Uhm... Guild wars 2 AND ESO have a marketplace ontop of b2p and paid dlc expansions.
Guild Wars 1 not 2. Also, I said "can" if they had to but don't in the case of ESO or even GW2 because more money.
Guild Wars 1 was not an MMO for starters. And they released full price expansions at a breakneck pace. That kind of pace might be feasible for a couple years, but it is incredibly taxing on developer's work/life balance and becomes less effective as the playerbase dwindles.
Plus, Guild Wars 1 did have microtransactions. Costumes, bonus mission packs, bank space, character slots, AI hero slots based on your characters, and more were sold. Granted there was no cash shop integration into the game that I can remember, but microtransactions did exist.
And I said "can" if they had to just like with every other MMO even WoW but they don't cause of greed and not because they are strapped for cash. If they never added microtransactions their expansions would probably be higher quality than the bare minimum they churn out these days. As a developer why would they spend money to develop content for an expansion when they can just add two mounts or pets to the cash shop and make almost the same amount of money.
The kind of obvious answer is, if that cash shop fluff content is enough to keep its players happy then that is sufficient. If not then they have to develop content that keeps their players interested and spending, on top of anything in the cash shop.
A cash shop requires a lot more overhead. It would be much simpler and cheaper to lock that skin behind some in game loot pinata rent out the chance for $15/mo and be done with it. Smedley has said so time and again that it works like that but it's not how people will pay. They do cash shop because it is a significant piece of what pays for the game.
Notice all games have cash shops but most also offer subscriptions and RMT conversion (money to gems). That's because just one revenue stream isn't sufficient. Most games with just cash shops can't survive long term either. Think about it, ESO has cash shop, box fee, subscription, and loot crates. GW2 has cash shop, box fee, loot crates, and RMT conversion. WoW has cash shop, sub, RMT conversion. FF14 cash shop, tiered sub, box fee. And they all develop their content and time sinks around their specific models.
For the THIRD time, I said "--->CAN<---" if they "had to". Define can: know, understand; to be able to do, make, or accomplish
Smedley lost Sony 60mil with his free to play your way nonsense so whatever he says about ftp shouldn't be given a 2nd thought IMO. "They do cash shop because it is a significant piece of what pays for the game." They do cash shops because it allows them to go whaling cause what company doesn't like making MORE money. That greed is what I'm talking about and not necessary in games.
As it relates to this thread, in-game currency added that can be used for in-game activities only cheapens the experience because then the game becomes whoever spends the most cash wins the game. If you look at all the games recently that have done this like WoW, Albion etc the value of in-game items drops in value because in-game currency becomes like Zimbabwe wheelbarrow money. When tokens in WoW were introduced they cost 20k'ish on my server and now they are $180k. In Albion if you want to just buy everything from the market you just buy gold and convert it to silver and you repeat that for everything you need which just ruins the experience for everyone cause prices get jacked up for the P2W people so how exactly is it good for a game.
Uhm... Guild wars 2 AND ESO have a marketplace ontop of b2p and paid dlc expansions.
Guild Wars 1 not 2. Also, I said "can" if they had to but don't in the case of ESO or even GW2 because more money.
Guild Wars 1 was not an MMO for starters. And they released full price expansions at a breakneck pace. That kind of pace might be feasible for a couple years, but it is incredibly taxing on developer's work/life balance and becomes less effective as the playerbase dwindles.
Plus, Guild Wars 1 did have microtransactions. Costumes, bonus mission packs, bank space, character slots, AI hero slots based on your characters, and more were sold. Granted there was no cash shop integration into the game that I can remember, but microtransactions did exist.
And I said "can" if they had to just like with every other MMO even WoW but they don't cause of greed and not because they are strapped for cash. If they never added microtransactions their expansions would probably be higher quality than the bare minimum they churn out these days. As a developer why would they spend money to develop content for an expansion when they can just add two mounts or pets to the cash shop and make almost the same amount of money.
The kind of obvious answer is, if that cash shop fluff content is enough to keep its players happy then that is sufficient. If not then they have to develop content that keeps their players interested and spending, on top of anything in the cash shop.
A cash shop requires a lot more overhead. It would be much simpler and cheaper to lock that skin behind some in game loot pinata rent out the chance for $15/mo and be done with it. Smedley has said so time and again that it works like that but it's not how people will pay. They do cash shop because it is a significant piece of what pays for the game.
Notice all games have cash shops but most also offer subscriptions and RMT conversion (money to gems). That's because just one revenue stream isn't sufficient. Most games with just cash shops can't survive long term either. Think about it, ESO has cash shop, box fee, subscription, and loot crates. GW2 has cash shop, box fee, loot crates, and RMT conversion. WoW has cash shop, sub, RMT conversion. FF14 cash shop, tiered sub, box fee. And they all develop their content and time sinks around their specific models.
As it relates to this thread, in-game currency added that can be used for in-game activities only cheapens the experience because then the game becomes whoever spends the most cash wins the game.
If you look at all the games recently that have done this like WoW, Albion etc the value of in-game items drops in value because in-game currency becomes like Zimbabwe wheelbarrow money.
When tokens in WoW were introduced they cost 20k'ish on my server and now they are $180k. In Albion if you want to just buy everything from the market you just buy gold and convert it to silver and you repeat that for everything you need which just ruins the experience for everyone cause prices get jacked up for the P2W people so how exactly is it good for a game.
Does Crowfall plan to have a cash to in game currency system like WoW and Albion have?
Uhm... Guild wars 2 AND ESO have a marketplace ontop of b2p and paid dlc expansions.
Guild Wars 1 not 2. Also, I said "can" if they had to but don't in the case of ESO or even GW2 because more money.
Guild Wars 1 was not an MMO for starters. And they released full price expansions at a breakneck pace. That kind of pace might be feasible for a couple years, but it is incredibly taxing on developer's work/life balance and becomes less effective as the playerbase dwindles.
Plus, Guild Wars 1 did have microtransactions. Costumes, bonus mission packs, bank space, character slots, AI hero slots based on your characters, and more were sold. Granted there was no cash shop integration into the game that I can remember, but microtransactions did exist.
And I said "can" if they had to just like with every other MMO even WoW but they don't cause of greed and not because they are strapped for cash. If they never added microtransactions their expansions would probably be higher quality than the bare minimum they churn out these days. As a developer why would they spend money to develop content for an expansion when they can just add two mounts or pets to the cash shop and make almost the same amount of money.
The kind of obvious answer is, if that cash shop fluff content is enough to keep its players happy then that is sufficient. If not then they have to develop content that keeps their players interested and spending, on top of anything in the cash shop.
A cash shop requires a lot more overhead. It would be much simpler and cheaper to lock that skin behind some in game loot pinata rent out the chance for $15/mo and be done with it. Smedley has said so time and again that it works like that but it's not how people will pay. They do cash shop because it is a significant piece of what pays for the game.
Notice all games have cash shops but most also offer subscriptions and RMT conversion (money to gems). That's because just one revenue stream isn't sufficient. Most games with just cash shops can't survive long term either. Think about it, ESO has cash shop, box fee, subscription, and loot crates. GW2 has cash shop, box fee, loot crates, and RMT conversion. WoW has cash shop, sub, RMT conversion. FF14 cash shop, tiered sub, box fee. And they all develop their content and time sinks around their specific models.
For the THIRD time, I said "--->CAN<---" if they "had to". Define can: know, understand; to be able to do, make, or accomplish
Smedley lost Sony 60mil with his free to play your way nonsense so whatever he says about ftp shouldn't be given a 2nd thought IMO. "They do cash shop because it is a significant piece of what pays for the game." They do cash shops because it allows them to go whaling cause what company doesn't like making MORE money. That greed is what I'm talking about and not necessary in games.
As it relates to this thread, in-game currency added that can be used for in-game activities only cheapens the experience because then the game becomes whoever spends the most cash wins the game. If you look at all the games recently that have done this like WoW, Albion etc the value of in-game items drops in value because in-game currency becomes like Zimbabwe wheelbarrow money. When tokens in WoW were introduced they cost 20k'ish on my server and now they are $180k. In Albion if you want to just buy everything from the market you just buy gold and convert it to silver and you repeat that for everything you need which just ruins the experience for everyone cause prices get jacked up for the P2W people so how exactly is it good for a game.
Guild Wars 2 currency has been relatively stable for approximately the past 2 years, and gem store currency exchange is one of the largest stabilizing factors. Devaluing of ingame currency is the result of inflation caused by a lack of gold sinks, not the ability to "buy money." Currency conversion systems only trade existing gold, rather than creating gold, and a good conversion system also taxes that gold.
Frankly, your argument is purely ideological. You do not understand the business realities of a genre with incredibly high upkeep. You expect the same model as a single player game, and you have allowed yourself to believe that such a thing is feasible.
Uhm... Guild wars 2 AND ESO have a marketplace ontop of b2p and paid dlc expansions.
Guild Wars 1 not 2. Also, I said "can" if they had to but don't in the case of ESO or even GW2 because more money.
Guild Wars 1 was not an MMO for starters. And they released full price expansions at a breakneck pace. That kind of pace might be feasible for a couple years, but it is incredibly taxing on developer's work/life balance and becomes less effective as the playerbase dwindles.
Plus, Guild Wars 1 did have microtransactions. Costumes, bonus mission packs, bank space, character slots, AI hero slots based on your characters, and more were sold. Granted there was no cash shop integration into the game that I can remember, but microtransactions did exist.
And I said "can" if they had to just like with every other MMO even WoW but they don't cause of greed and not because they are strapped for cash. If they never added microtransactions their expansions would probably be higher quality than the bare minimum they churn out these days. As a developer why would they spend money to develop content for an expansion when they can just add two mounts or pets to the cash shop and make almost the same amount of money.
The kind of obvious answer is, if that cash shop fluff content is enough to keep its players happy then that is sufficient. If not then they have to develop content that keeps their players interested and spending, on top of anything in the cash shop.
A cash shop requires a lot more overhead. It would be much simpler and cheaper to lock that skin behind some in game loot pinata rent out the chance for $15/mo and be done with it. Smedley has said so time and again that it works like that but it's not how people will pay. They do cash shop because it is a significant piece of what pays for the game.
Notice all games have cash shops but most also offer subscriptions and RMT conversion (money to gems). That's because just one revenue stream isn't sufficient. Most games with just cash shops can't survive long term either. Think about it, ESO has cash shop, box fee, subscription, and loot crates. GW2 has cash shop, box fee, loot crates, and RMT conversion. WoW has cash shop, sub, RMT conversion. FF14 cash shop, tiered sub, box fee. And they all develop their content and time sinks around their specific models.
For the THIRD time, I said "--->CAN<---" if they "had to". Define can: know, understand; to be able to do, make, or accomplish
Smedley lost Sony 60mil with his free to play your way nonsense so whatever he says about ftp shouldn't be given a 2nd thought IMO. "They do cash shop because it is a significant piece of what pays for the game." They do cash shops because it allows them to go whaling cause what company doesn't like making MORE money. That greed is what I'm talking about and not necessary in games.
As it relates to this thread, in-game currency added that can be used for in-game activities only cheapens the experience because then the game becomes whoever spends the most cash wins the game. If you look at all the games recently that have done this like WoW, Albion etc the value of in-game items drops in value because in-game currency becomes like Zimbabwe wheelbarrow money. When tokens in WoW were introduced they cost 20k'ish on my server and now they are $180k. In Albion if you want to just buy everything from the market you just buy gold and convert it to silver and you repeat that for everything you need which just ruins the experience for everyone cause prices get jacked up for the P2W people so how exactly is it good for a game.
Guild Wars 2 currency has been relatively stable for approximately the past 2 years, and gem store currency exchange is one of the largest stabilizing factors. Devaluing of ingame currency is the result of inflation caused by a lack of gold sinks, not the ability to "buy money." Currency conversion systems only trade existing gold, rather than creating gold, and a good conversion system also taxes that gold.
Frankly, your argument is purely ideological. You do not understand the business realities of a genre with incredibly high upkeep. You expect the same model as a single player game, and you have allowed yourself to believe that such a thing is feasible.
It isn't fiction that every game that creates a currency that can be traded for in-game currency can be manipulated by the game company and usually is because do you really think a game company will leave their economy up to chance?. Do you remember the argument that was thrown around here when WoW tokens came out? "They are only 20k" "If you can't earn 20k then you are a ____" now they are 180k so where are those people now? They aren't here admitting they were wrong just like you didn't admit that when you said Guild Wars wasn't an MMO you were wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars. In Trove they introduced credit packs that allow you to sell store currency for in-game currency to players and now you see people selling 20+ credit pouches, 10 credit pouches etc at an ever changing rate that is determined 100% by the game company.
If you are using GW2 as a good example of a 2nd currency then read that link I posted above. The only people it's "relatively stable" for is Arenanet making thousands upon thousands of dollars off afluent weak willed players but seeing as you guys in this thread are defending second currency so hard I guess you all agree with that type of business practice.
In the specific case of this game if they kept the 2nd currency soley as a currency to be used outside the game(like ESO, praise be to ESO) then I see no problem but seeing as they said it will be used for in-game activities throws up red flags because most of those 2nd currencies that started off like the innocent 20k WoW token snowballed into something much worse for players as time went on.
Uhm... Guild wars 2 AND ESO have a marketplace ontop of b2p and paid dlc expansions.
Guild Wars 1 not 2. Also, I said "can" if they had to but don't in the case of ESO or even GW2 because more money.
Guild Wars 1 was not an MMO for starters. And they released full price expansions at a breakneck pace. That kind of pace might be feasible for a couple years, but it is incredibly taxing on developer's work/life balance and becomes less effective as the playerbase dwindles.
Plus, Guild Wars 1 did have microtransactions. Costumes, bonus mission packs, bank space, character slots, AI hero slots based on your characters, and more were sold. Granted there was no cash shop integration into the game that I can remember, but microtransactions did exist.
And I said "can" if they had to just like with every other MMO even WoW but they don't cause of greed and not because they are strapped for cash. If they never added microtransactions their expansions would probably be higher quality than the bare minimum they churn out these days. As a developer why would they spend money to develop content for an expansion when they can just add two mounts or pets to the cash shop and make almost the same amount of money.
The kind of obvious answer is, if that cash shop fluff content is enough to keep its players happy then that is sufficient. If not then they have to develop content that keeps their players interested and spending, on top of anything in the cash shop.
A cash shop requires a lot more overhead. It would be much simpler and cheaper to lock that skin behind some in game loot pinata rent out the chance for $15/mo and be done with it. Smedley has said so time and again that it works like that but it's not how people will pay. They do cash shop because it is a significant piece of what pays for the game.
Notice all games have cash shops but most also offer subscriptions and RMT conversion (money to gems). That's because just one revenue stream isn't sufficient. Most games with just cash shops can't survive long term either. Think about it, ESO has cash shop, box fee, subscription, and loot crates. GW2 has cash shop, box fee, loot crates, and RMT conversion. WoW has cash shop, sub, RMT conversion. FF14 cash shop, tiered sub, box fee. And they all develop their content and time sinks around their specific models.
For the THIRD time, I said "--->CAN<---" if they "had to". Define can: know, understand; to be able to do, make, or accomplish
Smedley lost Sony 60mil with his free to play your way nonsense so whatever he says about ftp shouldn't be given a 2nd thought IMO. "They do cash shop because it is a significant piece of what pays for the game." They do cash shops because it allows them to go whaling cause what company doesn't like making MORE money. That greed is what I'm talking about and not necessary in games.
As it relates to this thread, in-game currency added that can be used for in-game activities only cheapens the experience because then the game becomes whoever spends the most cash wins the game. If you look at all the games recently that have done this like WoW, Albion etc the value of in-game items drops in value because in-game currency becomes like Zimbabwe wheelbarrow money. When tokens in WoW were introduced they cost 20k'ish on my server and now they are $180k. In Albion if you want to just buy everything from the market you just buy gold and convert it to silver and you repeat that for everything you need which just ruins the experience for everyone cause prices get jacked up for the P2W people so how exactly is it good for a game.
Guild Wars 2 currency has been relatively stable for approximately the past 2 years, and gem store currency exchange is one of the largest stabilizing factors. Devaluing of ingame currency is the result of inflation caused by a lack of gold sinks, not the ability to "buy money." Currency conversion systems only trade existing gold, rather than creating gold, and a good conversion system also taxes that gold.
Frankly, your argument is purely ideological. You do not understand the business realities of a genre with incredibly high upkeep. You expect the same model as a single player game, and you have allowed yourself to believe that such a thing is feasible.
In the specific case of this game if they kept the 2nd currency soley as a currency to be used outside the game(like ESO, praise be to ESO) then I see no problem but seeing as they said it will be used for in-game activities throws up red flags because most of those 2nd currencies that started off like the innocent 20k WoW token snowballed into something much worse for players as time went on.
From what I have read it seems more like what ESO has been doing, but the ability to trade subscription time for gold/in game items is where I see the potential for p2w. See point 9 in link below.
Uhm... Guild wars 2 AND ESO have a marketplace ontop of b2p and paid dlc expansions.
Guild Wars 1 not 2. Also, I said "can" if they had to but don't in the case of ESO or even GW2 because more money.
Guild Wars 1 was not an MMO for starters. And they released full price expansions at a breakneck pace. That kind of pace might be feasible for a couple years, but it is incredibly taxing on developer's work/life balance and becomes less effective as the playerbase dwindles.
Plus, Guild Wars 1 did have microtransactions. Costumes, bonus mission packs, bank space, character slots, AI hero slots based on your characters, and more were sold. Granted there was no cash shop integration into the game that I can remember, but microtransactions did exist.
And I said "can" if they had to just like with every other MMO even WoW but they don't cause of greed and not because they are strapped for cash. If they never added microtransactions their expansions would probably be higher quality than the bare minimum they churn out these days. As a developer why would they spend money to develop content for an expansion when they can just add two mounts or pets to the cash shop and make almost the same amount of money.
The kind of obvious answer is, if that cash shop fluff content is enough to keep its players happy then that is sufficient. If not then they have to develop content that keeps their players interested and spending, on top of anything in the cash shop.
A cash shop requires a lot more overhead. It would be much simpler and cheaper to lock that skin behind some in game loot pinata rent out the chance for $15/mo and be done with it. Smedley has said so time and again that it works like that but it's not how people will pay. They do cash shop because it is a significant piece of what pays for the game.
Notice all games have cash shops but most also offer subscriptions and RMT conversion (money to gems). That's because just one revenue stream isn't sufficient. Most games with just cash shops can't survive long term either. Think about it, ESO has cash shop, box fee, subscription, and loot crates. GW2 has cash shop, box fee, loot crates, and RMT conversion. WoW has cash shop, sub, RMT conversion. FF14 cash shop, tiered sub, box fee. And they all develop their content and time sinks around their specific models.
For the THIRD time, I said "--->CAN<---" if they "had to". Define can: know, understand; to be able to do, make, or accomplish
Smedley lost Sony 60mil with his free to play your way nonsense so whatever he says about ftp shouldn't be given a 2nd thought IMO. "They do cash shop because it is a significant piece of what pays for the game." They do cash shops because it allows them to go whaling cause what company doesn't like making MORE money. That greed is what I'm talking about and not necessary in games.
As it relates to this thread, in-game currency added that can be used for in-game activities only cheapens the experience because then the game becomes whoever spends the most cash wins the game. If you look at all the games recently that have done this like WoW, Albion etc the value of in-game items drops in value because in-game currency becomes like Zimbabwe wheelbarrow money. When tokens in WoW were introduced they cost 20k'ish on my server and now they are $180k. In Albion if you want to just buy everything from the market you just buy gold and convert it to silver and you repeat that for everything you need which just ruins the experience for everyone cause prices get jacked up for the P2W people so how exactly is it good for a game.
Guild Wars 2 currency has been relatively stable for approximately the past 2 years, and gem store currency exchange is one of the largest stabilizing factors. Devaluing of ingame currency is the result of inflation caused by a lack of gold sinks, not the ability to "buy money." Currency conversion systems only trade existing gold, rather than creating gold, and a good conversion system also taxes that gold.
Frankly, your argument is purely ideological. You do not understand the business realities of a genre with incredibly high upkeep. You expect the same model as a single player game, and you have allowed yourself to believe that such a thing is feasible.
In the specific case of this game if they kept the 2nd currency soley as a currency to be used outside the game(like ESO, praise be to ESO) then I see no problem but seeing as they said it will be used for in-game activities throws up red flags because most of those 2nd currencies that started off like the innocent 20k WoW token snowballed into something much worse for players as time went on.
From what I have read it seems more like what ESO has been doing, but the ability to trade subscription time for gold/in game items is where I see the potential for p2w. See point 9 in link below.
#5 contradicts #4 cause it obviously gives an advantage and does impact gameplay.
The whole being able to trade VIP membership to other players is a mirror of Trove's patron so it basically confirms all of my fears. It doesn't completely bar you from the game like WoW's token but like the token will still be the main goal players will grind for month after month.
"completely optional and will not affect your ability to play and enjoy the game" yet you will be progressing slower if you don't have VIP so how exactly does that not "impact gameplay" or "affect your ability to play and enjoy the game". I'm sure everyone enjoys progressing slower than others because they did not pay extra money for a game they already bought.
The pricing page didn't mention how the 2nd currency will be able to be used in-game which is the part I'm mostly concerned about.
Guild Wars 2 currency has been relatively stable for approximately the past 2 years, and gem store currency exchange is one of the largest stabilizing factors. Devaluing of ingame currency is the result of inflation caused by a lack of gold sinks, not the ability to "buy money." Currency conversion systems only trade existing gold, rather than creating gold, and a good conversion system also taxes that gold.
Frankly, your argument is purely ideological. You do not understand the business realities of a genre with incredibly high upkeep. You expect the same model as a single player game, and you have allowed yourself to believe that such a thing is feasible.
It isn't fiction that every game that creates a currency that can be traded for in-game currency can be manipulated by the game company and usually is because do you really think a game company will leave their economy up to chance?. Do you remember the argument that was thrown around here when WoW tokens came out? "They are only 20k" "If you can't earn 20k then you are a ____" now they are 180k so where are those people now? They aren't here admitting they were wrong just like you didn't admit that when you said Guild Wars wasn't an MMO you were wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars. In Trove they introduced credit packs that allow you to sell store currency for in-game currency to players and now you see people selling 20+ credit pouches, 10 credit pouches etc at an ever changing rate that is determined 100% by the game company.
If you are using GW2 as a good example of a 2nd currency then read that link I posted above. The only people it's "relatively stable" for is Arenanet making thousands upon thousands of dollars off afluent weak willed players but seeing as you guys in this thread are defending second currency so hard I guess you all agree with that type of business practice.
In the specific case of this game if they kept the 2nd currency soley as a currency to be used outside the game(like ESO, praise be to ESO) then I see no problem but seeing as they said it will be used for in-game activities throws up red flags because most of those 2nd currencies that started off like the innocent 20k WoW token snowballed into something much worse for players as time went on.
You seem to be of the opinion that $5000 on Guild Wars 2 gems is relevant. It isn't. What is the guy winning by converting such a large amount of currency? Max level characters can be obtained within days. Endgame exotic gear (which is perfectly acceptable for almost all content, by the way) can be afforded the instant you hit level 80. Full best in stat ascended gear can be obtained within a month of starting the game. PvP puts everyone on a level playing field instantaneously. There is no significant performance advantage someone can obtain by opening their wallet in Guild Wars 2.
Gems to gold conversion is only a bad thing if the whale gains a significant performance advantage by whipping out their credit card. In other words, currency conversion is not a problem in and of itself. With the right business model, which Guild Wars 2 has, currency conversion contributes to a fair business model by allowing every player to obtain even the most prestigious cash shop items without spending money. I like that feature. I appreciate that feature. That feature is part of why I respect Guild Wars 2 as a game.
Also, you're being asinine by saying that Guild Wars 2's currency is only relatively stable for the company end. By your reasoning, the entire ingame economy would be undermined by currency conversion, but prices remain relatively consistent based on natural ingame demand. Here's a few examples. Ectos (the material iconic and important enough to be a currency in the original game) maintain a 25-35 silver price range at all times. Mithril and elder wood prices have remained consistent ever since precursor crafting was introduced. Legendary prices are relatively consistent. The trading post has been a generally friendly market for both buyers and sellers throughout the game's lifespan and has maintained more stability than a vast majority of game economies.
Meanwhile, gem prices have maintained very typical trends for at least two years now. During normal demand periods, gems maintain a price of approximately 90-105 gold per 400 gems. During new cash shop releases, this spikes slightly into the 110-115 gold range. During periods of high demand (such as week-long holiday sale events), that can raise to about 120-130. None of these numbers are unexpected, and none stand out as manipulative on the company's part. Gem price fluctuations are pretty predictable and tend to line up perfectly with community demand - as one would expect in a player driven economy. Is it possible that Arenanet has someone standing by, manipulating the prices slightly every few minutes and spiking them up during times when they would naturally spike in price anyway? Possibly. You know what is a hell of a lot more likely than paying employees to sit there all day and actively manipulate prices? Allowing demand for new gem store items and sales to predictably create those prices for them.
Moreover, I was 100% correct when I said that Guild Wars 1 is not an MMO. Arenanet doesn't even refer to it as one. They explicitly, in fact, deny the label. And rightly so. A 4-8 player group cap for all content is far from an MMO.
There is an actual source. The officially recognized Guild Wars Wiki. Not Wikipedia. And what does it say?
"Guild Wars is a CORPG, or Competitive/Cooperative Online Role Playing Game developed for Windows by ArenaNet and published by NCsoft."
That's right, it's a CORPG. The same genre that is now represented by Divinity Original Sin. Quality instanced small group RPG action without the baggage of a full MMORPG.
Guild Wars 2 currency has been relatively stable for approximately the past 2 years, and gem store currency exchange is one of the largest stabilizing factors. Devaluing of ingame currency is the result of inflation caused by a lack of gold sinks, not the ability to "buy money." Currency conversion systems only trade existing gold, rather than creating gold, and a good conversion system also taxes that gold.
Frankly, your argument is purely ideological. You do not understand the business realities of a genre with incredibly high upkeep. You expect the same model as a single player game, and you have allowed yourself to believe that such a thing is feasible.
It isn't fiction that every game that creates a currency that can be traded for in-game currency can be manipulated by the game company and usually is because do you really think a game company will leave their economy up to chance?. Do you remember the argument that was thrown around here when WoW tokens came out? "They are only 20k" "If you can't earn 20k then you are a ____" now they are 180k so where are those people now? They aren't here admitting they were wrong just like you didn't admit that when you said Guild Wars wasn't an MMO you were wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars. In Trove they introduced credit packs that allow you to sell store currency for in-game currency to players and now you see people selling 20+ credit pouches, 10 credit pouches etc at an ever changing rate that is determined 100% by the game company.
If you are using GW2 as a good example of a 2nd currency then read that link I posted above. The only people it's "relatively stable" for is Arenanet making thousands upon thousands of dollars off afluent weak willed players but seeing as you guys in this thread are defending second currency so hard I guess you all agree with that type of business practice.
In the specific case of this game if they kept the 2nd currency soley as a currency to be used outside the game(like ESO, praise be to ESO) then I see no problem but seeing as they said it will be used for in-game activities throws up red flags because most of those 2nd currencies that started off like the innocent 20k WoW token snowballed into something much worse for players as time went on.
You seem to be of the opinion that $5000 on Guild Wars 2 gems is relevant. It isn't. What is the guy winning by converting such a large amount of currency? Max level characters can be obtained within days. Endgame exotic gear (which is perfectly acceptable for almost all content, by the way) can be afforded the instant you hit level 80. Full best in stat ascended gear can be obtained within a month of starting the game. PvP puts everyone on a level playing field instantaneously. There is no significant performance advantage someone can obtain by opening their wallet in Guild Wars 2.
Gems to gold conversion is only a bad thing if the whale gains a significant performance advantage by whipping out their credit card. In other words, currency conversion is not a problem in and of itself. With the right business model, which Guild Wars 2 has, currency conversion contributes to a fair business model by allowing every player to obtain even the most prestigious cash shop items without spending money. I like that feature. I appreciate that feature. That feature is part of why I respect Guild Wars 2 as a game.
Also, you're being asinine by saying that Guild Wars 2's currency is only relatively stable for the company end. By your reasoning, the entire ingame economy would be undermined by currency conversion, but prices remain relatively consistent based on natural ingame demand. Here's a few examples. Ectos (the material iconic and important enough to be a currency in the original game) maintain a 25-35 silver price range at all times. Mithril and elder wood prices have remained consistent ever since precursor crafting was introduced. Legendary prices are relatively consistent. The trading post has been a generally friendly market for both buyers and sellers throughout the game's lifespan and has maintained more stability than a vast majority of game economies.
Meanwhile, gem prices have maintained very typical trends for at least two years now. During normal demand periods, gems maintain a price of approximately 90-105 gold per 400 gems. During new cash shop releases, this spikes slightly into the 110-115 gold range. During periods of high demand (such as week-long holiday sale events), that can raise to about 120-130. None of these numbers are unexpected, and none stand out as manipulative on the company's part. Gem price fluctuations are pretty predictable and tend to line up perfectly with community demand - as one would expect in a player driven economy. Is it possible that Arenanet has someone standing by, manipulating the prices slightly every few minutes and spiking them up during times when they would naturally spike in price anyway? Possibly. You know what is a hell of a lot more likely than paying employees to sit there all day and actively manipulate prices? Allowing demand for new gem store items and sales to predictably create those prices for them.
Moreover, I was 100% correct when I said that Guild Wars 1 is not an MMO. Arenanet doesn't even refer to it as one. They explicitly, in fact, deny the label. And rightly so. A 4-8 player group cap for all content is far from an MMO.
There is an actual source. The officially recognized Guild Wars Wiki. Not Wikipedia. And what does it say?
"Guild Wars is a CORPG, or Competitive/Cooperative Online Role Playing Game developed for Windows by ArenaNet and published by NCsoft."
That's right, it's a CORPG. The same genre that is now represented by Divinity Original Sin. Quality instanced small group RPG action without the baggage of a full MMORPG.
It was changed there and possibly here but originally was marketed as an MMO and even won "MMO awards" that are conveniently no longer listed on the Guild Wars site like they were for many years.
In the description from this site "the game is an instanced MMOG"
Along with countless other MMO sites that have it listed as an MMO along with Wikipedia.
So yes you are right that NOW the label was changed to CORPG but that wasn't the label originally. If you don't believe me look at the reviews on amazon and you find only one that mentions CORPG. Also be sure to check out the description "From the manufacturer" that mentions MMORPG and no where CORPG https://www.amazon.com/Guild-Wars-Game-Year-PC/dp/B0002BJQDY
Also, in Divinity you can be around other players in hubs? or pvp in groups? isn't it just a single player game with co-op option?
Wrong move. Hard pass. B2P + semi-regular DLC releases should be all that's needed to make a game profitable. If it doesn't, than maybe the game isn't worth playing in the first place.
What MMO has ever functioned on a box price and expansions alone? The breakneck pace of high price dlc required for such an undertaking is unsustainable and completely unrealistic in the MMO space.
A few CAN I'm sure like Guild wars? ESO? Some Steam MMO's fuction soley on BTP even.
Why did this game not go that route with BTP, DLC + optional sub? cause they are whaling plain and simple.
Has there been any extra content announced for this game similar to DLC or expansions that would justify an ongoing flow of whale funds? So far all I've seen is the base game that they are trying to get ready for the public.
The notion that MMO's after release costs millions to maintain is an illusion and anyone involved in the industry knows this but aren't saying because that'll curb investment into new projects.
Uhm... Guild wars 2 AND ESO have a marketplace ontop of b2p and paid dlc expansions.
Guild Wars 1 not 2. Also, I said "can" if they had to but don't in the case of ESO or even GW2 because more money.
Guild Wars 1... has a cash shop. I own everything in it. All those costumes, Hero Mercenaries, skill unlocks (yes, paying to unlock all skills has been in since shortly after its release), etc.
In addition, it is not an MMO. It's a town lobby and uses the player's connection to make instances. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars (Official Wiki ran by Anet and not the random internet that has no connection to them; there's even a link to this on their main website www.guildwars.com)
Also, splintering the community in a PvP game with DLCs that separate people sounds like an INCREDIBLY bad idea (and what can they do to not splinter it? Make cosmetic DLCs? That's still a microtransaction). You need to think about context and actual facts before suggesting these things (such as saying -- as I read it at least -- that GW1 is a MMO and doesn't have a shop).
Crowfall is B2P + Optional Sub + Cosmetic Shop at the moment. With them being required to move to the whole "crown" system due to European Laws. This sort of misunderstanding also occurs when people get upset when a game has 1 USD = 1 Euro in their exchange system. Due to VAT, the devs / publishers are actually making less per European player than American player at that point as they are required by law (from what I read) to include VAT in their purchase and not just tack it on afterwards. They're actually eating a loss at that point to make it look more fair, as opposed to just putting in (as an example) $1 = 100 Units / $1.18 Euros = 100 Units.
Post edited by Yaevindusk on
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Wrong move. Hard pass. B2P + semi-regular DLC releases should be all that's needed to make a game profitable. If it doesn't, than maybe the game isn't worth playing in the first place.
What MMO has ever functioned on a box price and expansions alone? The breakneck pace of high price dlc required for such an undertaking is unsustainable and completely unrealistic in the MMO space.
A few CAN I'm sure like Guild wars? ESO? Some Steam MMO's fuction soley on BTP even.
Why did this game not go that route with BTP, DLC + optional sub? cause they are whaling plain and simple.
Has there been any extra content announced for this game similar to DLC or expansions that would justify an ongoing flow of whale funds? So far all I've seen is the base game that they are trying to get ready for the public.
The notion that MMO's after release costs millions to maintain is an illusion and anyone involved in the industry knows this but aren't saying because that'll curb investment into new projects.
Uhm... Guild wars 2 AND ESO have a marketplace ontop of b2p and paid dlc expansions.
Guild Wars 1 not 2. Also, I said "can" if they had to but don't in the case of ESO or even GW2 because more money.
Guild Wars 1 was not an MMO for starters. And they released full price expansions at a breakneck pace. That kind of pace might be feasible for a couple years, but it is incredibly taxing on developer's work/life balance and becomes less effective as the playerbase dwindles.
Plus, Guild Wars 1 did have microtransactions. Costumes, bonus mission packs, bank space, character slots, AI hero slots based on your characters, and more were sold. Granted there was no cash shop integration into the game that I can remember, but microtransactions did exist.
And I said "can" if they had to just like with every other MMO even WoW but they don't cause of greed and not because they are strapped for cash. If they never added microtransactions their expansions would probably be higher quality than the bare minimum they churn out these days. As a developer why would they spend money to develop content for an expansion when they can just add two mounts or pets to the cash shop and make almost the same amount of money.
Posted so it has it's own number to reference instead of quoting longer posts people will have to go through:
Official Wiki run by ANet itself (and accessible from in game)
Guild Wars is a CORPG, or Competitive/Cooperative Online Role Playing Game developed for Windows by ArenaNet and published by NCsoft. The first campaign of Guild Wars, Guild Wars Prophecies
was released on April 28, 2005. The different genre was chosen (as
opposed to the "Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) RPG") due to the
perceived differences between the game and other MMOs: the focus on Player versus Player (PvP) rather than Player versus Environment (PvE) play made it almost a unique case at the time, players received their own instanced copy of explorable zones and parties
were limited to 8 players each, a tiny number compared to the massive
caps of other games, which often allowed for up to 64 players in a
single party (and unlimited players in non-instanced zones, which were
the norm).
----------------------------------------------
Being a player from their beta tests, the Dev teams specifically said that it was not a MMO. To ever classify it as an MMO was just pure misinformation and a lack of understanding of what the game was. It is of the similar ilk to Diablo II in that it has a lobby area and then uses the player's connection to create instances where a party of 8 people can join a game. Indeed, there was even a time when it showed the IP of the person you were connecting to. We may as well call Mario a MMORPG because it has millions of people playing it. To be more realistic, we should call the previous example of Diablo II a MMO as it has the exact same premise.
One of the selling points of GW2 was it being an "Actual MMO" with a "Persistent World". Legitimate zones run by their servers, that they could close if not enough people were in them. Looking at the box of the original copy, it even denotes itself as ANET describes it to be on their site for our viewing pleasure.
Post edited by Yaevindusk on
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
TL;DR - they're good devs and deserve all our money.
I've been keeping an eye on Crowfall since the Kickstarter three years ago. I've watched every single YouTube video update and read every article, so I'm very much a fanboy but at least I'm informed. The devs aren't just some upstarts with lofty dreams and promises built on nothing. They are hardened veterans who are very much the old school gamers from the demographic they're building the game for. They know how to make the game, they know very well what their technical and financial limitations are, and in my eyes they are keeping their word to the T. Only the impatient are complaining about release time.
Every third party news site passing along their updates seems to elicit this knee jerk response from children without perspective. These guys are making a new type of MMO on a budget, and in a reasonable amount of time considering the target scope and quality level. They are directly avoiding the bland WoW formula without flying into the sun like Darkfall.
At this point, the game is fluid, concise, and mostly functional near the end of pre-alpha. The devs are smart, funny, cool and absolutely hate FTP and PTW. MTX isn't inherently evil if approached legitimately for cosmetics or DLC.
The game isn't done yet, and they have to pay the bills. They do not have 50 million just laying around to fund another WoW or Everquest clone. I hope in two years, the game is very successful and popular, then all the naysayers are eating their words with a tall glass of STFU and a seasoned side of I Told You So.
Been following the game since Kickstarter and did all my research prior to donating. To date I've only helped fund a handful of games after looking into the public backgrounds of those that headed the project -- mainly to see if they were who they claimed they were. To date, all of the projects I've funded were great successes and released games that I played at least twice. These include Shadowrun, Divinity: Original Sin, Divinity: Original Sin 2, Crowfall, Grimdawn, Etc.
They have treated me well over the years as I perused their sites and contacted their support, often getting a response from e-mail within minutes and seeing a lot of interaction on their forum sites. They gave me quite a bit of deals over the years, free stuff, etc. The biggest treat being able to trade in kickstarter items that I didn't want for credit shortly after the funding campaign was over. This is in addition to being the first company to offer actual stock / shares in the company under new title regulations. As such, I receive monthly investor reports and in depth knowledge.
The thing is, I absolutely hate PvP games. It has been my belief that they aren't popular enough to survive in the market -- or at least history has shown this. Many say that it's just because 99% of those games were flawed in some way. Though despite all of this, what I saw in my research -- and the contact I've had with the company -- led me not only to donate through kickstarter, but also invest in the company. They're good people that have treated their early adopters well. Trying to make as many things as possible as fair as possible -- and if they change anything, giving a promise that they will replace it with something of equal worth (though exclaim that most likely that translates into a much bigger return for us -- and I've seen that first hand with some reimbursements that vastly exceeded my expectations as a whole).
As a whole they have built up an incredible amount of good will from those that have actually be paying attention to them and participating in the community.
Some recent criticism and reservations I have are as followed:
I don't like how they're rewarding big guilds by giving them free money for each member they have. This seems odd to say, as they're giving free money, but as a person who likes to join small guilds, I think this is just making the "rich richer" as a whole. It can only be used on cosmetic stuff, but still. It's also incentives for my own friends to join elsewhere, or for zergs to form because hey, free money.
Their reasoning for this seems to be the Kickstarter and package promises of guild name reservations and the like. Though they got rid of name reservations -- also a part of the package -- but didn't really reimburse people for that. This is the first case of them not following through on reimbursing us -- yet. Apparently it was a mistake to add the guild reservation in 2016 packages and so they had to keep on selling it, coming up with a plan to pay guild masters back by giving them $10 per member as credit. So having four members reimburses you fully, and you could potentially profit thousands.
This is vastly exceeding the "equal value" pledge when changing things. But also brings up its own problems. In truth, it's incredibly generous, but only to guild masters. Which are the ones that likely bought the reservations in the first place. Perhaps too generous to a fault. People now worry about joining the wrong guilds and using up their new member status.
There is also the guild wallet that people can donate into. Which I actually like, as it provides a safe way to provide for your guild rather than just sending a real check / paypal to a random person. It may lead to mandatory member fees if a guild is considered #1 in the game and constantly provides you with victories, but honestly that's how real guilds / organizations are. It's up to someone if they want to be in that guild or not, as well as the guild itself to decide if they offer enough benefits to justify it. Though this won't apply to 99.99999% of guilds. In most cases, it will just be a case of giving back to the guild because one wants to. In addition to if you know the guild master is trustworthy.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
I trust the developers of Crowfall now, but I don't trust them later. This will end bad some how. All developers get dragon sickness when it comes to pilfering coin from their player base. Cosmetics, then "convenience", then outright P2W.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Wrong move. Hard pass. B2P + semi-regular DLC releases should be all that's needed to make a game profitable. If it doesn't, than maybe the game isn't worth playing in the first place.
What MMO has ever functioned on a box price and expansions alone? The breakneck pace of high price dlc required for such an undertaking is unsustainable and completely unrealistic in the MMO space.
A few CAN I'm sure like Guild wars? ESO? Some Steam MMO's fuction soley on BTP even.
Why did this game not go that route with BTP, DLC + optional sub? cause they are whaling plain and simple.
Has there been any extra content announced for this game similar to DLC or expansions that would justify an ongoing flow of whale funds? So far all I've seen is the base game that they are trying to get ready for the public.
The notion that MMO's after release costs millions to maintain is an illusion and anyone involved in the industry knows this but aren't saying because that'll curb investment into new projects.
Uhm... Guild wars 2 AND ESO have a marketplace ontop of b2p and paid dlc expansions.
Guild Wars 1 not 2. Also, I said "can" if they had to but don't in the case of ESO or even GW2 because more money.
Guild Wars 1 was not an MMO for starters. And they released full price expansions at a breakneck pace. That kind of pace might be feasible for a couple years, but it is incredibly taxing on developer's work/life balance and becomes less effective as the playerbase dwindles.
Plus, Guild Wars 1 did have microtransactions. Costumes, bonus mission packs, bank space, character slots, AI hero slots based on your characters, and more were sold. Granted there was no cash shop integration into the game that I can remember, but microtransactions did exist.
And I said "can" if they had to just like with every other MMO even WoW but they don't cause of greed and not because they are strapped for cash. If they never added microtransactions their expansions would probably be higher quality than the bare minimum they churn out these days. As a developer why would they spend money to develop content for an expansion when they can just add two mounts or pets to the cash shop and make almost the same amount of money.
Posted so it has it's own number to reference instead of quoting longer posts people will have to go through:
Official Wiki run by ANet itself (and accessible from in game)
Guild Wars is a CORPG, or Competitive/Cooperative Online Role Playing Game developed for Windows by ArenaNet and published by NCsoft. The first campaign of Guild Wars, Guild Wars Prophecies
was released on April 28, 2005. The different genre was chosen (as
opposed to the "Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) RPG") due to the
perceived differences between the game and other MMOs: the focus on Player versus Player (PvP) rather than Player versus Environment (PvE) play made it almost a unique case at the time, players received their own instanced copy of explorable zones and parties
were limited to 8 players each, a tiny number compared to the massive
caps of other games, which often allowed for up to 64 players in a
single party (and unlimited players in non-instanced zones, which were
the norm).
----------------------------------------------
Being a player from their beta tests, the Dev teams specifically said that it was not a MMO. To ever classify it as an MMO was just pure misinformation and a lack of understanding of what the game was. It is of the similar ilk to Diablo II in that it has a lobby area and then uses the player's connection to create instances where a party of 8 people can join a game. Indeed, there was even a time when it showed the IP of the person you were connecting to. We may as well call Mario a MMORPG because it has millions of people playing it. To be more realistic, we should call the previous example of Diablo II a MMO as it has the exact same premise.
One of the selling points of GW2 was it being an "Actual MMO" with a "Persistent World". Legitimate zones run by their servers, that they could close if not enough people were in them. Looking at the box of the original copy, it even denotes itself as ANET describes it to be on their site for our viewing pleasure.
Yeah that's what the info says NOW but they have won awards for being best MMO not best CORPG game so that is some pretty serious misinformation being spread around by gaming sites, big name retailers, magazines, wikipedia that was just never corrected for 10+ years? How did they win an MMO award without being an MMO? Can Diablo win a best MMO award? explain that to me.
Here is Anet's own words from 2005 on Amazon not the revised wiki page after they fully cashed in on being an MMO..."Guild Wars takes the best elements of today's massively
multiplayer online games and combines them with a new mission-based
design that eliminates the tedium of those games" That must be wrong though because a dev told you in a private conversation sometime during beta? Show me anything from Anet saying publicly in 2005 that it is a CORPG and not an MMO.
Considering that Crowfall borrows heavily from EVE, none of this surprises me. I recall reading something about a Plex type system from the very beginning.
Plex is not a must have item in EVE unless you want to play for free or want to run multiple accounts. It is just another item on the market.
People need to understand in Crowfall "flying an expensive ship" or inhabiting a decked out expensive body is not a good idea in most real game circumstances. So they can sell fluff stuff that is never meant to leave the Eternal Kingdom you own. Bringing it out to a battle field is foolhardy. You most likely lose the item you just bought in the very next battle. LOL
The backbone of the war effort is going to be who can supply the troops the best over the long haul. Not who can parade out the most fancy bought gear. This means gathering and defending supplies getting it to the craftsman and then making making enough gear for your fighting force PLUS replacement gear. On the more hardcore servers, your armies might need to regroup and gear back up multiple times in a single battle !
I will be keeping a close eye on anything here that turns PTW though. It could ruin what s shaping up to be a good new MMO concept game. If people coulld just buckle down and resist paying reall money for --- Oh look a pony...
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
This game is just a cash grab. Go to the website and buy horses and castles for cash. $10 for a war pig. Get out of here. I really had hopes for this game. What happened to just earning your gear in game and pay a sub fee? This cash shop/microtransaction shit is getting out of hand.
This is exactly what you do in crowfall, there is no gear or any other useful item in the store. You obtain and craft every bit of gear in game, even the items sold can be crafted in game with resources... The shop was part of the kickstarter fund raising, it is not new.
I remember when I pledged $1000 on this game and about 24-72 hours later promptly requested a refund because of the official forum toxicity.
Oh and I still remember one of the developers snarky remark towards non hardcore PvPers. Something along the lines of... "Learn to play" was it? I'll just claim to be paraphrasing.
So how does one "learn to play" in what is now an obvious detrimental approach to what my guess will be is a P2W cash shop. This is why I steer clear of PvP MMOs now. They LOVE that P2W microtransaction crap.
You are seriously misinformed and spreading your false information. There is nothing from the cash shop that can give you any advantage over another player. Everything is crafted in game, nothing is PtW. You steer clear of PvP mmos because you like playing against a predictable AI rather than unpredictable humans, period. Humans are even less predictable with emotions, thus forums that have politics and what you call "toxicity" which in reality is just cheap boasting by loud mouths...
Considering that Crowfall borrows heavily from EVE, none of this surprises me. I recall reading something about a Plex type system from the very beginning.
Plex is not a must have item in EVE unless you want to play for free or want to run multiple accounts. It is just another item on the market.
People need to understand in Crowfall "flying an expensive ship" or inhabiting a decked out expensive body is not a good idea in most real game circumstances. So they can sell fluff stuff that is never meant to leave the Eternal Kingdom you own. Bringing it out to a battle field is foolhardy. You most likely lose the item you just bought in the very next battle. LOL
The backbone of the war effort is going to be who can supply the troops the best over the long haul. Not who can parade out the most fancy bought gear. This means gathering and defending supplies getting it to the craftsman and then making making enough gear for your fighting force PLUS replacement gear. On the more hardcore servers, your armies might need to regroup and gear back up multiple times in a single battle !
I will be keeping a close eye on anything here that turns PTW though. It could ruin what s shaping up to be a good new MMO concept game. If people coulld just buckle down and resist paying reall money for --- Oh look a pony...
You will never buy gear in the shop... parcels, buildings, mounts, skins and VIP is it... no gear at all, it has to be made in game.
I remember when I pledged $1000 on this game and about 24-72 hours later promptly requested a refund because of the official forum toxicity.
@Rhoklaw Forums are much less toxic now, due to constant moderation i.e. a huge number of warnings that keep on happening and a number of perma-bans. You should check them to compare.
Oh and I still remember one of the developers snarky remark towards non hardcore PvPers. Something along the lines of... "Learn to play" was it? I'll just claim to be paraphrasing.
So how does one "learn to play" in what is now an obvious detrimental approach to what my guess will be is a P2W cash shop. This is why I steer clear of PvP MMOs now. They LOVE that P2W microtransaction crap.
It was more than just a remark, they actually sent a massive amount of emails to their backers, telling them to git good(!) Here's the controversial bit:
“...If you come into the game and immediately
seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then
you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game
is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get
better....”
– J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director
I see it as a simple and honest reminder that Crowfall won't be too casual friendly, mixed with an (I'd say quite successful) attempt to hype the game through expected overreactions and controversy.
Considering that Crowfall borrows heavily from EVE, none of this surprises me. I recall reading something about a Plex type system from the very beginning.
Plex is not a must have item in EVE unless you want to play for free or want to run multiple accounts. It is just another item on the market.
People need to understand in Crowfall "flying an expensive ship" or inhabiting a decked out expensive body is not a good idea in most real game circumstances. So they can sell fluff stuff that is never meant to leave the Eternal Kingdom you own. Bringing it out to a battle field is foolhardy. You most likely lose the item you just bought in the very next battle. LOL
The backbone of the war effort is going to be who can supply the troops the best over the long haul. Not who can parade out the most fancy bought gear. This means gathering and defending supplies getting it to the craftsman and then making making enough gear for your fighting force PLUS replacement gear. On the more hardcore servers, your armies might need to regroup and gear back up multiple times in a single battle !
I will be keeping a close eye on anything here that turns PTW though. It could ruin what s shaping up to be a good new MMO concept game. If people coulld just buckle down and resist paying reall money for --- Oh look a pony...
You will never buy gear in the shop... parcels, buildings, mounts, skins and VIP is it... no gear at all, it has to be made in game.
Considering that Crowfall borrows heavily from EVE, none of this surprises me. I recall reading something about a Plex type system from the very beginning.
Plex is not a must have item in EVE unless you want to play for free or want to run multiple accounts. It is just another item on the market.
People need to understand in Crowfall "flying an expensive ship" or inhabiting a decked out expensive body is not a good idea in most real game circumstances. So they can sell fluff stuff that is never meant to leave the Eternal Kingdom you own. Bringing it out to a battle field is foolhardy. You most likely lose the item you just bought in the very next battle. LOL
The backbone of the war effort is going to be who can supply the troops the best over the long haul. Not who can parade out the most fancy bought gear. This means gathering and defending supplies getting it to the craftsman and then making making enough gear for your fighting force PLUS replacement gear. On the more hardcore servers, your armies might need to regroup and gear back up multiple times in a single battle !
I will be keeping a close eye on anything here that turns PTW though. It could ruin what s shaping up to be a good new MMO concept game. If people coulld just buckle down and resist paying reall money for --- Oh look a pony...
You will never buy gear in the shop... parcels, buildings, mounts, skins and VIP is it... no gear at all, it has to be made in game.
Yeah, I kinda knew that too.
You will be able to take a certain amount of gear from EK to a campaign world when you join the campaign, the amount you can bring in varies depending on campaign rules I guess. This is where you could bring in gear *influenced* by buildings you may have paid cash for. Reality says that those items will just be the best stuff you can craft that you are willing to part with, including bodies, errrm "Vessels".
I remember also the manifesto against PTW on the kickstarter, I personally think just a PLEX like system is fine. As long as there is no pay wall like you can only craft a lvl 1 forge in game, and levels 2-5 must be bought for RMT it's fine. A couple of exclusive vanity building that have no overall effect on game play doesn't bother me. If ALL new buildings must be bought or provide services you can't achieve by actually playing the game, that would bother me.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
What MMO has ever functioned on a box price and expansions alone? The breakneck pace of high price dlc required for such an undertaking is unsustainable and completely unrealistic in the MMO space.
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Uhm... Guild wars 2 AND ESO have a marketplace ontop of b2p and paid dlc expansions.
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Guild Wars 1 was not an MMO for starters. And they released full price expansions at a breakneck pace. That kind of pace might be feasible for a couple years, but it is incredibly taxing on developer's work/life balance and becomes less effective as the playerbase dwindles.
Plus, Guild Wars 1 did have microtransactions. Costumes, bonus mission packs, bank space, character slots, AI hero slots based on your characters, and more were sold.
2004 Guild Wars Website. Stating the exact same thing that they say on their wiki.
What kind of game is Guild Wars?
Guild Wars is a competitive online role-playing game. Players can
engage in cooperative group combat, in single player adventures, or in
large head-to-head guild battles. Guild Wars is a mission-based game set
in a stunning
3D fantasy world that offers full, integrated support for guilds.
Because the team that is developing Guild Wars has had experience
creating successful online game series such as Warcraft, StarCraft and
Diablo, the members
are familiar with the complex issues surrounding online games, and
are creating a game that's both easy to learn and compelling to play
long term, and yet doesn’t require players to spend hundreds of hours
slogging through
the preparation just to get to the fun bits.
When will it be released?
The release is scheduled for 2nd Half 2004.
Will there be a monthly fee for Guild Wars?
No, there will not be a monthly subscription fee of any kind, anywhere.
The 1st/3rd points above are important, and I'll be covering them soon.
There have been some glaring issues with that you have asserted:
-About the cash shops -About official sources (of which you provided none -- just throwing the word "amazon" and not giving a link, thinking people wouldn't check what a third party seller says) -About what works in games (In a loose way, from being incorrect about your examples of successful MMOs without a cash shop and don't have a subscription... and my own assertion that potentially having DLC that splits a community in a PvP game is bad for business).
... with you then sticking to one last attempt of "well people who aren't a part of it say this game is an MMO, but this other game isn't an MMO because it doesn't have an MMO award" when backed into a corner by legitimate, first person sources. Well, I officially give Diablo II my MMO Award of the year. My credibility is the same as those random sites that say -- contrary to proven facts and developers themselves -- that, for the sake of argument, D2 is a MMO and gets an award.
Hmm... No. Not really.
It's my own assertion (and one that I held for 12 years) that Guild Wars essentially uses the same technology as D2. The same darn person that made Battle.net, made Guild Wars (see note # 1). The same net infrastructure. The same lobby style glorified chatroom, the same 8 player instance that uses a player's internet to form an instance (and at one point closed it all if they left, until they implemented a transfering tech). Former Blizzard Employees, with there being a misconception that since they advertised "No Subscription", that it was an MMO despite them flat out saying the contrary.
The reason I have so much information regarding this is that I've had a half dozen arguments about it. In addition to having a background in legitimate research and scholastic critiquing (in general) be a part of my early career path, so head cannon isn't that effective on me (and I have an unfair advantage in that I get investor reports about monthly costs on some games). It's true that there's historical precedence that if you state a lie long enough, it becomes truth ("History is written by the victors, and rewritten by the liars") as far as the populace is concerned since it's been propagated so much, and the uneducated (when it comes to specific topics at hand) begin to believe it (such as many myths about various things that we still believe today) due to not wanting to look into it themselves. Though they have stated, before release and in front crowds, what it was and maintain that stance on their official sites. I can pay $20 for a mmo site right now and give Diablo II my all time great MMO award. People will believe it, because they don't worry about facts.
Also, you could use the argument of "your private conversation (when I never said I had a private conversation) against my amazon (that you have no link for because it doesn't say anything of the sort now)", though beta forums, an actual 2004 official website (Which also has E3 explanations from that year), their official site and their box copies of the time are all indisputable, insurmountable concrete first person evidence that is without reproach, especially when compared to "Because I remember people saying it is an MMO or because this site owned by a third party -- likely one person -- says so."
No. GW1 Is not an MMO. It was never an MMO. No one who knew what they were saying ever called it an MMO. These are opinions / assertions backed by tangible facts from official sources with actual links versus head cannon from third party sources and rhetoric. You're welcome to have the opinion that it is. Just as people are welcome to give an apple the award for best tasting orange. People are welcome to believe that it is an MMO since there were so many people fooled by their "no subscription" (see # 3) marketing tactic to get more noticed in an industry that just saw WoW get released in a still growing online market.
Post edited by Yaevindusk on
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Wrong move. Hard pass. B2P + semi-regular DLC releases should be all that's needed to make a game profitable. If it doesn't, than maybe the game isn't worth playing in the first place.
What MMO has ever functioned on a box price and expansions alone? The breakneck pace of high price dlc required for such an undertaking is unsustainable and completely unrealistic in the MMO space.
A few CAN I'm sure like Guild wars? ESO? Some Steam MMO's fuction soley on BTP even.
Why did this game not go that route with BTP, DLC + optional sub? cause they are whaling plain and simple.
Has there been any extra content announced for this game similar to DLC or expansions that would justify an ongoing flow of whale funds? So far all I've seen is the base game that they are trying to get ready for the public.
The notion that MMO's after release costs millions to maintain is an illusion and anyone involved in the industry knows this but aren't saying because that'll curb investment into new projects.
Decided to talk about this in a different post (mainly because the one above is maxed out).
At present, Crowfall is B2P + Optional Sub + Eternal Kingdom Fluff
12 million actually isn't a whole lot to make a game with. They've been revamping each system and ironing things out. They have expressed interests in new planet types and new classes in the past, among various other things. Though we've all seen what happens when someone plans an expansion before the original is released with ARK among other games. Planning on making what you have as good as you can get it takes priority in design.
Also, I participated in the first ever non-accredited investor campaign with the new laws that went into effect, and I receive monthly investor reports from ACE and a few others that I've since dipped my hands into. It's all confidential so I won't go into specifics, but money drains fast for a first project indie -- especially when you're not released yet, need to still worry about marketing and have no reliable income as a result.
You may have looked at super old, third party data about bandwidth costs in the past and drew conclusions from them -- many people have seen them floating around -- but those don't even begin to address costs and re-investments.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
I remember when I pledged $1000 on this game and about 24-72 hours later promptly requested a refund because of the official forum toxicity.
Oh and I still remember one of the developers snarky remark towards non hardcore PvPers. Something along the lines of... "Learn to play" was it? I'll just claim to be paraphrasing.
So how does one "learn to play" in what is now an obvious detrimental approach to what my guess will be is a P2W cash shop. This is why I steer clear of PvP MMOs now. They LOVE that P2W microtransaction crap.
You are seriously misinformed and spreading your false information. There is nothing from the cash shop that can give you any advantage over another player. Everything is crafted in game, nothing is PtW. You steer clear of PvP mmos because you like playing against a predictable AI rather than unpredictable humans, period. Humans are even less predictable with emotions, thus forums that have politics and what you call "toxicity" which in reality is just cheap boasting by loud mouths...
I never said the cash shop was P2W, I said it will be. Even if it's all fluff and cosmetic now, I promise you, just like Kakao promised us that BDO wouldn't be P2W, and not even 2 weeks after the game launched, they already started adding P2W items. I don't know a lot of PvP focused games with a cash shop that didn't fall prey to the P2W monetization. Just wait until the game launches and I'm sure it will happen.
No it won't be. You are assuming it will be based on an example from another game from another developer which is a very poor case to begin with. I could just as easily turn it around by using PoE as an example of a game that never became P2W while still having a cash shop.
In reality, we don't know what will happen, but the signs are in favor of the game, not against it as some are hell bent to believe without the proper research or knowledge. And that last part is the real problem, people spreading assumptions as if they are truths. And I get it, a lot have been burnt before and have become jaded. But please, don't let that spoil the good stuff out there, for yourselves AND for others.
Crowfall is still ticking all the right boxes for what it is doing. And an item on an MMORPG having micro transations/ a cash shop? Why? Since they literally ALL have them by now, might as well write a column when an MMORPG requires an internet connection.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Comments
Can you do some actual research into the game before you bitch about it?
Smedley lost Sony 60mil with his free to play your way nonsense so whatever he says about ftp shouldn't be given a 2nd thought IMO.
"They do cash shop because it is a significant piece of what pays for the game."
They do cash shops because it allows them to go whaling cause what company doesn't like making MORE money. That greed is what I'm talking about and not necessary in games.
As it relates to this thread, in-game currency added that can be used for in-game activities only cheapens the experience because then the game becomes whoever spends the most cash wins the game. If you look at all the games recently that have done this like WoW, Albion etc the value of in-game items drops in value because in-game currency becomes like Zimbabwe wheelbarrow money. When tokens in WoW were introduced they cost 20k'ish on my server and now they are $180k. In Albion if you want to just buy everything from the market you just buy gold and convert it to silver and you repeat that for everything you need which just ruins the experience for everyone cause prices get jacked up for the P2W people so how exactly is it good for a game.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Frankly, your argument is purely ideological. You do not understand the business realities of a genre with incredibly high upkeep. You expect the same model as a single player game, and you have allowed yourself to believe that such a thing is feasible.
It isn't fiction that every game that creates a currency that can be traded for in-game currency can be manipulated by the game company and usually is because do you really think a game company will leave their economy up to chance?. Do you remember the argument that was thrown around here when WoW tokens came out? "They are only 20k" "If you can't earn 20k then you are a ____" now they are 180k so where are those people now? They aren't here admitting they were wrong just like you didn't admit that when you said Guild Wars wasn't an MMO you were wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars. In Trove they introduced credit packs that allow you to sell store currency for in-game currency to players and now you see people selling 20+ credit pouches, 10 credit pouches etc at an ever changing rate that is determined 100% by the game company.
If you are using GW2 as a good example of a 2nd currency then read that link I posted above. The only people it's "relatively stable" for is Arenanet making thousands upon thousands of dollars off afluent weak willed players but seeing as you guys in this thread are defending second currency so hard I guess you all agree with that type of business practice.
In the specific case of this game if they kept the 2nd currency soley as a currency to be used outside the game(like ESO, praise be to ESO) then I see no problem but seeing as they said it will be used for in-game activities throws up red flags because most of those 2nd currencies that started off like the innocent 20k WoW token snowballed into something much worse for players as time went on.
From what I have read it seems more like what ESO has been doing, but the ability to trade subscription time for gold/in game items is where I see the potential for p2w. See point 9 in link below.
https://crowfall.com/en/faq/general/pricing/
The whole being able to trade VIP membership to other players is a mirror of Trove's patron so it basically confirms all of my fears. It doesn't completely bar you from the game like WoW's token but like the token will still be the main goal players will grind for month after month.
"completely optional and will not affect your ability to play and enjoy the game" yet you will be progressing slower if you don't have VIP so how exactly does that not "impact gameplay" or "affect your ability to play and enjoy the game". I'm sure everyone enjoys progressing slower than others because they did not pay extra money for a game they already bought.
The pricing page didn't mention how the 2nd currency will be able to be used in-game which is the part I'm mostly concerned about.
Gems to gold conversion is only a bad thing if the whale gains a significant performance advantage by whipping out their credit card. In other words, currency conversion is not a problem in and of itself. With the right business model, which Guild Wars 2 has, currency conversion contributes to a fair business model by allowing every player to obtain even the most prestigious cash shop items without spending money. I like that feature. I appreciate that feature. That feature is part of why I respect Guild Wars 2 as a game.
Also, you're being asinine by saying that Guild Wars 2's currency is only relatively stable for the company end. By your reasoning, the entire ingame economy would be undermined by currency conversion, but prices remain relatively consistent based on natural ingame demand. Here's a few examples. Ectos (the material iconic and important enough to be a currency in the original game) maintain a 25-35 silver price range at all times. Mithril and elder wood prices have remained consistent ever since precursor crafting was introduced. Legendary prices are relatively consistent. The trading post has been a generally friendly market for both buyers and sellers throughout the game's lifespan and has maintained more stability than a vast majority of game economies.
Meanwhile, gem prices have maintained very typical trends for at least two years now. During normal demand periods, gems maintain a price of approximately 90-105 gold per 400 gems. During new cash shop releases, this spikes slightly into the 110-115 gold range. During periods of high demand (such as week-long holiday sale events), that can raise to about 120-130. None of these numbers are unexpected, and none stand out as manipulative on the company's part. Gem price fluctuations are pretty predictable and tend to line up perfectly with community demand - as one would expect in a player driven economy. Is it possible that Arenanet has someone standing by, manipulating the prices slightly every few minutes and spiking them up during times when they would naturally spike in price anyway? Possibly. You know what is a hell of a lot more likely than paying employees to sit there all day and actively manipulate prices? Allowing demand for new gem store items and sales to predictably create those prices for them.
Moreover, I was 100% correct when I said that Guild Wars 1 is not an MMO. Arenanet doesn't even refer to it as one. They explicitly, in fact, deny the label. And rightly so. A 4-8 player group cap for all content is far from an MMO.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars
There is an actual source. The officially recognized Guild Wars Wiki. Not Wikipedia. And what does it say?
"Guild Wars is a CORPG, or Competitive/Cooperative Online Role Playing Game developed for Windows by ArenaNet and published by NCsoft."
That's right, it's a CORPG. The same genre that is now represented by Divinity Original Sin. Quality instanced small group RPG action without the baggage of a full MMORPG.
https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars
In the description from this site "the game is an instanced MMOG"
Along with countless other MMO sites that have it listed as an MMO along with Wikipedia.
So yes you are right that NOW the label was changed to CORPG but that wasn't the label originally. If you don't believe me look at the reviews on amazon and you find only one that mentions CORPG. Also be sure to check out the description "From the manufacturer"
that mentions MMORPG and no where CORPG
https://www.amazon.com/Guild-Wars-Game-Year-PC/dp/B0002BJQDY
Also, in Divinity you can be around other players in hubs? or pvp in groups? isn't it just a single player game with co-op option?
Guild Wars 1... has a cash shop. I own everything in it. All those costumes, Hero Mercenaries, skill unlocks (yes, paying to unlock all skills has been in since shortly after its release), etc.
In addition, it is not an MMO. It's a town lobby and uses the player's connection to make instances. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars (Official Wiki ran by Anet and not the random internet that has no connection to them; there's even a link to this on their main website www.guildwars.com)
Also, splintering the community in a PvP game with DLCs that separate people sounds like an INCREDIBLY bad idea (and what can they do to not splinter it? Make cosmetic DLCs? That's still a microtransaction). You need to think about context and actual facts before suggesting these things (such as saying -- as I read it at least -- that GW1 is a MMO and doesn't have a shop).
Crowfall is B2P + Optional Sub + Cosmetic Shop at the moment. With them being required to move to the whole "crown" system due to European Laws. This sort of misunderstanding also occurs when people get upset when a game has 1 USD = 1 Euro in their exchange system. Due to VAT, the devs / publishers are actually making less per European player than American player at that point as they are required by law (from what I read) to include VAT in their purchase and not just tack it on afterwards. They're actually eating a loss at that point to make it look more fair, as opposed to just putting in (as an example) $1 = 100 Units / $1.18 Euros = 100 Units.
Posted so it has it's own number to reference instead of quoting longer posts people will have to go through:
Official Wiki run by ANet itself (and accessible from in game)
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars
Guild Wars is a CORPG, or Competitive/Cooperative Online Role Playing Game developed for Windows by ArenaNet and published by NCsoft. The first campaign of Guild Wars, Guild Wars Prophecies was released on April 28, 2005. The different genre was chosen (as opposed to the "Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) RPG") due to the perceived differences between the game and other MMOs: the focus on Player versus Player (PvP) rather than Player versus Environment (PvE) play made it almost a unique case at the time, players received their own instanced copy of explorable zones and parties were limited to 8 players each, a tiny number compared to the massive caps of other games, which often allowed for up to 64 players in a single party (and unlimited players in non-instanced zones, which were the norm).
----------------------------------------------
Being a player from their beta tests, the Dev teams specifically said that it was not a MMO. To ever classify it as an MMO was just pure misinformation and a lack of understanding of what the game was. It is of the similar ilk to Diablo II in that it has a lobby area and then uses the player's connection to create instances where a party of 8 people can join a game. Indeed, there was even a time when it showed the IP of the person you were connecting to. We may as well call Mario a MMORPG because it has millions of people playing it. To be more realistic, we should call the previous example of Diablo II a MMO as it has the exact same premise.
One of the selling points of GW2 was it being an "Actual MMO" with a "Persistent World". Legitimate zones run by their servers, that they could close if not enough people were in them. Looking at the box of the original copy, it even denotes itself as ANET describes it to be on their site for our viewing pleasure.
Been following the game since Kickstarter and did all my research prior to donating. To date I've only helped fund a handful of games after looking into the public backgrounds of those that headed the project -- mainly to see if they were who they claimed they were. To date, all of the projects I've funded were great successes and released games that I played at least twice. These include Shadowrun, Divinity: Original Sin, Divinity: Original Sin 2, Crowfall, Grimdawn, Etc.
They have treated me well over the years as I perused their sites and contacted their support, often getting a response from e-mail within minutes and seeing a lot of interaction on their forum sites. They gave me quite a bit of deals over the years, free stuff, etc. The biggest treat being able to trade in kickstarter items that I didn't want for credit shortly after the funding campaign was over. This is in addition to being the first company to offer actual stock / shares in the company under new title regulations. As such, I receive monthly investor reports and in depth knowledge.
The thing is, I absolutely hate PvP games. It has been my belief that they aren't popular enough to survive in the market -- or at least history has shown this. Many say that it's just because 99% of those games were flawed in some way. Though despite all of this, what I saw in my research -- and the contact I've had with the company -- led me not only to donate through kickstarter, but also invest in the company. They're good people that have treated their early adopters well. Trying to make as many things as possible as fair as possible -- and if they change anything, giving a promise that they will replace it with something of equal worth (though exclaim that most likely that translates into a much bigger return for us -- and I've seen that first hand with some reimbursements that vastly exceeded my expectations as a whole).
As a whole they have built up an incredible amount of good will from those that have actually be paying attention to them and participating in the community.
Some recent criticism and reservations I have are as followed:
I don't like how they're rewarding big guilds by giving them free money for each member they have. This seems odd to say, as they're giving free money, but as a person who likes to join small guilds, I think this is just making the "rich richer" as a whole. It can only be used on cosmetic stuff, but still. It's also incentives for my own friends to join elsewhere, or for zergs to form because hey, free money.
Their reasoning for this seems to be the Kickstarter and package promises of guild name reservations and the like. Though they got rid of name reservations -- also a part of the package -- but didn't really reimburse people for that. This is the first case of them not following through on reimbursing us -- yet. Apparently it was a mistake to add the guild reservation in 2016 packages and so they had to keep on selling it, coming up with a plan to pay guild masters back by giving them $10 per member as credit. So having four members reimburses you fully, and you could potentially profit thousands.
This is vastly exceeding the "equal value" pledge when changing things. But also brings up its own problems. In truth, it's incredibly generous, but only to guild masters. Which are the ones that likely bought the reservations in the first place. Perhaps too generous to a fault. People now worry about joining the wrong guilds and using up their new member status.
There is also the guild wallet that people can donate into. Which I actually like, as it provides a safe way to provide for your guild rather than just sending a real check / paypal to a random person. It may lead to mandatory member fees if a guild is considered #1 in the game and constantly provides you with victories, but honestly that's how real guilds / organizations are. It's up to someone if they want to be in that guild or not, as well as the guild itself to decide if they offer enough benefits to justify it. Though this won't apply to 99.99999% of guilds. In most cases, it will just be a case of giving back to the guild because one wants to. In addition to if you know the guild master is trustworthy.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Here is Anet's own words from 2005 on Amazon not the revised wiki page after they fully cashed in on being an MMO..."Guild Wars takes the best elements of today's massively multiplayer online games and combines them with a new mission-based design that eliminates the tedium of those games" That must be wrong though because a dev told you in a private conversation sometime during beta? Show me anything from Anet saying publicly in 2005 that it is a CORPG and not an MMO.
Plex is not a must have item in EVE unless you want to play for free or want to run multiple accounts. It is just another item on the market.
People need to understand in Crowfall "flying an expensive ship" or inhabiting a decked out expensive body is not a good idea in most real game circumstances. So they can sell fluff stuff that is never meant to leave the Eternal Kingdom you own. Bringing it out to a battle field is foolhardy. You most likely lose the item you just bought in the very next battle. LOL
The backbone of the war effort is going to be who can supply the troops the best over the long haul. Not who can parade out the most fancy bought gear. This means gathering and defending supplies getting it to the craftsman and then making making enough gear for your fighting force PLUS replacement gear. On the more hardcore servers, your armies might need to regroup and gear back up multiple times in a single battle !
I will be keeping a close eye on anything here that turns PTW though. It could ruin what s shaping up to be a good new MMO concept game. If people coulld just buckle down and resist paying reall money for --- Oh look a pony...
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
This is exactly what you do in crowfall, there is no gear or any other useful item in the store. You obtain and craft every bit of gear in game, even the items sold can be crafted in game with resources... The shop was part of the kickstarter fund raising, it is not new.
You are seriously misinformed and spreading your false information. There is nothing from the cash shop that can give you any advantage over another player. Everything is crafted in game, nothing is PtW. You steer clear of PvP mmos because you like playing against a predictable AI rather than unpredictable humans, period. Humans are even less predictable with emotions, thus forums that have politics and what you call "toxicity" which in reality is just cheap boasting by loud mouths...
You will never buy gear in the shop... parcels, buildings, mounts, skins and VIP is it... no gear at all, it has to be made in game.
Speaking of your $1000 refund episode, here's the link to the controversial discussion that made you leave, for everyone to see and make their own conclusions. I linked to your first appearance - tho the whole thread is a kind of experiment on..."toxicity"? - https://community.crowfall.com/topic/7629-why-do-people-think-they-can-fix-toxicity/?do=findComment&comment=204555
It was more than just a remark, they actually sent a massive amount of emails to their backers, telling them to git good(!) Here's the controversial bit:
“...If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better....”
– J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director
I see it as a simple and honest reminder that Crowfall won't be too casual friendly, mixed with an (I'd say quite successful) attempt to hype the game through expected overreactions and controversy.
Yeah, I kinda knew that too.
You will be able to take a certain amount of gear from EK to a campaign world when you join the campaign, the amount you can bring in varies depending on campaign rules I guess. This is where you could bring in gear *influenced* by buildings you may have paid cash for. Reality says that those items will just be the best stuff you can craft that you are willing to part with, including bodies, errrm "Vessels".
I remember also the manifesto against PTW on the kickstarter, I personally think just a PLEX like system is fine. As long as there is no pay wall like you can only craft a lvl 1 forge in game, and levels 2-5 must be bought for RMT it's fine. A couple of exclusive vanity building that have no overall effect on game play doesn't bother me. If ALL new buildings must be bought or provide services you can't achieve by actually playing the game, that would bother me.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
https://web.archive.org/web/20040602202532/http://www.guildwars.com:80/faq/default.html
2004 Guild Wars Website. Stating the exact same thing that they say on their wiki.
What kind of game is Guild Wars?
The 1st/3rd points above are important, and I'll be covering them soon.There have been some glaring issues with that you have asserted:
-About the cash shops
-About official sources (of which you provided none -- just throwing the word "amazon" and not giving a link, thinking people wouldn't check what a third party seller says)
-About what works in games (In a loose way, from being incorrect about your examples of successful MMOs without a cash shop and don't have a subscription... and my own assertion that potentially having DLC that splits a community in a PvP game is bad for business).
... with you then sticking to one last attempt of "well people who aren't a part of it say this game is an MMO, but this other game isn't an MMO because it doesn't have an MMO award" when backed into a corner by legitimate, first person sources. Well, I officially give Diablo II my MMO Award of the year. My credibility is the same as those random sites that say -- contrary to proven facts and developers themselves -- that, for the sake of argument, D2 is a MMO and gets an award.
Hmm... No. Not really.
It's my own assertion (and one that I held for 12 years) that Guild Wars essentially uses the same technology as D2. The same darn person that made Battle.net, made Guild Wars (see note # 1). The same net infrastructure. The same lobby style glorified chatroom, the same 8 player instance that uses a player's internet to form an instance (and at one point closed it all if they left, until they implemented a transfering tech). Former Blizzard Employees, with there being a misconception that since they advertised "No Subscription", that it was an MMO despite them flat out saying the contrary.
The reason I have so much information regarding this is that I've had a half dozen arguments about it. In addition to having a background in legitimate research and scholastic critiquing (in general) be a part of my early career path, so head cannon isn't that effective on me (and I have an unfair advantage in that I get investor reports about monthly costs on some games). It's true that there's historical precedence that if you state a lie long enough, it becomes truth ("History is written by the victors, and rewritten by the liars") as far as the populace is concerned since it's been propagated so much, and the uneducated (when it comes to specific topics at hand) begin to believe it (such as many myths about various things that we still believe today) due to not wanting to look into it themselves. Though they have stated, before release and in front crowds, what it was and maintain that stance on their official sites. I can pay $20 for a mmo site right now and give Diablo II my all time great MMO award. People will believe it, because they don't worry about facts.
Also, you could use the argument of "your private conversation (when I never said I had a private conversation) against my amazon (that you have no link for because it doesn't say anything of the sort now)", though beta forums, an actual 2004 official website (Which also has E3 explanations from that year), their official site and their box copies of the time are all indisputable, insurmountable concrete first person evidence that is without reproach, especially when compared to "Because I remember people saying it is an MMO or because this site owned by a third party -- likely one person -- says so."
No. GW1 Is not an MMO. It was never an MMO. No one who knew what they were saying ever called it an MMO. These are opinions / assertions backed by tangible facts from official sources with actual links versus head cannon from third party sources and rhetoric. You're welcome to have the opinion that it is. Just as people are welcome to give an apple the award for best tasting orange. People are welcome to believe that it is an MMO since there were so many people fooled by their "no subscription" (see # 3) marketing tactic to get more noticed in an industry that just saw WoW get released in a still growing online market.
Decided to talk about this in a different post (mainly because the one above is maxed out).
At present, Crowfall is B2P + Optional Sub + Eternal Kingdom Fluff
12 million actually isn't a whole lot to make a game with. They've been revamping each system and ironing things out. They have expressed interests in new planet types and new classes in the past, among various other things. Though we've all seen what happens when someone plans an expansion before the original is released with ARK among other games. Planning on making what you have as good as you can get it takes priority in design.
Also, I participated in the first ever non-accredited investor campaign with the new laws that went into effect, and I receive monthly investor reports from ACE and a few others that I've since dipped my hands into. It's all confidential so I won't go into specifics, but money drains fast for a first project indie -- especially when you're not released yet, need to still worry about marketing and have no reliable income as a result.
You may have looked at super old, third party data about bandwidth costs in the past and drew conclusions from them -- many people have seen them floating around -- but those don't even begin to address costs and re-investments.
In reality, we don't know what will happen, but the signs are in favor of the game, not against it as some are hell bent to believe without the proper research or knowledge. And that last part is the real problem, people spreading assumptions as if they are truths. And I get it, a lot have been burnt before and have become jaded. But please, don't let that spoil the good stuff out there, for yourselves AND for others.
Crowfall is still ticking all the right boxes for what it is doing. And an item on an MMORPG having micro transations/ a cash shop? Why? Since they literally ALL have them by now, might as well write a column when an MMORPG requires an internet connection.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer