Developer seems frustrated that publishers don't understand CoE's appeal

Slapshot1188 · December 2017

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/23081/a-thought-on-selling-coe-to-potential-publishers
"During last nights multi-hour impromptu Q&A Caspian expressed some frustration in his attempts to market COE to potential publishers. He described publishers that refused to read his 8 page comparison of COE to other MMOs, publishers that wanted loot crates and micro transactions, and publishers simply not understanding the appeal COE has for so many."

Wow... now we know why all the focus is on selling stuff in the store.

Looks like other folks have the same concerns discussed here. They have "pre-sold" the product to their most loyal customers along with tons of "sparks" to last for years. There seems to be a question about the viability of the business model.

Jimmydean · December 2017

CoE bit off way more than they can chew. It's not surprising publishers won't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

Tiamat64 · December 2017

Those publishers just don't understand game development!

Just like all those other haters that said CoE's scope was insane and impossible!!!

/sarcasm

The fact that Caspian seems genuinely confused why publishers don't want to get near his game is... kinda sad. Like seeing a diseased rabid puppy covered in manure wondering why no one wants to play with him. The puppy would be more sympathetic if it wasn't constantly trying to bite everyone and rip out their throats.

Slapshot1188 · December 2017

Tiamat64 said:

Those publishers just don't understand game development!

Just like all those other haters that said CoE's scope was insane and impossible!!!

/sarcasm

The fact that Caspian seems genuinely confused why publishers don't want to get near his game is... kinda sad. Like seeing a diseased rabid puppy covered in manure wondering why no one wants to play with him. The puppy would be more sympathetic if it wasn't constantly trying to bite everyone and rip out their throats.

Reminds me of when Ryan Dancy complained that reviewers didn't understand his Pathfinder Online game.

Luiden · December 2017

"8 page comparison"

Right there is his problem. That needs to turn into a 2 sentence statement and maybe a graph showing ROI over 5 years. Nobody is going to read 8 damn pages.. a 1 pager max should be created. You have to have your pitch down, or you stand no chance.

Slapshot1188 · December 2017

Luiden said:

"8 page comparison"

Right there is his problem. That needs to turn into a 2 sentence statement and maybe a graph showing ROI over 5 years. Nobody is going to read 8 damn pages.. a 1 pager max should be created. You have to have your pitch down, or you stand no chance.

If you ever read anything that Caspien posts or a video of him you should know why. IMHO he genuinely thinks he's the smartest guy in the room and feels compelled to try and show you why. Apparently that tactic is not working with the investors and according to their Discord he seems to be getting frustrated. I also read that he is "softening" his plans for Perma Death to be less painful.

Sovrath · December 2017

Tiamat64 said:

Those publishers just don't understand game development!

Just like all those other haters that said CoE's scope was insane and impossible!!!

/sarcasm

The fact that Caspian seems genuinely confused why publishers don't want to get near his game is... kinda sad. Like seeing a diseased rabid puppy covered in manure wondering why no one wants to play with him. The puppy would be more sympathetic if it wasn't constantly trying to bite everyone and rip out their throats.

Doesn't this speak more to gamers?

I mean, so many gamers are up in arms over x lootboxes, x microtransactions, multiple pages of stuff complaining that they are being nickel and dimed.

Well, this is why they are being nickel and dimed. And i'm not blaming the publishers, it's their money they can do what they want.

But the next time some gamer complains about EA or some other game company they might want to take a step back and realize that it is about making money. Period.

Chronicles of Elyria should have been aware of this but gamers need to realize that game developers might not have the final say if they don't have deep pockets.

Oh, and they then complain about kickstarter.

It's really like they are kids and they don't know how things are paid for.

Dvora · December 2017

In this day and age I'm not sure why they even need publishers any more. Rent some servers and turn them on. Don't sell boxes in stores... or worst case... steam.

Sovrath · December 2017

Dvora said:

In this day and age I'm not sure why they even need publishers any more. Rent some servers and turn them on. Don't sell boxes in stores... or worst case... steam.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's about advertising. Didn't we have a discussion at some point where it was revealed that advertising budgets for these games are huge. I'm thinking the publishers take up that slack but of course they want to make that back and then some.

Kyleran · December 2017

Dvora said:

In this day and age I'm not sure why they even need publishers any more. Rent some servers and turn them on. Don't sell boxes in stores... or worst case... steam.

He does not have near enough cash to keep developing at full speed for the next 2 or 3 years, that's why he's looking for outside funding.

Slapshot1188 · December 2017

Kyleran said:

Dvora said:

In this day and age I'm not sure why they even need publishers any more. Rent some servers and turn them on. Don't sell boxes in stores... or worst case... steam.

He does not have near enough cash to keep developing at full speed for the next 2 or 3 years, that's why he's looking for outside funding.

Thus everything goes back to the original timeline and his gantt charts...

Tiamat64 · December 2017

Sovrath said:

Tiamat64 said:

Those publishers just don't understand game development!

Just like all those other haters that said CoE's scope was insane and impossible!!!

/sarcasm

The fact that Caspian seems genuinely confused why publishers don't want to get near his game is... kinda sad. Like seeing a diseased rabid puppy covered in manure wondering why no one wants to play with him. The puppy would be more sympathetic if it wasn't constantly trying to bite everyone and rip out their throats.

Doesn't this speak more to gamers?

I mean, so many gamers are up in arms over x lootboxes, x microtransactions, multiple pages of stuff complaining that they are being nickel and dimed.

Well, this is why they are being nickel and dimed. And i'm not blaming the publishers, it's their money they can do what they want.

But the next time some gamer complains about EA or some other game company they might want to take a step back and realize that it is about making money. Period.

Chronicles of Elyria should have been aware of this but gamers need to realize that game developers might not have the final say if they don't have deep pockets.

Oh, and they then complain about kickstarter.

It's really like they are kids and they don't know how things are paid for.

I was actually referring more to CoE's insane scope and impossible over-promises rather than its monetization model, myself.

Saying "Chronicles of Elryia will make a huge profit!" means jack squat if the game's plan is too impossible for the game to ever finish development.

And it isn't the type of gameplan that you could improve by throwing money at it. Some people say "It needs more money!" but I honestly don't think money by itself would be enough. It'd need a ton of money, time, AND technology that doesn't exist yet. And no, one can't just say "Oh, if it needs time, then the technology for it will exist by the time it's done!" like I've seen some Star Citizen or CoE fanboys say. That's not how game development works.

It'd also need competent developers and managers. All the time, money, and technology in the world means nothing if the developers and management aren't competent. Caspien didn't even have a development team when he first proposed the project and the people he signed on to it didn't exactly have very good credentials. And Caspien's own competence as a manager is questionable considering his timeline for his impossible promises in the first place. He's also a real jerk, judging by how he snapped at everyone who gave constructive feedback.

CoE needing ridiculous amounts of time AND money AND tech AND talent that it doesn't have doesn't really have anything to do with gamers, I think? Unless I'm missing something here.

kjempff · December 2017

My guess is it is not the appeal they don't get, but that CoE it is a high risk project.
In a genre that has been nothing but unfulfilled promises in the past 10 years, CoE is just another one that claims to be the new revolution of mmo.
Also some members of that team have too much of a fake salesman wibe over them or at the least overconfident of their own abilities which will eventually need to be adjusted with reality.. and results of such adjustments are always unknown.
For a publisher, I think CoE is just too complex and ambitious to make a calculated risk assessment on. It is all on one number and maybe that number pays x36 but most publishers would rather gamble on safer odds games.

Slapshot1188 · December 2017

SedrynTyros said:

So what are you going to talk about when CoE is gone? Relentlessly bashing this game is clearly your favorite hobby. I'm at the point now where I hope it fails just so you'll shut the fuck up about it.

Always adding value to the conversation...

Come join us on the Positive CoE thread. We miss you.

Slapshot1188 · December 2017

SedrynTyros said:

Slapshot1188 said:

SedrynTyros said:

So what are you going to talk about when CoE is gone? Relentlessly bashing this game is clearly your favorite hobby. I'm at the point now where I hope it fails just so you'll shut the fuck up about it.

Always adding value to the conversation...

Come join us on the Positive CoE thread. We miss you.

What discussion? A hit job is not a discussion. And I'm sure you know that. So get on with it. Sorry if I disrupted today's "CoE is a pile of shit and here's why" rant.

Forgiven!

Luiden · December 2017

Slapshot1188 said:

Luiden said:

"8 page comparison"

Right there is his problem. That needs to turn into a 2 sentence statement and maybe a graph showing ROI over 5 years. Nobody is going to read 8 damn pages.. a 1 pager max should be created. You have to have your pitch down, or you stand no chance.

If you ever read anything that Caspien posts or a video of him you should know why. IMHO he genuinely thinks he's the smartest guy in the room and feels compelled to try and show you why. Apparently that tactic is not working with the investors and according to their Discord he seems to be getting frustrated. I also read that he is "softening" his plans for Perma Death to be less painful.

If anything, EQ2 showed the world that players do not want to be punished for death. That's a Gen 1 MMORPG feature and WoW showed the world that just running back to where you were was enough to discourage death.

Kyleran · December 2017

SedrynTyros said:

So what are you going to talk about when CoE is gone? Relentlessly bashing this game is clearly your favorite hobby. I'm at the point now where I hope it fails just so you'll shut the fuck up about it.

Leaving SC, Ashes, Wild West, CU, SotA, Pantheon, and a half a dozen other under funded, half baked MMOs to pile....er comment on.

Jocularity for many years to come...

Tiamat64 · December 2017

SedrynTyros said:

So what are you going to talk about when CoE is gone? Relentlessly bashing this game is clearly your favorite hobby. I'm at the point now where I hope it fails just so you'll shut the fuck up about it.

SC, Ashes, Pantheon, SoTA... aw flark, Kyleran beat me to it.

There's a sucker born every minute and thus there shall always be some silly indie MMORPG project that's so ridiculously mismanaged and crazily overpromised or out of touch you'd think no one would fund it but it gets funding anyways. In part because of people like you who refuse to see the bad thing about obviously bad things and encourage others to do the same. Thus the entertainment never ends.

Dakeru · December 2017

I'm putting my money on SoTA even if he gained some new respect for those people.

Despite that the whole 'We know better than anyone else!' attitude just seems like a familiar course straight towards the next iceberg.

Tiamat64 · December 2017

SedrynTyros said:

Tiamat64 said:

SedrynTyros said:

So what are you going to talk about when CoE is gone? Relentlessly bashing this game is clearly your favorite hobby. I'm at the point now where I hope it fails just so you'll shut the fuck up about it.

SC, Ashes, Pantheon, SoTA... aw flark, Kyleran beat me to it.

There's a sucker born every minute and thus there shall always be some silly indie MMORPG project that's so ridiculously mismanaged and crazily overpromised or out of touch you'd think no one would fund it but it gets funding anyways. In part because of people like you who refuse to see the bad thing about obviously bad things and encourage others to do the same. Thus the entertainment never ends.

Refusing to see the bad thing? No, this is about only seeing the bad thing and it has nothing to do with me.

Have you pledged anything to CoE yet?

Tiamat64 · December 2017

SedrynTyros said:

Tiamat64 said:

SedrynTyros said:

Tiamat64 said:
SC, Ashes, Pantheon, SoTA... aw flark, Kyleran beat me to it.

There's a sucker born every minute and thus there shall always be some silly indie MMORPG project that's so ridiculously mismanaged and crazily overpromised or out of touch you'd think no one would fund it but it gets funding anyways. In part because of people like you who refuse to see the bad thing about obviously bad things and encourage others to do the same. Thus the entertainment never ends.

Refusing to see the bad thing? No, this is about only seeing the bad thing and it has nothing to do with me.

Have you pledged anything to CoE yet?

Yes, but how is that relevant? I pledged towards a game I want to see get made.

Like I said, they get funding anyways, from people like you. Thank you for funding my entertainment! Watching these real train wrecks in action is just so visceral!

Tiamat64 · December 2017

SedrynTyros said:
Yes, people pledge to games they want to see get made. If you find that entertaining ... that's great I guess. But if nobody pledges, the games never get made. If enough people pledge, sometimes they do. This is not hard to understand. And despite what estimation you may have of your own intelligence, you can't predict the future. Some of these games that people consider underdogs may succeed, your infantile circle jerk notwithstanding.

If I could predict the future, that would make these things a lot less entertaining actually. Caspien whining about how no publisher wants to get anywhere near him would have been a heck of a lot less interesting if I predicted it in advance for example. And then there's things like Star Citizen TANKing (there's a pun in there, for those who don't know what's going on with Star Citizen right now) and it's like, the best entertainers in the world couldn't make this stuff up! Nor could I have predicted it, and I'm glad I didn't!

So far up to the plate, we have Shroud of Avatar, Star Citizen, Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria, Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, etc etc.... you say some of them will succeed? Well let's see! Will any of them succeed? Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen! Er, but don't bet on SoTA. I consider that one failed already since it reached launch and proceeded to disappoint pretty much everyone besides like, 3 people. It sure was a hoot in doing so, though. Sales of Lord British's blood, USED TO MAKE ART. They friggin' monetized the death of Garriot's mother! Like I said, entertainers can't make this stuff up!

Tiamat64 · December 2017

SedrynTyros said:

Tiamat64 said:

If I could predict the future, that would make these things a lot less entertaining actually. Caspien being confused why no publisher wants to get anywhere near him would have been a heck of a lot less interesting if I predicted it in advance for example. And then there's things like Star Citizen TANKing (there's a pun in there, for those who don't know what's going on with Star Citizen right now) and it's like, the best entertainers in the world couldn't make this stuff up! Nor could I have predicted it, and I'm glad I didn't!

So far up to the plate, we have Shroud of Avatar, Star Citizen, Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria, Crowfall, Ashes of Creation.... you say some of them will succeed? Well let's see! Will any of them succeed? Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen! (er, but don't bet on SoTA. I consider that one failed already since it reached launch and proceeded to disappoint pretty much everyone besides like, 3 people)

I'm betting that a bunch of people who probably don't possess enough collective creativity to fashion a crossword puzzle will continue to shit on everyone of those projects because they think it's "entertainment". And I am guaranteed to win that bet.

That's nice but I'm not really sure what's the point you're trying to make here now. Neither you winning that bet nor you being right changes anything. You accuse me of thinking I'm so smart but your post right here basically translates to "I'm smarter than all of you!" and NOTHING else, and that's not really relevant to anything

Tiamat64 · December 2017

SedrynTyros said:

Tiamat64 said:

SedrynTyros said:

Tiamat64 said:

If I could predict the future, that would make these things a lot less entertaining actually. Caspien being confused why no publisher wants to get anywhere near him would have been a heck of a lot less interesting if I predicted it in advance for example. And then there's things like Star Citizen TANKing (there's a pun in there, for those who don't know what's going on with Star Citizen right now) and it's like, the best entertainers in the world couldn't make this stuff up! Nor could I have predicted it, and I'm glad I didn't!

So far up to the plate, we have Shroud of Avatar, Star Citizen, Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria, Crowfall, Ashes of Creation.... you say some of them will succeed? Well let's see! Will any of them succeed? Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen! (er, but don't bet on SoTA. I consider that one failed already since it reached launch and proceeded to disappoint pretty much everyone besides like, 3 people)

I'm betting that a bunch of people who probably don't possess enough collective creativity to fashion a crossword puzzle will continue to shit on everyone of those projects because they think it's "entertainment". And I am guaranteed to win that bet.

That's nice but I'm not really sure what's the point you're trying to make here now. Neither you winning that bet nor you being right changes anything. You accuse me of thinking I'm so smart but your post right here basically translates to "I'm smarter than all of you!" and NOTHING else, and that's not really relevant to anything

I think you've wasted enough time on me.

Yea, you're probably right. One post was too much to spend on some random inconsequential individual.

Well, thanks again for funding my entertainment. For what it's worth, the fact that you basically spent an entire post saying nothing but "You're all stupid! I''d win a bet that you're all stupid!" was pretty entertaining too, so thanks for that as well.

*bows*

genaknosc · December 2017

Tiamat64 said:

SedrynTyros said:
Yes, people pledge to games they want to see get made. If you find that entertaining ... that's great I guess. But if nobody pledges, the games never get made. If enough people pledge, sometimes they do. This is not hard to understand. And despite what estimation you may have of your own intelligence, you can't predict the future. Some of these games that people consider underdogs may succeed, your infantile circle jerk notwithstanding.

If I could predict the future, that would make these things a lot less entertaining actually. Caspien whining about how no publisher wants to get anywhere near him would have been a heck of a lot less interesting if I predicted it in advance for example. And then there's things like Star Citizen TANKing (there's a pun in there, for those who don't know what's going on with Star Citizen right now) and it's like, the best entertainers in the world couldn't make this stuff up! Nor could I have predicted it, and I'm glad I didn't!

So far up to the plate, we have Shroud of Avatar, Star Citizen, Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria, Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, etc etc.... you say some of them will succeed? Well let's see! Will any of them succeed? Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen! Er, but don't bet on SoTA. I consider that one failed already since it reached launch and proceeded to disappoint pretty much everyone besides like, 3 people. It sure was a hoot in doing so, though. Sales of Lord British's blood, USED TO MAKE ART. They friggin' monetized the death of Garriot's mother! Like I said, entertainers can't make this stuff up!

Crowfall just this month got a new $6 million cash infusion from outside investors, I'd say it will probably launch.

Tiamat64 · December 2017

genaknosc said:

Tiamat64 said:

SedrynTyros said:
Yes, people pledge to games they want to see get made. If you find that entertaining ... that's great I guess. But if nobody pledges, the games never get made. If enough people pledge, sometimes they do. This is not hard to understand. And despite what estimation you may have of your own intelligence, you can't predict the future. Some of these games that people consider underdogs may succeed, your infantile circle jerk notwithstanding.

If I could predict the future, that would make these things a lot less entertaining actually. Caspien whining about how no publisher wants to get anywhere near him would have been a heck of a lot less interesting if I predicted it in advance for example. And then there's things like Star Citizen TANKing (there's a pun in there, for those who don't know what's going on with Star Citizen right now) and it's like, the best entertainers in the world couldn't make this stuff up! Nor could I have predicted it, and I'm glad I didn't!

So far up to the plate, we have Shroud of Avatar, Star Citizen, Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria, Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, etc etc.... you say some of them will succeed? Well let's see! Will any of them succeed? Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen! Er, but don't bet on SoTA. I consider that one failed already since it reached launch and proceeded to disappoint pretty much everyone besides like, 3 people. It sure was a hoot in doing so, though. Sales of Lord British's blood, USED TO MAKE ART. They friggin' monetized the death of Garriot's mother! Like I said, entertainers can't make this stuff up!

Crowfall just this month got a new $6 million cash infusion from outside investors, I'd say it will probably launch.

6 mill isn't very much by MMORPG standards. That said, Shroud of the Avatar launched too (eh, close enough) yet I don't consider it a success (I do consider it entertainment, though).

Besides, even if Crowfall does launch and somehow is successful, it was still fun to watch anyways. Unlike what Sedryn keeps yapping about, I don't "lose" just because a game "succeeds". Games are about entertainment, so I win as long as I'm entertained.

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Developer seems frustrated that publishers don't understand CoE's appeal

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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Developer seems frustrated that publishers don't understand CoE's appeal

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV