Yes, people pledge to games they want to see get made. If you find that entertaining ... that's great I guess. But if nobody pledges, the games never get made. If enough people pledge, sometimes they do. This is not hard to understand. And despite what estimation you may have of your own intelligence, you can't predict the future. Some of these games that people consider underdogs may succeed, your infantile circle jerk notwithstanding.
If I could predict the future, that would make these things a lot less entertaining actually. Caspien whining about how no publisher wants to get anywhere near him would have been a heck of a lot less interesting if I predicted it in advance for example. And then there's things like Star Citizen TANKing (there's a pun in there, for those who don't know what's going on with Star Citizen right now) and it's like, the best entertainers in the world couldn't make this stuff up! Nor could I have predicted it, and I'm glad I didn't!
So far up to the plate, we have Shroud of Avatar, Star Citizen, Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria, Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, etc etc.... you say some of them will succeed? Well let's see! Will any of them succeed? Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen! Er, but don't bet on SoTA. I consider that one failed already since it reached launch and proceeded to disappoint pretty much everyone besides like, 3 people. It sure was a hoot in doing so, though. Sales of Lord British's blood, USED TO MAKE ART. They friggin' monetized the death of Garriot's mother! Like I said, entertainers can't make this stuff up!
Crowfall just this month got a new $6 million cash infusion from outside investors, I'd say it will probably launch.
6 mill isn't very much by MMORPG standards. That said, Shroud of the Avatar launched too (eh, close enough) yet I don't consider it a success (I do consider it entertainment, though).
Besides, even if Crowfall does launch and somehow is successful, it was still fun to watch anyways. Unlike what Sedryn keeps yapping about, I don't "lose" just because a game "succeeds". Games are about entertainment, so I win as long as I'm entertained.
Nobody loses when an entertaining new game succeeds, which is what makes trying to tear them down so fucking stupid.
If the game fails to succeed just because some random message board person like me pointed at it and laughed, it probably was going to fail in the first place anyways.
The true reason games fail is because they run out of money. That's why I need you to give more money to CoE. If you don't, that's fine. There are plenty of other games with people willing to back them on sheer hopes and dreams despite all the red flags.
Yes, people pledge to games they want to see get made. If you find that entertaining ... that's great I guess. But if nobody pledges, the games never get made. If enough people pledge, sometimes they do. This is not hard to understand. And despite what estimation you may have of your own intelligence, you can't predict the future. Some of these games that people consider underdogs may succeed, your infantile circle jerk notwithstanding.
If I could predict the future, that would make these things a lot less entertaining actually. Caspien whining about how no publisher wants to get anywhere near him would have been a heck of a lot less interesting if I predicted it in advance for example. And then there's things like Star Citizen TANKing (there's a pun in there, for those who don't know what's going on with Star Citizen right now) and it's like, the best entertainers in the world couldn't make this stuff up! Nor could I have predicted it, and I'm glad I didn't!
So far up to the plate, we have Shroud of Avatar, Star Citizen, Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria, Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, etc etc.... you say some of them will succeed? Well let's see! Will any of them succeed? Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen! Er, but don't bet on SoTA. I consider that one failed already since it reached launch and proceeded to disappoint pretty much everyone besides like, 3 people. It sure was a hoot in doing so, though. Sales of Lord British's blood, USED TO MAKE ART. They friggin' monetized the death of Garriot's mother! Like I said, entertainers can't make this stuff up!
Crowfall just this month got a new $6 million cash infusion from outside investors, I'd say it will probably launch.
6 mill isn't very much by MMORPG standards. That said, Shroud of the Avatar launched too (eh, close enough) yet I don't consider it a success (I do consider it entertainment, though).
Besides, even if Crowfall does launch and somehow is successful, it was still fun to watch anyways. Unlike what Sedryn keeps yapping about, I don't "lose" just because a game "succeeds". Games are about entertainment, so I win as long as I'm entertained.
Nobody loses when an entertaining new game succeeds, which is what makes trying to tear them down so fucking stupid.
I'll let you in on a little secret: If CoE was an actual entertaining new game it would succeed regardless of what Slapshot says on a message board.
IMHO You are falling into Caspien's trap. It's not Slapshot's fault, nor anyone else's fault here if it fails. It's the developers fault. When that developer spurns honest criticism for a business plan and timeline that simply don't make sense, and then apparently can't raise money due to the same... that's all on him. Well, I'd also put a small sliver of the blame on the apologists and excusemakers who enable him, but that's just me.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Well, the development raised all of my flags , yellow and the red ones. The initial concept got me really excited but you can't blame anyone for thinking this is not worthy of your time/attention - or that is a scam.
The way devs are handling the schedule and milestones makes think they live in Kirby's Dreamland.
The initial concept made me worried, actually pretty sure that they won't even get close to launch. I was simply wondering where is he going to find all the money, it's at least an order of magnitude above of what they have.
In the meantime I moved from "pretty sure they won't launch" to "they certainly won't", same as for Pantheon, and "Ashes..." is quickly moving the same way.
Unlike them, Camelot Unchained and Crowfall will, at least, have a chance to fail.
CoE needing ridiculous amounts of time AND money AND tech AND talent that it doesn't have doesn't really have anything to do with gamers, I think? Unless I'm missing something here.
oh no, of course it doesn't. But I'm trying to tie in the idea that gamers constantly complain about developers not doing things differently, not taking risks, not "doing whatever".
Well "ok" here's a company with a game with large scope. They are doing things differently, they are taking chances and and bam - money is an issue.
It's this never ending mantra about "greedy developers" yet we constantly hear stories about plucky little game companies trying to make the games they want to play but not being able to do so because there isn't enough money.
Then some armchair game developer, who has never made a game, says "games don't cost x these companies are just greedy".
Well, I will say that it seems that many game companies are created by people with their hearts in the right places (looking at you Curt Schilling) but without much knowledge how to actually run a business or with any realistic financial goals.
OR ...
I'll say that maybe they DO know, off the bat, - might as well tie in the Schilling/baseball thing - yes I know he's a pitcher) they can't afford to make the game but they do it anyway because "somehow" they will get the money.
I worked with a startup that was like that. The founder told me he liked taking chances and trying to make things happen. And if they didn't work out he's find another way to do it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
CoE needing ridiculous amounts of time AND money AND tech AND talent that it doesn't have doesn't really have anything to do with gamers, I think? Unless I'm missing something here.
oh no, of course it doesn't. But I'm trying to tie in the idea that gamers constantly complain about developers not doing things differently, not taking risks, not "doing whatever".
Well "ok" here's a company with a game with large scope. They are doing things differently, they are taking chances and and bam - money is an issue.
It's this never ending mantra about "greedy developers" yet we constantly hear stories about plucky little game companies trying to make the games they want to play but not being able to do so because there isn't enough money.
Then some armchair game developer, who has never made a game, says "games don't cost x these companies are just greedy".
Well, I will say that it seems that many game companies are created by people with their hearts in the right places (looking at you Curt Schilling) but without much knowledge how to actually run a business or with any realistic financial goals.
OR ...
I'll say that maybe they DO know, off the bat, - might as well tie in the Schilling/baseball thing - yes I know he's a pitcher) they can't afford to make the game but they do it anyway because "somehow" they will get the money.
I worked with a startup that was like that. The founder told me he liked taking chances and trying to make things happen. And if they didn't work out he's find another way to do it.
You setup a false choice. The choice isn't simply between "greedy developers" and incompetent developers that have no clue about the cost of a game nor the time it takes to make it. There is in fact a middle ground and plenty of developers have found that. Eventually MMORPG developers will as well. The only way they will get there is when the market pushes them there. Bending over and smiling will not accomplish that.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
CoE needing ridiculous amounts of time AND money AND tech AND talent that it doesn't have doesn't really have anything to do with gamers, I think? Unless I'm missing something here.
oh no, of course it doesn't. But I'm trying to tie in the idea that gamers constantly complain about developers not doing things differently, not taking risks, not "doing whatever".
Well "ok" here's a company with a game with large scope. They are doing things differently, they are taking chances and and bam - money is an issue.
It's this never ending mantra about "greedy developers" yet we constantly hear stories about plucky little game companies trying to make the games they want to play but not being able to do so because there isn't enough money.
Then some armchair game developer, who has never made a game, says "games don't cost x these companies are just greedy".
Well, I will say that it seems that many game companies are created by people with their hearts in the right places (looking at you Curt Schilling) but without much knowledge how to actually run a business or with any realistic financial goals.
OR ...
I'll say that maybe they DO know, off the bat, - might as well tie in the Schilling/baseball thing - yes I know he's a pitcher) they can't afford to make the game but they do it anyway because "somehow" they will get the money.
I worked with a startup that was like that. The founder told me he liked taking chances and trying to make things happen. And if they didn't work out he's find another way to do it.
Yea, Slapshot answered it for me. I guess I'm confused and unable to draw the comparison because I play a lot of games being made by developers who are neither super-greedy (EA) nor super-incompetent (CoE). Contrary to Sedryn's belief, these forums aren't my only source of entertainment, although crowd funding has certainly made them more entertaining than they used to be.
For all my "hate-filled" posts on this forum, I don't think I've ever made one where I have nothing to play. Because I have plenty to play that isn't being done by greedy or terrible programmers. I just don't talk about them on these forums for multiple reasons (I don't need to support them, unlike Sedryn supporting CoE, because they'll succeed on their own, for one thing)
CoE needing ridiculous amounts of time AND money AND tech AND talent that it doesn't have doesn't really have anything to do with gamers, I think? Unless I'm missing something here.
oh no, of course it doesn't. But I'm trying to tie in the idea that gamers constantly complain about developers not doing things differently, not taking risks, not "doing whatever".
Well "ok" here's a company with a game with large scope. They are doing things differently, they are taking chances and and bam - money is an issue.
It's this never ending mantra about "greedy developers" yet we constantly hear stories about plucky little game companies trying to make the games they want to play but not being able to do so because there isn't enough money.
Then some armchair game developer, who has never made a game, says "games don't cost x these companies are just greedy".
Well, I will say that it seems that many game companies are created by people with their hearts in the right places (looking at you Curt Schilling) but without much knowledge how to actually run a business or with any realistic financial goals.
OR ...
I'll say that maybe they DO know, off the bat, - might as well tie in the Schilling/baseball thing - yes I know he's a pitcher) they can't afford to make the game but they do it anyway because "somehow" they will get the money.
I worked with a startup that was like that. The founder told me he liked taking chances and trying to make things happen. And if they didn't work out he's find another way to do it.
You setup a false choice. The choice isn't simply between "greedy developers" and incompetent developers that have no clue about the cost of a game nor the time it takes to make it. There is in fact a middle ground and plenty of developers have found that. Eventually MMORPG developers will as well. The only way they will get there is when the market pushes them there. Bending over and smiling will not accomplish that.
meh, I wouldn't go so far as to say I set up a false choice. It's a forum post, those were just two extreme examples that came to mind. And examples that players have brought up. Not myself. Come on, you can't say there isn't a litany of players who jump on each news story decrying developers for not following how the players "think" it all should go?
I personally don't believe in the greedy developer. I do believe in the incompetent developer and the inexperienced developer and the developer who says "fuck it" I'm just going to see what happens. But of course I believe in the competent developer. I've played their games.
And yes, indy developers with single player games have done well. I strongly suspect, which has also been said before, that multiplayer games are just very hard to make and to make well.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Yea, Slapshot answered it for me. I guess I'm confused and unable to draw the comparison because I play a lot of games being made by developers who are neither super-greedy (EA) nor super-incompetent (CoE). Contrary to Sedryn's belief, these forums aren't my only source of entertainment, although crowd funding has certainly made them more entertaining than they used to be.
For all my "hate-filled" posts on this forum, I don't think I've ever made one where I have nothing to play. Because I have plenty to play that isn't being done by greedy or terrible programmers. I just don't talk about them on these forums for multiple reasons (I don't need to support them, unlike Sedryn supporting CoE, because they'll succeed on their own, for one thing)
Again, these are not my categories, this is what I've noticed from these forums, players constantly admonishing developers for not being perfect and doing things the way they think they should be done.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Yea, Slapshot answered it for me. I guess I'm confused and unable to draw the comparison because I play a lot of games being made by developers who are neither super-greedy (EA) nor super-incompetent (CoE). Contrary to Sedryn's belief, these forums aren't my only source of entertainment, although crowd funding has certainly made them more entertaining than they used to be.
For all my "hate-filled" posts on this forum, I don't think I've ever made one where I have nothing to play. Because I have plenty to play that isn't being done by greedy or terrible programmers. I just don't talk about them on these forums for multiple reasons (I don't need to support them, unlike Sedryn supporting CoE, because they'll succeed on their own, for one thing)
Again, these are not my categories, this is what I've noticed from these forums, players constantly admonishing developers for not being perfect and doing things the way they think they should be done.
Possibly because there's a lot longer time period where gamers are exposed to the day-to-day actions of developers with crowdfunding. Simply more opportunity to have things happen one doesn't agree with when every little development move made is reported on, from pre-alpha through launch.
Maybe not, but it seems logical to me. That comes with the crowd funding territory right now because it's a big deal for the genre.
Yea, Slapshot answered it for me. I guess I'm confused and unable to draw the comparison because I play a lot of games being made by developers who are neither super-greedy (EA) nor super-incompetent (CoE). Contrary to Sedryn's belief, these forums aren't my only source of entertainment, although crowd funding has certainly made them more entertaining than they used to be.
For all my "hate-filled" posts on this forum, I don't think I've ever made one where I have nothing to play. Because I have plenty to play that isn't being done by greedy or terrible programmers. I just don't talk about them on these forums for multiple reasons (I don't need to support them, unlike Sedryn supporting CoE, because they'll succeed on their own, for one thing)
Again, these are not my categories, this is what I've noticed from these forums, players constantly admonishing developers for not being perfect and doing things the way they think they should be done.
Possibly because there's a lot longer time period where gamers are exposed to the day-to-day actions of developers with crowdfunding. Simply more opportunity to have things happen one doesn't agree with when every little development move made is reported on, from pre-alpha through launch.
Maybe not, but it seems logical to me. That comes with the crowd funding territory right now because it's a big deal for the genre.
That's true. And definitely a part of the issue.
So, some players say that developers shouldn't be beholden to publishers. Heck, a poster above even posited why they even need publishers.
But crowdfunding just makes the developers beholden to those who gave. The same issues are there, a group of people who have given money and want what they want, want "some sort of return" and when things don't go the way they think it should go they chime up.
All developers have done is changed the name of the group they need to answer to.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Yea, Slapshot answered it for me. I guess I'm confused and unable to draw the comparison because I play a lot of games being made by developers who are neither super-greedy (EA) nor super-incompetent (CoE). Contrary to Sedryn's belief, these forums aren't my only source of entertainment, although crowd funding has certainly made them more entertaining than they used to be.
For all my "hate-filled" posts on this forum, I don't think I've ever made one where I have nothing to play. Because I have plenty to play that isn't being done by greedy or terrible programmers. I just don't talk about them on these forums for multiple reasons (I don't need to support them, unlike Sedryn supporting CoE, because they'll succeed on their own, for one thing)
Again, these are not my categories, this is what I've noticed from these forums, players constantly admonishing developers for not being perfect and doing things the way they think they should be done.
Possibly because there's a lot longer time period where gamers are exposed to the day-to-day actions of developers with crowdfunding. Simply more opportunity to have things happen one doesn't agree with when every little development move made is reported on, from pre-alpha through launch.
Maybe not, but it seems logical to me. That comes with the crowd funding territory right now because it's a big deal for the genre.
That's true. And definitely a part of the issue.
So, some players say that developers shouldn't be beholden to publishers. Heck, a poster above even posited why they even need publishers.
But crowdfunding just makes the developers beholden to those who gave. The same issues are there, a group of people who have given money and want what they want, want "some sort of return" and when things don't go the way they think it should go they chime up.
All developers have done is changed the name of the group they need to answer to.
I agree. And instead of a known goal everyone is working towards, you have thousands of related-but-unique goals that may be impossible to accomplish.
It's less than ideal, but I find it balances in the fact that the folks you're answering to during crowdfunding are much more gullible than a publisher would be.
Its certainly not the situation I thought it would be when the wave of projects began.
I'm a whale so I can deal with developer greed directly. THe problem is the greed often comes at the expense of the game. In Battlefront's case, if I hypothetically was into that game, EA's "greed" by itself wouldn't be a problem. It's that they extended the grind to stupid proportions, hurting the fun factor of the game, just for the lootboxes where the problems come in.
The same goes for most crowdfunding incentives and pre-sales of various in-game items, where developers are now restricted and forced into doing things either at the cost of the game or at the cost of resources that could have gone towards more worthwhile parts of the game.
Yea, Slapshot answered it for me. I guess I'm confused and unable to draw the comparison because I play a lot of games being made by developers who are neither super-greedy (EA) nor super-incompetent (CoE). Contrary to Sedryn's belief, these forums aren't my only source of entertainment, although crowd funding has certainly made them more entertaining than they used to be.
For all my "hate-filled" posts on this forum, I don't think I've ever made one where I have nothing to play. Because I have plenty to play that isn't being done by greedy or terrible programmers. I just don't talk about them on these forums for multiple reasons (I don't need to support them, unlike Sedryn supporting CoE, because they'll succeed on their own, for one thing)
Again, these are not my categories, this is what I've noticed from these forums, players constantly admonishing developers for not being perfect and doing things the way they think they should be done.
Possibly because there's a lot longer time period where gamers are exposed to the day-to-day actions of developers with crowdfunding. Simply more opportunity to have things happen one doesn't agree with when every little development move made is reported on, from pre-alpha through launch.
Maybe not, but it seems logical to me. That comes with the crowd funding territory right now because it's a big deal for the genre.
That's true. And definitely a part of the issue.
So, some players say that developers shouldn't be beholden to publishers. Heck, a poster above even posited why they even need publishers.
But crowdfunding just makes the developers beholden to those who gave. The same issues are there, a group of people who have given money and want what they want, want "some sort of return" and when things don't go the way they think it should go they chime up.
All developers have done is changed the name of the group they need to answer to.
I agree. And instead of a known goal everyone is working towards, you have thousands of related-but-unique goals that may be impossible to accomplish.
It's less than ideal, but I find it balances in the fact that the folks you're answering to during crowdfunding are much more gullible than a publisher would be.
Its certainly not the situation I thought it would be when the wave of projects began.
It's very possible they are gullible or truly believe there is another way and they are a part of it (which some might just say is "gullible").
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Yea, Slapshot answered it for me. I guess I'm confused and unable to draw the comparison because I play a lot of games being made by developers who are neither super-greedy (EA) nor super-incompetent (CoE). Contrary to Sedryn's belief, these forums aren't my only source of entertainment, although crowd funding has certainly made them more entertaining than they used to be.
For all my "hate-filled" posts on this forum, I don't think I've ever made one where I have nothing to play. Because I have plenty to play that isn't being done by greedy or terrible programmers. I just don't talk about them on these forums for multiple reasons (I don't need to support them, unlike Sedryn supporting CoE, because they'll succeed on their own, for one thing)
Again, these are not my categories, this is what I've noticed from these forums, players constantly admonishing developers for not being perfect and doing things the way they think they should be done.
Possibly because there's a lot longer time period where gamers are exposed to the day-to-day actions of developers with crowdfunding. Simply more opportunity to have things happen one doesn't agree with when every little development move made is reported on, from pre-alpha through launch.
Maybe not, but it seems logical to me. That comes with the crowd funding territory right now because it's a big deal for the genre.
That's true. And definitely a part of the issue.
So, some players say that developers shouldn't be beholden to publishers. Heck, a poster above even posited why they even need publishers.
But crowdfunding just makes the developers beholden to those who gave. The same issues are there, a group of people who have given money and want what they want, want "some sort of return" and when things don't go the way they think it should go they chime up.
All developers have done is changed the name of the group they need to answer to.
I agree. And instead of a known goal everyone is working towards, you have thousands of related-but-unique goals that may be impossible to accomplish.
It's less than ideal, but I find it balances in the fact that the folks you're answering to during crowdfunding are much more gullible than a publisher would be.
Its certainly not the situation I thought it would be when the wave of projects began.
It's very possible they are gullible or truly believe there is another way and they are a part of it (which some might just say is "gullible").
Which is why I believe folks get personally attached in defending games. Failure in their minds means acknowledging that gullibility. But what do I know? It’s not like we’ve ever seen this before... right?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
IMO just because a game is set in medieval time, it doesn't have to look like out of shape people larping (but float when they jump).
CoE has some cool ideas, it even has some rendering engine polish, but the most forward facing features are square. I know there are plenty of neck beards, mullets and pony tails who will think I'm a mad man for saying this.
You put this game up on a big screen during any gaming con, more than likely crickets and awkward claps will follow (maybe one "WOO" from the creepy fan-intern-lets-meet-devs-for-drinks guy).
Maybe that's what folks with the funding are seeing? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Yea, Slapshot answered it for me. I guess I'm confused and unable to draw the comparison because I play a lot of games being made by developers who are neither super-greedy (EA) nor super-incompetent (CoE). Contrary to Sedryn's belief, these forums aren't my only source of entertainment, although crowd funding has certainly made them more entertaining than they used to be.
For all my "hate-filled" posts on this forum, I don't think I've ever made one where I have nothing to play. Because I have plenty to play that isn't being done by greedy or terrible programmers. I just don't talk about them on these forums for multiple reasons (I don't need to support them, unlike Sedryn supporting CoE, because they'll succeed on their own, for one thing)
Again, these are not my categories, this is what I've noticed from these forums, players constantly admonishing developers for not being perfect and doing things the way they think they should be done.
Possibly because there's a lot longer time period where gamers are exposed to the day-to-day actions of developers with crowdfunding. Simply more opportunity to have things happen one doesn't agree with when every little development move made is reported on, from pre-alpha through launch.
Maybe not, but it seems logical to me. That comes with the crowd funding territory right now because it's a big deal for the genre.
That's true. And definitely a part of the issue.
So, some players say that developers shouldn't be beholden to publishers. Heck, a poster above even posited why they even need publishers.
But crowdfunding just makes the developers beholden to those who gave. The same issues are there, a group of people who have given money and want what they want, want "some sort of return" and when things don't go the way they think it should go they chime up.
All developers have done is changed the name of the group they need to answer to.
I agree. And instead of a known goal everyone is working towards, you have thousands of related-but-unique goals that may be impossible to accomplish.
It's less than ideal, but I find it balances in the fact that the folks you're answering to during crowdfunding are much more gullible than a publisher would be.
Its certainly not the situation I thought it would be when the wave of projects began.
It's very possible they are gullible or truly believe there is another way and they are a part of it (which some might just say is "gullible").
Which is why I believe folks get personally attached in defending games. Failure in their minds means acknowledging that gullibility. But what do I know? It’s not like we’ve ever seen this before... right?
That's part of it but I also don't think anything awesome can necessarily fit into an easy made template where one can measure exactly how things are going to be.
It's true that there are people who can't accept that a certain endeavor might be a failure and they might think their involvement in it reflects badly on them.
I also think it's true that some things just don't follow business as usual and that the road to success can be a bit circuitous.
Of course this is game development where, if you've launched a game, even if it's not great, you are still considered a success given how difficult it is.
In the end the proof is in the pudding. Launch! That's the only way to prove that it can be done. Anything behind that, all the screen shots, videos, interviews, mean nothing.
Launch!
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Yes, people pledge to games they want to see get made. If you find that entertaining ... that's great I guess. But if nobody pledges, the games never get made. If enough people pledge, sometimes they do. This is not hard to understand. And despite what estimation you may have of your own intelligence, you can't predict the future. Some of these games that people consider underdogs may succeed, your infantile circle jerk notwithstanding.
If I could predict the future, that would make these things a lot less entertaining actually. Caspien whining about how no publisher wants to get anywhere near him would have been a heck of a lot less interesting if I predicted it in advance for example. And then there's things like Star Citizen TANKing (there's a pun in there, for those who don't know what's going on with Star Citizen right now) and it's like, the best entertainers in the world couldn't make this stuff up! Nor could I have predicted it, and I'm glad I didn't!
So far up to the plate, we have Shroud of Avatar, Star Citizen, Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria, Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, etc etc.... you say some of them will succeed? Well let's see! Will any of them succeed? Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen! Er, but don't bet on SoTA. I consider that one failed already since it reached launch and proceeded to disappoint pretty much everyone besides like, 3 people. It sure was a hoot in doing so, though. Sales of Lord British's blood, USED TO MAKE ART. They friggin' monetized the death of Garriot's mother! Like I said, entertainers can't make this stuff up!
Crowfall just this month got a new $6 million cash infusion from outside investors, I'd say it will probably launch.
6 mill isn't very much by MMORPG standards. That said, Shroud of the Avatar launched too (eh, close enough) yet I don't consider it a success (I do consider it entertainment, though).
Besides, even if Crowfall does launch and somehow is successful, it was still fun to watch anyways. Unlike what Sedryn keeps yapping about, I don't "lose" just because a game "succeeds". Games are about entertainment, so I win as long as I'm entertained.
Nobody loses when an entertaining new game succeeds, which is what makes trying to tear them down so fucking stupid.
I'll let you in on a little secret: If CoE was an actual entertaining new game it would succeed regardless of what Slapshot says on a message board.
IMHO You are falling into Caspien's trap. It's not Slapshot's fault, nor anyone else's fault here if it fails. It's the developers fault. When that developer spurns honest criticism for a business plan and timeline that simply don't make sense, and then apparently can't raise money due to the same... that's all on him. Well, I'd also put a small sliver of the blame on the apologists and excusemakers who enable him, but that's just me.
I'm very critical of finished products but I don't see the value is relentless criticism against products in development. That, to me, is of no value and is basically punishing the producers for choosing a method of funding that has more transparency than other, traditional funding methods. Basically, all these sorts of threads do is put emotional drag on the project. It's Caspian who is guilty of falling into your trap because he has, unfortunately, actually made time to respond to your threads when really he'd be better off ignoring you altogether. Of course, you don't have to keep railing against him and dissecting every questionable decision he makes either but you delight in doing so. And I do understand why that compels him to respond, even though his best course of action is probably to pretend like you don't exist at this point.
Again... it's not Slapshot's fault. If he had delivered on what he had said, when he said he would do it... everyone (including me) would be happy. Unfortunately... HE failed to do so... so put the blame where it belongs. It's laughable how far you go to deflect that.
Is ANYTHING posted in this thread untrue? If so.. simply let me know and if verified I will change it. Instead... as is typical... you complain about the symptom (people "complaining") instead of the root cause (the topics we discuss).
You want Slapshot to stop "complaining"? Say what you mean and do what you say when you say you will do it. It's really that simple.
Maybe instead of putting money in... if people stopped for a second and said... "Hey the timeline you state is impossible with the features you list... and thus the money seems wrong" he would have been forced to re-evaluate and actually come up with a working plan on day 1. Instead people threw money at him and made excuses. THIS is the result of that. Slapshot "complaining" didn't cause this. YOU did.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Yes, people pledge to games they want to see get made. If you find that entertaining ... that's great I guess. But if nobody pledges, the games never get made. If enough people pledge, sometimes they do. This is not hard to understand. And despite what estimation you may have of your own intelligence, you can't predict the future. Some of these games that people consider underdogs may succeed, your infantile circle jerk notwithstanding.
If I could predict the future, that would make these things a lot less entertaining actually. Caspien whining about how no publisher wants to get anywhere near him would have been a heck of a lot less interesting if I predicted it in advance for example. And then there's things like Star Citizen TANKing (there's a pun in there, for those who don't know what's going on with Star Citizen right now) and it's like, the best entertainers in the world couldn't make this stuff up! Nor could I have predicted it, and I'm glad I didn't!
So far up to the plate, we have Shroud of Avatar, Star Citizen, Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria, Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, etc etc.... you say some of them will succeed? Well let's see! Will any of them succeed? Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen! Er, but don't bet on SoTA. I consider that one failed already since it reached launch and proceeded to disappoint pretty much everyone besides like, 3 people. It sure was a hoot in doing so, though. Sales of Lord British's blood, USED TO MAKE ART. They friggin' monetized the death of Garriot's mother! Like I said, entertainers can't make this stuff up!
Crowfall just this month got a new $6 million cash infusion from outside investors, I'd say it will probably launch.
crowfall is the one game in dev that I see launching in the not too distant future with a good start and footing.
Yes, people pledge to games they want to see get made. If you find that entertaining ... that's great I guess. But if nobody pledges, the games never get made. If enough people pledge, sometimes they do. This is not hard to understand. And despite what estimation you may have of your own intelligence, you can't predict the future. Some of these games that people consider underdogs may succeed, your infantile circle jerk notwithstanding.
If I could predict the future, that would make these things a lot less entertaining actually. Caspien whining about how no publisher wants to get anywhere near him would have been a heck of a lot less interesting if I predicted it in advance for example. And then there's things like Star Citizen TANKing (there's a pun in there, for those who don't know what's going on with Star Citizen right now) and it's like, the best entertainers in the world couldn't make this stuff up! Nor could I have predicted it, and I'm glad I didn't!
So far up to the plate, we have Shroud of Avatar, Star Citizen, Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria, Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, etc etc.... you say some of them will succeed? Well let's see! Will any of them succeed? Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen! Er, but don't bet on SoTA. I consider that one failed already since it reached launch and proceeded to disappoint pretty much everyone besides like, 3 people. It sure was a hoot in doing so, though. Sales of Lord British's blood, USED TO MAKE ART. They friggin' monetized the death of Garriot's mother! Like I said, entertainers can't make this stuff up!
Crowfall just this month got a new $6 million cash infusion from outside investors, I'd say it will probably launch.
6 mill isn't very much by MMORPG standards. That said, Shroud of the Avatar launched too (eh, close enough) yet I don't consider it a success (I do consider it entertainment, though).
Besides, even if Crowfall does launch and somehow is successful, it was still fun to watch anyways. Unlike what Sedryn keeps yapping about, I don't "lose" just because a game "succeeds". Games are about entertainment, so I win as long as I'm entertained.
Nobody loses when an entertaining new game succeeds, which is what makes trying to tear them down so fucking stupid.
I'll let you in on a little secret: If CoE was an actual entertaining new game it would succeed regardless of what Slapshot says on a message board.
IMHO You are falling into Caspien's trap. It's not Slapshot's fault, nor anyone else's fault here if it fails. It's the developers fault. When that developer spurns honest criticism for a business plan and timeline that simply don't make sense, and then apparently can't raise money due to the same... that's all on him. Well, I'd also put a small sliver of the blame on the apologists and excusemakers who enable him, but that's just me.
I'm very critical of finished products but I don't see the value is relentless criticism against products in development. That, to me, is of no value and is basically punishing the producers for choosing a method of funding that has more transparency than other, traditional funding methods. Basically, all these sorts of threads do is put emotional drag on the project. It's Caspian who is guilty of falling into your trap because he has, unfortunately, actually made time to respond to your threads when really he'd be better off ignoring you altogether. Of course, you don't have to keep railing against him and dissecting every questionable decision he makes either but you delight in doing so. And I do understand why that compels him to respond, even though his best course of action is probably to pretend like you don't exist at this point.
It's funny to me how the CoE project has taken an almost identical trajectory as Pathfinder Online.
1. CEO never made an MMORPG before. 2. Kickstarter raises paltry amount of funds to produce an MMORPG 3. Can't find an investor.
My guess is that CoE will also launch way too early as a way to start the financial recoup process, and it will fall apart and reduce to a tiny group of delusion diehards before ultimately shutting down without having achieved even 50% of the specified feature-set.
If this Caspian guy actually pulls off a success here, it will be a story far more interesting and notable than Star Citizen.
I don't think he will, and deep down I feel bad for the guy. It would seem to me one of those incredibly emotionally draining ventures that causes a lot of upheaval in your life when it goes bad.
So far ive had about 50% success rate with games that I have backed, and I am more than happy to back an "idea" but I do have rules that I strictly follow before I do.
The first and main rule is read up on the CV,s and past statements by the main personalities involved in the product, this has saved me time and money on a number of occasions, look at the people not the product to start with.........Looking at you Ashes (not only puts wallet away, he hides wallet and denies ever knowing its existence )
In the case of CoE I chose not to back because of the personalities early on, this has not always worked and made some giant blunders years ago falling for the spin and not the substance of talent, ability and fiscal common sense...................(yeah I backed Mortal Online and LEARNT a lot ).
So far ive had about 50% success rate with games that I have backed, and I am more than happy to back an "idea" but I do have rules that I strictly follow before I do.
The first and main rule is read up on the CV,s and past statements by the main personalities involved in the product, this has saved me time and money on a number of occasions, look at the people not the product to start with.........Looking at you Ashes (not only puts wallet away, he hides wallet and denies ever knowing its existence )
In the case of CoE I chose not to back because of the personalities early on, this has not always worked and made some giant blunders years ago falling for the spin and not the substance of talent, ability and fiscal common sense...................(yeah I backed Mortal Online and LEARNT a lot ).
This is pretty much how I do it and also one of the reasons I didn't back this project. There were just some things said that didn't point to "professional".
How, having said that, if the game launches it doesn't really matter. I mean I listen to music/watch movies made by some deplorable people. But their work is good.
So if this is good then sure I'll play it. But at launch.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
The true reason games fail is because they run out of money. That's why I need you to give more money to CoE. If you don't, that's fine. There are plenty of other games with people willing to back them on sheer hopes and dreams despite all the red flags.
IMHO You are falling into Caspien's trap. It's not Slapshot's fault, nor anyone else's fault here if it fails. It's the developers fault. When that developer spurns honest criticism for a business plan and timeline that simply don't make sense, and then apparently can't raise money due to the same... that's all on him. Well, I'd also put a small sliver of the blame on the apologists and excusemakers who enable him, but that's just me.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
In the meantime I moved from "pretty sure they won't launch" to "they certainly won't", same as for Pantheon, and "Ashes..." is quickly moving the same way.
Unlike them, Camelot Unchained and Crowfall will, at least, have a chance to fail.
Well "ok" here's a company with a game with large scope. They are doing things differently, they are taking chances and and bam - money is an issue.
It's this never ending mantra about "greedy developers" yet we constantly hear stories about plucky little game companies trying to make the games they want to play but not being able to do so because there isn't enough money.
Then some armchair game developer, who has never made a game, says "games don't cost x these companies are just greedy".
Well, I will say that it seems that many game companies are created by people with their hearts in the right places (looking at you Curt Schilling) but without much knowledge how to actually run a business or with any realistic financial goals.
OR ...
I'll say that maybe they DO know, off the bat, - might as well tie in the Schilling/baseball thing - yes I know he's a pitcher) they can't afford to make the game but they do it anyway because "somehow" they will get the money.
I worked with a startup that was like that. The founder told me he liked taking chances and trying to make things happen. And if they didn't work out he's find another way to do it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For all my "hate-filled" posts on this forum, I don't think I've ever made one where I have nothing to play. Because I have plenty to play that isn't being done by greedy or terrible programmers. I just don't talk about them on these forums for multiple reasons (I don't need to support them, unlike Sedryn supporting CoE, because they'll succeed on their own, for one thing)
I personally don't believe in the greedy developer. I do believe in the incompetent developer and the inexperienced developer and the developer who says "fuck it" I'm just going to see what happens. But of course I believe in the competent developer. I've played their games.
And yes, indy developers with single player games have done well. I strongly suspect, which has also been said before, that multiplayer games are just very hard to make and to make well.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Maybe not, but it seems logical to me. That comes with the crowd funding territory right now because it's a big deal for the genre.
So, some players say that developers shouldn't be beholden to publishers. Heck, a poster above even posited why they even need publishers.
But crowdfunding just makes the developers beholden to those who gave. The same issues are there, a group of people who have given money and want what they want, want "some sort of return" and when things don't go the way they think it should go they chime up.
All developers have done is changed the name of the group they need to answer to.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It's less than ideal, but I find it balances in the fact that the folks you're answering to during crowdfunding are much more gullible than a publisher would be.
Its certainly not the situation I thought it would be when the wave of projects began.
The same goes for most crowdfunding incentives and pre-sales of various in-game items, where developers are now restricted and forced into doing things either at the cost of the game or at the cost of resources that could have gone towards more worthwhile parts of the game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
IMO just because a game is set in medieval time, it doesn't have to look like out of shape people larping (but float when they jump).
CoE has some cool ideas, it even has some rendering engine polish, but the most forward facing features are square. I know there are plenty of neck beards, mullets and pony tails who will think I'm a mad man for saying this.
You put this game up on a big screen during any gaming con, more than likely crickets and awkward claps will follow (maybe one "WOO" from the creepy fan-intern-lets-meet-devs-for-drinks guy).
Maybe that's what folks with the funding are seeing? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It's true that there are people who can't accept that a certain endeavor might be a failure and they might think their involvement in it reflects badly on them.
I also think it's true that some things just don't follow business as usual and that the road to success can be a bit circuitous.
Of course this is game development where, if you've launched a game, even if it's not great, you are still considered a success given how difficult it is.
In the end the proof is in the pudding. Launch! That's the only way to prove that it can be done. Anything behind that, all the screen shots, videos, interviews, mean nothing.
Launch!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Is ANYTHING posted in this thread untrue? If so.. simply let me know and if verified I will change it. Instead... as is typical... you complain about the symptom (people "complaining") instead of the root cause (the topics we discuss).
You want Slapshot to stop "complaining"? Say what you mean and do what you say when you say you will do it. It's really that simple.
Maybe instead of putting money in... if people stopped for a second and said... "Hey the timeline you state is impossible with the features you list... and thus the money seems wrong" he would have been forced to re-evaluate and actually come up with a working plan on day 1. Instead people threw money at him and made excuses. THIS is the result of that. Slapshot "complaining" didn't cause this. YOU did.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/soulboundstudios/chronicles-of-elyria-epic-story-mmorpg-with-aging
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/It's funny to me how the CoE project has taken an almost identical trajectory as Pathfinder Online.
1. CEO never made an MMORPG before.
2. Kickstarter raises paltry amount of funds to produce an MMORPG
3. Can't find an investor.
My guess is that CoE will also launch way too early as a way to start the financial recoup process, and it will fall apart and reduce to a tiny group of delusion diehards before ultimately shutting down without having achieved even 50% of the specified feature-set.
If this Caspian guy actually pulls off a success here, it will be a story far more interesting and notable than Star Citizen.
I don't think he will, and deep down I feel bad for the guy. It would seem to me one of those incredibly emotionally draining ventures that causes a lot of upheaval in your life when it goes bad.
The first and main rule is read up on the CV,s and past statements by the main personalities involved in the product, this has saved me time and money on a number of occasions, look at the people not the product to start with.........Looking at you Ashes (not only puts wallet away, he hides wallet and denies ever knowing its existence )
In the case of CoE I chose not to back because of the personalities early on, this has not always worked and made some giant blunders years ago falling for the spin and not the substance of talent, ability and fiscal common sense...................(yeah I backed Mortal Online and LEARNT a lot ).
How, having said that, if the game launches it doesn't really matter. I mean I listen to music/watch movies made by some deplorable people. But their work is good.
So if this is good then sure I'll play it. But at launch.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo