calculating Monopoly odds and have done so.

    You still haven't answered the question. Why not publish all odds for RNG rewards when a service collects continual revenue for it? They know the odds, so why would you want them to hide it? Why not require any gaming service that collects ongoing revenue have to supply the odds of success for the services they provide or the microtransactions they sell.

    Why is full disclosure nonsense to you? Only people with something to hide wouldn't want that especially when it's there.
    I think you need a Sesame Street refresher on how one of these things is not like the other.

    Your question, as usual, is bogus because knowing the odds of a gambling crate you need to pay for, is not anywhere near the same level of required consumer awareness as the RNG chance of getting a specific loot drop in a game where you paid a set amount for playing the whole game.

    You may be obsessed with getting that one loot drop and may want to know the odds just like many others may want to know. Someone may even have calculated the odds. But what does that have to do with paid loot boxes?

    Your habitual deflection is to always bring up those other cases of in game RNG in order to passively defend loot boxes as no worse than other things. It's the silly ass game you play in your pathetic efforts to defend any and all things publishers do.

    We get that in your mind developers and publishers can do no wrong. But you don't seem to get that in our minds there are degrees of wrongdoing with loot boxes being a particularly egregious example.

    So your in-game other RNG deflections? No, they're not like loot boxes. 
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,125
    Iselin said:
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That would get pretty ridiculous if Monopoly had to publish the odds for being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk.

    No one other than those interested in downplaying the significance of PAID loot box RNG, gives much of a shit about knowing the odds of landing the Ultimate Sword of Winning in Raid X in game Y.

    That's just silly shit.
    Monopoly does disclose the probabilities.  The probability of a fair die coming up on a given side is 1/6.

    There's an enormous difference between disclosing the probabilities that developers arbitrarily set directly and the probabilities of arbitrarily complicated derived things like who will land on Boardwalk first.  No one is saying that developers have to compute the latter and give it to you.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,995
    It shouldn't matter if the implementations are different. Wouldn't full disclosure when a service charges a fee where rewards are tied to RNG be better than not? This doesn't need to stop with loot crates. Since the info is there and available why not have gaming services disclose that?

    I think blind box sales in real life should have to do the same thing. I think "Loot Crate" and all those other monthly sub services should have to do it as well.

    This isn't about raiding, but that is one thing that falls into a category that should disclose its rewards and odds. I've said before that this is pervasive in online gaming and I use raiding as an example here because it's something MMO gamers are familiar with.

    Candy Crush is another favorite example. It looks like a simple match game on the surface but their algorithms are design to make game play work when you buy power ups.

    Disclosing the odds doesn't mean that the practice is predatory. It means that people can evaluate the value and decide that for themselves. One game might provide a payout of 5% on their loot crate chase item where it ends up costing an average player $25 to get the item while another might be much smaller and cost several hundred dollars more. Players can decide, discuss, and argue over the value because they have the info to do so.

    They can track changes to loot crates, drop rates, and other changes that affect customer fees. That sounds like a much more consumer friendly environment than just making sure loot crates publish odds.

    I guess I don't understand why anyone would be against more disclosure when it comes to developers tweaking systems to promote higher revenue.
    MadFrenchieMrMelGibson
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  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,537
    edited December 2017

    Iselin said:
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That would get pretty ridiculous if Monopoly had to publish the odds for being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk.

    No one other than those interested in downplaying the significance of PAID loot box RNG, gives much of a shit about knowing the odds of landing the Ultimate Sword of Winning in Raid X in game Y.

    That's just silly shit.
    The odds of being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk is one divided by the number of players squared, isn't it?  If there are four players for example, it's one in sixteen because it's a 1/4th chance of being the first player to land on Park Place and a 1/4th chance of being the first player to land on boardwalk.

    McDonalds posts the odds to its monopoly game too, where real money is at stake.  Of course, the fact that some insider guy Jacobs committed fraud over the whole thing for a period of time was a separate matter.
    Torval
  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,894
    Quizzical said:
    Iselin said:
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That would get pretty ridiculous if Monopoly had to publish the odds for being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk.

    No one other than those interested in downplaying the significance of PAID loot box RNG, gives much of a shit about knowing the odds of landing the Ultimate Sword of Winning in Raid X in game Y.

    That's just silly shit.
    Monopoly does disclose the probabilities.  The probability of a fair die coming up on a given side is 1/6.

    There's an enormous difference between disclosing the probabilities that developers arbitrarily set directly and the probabilities of arbitrarily complicated derived things like who will land on Boardwalk first.  No one is saying that developers have to compute the latter and give it to you.
    The math is just not that simple.   It's a classic case of something that looks intuitive being a grand lie.


    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited December 2017
    Iselin said:
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That would get pretty ridiculous if Monopoly had to publish the odds for being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk.

    No one other than those interested in downplaying the significance of PAID loot box RNG, gives much of a shit about knowing the odds of landing the Ultimate Sword of Winning in Raid X in game Y.

    That's just silly shit.
    Exactly, because the point is participating in the raid, playing the game, not just opening a box at the end.

    It's the removal of the "hey you're playing a fun game" step that makes paid lootboxes so detrimental to the design decisions of games.
    What does a raid or raid loot have to do with the topic? We are talking about paying real money for RNG loot. If there is real money involved then the odds should be made public.

    But hey, now that you mention raid loot... ZAM/WoWhead do a pretty good job at revealing the odds for WoW loot on their site. So there is nothing wrong with that one either, but the big deal is when real money is involved.
    That was my point.  Calculating the odds on a raid drop then trying to say it's the same as loot boxes is ludicrous because, with subs for instance, you're not paying a sub to purchase the loot roll, you're paying a sub to experience the game.  A raid and boss drops are part of the experience.

    Loot box purchasing is completely separate from playing the game.  You can spend $1000 on loot boxes without ever taking one step with your avatar.
    rojoArcueidIselinAlBQuirky

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Torval said:
    It shouldn't matter if the implementations are different. Wouldn't full disclosure when a service charges a fee where rewards are tied to RNG be better than not? This doesn't need to stop with loot crates. Since the info is there and available why not have gaming services disclose that?

    I think blind box sales in real life should have to do the same thing. I think "Loot Crate" and all those other monthly sub services should have to do it as well.

    This isn't about raiding, but that is one thing that falls into a category that should disclose its rewards and odds. I've said before that this is pervasive in online gaming and I use raiding as an example here because it's something MMO gamers are familiar with.

    Candy Crush is another favorite example. It looks like a simple match game on the surface but their algorithms are design to make game play work when you buy power ups.

    Disclosing the odds doesn't mean that the practice is predatory. It means that people can evaluate the value and decide that for themselves. One game might provide a payout of 5% on their loot crate chase item where it ends up costing an average player $25 to get the item while another might be much smaller and cost several hundred dollars more. Players can decide, discuss, and argue over the value because they have the info to do so.

    They can track changes to loot crates, drop rates, and other changes that affect customer fees. That sounds like a much more consumer friendly environment than just making sure loot crates publish odds.

    I guess I don't understand why anyone would be against more disclosure when it comes to developers tweaking systems to promote higher revenue.
    From that perspective, sure Torval.  More info on loot drops would be cool with me.  However, it's not at all the same thing as the loot box system, because loot boxes are completely divorced from gameplay.
    AlBQuirky

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    edited December 2017
    What is to stop a game from offering/creating content that you access by paying for "day passes" and in that content random loot drops (doesn't have to be a chest)?

    What if they also add some in-game way to get a day pass so a non-cash method  exists.  Although it might be an extreme way to get it or in a holiday gift bag from the generous company.  etc....
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,537
    edited December 2017
    waynejr2 said:
    What is to stop a game from offering/creating content that you access by paying for "day passes" and in that content random loot drops (doesn't have to be a chest)?

    What if they also add some in-game way to get a day pass so a non-cash method  exists.  Although it might be an extreme way to get it or in a holiday gift bag from the generous company.  etc....
    Far as I can tell from being a whale myself and interacting and talking with other whales (and sometimes developers who let slip tidbits) for 11+ years, selling day-passes or anything where you have to actually play the game to access what you just brought tends to bring in a lot less sales than loot boxes.  Wartune used to have such a thing for a special cash shop dungeon and most whales that I talked to didn't bother compared to all the other cash shop purchases there. Whales might have unlimited money but they don't have unlimited time.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,995
    Tiamat64 said:
    waynejr2 said:
    What is to stop a game from offering/creating content that you access by paying for "day passes" and in that content random loot drops (doesn't have to be a chest)?

    What if they also add some in-game way to get a day pass so a non-cash method  exists.  Although it might be an extreme way to get it or in a holiday gift bag from the generous company.  etc....
    Far as I can tell from being a whale myself and interacting and talking with other whales (and sometimes developers who let slip tidbits) for 11+ years, selling day-passes or anything where you have to actually play the game to access what you just brought tends to bring in a lot less sales than loot boxes.  Wartune used to have such a thing for a special cash shop dungeon and most whales that I talked to didn't bother compared to all the other cash shop purchases there. Whales might have unlimited money but they don't have unlimited time.
    People don't like day passes for the same reasons as subs mostly. My brother won't play a subscription game with me. I can't get him to do it. He doesn't want to add another monthly bill and he doesn't want to dedicate that much time into gaming to justify adding a monthly bill. He'll spend money on one-off purchases.

    I agree though people who buy a day pass don't want to spend that grinding. They bought a short pass to play in the action. Long term MMOs aren't built well for that so the day-pass approach might not work well.
    MrMelGibson
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  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,355
    waynejr2 said:
    What is to stop a game from offering/creating content that you access by paying for "day passes" and in that content random loot drops (doesn't have to be a chest)?

    What if they also add some in-game way to get a day pass so a non-cash method  exists.  Although it might be an extreme way to get it or in a holiday gift bag from the generous company.  etc....
    I think there are actually games which is pay my minutes in predominately east asian mmorpg.  

    My experience in f2p games is many people don't want to pay anything.  I talked to people and they say the reason they play the game because it is totally free.  
  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,025
    Renoaku said:
    Awesome great news hopefully Google does the same thing.

    Now if Only Google followed their policy and kicked games that violated the privacy and rights of others by installing Anti-Cheat alongside the game when they told me over the phone that it's not allowed for apps to install other apps including apps such as Nexon Titles that run XingCode, have to disclose this to the players and ask permission first.

    Google should make sure this policy is followed along with the policy of requirement for games with loot-box to disclose percentage.
    I'm starting to think you are the best troll on this site.  So much follow through and commitment.  It's impressive.
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