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Why don't more sandbox/open world MMOs like Ashes of Creation add PVE servers?

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  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,044
    Because Sandbox MMORPG needs to be open to both PVE, and PVP, like Crow Fall / Ashes OF Creation, there is no sense in having full PVE or PVP on a sandbox, Dark Fall for example to date because none of the other MMORPG has been released yet Dark Fall still one of the best MMORPG games that are Sandbox due to open world, PVE, and PVP / Full Loot.

    Arche Age & Albion are examples of failures of the Genre massive failures, Arche Age as we know has the big argument of pay 2 win, but they took a PVE game that was full PVE except for certain events and turned it into a game of griefing where you could declare war on the same faction and force PVP during trade runs and such with no countdown warning, and dictatorship of hero made me quit the game they lost over $1000 a year from me alone, and a lot of people started leaving around the time of this.

    Ashes OF Creation, and Crow Fall seem to be doing it right though, but obviously, I won't know until launch, I just know the concepts look very good for both games, but developers could always take the wrong path.

    https://discordapp.com/invite/ashesofcreation  If any are interested in Ashes OF Creation.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,773
    I think companies look at the numbers and have realized that due to the competitive nature of PvP players tend to spend more money in order to P2D, play to dominate.  

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • LeirosLeiros Member UncommonPosts: 276
    Personally, I too loved the flagging system of SWG. It allowed me to participate in PvP when I felt like it and go "covert" and hunt krayt dragons or Night Sisters when I just wanted to PvE. I thought it was a great compromise between the two.
    AlexisSteel

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  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,399
    Calling AOC a true sandbox MMO is a pathetic joke, that's your first mistake. Second I guess you have never heard or played Wurm Online which is the definition of a true sandbox MMO.

    Nothing on the MMO market gets closer to being sandbox than Wurm Online. 
    JamesGoblin




  • FreakyOzenFreakyOzen Member CommonPosts: 2
    I think they have answered why they don't want to have pve servers. Because they want the world to change and it is there the pvp comes in with node wars... Everytime a Node is destroyed the World changes.. New Bosses Dungeons etc etc. 

    On a PvE server it will Never change only be the same Bosses same Dungeons etc etc..
    Leiloni
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 10,747
    I think companies look at the numbers and have realized that due to the competitive nature of PvP players tend to spend more money in order to P2D, play to dominate.  
    If that was the case then EA and Bungie would not be getting all this backlash, it also totally ignores the demand for cosmetic items in cash shops. Take BDO, you can't buy anything in there related to PVP, it is all PVE related cash shop items, one of the things you are forgetting is that if you split the playerbase in terms of PVP/PVE its usually a 20/80 split, why would prioritise their cash shop sales towards 1/5th of the playerbase, also, if you sold a weapon in a cash shop, its pretty much a one off sale, whereas items related to PVE activities, and here i will again use BDO as an example, horse breeding reset tokens, are repeat sale types of items, as are artisans memories etc. even the costumes, because the emphasis in BDO is the account rather than an individual character, all inventory space is shared, as are pets/mounts/vehicles etc. when in storage, costumes cannot be shared and are character bound, some costumes also give bonuses to gathering etc. Either way, in BDO, you can throw as much real life cash at the game as you like, but it won't do you a shred of good in PVP, it will however improve your PVE activities quite a bit one way or another :p
    MrMelGibson
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    edited January 2018
    Renoaku said:
    Because Sandbox MMORPG needs to be open to both PVE, and PVP, like Crow Fall / Ashes OF Creation, there is no sense in having full PVE or PVP on a sandbox, Dark Fall for example to date because none of the other MMORPG has been released yet Dark Fall still one of the best MMORPG games that are Sandbox due to open world, PVE, and PVP / Full Loot.

    Arche Age & Albion are examples of failures of the Genre massive failures, Arche Age as we know has the big argument of pay 2 win, but they took a PVE game that was full PVE except for certain events and turned it into a game of griefing where you could declare war on the same faction and force PVP during trade runs and such with no countdown warning, and dictatorship of hero made me quit the game they lost over $1000 a year from me alone, and a lot of people started leaving around the time of this.

    Ashes OF Creation, and Crow Fall seem to be doing it right though, but obviously, I won't know until launch, I just know the concepts look very good for both games, but developers could always take the wrong path.

    https://discordapp.com/invite/ashesofcreation  If any are interested in Ashes OF Creation.
    But you wouldn't need to play on a PVE server if you want to do PvP so it wouldn't effect you. PVE players should have a choice if they want to play a sandbox game and don't want to do PvP. That doesn't effect PvPers at all, not real PvPers. It only effects gankers, but no one cares about them anyway since they self-destruct their own game environment (as seen in age of conan pvp servers and WoW pvp servers as two examples that are soon to be removed)

    Real pvp is in games like planetside 1/2, or fps games and what not.

    I'd play a PvP MMO if it was purely based on skill. And I play lots of PvP games, and love planetside. However MMOs generally do not have real PvP, hence why the MMO genre has so many people who only want to do PvE. And one would think since there are so many PvErs (in the MMO genre especially, other genres PvP is generally more popular), MMO companies would cater to them more.

    Which goes back, you lose nothing to those who only want to PvE. Unless you are a ganker, then no one cares about you anyway but other gankers. But if you are a true PvPer, then why would you care if there was a server where it was PvE only? You wouldn't ever have to play on it.
    bcbully

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,770
    Renoaku said:
    Because Sandbox MMORPG needs to be open to both PVE, and PVP, like Crow Fall / Ashes OF Creation, there is no sense in having full PVE or PVP on a sandbox,
    I don't really see that as truth.

    That's just talking preference. And it then brings the argument back to "what is a sandbox game".

    It makes perfect sense to have a "sandbox game" for people who are not interested in pvp.

    Heck, isn't "Tale in the Desert" a sandbox game that doesn't have "combat pvp"?

    Some would say Minecraft is the ultimate Sandbox game but there are certainly pve only servers.
    MrMelGibson



  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Sovrath said:
    Renoaku said:
    Because Sandbox MMORPG needs to be open to both PVE, and PVP, like Crow Fall / Ashes OF Creation, there is no sense in having full PVE or PVP on a sandbox,
    I don't really see that as truth.

    That's just talking preference. And it then brings the argument back to "what is a sandbox game".

    It makes perfect sense to have a "sandbox game" for people who are not interested in pvp.

    Heck, isn't "Tale in the Desert" a sandbox game that doesn't have "combat pvp"?

    Some would say Minecraft is the ultimate Sandbox game but there are certainly pve only servers.
    I like how Elite handles the same question.

    Same persistent universe, all data collected but you can play solo or private group if you want, or Open
    SovrathMrMelGibson

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  • FreakyOzenFreakyOzen Member CommonPosts: 2
    WoW is a themepark...it mostly focuses on PVE...but it has PvP servers. next update/expansion you'll be able to toggle pvp on/off on every server type.

    Why does every sandbox/open world MMO however, like ashes of creation, force pvp on everyone therefor driving off a huge massive population of PVErs that are in MMOs? EVE Online is pvp focused, but it was even said that most people stay in high-sec and almost barely of the population goes to nullsec. That works too, but most pvp only sandbox/open world MMOs don't even do that...and none of them are as successful as EVE...coincidence? Don't think so.

    WoW didn't change any mechanics for PvP, so nothing needs to change for PVE only. Heck, BDO is a PVP game and the most requested "feature" are PVE servers...but they are all ignored. A lot of PVPers hate the idea of optional PvP because they actually just want to gank people and not do true skill based PvP...but those are carebear PVPers like there are carebear PVErs.

    True pvpers that want a challenge and want to fight others who also want to fight them should have no problem with pvping those who want to pvp, and let PVErs have their own space to do their own thing. Yet no sandbox/open world MMO allows that...there is Ryzom, and I think Ryzom is the single only one. SWG too had optional PvP, and the somewhat large group of people did PVE only, but it had PvP for the somewhat large group who wanted to do that too.

    So why not give PvP an option like it is in SWG, or VERY safe areas like in EVE? Why force pvp to those who don't want it? Sure EVE PvP can happen anywhere, but its far safer and that works too where danger is everywhere. I only ever got pvped when I left high sec to go to nullsec (which btw, nullsec in EVE is the safest areas in the game funny enough, low-sec is very dangerous, but barely anyone in nullsec when I played)



    AoC deves have said that they there won't have pve servers because pvp is needed for the world to change. With no PvP = No Node wars = No change in the world. Will stay the same, Same dungeons same world bosses same events etc etc.

    I Never liked pvp but I get there point... Pvp i AoC is needed. If you want changes in the world.
    bcbully
  • azurreiazurrei Member UncommonPosts: 332
    Non-AAA devs like to keep their player base small to keep down on server costs/issues and encourage the P2W cash shops as you can't P2W too much in a PvE environment, after all.  Oh, and you really only need a few addicted whales to keep the servers running anyways. 

    Yes, I'm only half joking...
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,257
    edited January 2018
    WoW is a themepark...it mostly focuses on PVE...but it has PvP servers. next update/expansion you'll be able to toggle pvp on/off on every server type.

    Why does every sandbox/open world MMO however, like ashes of creation, force pvp on everyone therefor driving off a huge massive population of PVErs that are in MMOs? EVE Online is pvp focused, but it was even said that most people stay in high-sec and almost barely of the population goes to nullsec. That works too, but most pvp only sandbox/open world MMOs don't even do that...and none of them are as successful as EVE...coincidence? Don't think so.

    WoW didn't change any mechanics for PvP, so nothing needs to change for PVE only. Heck, BDO is a PVP game and the most requested "feature" are PVE servers...but they are all ignored. A lot of PVPers hate the idea of optional PvP because they actually just want to gank people and not do true skill based PvP...but those are carebear PVPers like there are carebear PVErs.

    True pvpers that want a challenge and want to fight others who also want to fight them should have no problem with pvping those who want to pvp, and let PVErs have their own space to do their own thing. Yet no sandbox/open world MMO allows that...there is Ryzom, and I think Ryzom is the single only one. SWG too had optional PvP, and the somewhat large group of people did PVE only, but it had PvP for the somewhat large group who wanted to do that too.

    So why not give PvP an option like it is in SWG, or VERY safe areas like in EVE? Why force pvp to those who don't want it? Sure EVE PvP can happen anywhere, but its far safer and that works too where danger is everywhere. I only ever got pvped when I left high sec to go to nullsec (which btw, nullsec in EVE is the safest areas in the game funny enough, low-sec is very dangerous, but barely anyone in nullsec when I played)



    AoC deves have said that they there won't have pve servers because pvp is needed for the world to change. With no PvP = No Node wars = No change in the world. Will stay the same, Same dungeons same world bosses same events etc etc.

    I Never liked pvp but I get there point... Pvp i AoC is needed. If you want changes in the world.
    A disingenuous answer by the devs of Ashes then, as all PVP does is drive certain triggers, when the conditions are met, the world changes.  They could develop another means to drive the triggers, based on the collective player base achieving certain objectives, heck, they could just have the world change randomly based on whatever algorithm they like.  They could even sell it in the cash shop.  :)


    Knytta

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    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,770
    WoW is a themepark...it mostly focuses on PVE...but it has PvP servers. next update/expansion you'll be able to toggle pvp on/off on every server type.

    Why does every sandbox/open world MMO however, like ashes of creation, force pvp on everyone therefor driving off a huge massive population of PVErs that are in MMOs? EVE Online is pvp focused, but it was even said that most people stay in high-sec and almost barely of the population goes to nullsec. That works too, but most pvp only sandbox/open world MMOs don't even do that...and none of them are as successful as EVE...coincidence? Don't think so.

    WoW didn't change any mechanics for PvP, so nothing needs to change for PVE only. Heck, BDO is a PVP game and the most requested "feature" are PVE servers...but they are all ignored. A lot of PVPers hate the idea of optional PvP because they actually just want to gank people and not do true skill based PvP...but those are carebear PVPers like there are carebear PVErs.

    True pvpers that want a challenge and want to fight others who also want to fight them should have no problem with pvping those who want to pvp, and let PVErs have their own space to do their own thing. Yet no sandbox/open world MMO allows that...there is Ryzom, and I think Ryzom is the single only one. SWG too had optional PvP, and the somewhat large group of people did PVE only, but it had PvP for the somewhat large group who wanted to do that too.

    So why not give PvP an option like it is in SWG, or VERY safe areas like in EVE? Why force pvp to those who don't want it? Sure EVE PvP can happen anywhere, but its far safer and that works too where danger is everywhere. I only ever got pvped when I left high sec to go to nullsec (which btw, nullsec in EVE is the safest areas in the game funny enough, low-sec is very dangerous, but barely anyone in nullsec when I played)



    AoC deves have said that they there won't have pve servers because pvp is needed for the world to change. With no PvP = No Node wars = No change in the world. Will stay the same, Same dungeons same world bosses same events etc etc.

    I Never liked pvp but I get there point... Pvp i AoC is needed. If you want changes in the world.
      I don't see why they couldn't have a serious pve opponent. Sort of like the Balaur in Aion or the invasions in Rift but with better ai.





  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    azurrei said:
    Non-AAA devs like to keep their player base small to keep down on server costs/issues and encourage the P2W cash shops as you can't P2W too much in a PvE environment, after all.  Oh, and you really only need a few addicted whales to keep the servers running anyways. 

    Yes, I'm only half joking...
    the better answer is that its easier to throw people in a room and have them create the tension and conflict themselves then it is to code it.

    pvp requires less work on the code side of things.
    Pingu2012Kyleran

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  • jonp200jonp200 Member UncommonPosts: 440
    It's a fair point.  I like PvP as much as the next guy.  I just don't like it all the time.  I find PvP servers just become a gank fest.  If that makes me a Carebear so be it.

    Seaspite
    Playing ESO on my X-Box


  • KnyttaKnytta Member UncommonPosts: 402
    edited January 2018
    I mostly agree with the OP, I just do not understand the business idea here. Create a game that most PVE players (if it all gets done and so on) really have been looking for a long time. Throw in PvP as a core function of the game. This will probably result in HUGE numbers of players the first weeks and then the numbers will decrease drastically after the PVE players leave as they realize they are the prey. Furthermore I am worried about the political system the risk for a situation where all servers are dominated of a few large guilds seems high and the smaller guilds might be allowed to be active on the remoter areas in the game. At best Ashes will be awesome at worst it will be "Mongol Horde Simulator"

    Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.

    He who can describe the flame does not burn.

    Petrarch


  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,002
    Ashes will not have PVE servers because the game itself is built around PVP and change.   What they need to make sure they balance is the PKing debuffs with allowing PVP in the open world.   I think they need some work on the PVP idea.   For example the SWG Flagging system is great.    However it has its flaws like allowing people to not be flagged and zerg a castle during a siege.   

    How I would fix this is use the SWG Flagging system,  BUT in a node that is undersiege I would make everyone in that node flagged for PVP.   The reason I would do that is because if you are in that zone during PVP you should be flagged and not protected by being in PVE mode.  That I feel would be a good compromise.  

    I would also make certain areas full out PVP areas so if you are there you will be flagged but I wouldnt make it so critical to PVE play that it forces PVE players into PVP areas.   I would make these areas lucrative like higher amounts of resources vs the PVE areas, but if a player does not want to engage in PVP and wants to get the same PVE resources just at a little slower rate then OK.  They will take risk with their caravans, but I think reducing the ganking and greifing PVP play should come in mind.  That does not mean that there will not be PVE players like myself in PVP areas getting more resources.  I will be there.  BUT I am going to bring friends who will own the solo or the 2 gankers in the area.  Its called friends and if I bring 4 or 5 very good PVPers and you alone try to PK me, well so sad so sorry when they kill you.  :)


     
  • ingiingi Member UncommonPosts: 18
    edited January 2018
    Eh, i'm not afraid of a little ganking. And the ganker who ruins your gameplay shouldn't be what defines the rest of the PvPers. It's just as bad as say, a PvE elitist who thinks he's deserving of worship because of his guilds progression. And I don't thikn that describes all the PvEr's out there. Fact is neither is more mature than the other.

    Having a server choice for PvP/PvE in a mmo isn't a something you'll find in all types of mmos, especially the new ones trying to distinguish themselves. Maybe they won't add a server type because 1) they don't want to split the playerbase or because 2) they don't want to come up with more server rulesets or maybe 3) they just don't want their game to exist without PvP because it goes against what product they want to deliver.
    Post edited by ingi on
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited January 2018
    ingi said:
    Eh, i'm not afraid of a little ganking. It's just as bad as say, a PvE elitist who thinks he's deserving of worship because of his guilds progression. ...
    what? it is? just as bad as what?

    kinda taking the pve thing a little personal dont you think?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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  • ingiingi Member UncommonPosts: 18
    edited January 2018
    SEANMCAD said:
    ingi said:
    Eh, i'm not afraid of a little ganking. It's just as bad as say, a PvE elitist who thinks he's deserving of worship because of his guilds progression. ...
    what? it is? just as bad as what?

    kinda taking the pve thing a little personal dont you think?
    A lot of people are disrespecting PvP in this thread and I'm simply saying PvErs can be just as bad. I fixed my post for clarity.
    Sovrath
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,257
    edited January 2018
    I agree with the content argument for one. You'd have to add more content and do it consistently, but it's more than that. In a lot of these games, PvP is an important element of the game and not a side activity. The developers want it to be a part of all the players' gameplay and they want it to be a focus of the game and of development.

    If you open a PvE server, what's happened in a lot of games, is that it attracts a lot of PvE only players who then demand the developers focus more time on them. Over the years the game changes and morphs into something it wasn't at the beginning, and PvP is forgotten.

    For PvP to be a focus it has to remain a priority and yes, that means some people won't like it and may not play, but that's the price developers have to pay if they want to keep their visions alive. Even WoW is a terrible example - at this stage of the game, world PvP is almost non-existent.
    Kyleranpantaro
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,048
    edited January 2018
    I presume most of those sandbox game don't have enough PvE content to keep PvE players interested long enough.  

    Also I presume ashes of creation center around idea of node and fighting around the node.  So it don't make sense it is a PvE game.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,257
    to add. PvPers lose nothing if there are PVE servers. Carebear pvpers do lose innocent victims (ganking) and people who only want to PVE. But otherwise nothing else is lost. Then PVErs get their own space to play in, and the two can coincide on their own servers. PvPers get to play with people who love/like PvP, and (carebear) PVErs their own thing.
    In some sense, you are saying removing a huge chunk of the food-chain wouldn't affect predators at all. 
    Also to add. PvPers lose nothing from people only playing on PVE servers. 

    You know why?

    a large amount of PVE only players (or what pvpers call carebears) would never play a pvp forced game

    So pvpers still lose nothing
    Here's the thing, some carebears like me can be enticed into playing a PVP game if it has designs which let me control the level of risk.

    An alternate rules PVE server would likely draw me away from the PVP world,  while the absence of it probably won't discourage me from playing.

    Its true, they'll totally lose the PVE only player, but those are the toughest to keep happy over the long term if the budget won't permit regular delivery of new content.

    CCP got thousands of dollars in sub fees across 7 years from someone who is about as carebear as they come ..

    B)
    TheScavenger

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Kyleran said:
    to add. PvPers lose nothing if there are PVE servers. Carebear pvpers do lose innocent victims (ganking) and people who only want to PVE. But otherwise nothing else is lost. Then PVErs get their own space to play in, and the two can coincide on their own servers. PvPers get to play with people who love/like PvP, and (carebear) PVErs their own thing.
    In some sense, you are saying removing a huge chunk of the food-chain wouldn't affect predators at all. 
    Also to add. PvPers lose nothing from people only playing on PVE servers. 

    You know why?

    a large amount of PVE only players (or what pvpers call carebears) would never play a pvp forced game

    So pvpers still lose nothing
    Here's the thing, some carebears like me can be enticed into playing a PVP game if it has designs which let me control the level of risk.

    An alternate rules PVE server would likely draw me away from the PVP world,  while the absence of it probably won't discourage me from playing.

    Its true, they'll totally lose the PVE only player, but those are the toughest to keep happy over the long term if the budget won't permit regular delivery of new content.

    CCP got thousands of dollars in sub fees across 7 years from someone who is about as carebear as they come ..

    B)
    Well, as far as sandbox MMOs go that are PvP everywhere...EVE Online definitely does it the best. I think they designed it that carebears even like it.

    You can stay in high-sec and be relatively safe (never been suicide ganked ever in 4 years of playing. Maybe just careful or maybe lucky or/and RNG lol). Or can go to low-sec for excitement. OR, go to null-sec and outside of chokepoints...null-sec is surprisingly safe as well.

    But here is where CCP succeeded. The above feature of security in space is only a tiny part of why EVE is the only real successful sandbox MMO to date.

    It has TONS of PvE content

    You can do so much PvE that you don't really need to do PvP at all. In fact, I've read people saying they barely have done any combat in the game unless they got forced into it. Otherwise they focus on all non-combat stuff. They do all the other stuff outside of combat.

    No other sandbox MMO lets you do that, nor has a fraction of PvE content that EVE Online has

    Hence why even carebears like EVE Online, despite it being open PvP. Heck, I'm also the most carebear of carebears, carebear as they come and I love EVE Online. 
    Knytta

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,257
    Zergy said:
    I still don't understand why more sandbox MMOs don't use a flagging system similar to SWG's.
    Its simple, most sandboxes are designed around territory and resource control, and here's the key part, "denial  of the same."

    While a PVE only server is feasible,  a shared world between flagged and unflagged players presents too many problems.

    These include the issue of people using unflagged alts to scout or spy on their enemies, or training npcs on top of other players (look up Fancy the Bard in EQ).

    Sure, these can be fixed, but then Devs have to write more code, which isn't necessary in PVP worlds,  devs can let players solve issues over camp stealing or hogging all on their own, and no real need for "play nice" rules or moderation like SOL is planning.
    pantarobcbully

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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