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Apple now requires games with paid loot boxes to publish the odds

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Comments

  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,537
    edited December 2017
    Vrika said:
    Tiamat64 said:
    It's window dressing. The people they're pretending to protect will never look at the odds. The odds will be in the fine print and there will be a disclaimer that the odds are only approximate. They may not even put the odds in the game but just provide a link to a website with the odds buried somewhere at the bottom.  
    Eh, if it manages to make even 1% of the gambling addicted portion of the playerbase stop and reconsider what they're doing, it was worth it, I say.
    If someone is already addicted, he won't stop that easily.

    But I think it'll allow people who aren't addicted to make better decisions and reduce further addictions.
    That's probably true.  In that case, it was still worth it. (possibly more so)
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,305
    It's window dressing. The people they're pretending to protect will never look at the odds. The odds will be in the fine print and there will be a disclaimer that the odds are only approximate. They may not even put the odds in the game but just provide a link to a website with the odds buried somewhere at the bottom.  
    It absolutely is window dressing.

    It's also an admission by a huge vested interest that something needs to be done.
    MadFrenchieIselinAlBQuirky

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • WylfWylf Member UncommonPosts: 374
    If you think for one minute that this is an altruistic move on Apple's part let me disabuse you of that thought.  This is the same company that has been caught rigging their hardware to fail over time.  This is a calculated financial move on their part. Nothing more.
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,537
    Wylf said:
    If you think for one minute that this is an altruistic move on Apple's part let me disabuse you of that thought.  This is the same company that has been caught rigging their hardware to fail over time.  This is a calculated financial move on their part. Nothing more.
    Yea, maybe they realized that predatory practices (such as loot boxes) might make more money in the short term, but destroys customer retention (as pointed out by R2games in their business presentation on the matter)

    For a cash grab mobile game, that's not a big deal to the developer.  In fact, they're banking on it.  But for Apple, that's a company that needs to worry about the long term.  Hence doing what they can to take the first steps about this sort of thing.

    But hey, at least this is a smart business move that isn't ethically wrong, unlike rigging hardware to fail over time.
    MadFrenchieMrMelGibson
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,872
    It's a start but imo,rng cash shop/rmt should be abolished from gaming.
    AlBQuirky

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,128
    It's window dressing. The people they're pretending to protect will never look at the odds. The odds will be in the fine print and there will be a disclaimer that the odds are only approximate. They may not even put the odds in the game but just provide a link to a website with the odds buried somewhere at the bottom.  
    If seeing the odds would never deter anyone from buying loot boxes, companies would publish the odds without being required to do so.
    TorvalIselinlaseritAlBQuirkyMrMelGibson
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,128
    Wylf said:
    If you think for one minute that this is an altruistic move on Apple's part let me disabuse you of that thought.  This is the same company that has been caught rigging their hardware to fail over time.  This is a calculated financial move on their part. Nothing more.
    Who said anything about altruism?  I say that businesses doing what their customers want because they expect to make more money that way is preferable to businesses doing things that their customers hate because they expect to make more money that way.  At a societal level, we should encourage the former by being more willing to spend money to buy things from businesses that do what we want and less willing to spend money to buy things from businesses that do things we hate.
    TorvalAlBQuirkyMrMelGibson
  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
    Quizzical said:
    dave6660 said:
    I'm curious how they intend to enforce any degree of honesty about the given odds?  You know players are going to cry foul the first time they catch an unlucky streak.
    It should be pretty trivial for Apple to verify that odds have been posted.  What you're really getting at is how to verify that the odds posted are accurate.  You're right that that's harder to verify.  But a company that posts false odds has committed fraud and is in violation of existing laws.  Yes, they might not get caught, but if they do, they could be facing class action lawsuits, heavy fines, or even jail time.  One hopes that that would deter them from posting incorrect odds.

    Some obscure game with little revenue might well get away with posting incorrect odds.  But big, well-known games that bring in millions of dollars are far more likely to get caught if they try to cheat like that.
    If Apple can make it work, more power to them.  But I honestly don't think they can police this policy to a degree that makes it meaningful.  Especially since software is developed around the world, including many countries with nothing to fear from NA or EU law enforcement / courts.
    AlBQuirky

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,003
    Quizzical said:
    It's window dressing. The people they're pretending to protect will never look at the odds. The odds will be in the fine print and there will be a disclaimer that the odds are only approximate. They may not even put the odds in the game but just provide a link to a website with the odds buried somewhere at the bottom.  
    If seeing the odds would never deter anyone from buying loot boxes, companies would publish the odds without being required to do so.
    That's why I would like to see it extend to every variable reward mechanism associated with fees. It's why I like the wording in the clause that extends to any mechanism like that. Loot crates are one implementation of a design mechanism. That can be moved elsewhere.
    MrMelGibson
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484
    laserit said:
    It's window dressing. The people they're pretending to protect will never look at the odds. The odds will be in the fine print and there will be a disclaimer that the odds are only approximate. They may not even put the odds in the game but just provide a link to a website with the odds buried somewhere at the bottom.  
    It absolutely is window dressing.

    It's also an admission by a huge vested interest that something needs to be done.

    Yes they admit the need for damage control. Change? Not so much. 
    AlBQuirky

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484
    edited December 2017
    Quizzical said:
    It's window dressing. The people they're pretending to protect will never look at the odds. The odds will be in the fine print and there will be a disclaimer that the odds are only approximate. They may not even put the odds in the game but just provide a link to a website with the odds buried somewhere at the bottom.  
    If seeing the odds would never deter anyone from buying loot boxes, companies would publish the odds without being required to do so.

    Nope. Publishing the odds requires paying someone to do so and make sure the info stays correct. Only the sloppiest companies pay people to do things without a reason. The marginally useful purpose this serves is for people who oppose loot boxes to have actual numbers to give instead of saying "look how bad the odds are!" That and it's damage control for apple.  

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,420
    edited December 2017
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    Torval




  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,003
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That is it exactly. Give players the odds of receiving a reward for a given effort and they can calculate whether those are worth the cost - whether it's loot crates, box fees, DLC,  RMT conversion, or sub-fees. It needs to be in language that meets a reasonable teen reading level, say 13 (or whatever age they allow on their service).
    rojoArcueidMrMelGibson
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,430
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That would get pretty ridiculous if Monopoly had to publish the odds for being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk.

    No one other than those interested in downplaying the significance of PAID loot box RNG, gives much of a shit about knowing the odds of landing the Ultimate Sword of Winning in Raid X in game Y.

    That's just silly shit.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,003
    Iselin said:
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That would get pretty ridiculous if Monopoly had to publish the odds for being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk.

    No one other than those interested in downplaying the significance of PAID loot box RNG, gives much of a shit about knowing the odds of landing the Ultimate Sword of Winning in Raid X in game Y.

    That's just silly shit.
    lol. Why wouldn't you want full disclosure? What do you want to keep hidden that loot crates aren't the only predatory aspect of obfuscating RNG in online gaming?

    Math may be hard for you, but those sorts of odds can be calculated. It's not ridiculous for people who aren't afraid of math. Those are the same people that design games around those math systems. Do you honestly think all those puzzle games can be coincidentally defined by math? Or is it likely someone took a problem, solved it with math, and now you have a game. That is exactly what Candy Crush and raid loot crates do.

    If a variable loot reward is provided in a computer game, then those odds are already known and can be provided. So why wouldn't you want that published?

    Your monopoly example is stupid and not worth further comment. It's a junior high "har har" comment.
    Iselin
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Iselin said:
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That would get pretty ridiculous if Monopoly had to publish the odds for being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk.

    No one other than those interested in downplaying the significance of PAID loot box RNG, gives much of a shit about knowing the odds of landing the Ultimate Sword of Winning in Raid X in game Y.

    That's just silly shit.
    Exactly, because the point is participating in the raid, playing the game, not just opening a box at the end.

    It's the removal of the "hey you're playing a fun game" step that makes paid lootboxes so detrimental to the design decisions of games.
    AlBQuirky

    image
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,003
    edited December 2017
    Iselin said:
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That would get pretty ridiculous if Monopoly had to publish the odds for being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk.

    No one other than those interested in downplaying the significance of PAID loot box RNG, gives much of a shit about knowing the odds of landing the Ultimate Sword of Winning in Raid X in game Y.

    That's just silly shit.
    Exactly, because the point is participating in the raid, playing the game, not just opening a box at the end.

    It's the removal of the "hey you're playing a fun game" step that makes paid lootboxes so detrimental to the design decisions of games.
    Math isn't a scary mystery. It's not hard to publish these things. They already know them. So why not? Even though Iselin thinks calculating this is hard, it's not because it's already done.

    Let me Google that for you... http://www.tkcs-collins.com/truman/monopoly/monopoly.shtml

    MrMelGibson
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,420
    Iselin said:
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That would get pretty ridiculous if Monopoly had to publish the odds for being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk.

    No one other than those interested in downplaying the significance of PAID loot box RNG, gives much of a shit about knowing the odds of landing the Ultimate Sword of Winning in Raid X in game Y.

    That's just silly shit.
    Exactly, because the point is participating in the raid, playing the game, not just opening a box at the end.

    It's the removal of the "hey you're playing a fun game" step that makes paid lootboxes so detrimental to the design decisions of games.
    What does a raid or raid loot have to do with the topic? We are talking about paying real money for RNG loot. If there is real money involved then the odds should be made public.

    But hey, now that you mention raid loot... ZAM/WoWhead do a pretty good job at revealing the odds for WoW loot on their site. So there is nothing wrong with that one either, but the big deal is when real money is involved.
    Iselin




  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,430
    Iselin said:
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That would get pretty ridiculous if Monopoly had to publish the odds for being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk.

    No one other than those interested in downplaying the significance of PAID loot box RNG, gives much of a shit about knowing the odds of landing the Ultimate Sword of Winning in Raid X in game Y.

    That's just silly shit.
    Exactly, because the point is participating in the raid, playing the game, not just opening a box at the end.

    It's the removal of the "hey you're playing a fun game" step that makes paid lootboxes so detrimental to the design decisions of games.
    What does a raid or raid loot have to do with the topic? We are talking about paying real money for RNG loot. If there is real money involved then the odds should be made public.

    But hey, now that you mention raid loot... ZAM/WoWhead do a pretty good job at revealing the odds for WoW loot on their site. So there is nothing wrong with that one either, but the big deal is when real money is involved.
    Agreed. That is the RNG deal worth talking about. It's only shills and other amateur deflectors that jump from paid loot boxes to other in game RNG and try to make them equivalent.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,124
    edited December 2017
    Awesome great news hopefully Google does the same thing.

    Now if Only Google followed their policy and kicked games that violated the privacy and rights of others by installing Anti-Cheat alongside the game when they told me over the phone that it's not allowed for apps to install other apps including apps such as Nexon Titles that run XingCode, have to disclose this to the players and ask permission first.

    Google should make sure this policy is followed along with the policy of requirement for games with loot-box to disclose percentage.
    MrMelGibson
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,430
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That would get pretty ridiculous if Monopoly had to publish the odds for being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk.

    No one other than those interested in downplaying the significance of PAID loot box RNG, gives much of a shit about knowing the odds of landing the Ultimate Sword of Winning in Raid X in game Y.

    That's just silly shit.
    lol. Why wouldn't you want full disclosure? What do you want to keep hidden that loot crates aren't the only predatory aspect of obfuscating RNG in online gaming?

    Math may be hard for you, but those sorts of odds can be calculated. It's not ridiculous for people who aren't afraid of math. Those are the same people that design games around those math systems. Do you honestly think all those puzzle games can be coincidentally defined by math? Or is it likely someone took a problem, solved it with math, and now you have a game. That is exactly what Candy Crush and raid loot crates do.

    If a variable loot reward is provided in a computer game, then those odds are already known and can be provided. So why wouldn't you want that published?

    Your monopoly example is stupid and not worth further comment. It's a junior high "har har" comment.
    Speaking of stupidity, I can't think of anything more stupid than continuously trying to make the bogus point that paid loot boxes are no worse than in game RNG just because you paid some money to play the game in the first place.

    Have you actually managed to find anyone to agree with your nonsense these many weeks later?
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,420
    I think we can all agree this is a good first step from apple's side. Let's hope it doesn't stop with them.




  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,003
    Iselin said:
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    Do loot box buyers even care what the odds are? Isn't it like buying a lotto ticket?
    Here in New Jersey lottery publicly gives the odds of winning (powerball, megamillions, etc). Not sure other states and other countries. The chances of winning are on their website.

    Game companies should do the same thing with everything RNG based.
    That would get pretty ridiculous if Monopoly had to publish the odds for being the first to land on Park Place and Boardwalk.

    No one other than those interested in downplaying the significance of PAID loot box RNG, gives much of a shit about knowing the odds of landing the Ultimate Sword of Winning in Raid X in game Y.

    That's just silly shit.
    lol. Why wouldn't you want full disclosure? What do you want to keep hidden that loot crates aren't the only predatory aspect of obfuscating RNG in online gaming?

    Math may be hard for you, but those sorts of odds can be calculated. It's not ridiculous for people who aren't afraid of math. Those are the same people that design games around those math systems. Do you honestly think all those puzzle games can be coincidentally defined by math? Or is it likely someone took a problem, solved it with math, and now you have a game. That is exactly what Candy Crush and raid loot crates do.

    If a variable loot reward is provided in a computer game, then those odds are already known and can be provided. So why wouldn't you want that published?

    Your monopoly example is stupid and not worth further comment. It's a junior high "har har" comment.
    Speaking of stupidity, I can't think of anything more stupid than continuously trying to make the bogus point that paid loot boxes are no worse than in game RNG just because you paid some money to play the game in the first place.

    Have you actually managed to find anyone to agree with your nonsense these many weeks later?
    You're deflecting. I already showed you that math people aren't scared of calculating Monopoly odds and have done so.

    You still haven't answered the question. Why not publish all odds for RNG rewards when a service collects continual revenue for it? They know the odds, so why would you want them to hide it? Why not require any gaming service that collects ongoing revenue have to supply the odds of success for the services they provide or the microtransactions they sell.

    Why is full disclosure nonsense to you? Only people with something to hide wouldn't want that especially when it's there.
    Iselin
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,003
    I think we can all agree this is a good first step from apple's side. Let's hope it doesn't stop with them.
    Google and Microsoft don't have anything to gain by it. Apple can pull this because they have an app shop people want on because it generates revenue. Google has an app shop anyone can get on but doesn't generate much revenue by comparison. Microsoft is happy when anyone opens their shop at all. Publisher platforms (Uplay, Origin, Arc, Trion) have no incentive either.

    That leaves Steam, Good Old Games, and all the other smaller services. What incentive do they have to do so? Steam might be able to afford it. GoG actually sells loot crates for games. All the other services don't have the power.

    I'd love to see this expand too but I'm not sure how it can take hold.
    MrMelGibson
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,420
    edited December 2017
    Torval said:
    I think we can all agree this is a good first step from apple's side. Let's hope it doesn't stop with them.
    Google and Microsoft don't have anything to gain by it. Apple can pull this because they have an app shop people want on because it generates revenue. Google has an app shop anyone can get on but doesn't generate much revenue by comparison. Microsoft is happy when anyone opens their shop at all. Publisher platforms (Uplay, Origin, Arc, Trion) have no incentive either.

    That leaves Steam, Good Old Games, and all the other smaller services. What incentive do they have to do so? Steam might be able to afford it. GoG actually sells loot crates for games. All the other services don't have the power.

    I'd love to see this expand too but I'm not sure how it can take hold.
    It could be more game dev/publisher based (Blizzard, Ubisoft, Activision, etc) rather than store service providers. Blizz has to reveal odds in china by law. Apple enforcing something similar in their store could potentially expand to those big game companies here in the west. It may never happen, or it may happen slowly.
    TorvalMrMelGibson




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