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I hope Vanilla proves their is a market for social interaction

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,032
edited December 2017 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Blizzard announced that it will be releasing a 2004 version of Vanilla World of Warcraft.  

This news stirs a lot of controversy on how popular it will be.  Some say temporary nostalgia, some say they will play it for ever, and everything in between........ My opinion, this doesn't need to be discussed or debated.  In fact if one were to think about it, It doesn't matter, Blizzard will always adjust server size where everyone will be happy regardless.  



The real topic: 
Will it be studied ?..... Will marketing take a step back and say " people like to interact and make communities" ? 

After all Blizzard created a narrative campaign that everything should be auto-handed to the player with the assumption of "capturing everyone" from 6 to 60.  

I'll admit, capturing everyone isn't a bad idea ON PAPER !.....But did it work ?  

All other mmorpgs followed this campaign, keeping a blind eye that it's best to follow the money (Blizzard)....But did this work ?

  

Important: 
It's impossible to chart !!!....... Something that worked STOPPED, then re-tooled differently with no turning back and forced. 
 
How can you gage "then vs. now"  if now is fixated and absolute ?.......Forced is a harsh word, I hate using it, but that's what happened, capture everyone. 

6 million players..... Could it have been 12 million ?....... It's impossible to chart the unknown!  

  

I hope Vanilla will prove something to the close minded executives that marketing can't reach into the souls of players.  If not we have Pantheon Rise of the Fallen, Ashes of Creation and Saga of Lucimia.... Let's hope their quality games and not broken.  
GdemamiMikeha
«134

Comments

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    The fact that games like Project 1999 which is Base Everquest with first 2 expansion and thats it exsists with a decent size player base considering the little hoops you have to jump through at times to get the game installed.
    People still want MMO with social interaciton
    AmatheGyva02
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,178
    in general... No it will not. 

    You will have a vanilla community that will hopefully embrace the "old ways" but most others will try it out for the sheer novelty and then move on. And by others i mean the people with no real interest in the "old ways". Who have no emotional connection to it or cant be arsed. 

    I am sure there will be some who stay and prosper. But it highly doubt it will change the view of the market in large. 
    KyleranMrMelGibsonshalissar

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,032
    tawess said:
    in general... No it will not. 

    You will have a vanilla community that will hopefully embrace the "old ways" but most others will try it out for the sheer novelty and then move on. And by others i mean the people with no real interest in the "old ways". Who have no emotional connection to it or cant be arsed. 

    I am sure there will be some who stay and prosper. But it highly doubt it will change the view of the market in large. 

    I believe what you say, I don't like it but I believe it !  

    I fear, the ones that try it will be its already fixated players of auto-handed game play..... They will not like having to go the extra mile, of something they can have easily in their already replica. 

    Key word accustomed, to what they had been doing !  
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,178
    Yeah

    There is a entire "generation" of gamers that rightfully so see games like EQ1 UO and classic WoW as relics of a bygone era. Limited by their design and lack of development. 

    After all... It is all true. We look at the old arcade and console games in the same way. That does not equal that nobody likes them. In fact there are very strong communities around these things.. like most things "classic". But much like the Morris Minor appreciation clubs... They have very little effect on the world at large. 

    Heck... vanilla WoW was sort of outdated by the time it came out. Games like City of Heroes and Star Wars Galaxies had many QoL features that it would take WoW years to get. Such as in-game quest area tracking, group que and transmog. 

    But what it had was momentum. A metric ton of momentum. 

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,226
    Lack of features doesn't really translate to more social interaction, and it has never been the case.

    Other things may have been the cause, but not the lack of features in vanilla.




  • AntariousAntarious Member UncommonPosts: 2,805
    edited December 2017
    I'm not following what you mean exactly... it seems you are talking about "auto handed gameplay" that somehow destroyed Social Interaction and/or Community.

    World of Warcraft at launch was at best "as difficult" and more commonly much easier than any previous MMO that had launched...

    Social Interaction and Community in say Ultima Online wasn't based around "group content" or even "needing something".  It was certainly easy enough to get gear and reagents etc in UO...  People stood around town being Social... or created "Player Towns" because they were lucky enough to get houses down in an area to do it... 

    In EQ Social/Community probably was based more on grouping... because there was so much forced down time you often did talk to your group.   So obviously when you decided you liked someone you were going to look for them when you were on.  Then there was also the whole trade setup in the Tunnel.... where players knew they could go to see if someone had something they wanted or needed something they had.

    For me personally the Social or Community option changes when players leave the game.  Because... if your friends or the people you know leave... then obviously you notice.  Some people leave because the game changed and others leave due to things in real life and sometimes they just vanish.... and that could be for any reason or maybe even that they just started over on another server and wanted to vanish.

    I don't like WoW as it is now... but I can log in and be all kinds of social and thus feel there is a community.  I just don't actually know any of the people I interact with...

    Personally I would say the fact that people want everything as fast as possible and will put themselves to task to get it done... has had the larger impact on social interaction and/or community. (edit: and you are certainly going to see this on classic.)

    One MMO I was playing at launch I was invited to a guild and then put in a group with the guild leader.  The only thing the lead and their "right hand" really cared about was getting to max level.  I remember watching guild chat and seeing people struggle and the guild slowly ripping its self apart.  Which is a fairly common scenario these days... (edit to add:  This wasn't really knew I remember people in EQ that had been in my UO guild.. would group hop to get the items they needed.  Leaving other guildies behind that had helped them and still needed items.  That type of thing had a pretty negative impact.)

    or TLDR The reason Social Interaction and/or Community in games changed.. is mostly due to the people playing the games.

    Game design isn't going to fix that... but if you actually enjoy playing the game.. you will over look a lot of it.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,076
    I interact with other players daily in all my MMOs, old and new.

    What those older games did is to FORCE people by using FORCED grouping. That kind of mechanics will never be popular again, because player like choice, they don't like to be forced down a single road.

    And unless you're antisocial, nobody needs to be FORCED to interact. Social people will do it naturally.
    rojoArcueidTorvalMrMelGibsonshalissar
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,055
    I interact with other players daily in all my MMOs, old and new.

    What those older games did is to FORCE people by using FORCED grouping. That kind of mechanics will never be popular again, because player like choice, they don't like to be forced down a single road.

    And unless you're antisocial, nobody needs to be FORCED to interact. Social people will do it naturally.
    Wasn't people still being FORCED grouping in nowadays game ?

    "that kind of mechanics will never be popular again" ? lol , they now standard FORCED to solo few level then get FORCED to grouping to do instances then again get FORCED to solo .
    "Never be popular again" ? funny .
  • GhavriggGhavrigg Member RarePosts: 1,308




    The real topic: 
    Will it be studied ?..... Will marketing take a step back and say " people like to interact and make communities" ? 

    https://www.pcgamesn.com/world-of-warcraft/world-of-warcraft-battle-for-azeroth-communities
  • WarlyxWarlyx Member RarePosts: 2,955
    edited December 2017
    what u call social? joining a guild? , going LFG on chat? , or chatting with strangers ?

    in wow vanilla u interacted with your guild the most (like always) and joined pugs for dungeons or even PVP, had some friends in other guilds or 2 guilds were friendly to each other , there was some competition and in pvp u remembered your opponents since it was just your server not shared bg, there were player events but outside that....oh just gonna add 2 words

    Barrens chat.

    :lol:
    Jean-Luc_Picard
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,802
    This is a double edged sword. I'll be clear, I want this. For me, it would still be the best option out there, assuming Blizzard doesn't FCK it all up. The biggest problem with this, is that people, like me who do want this, want the systems and mechanics that brought us our enjoyment in the early 2ks. What we don't want is the fact that we have to repeat the same content we played over and over again during those years. If there is noting in the way of new content coming, and frankly, I'd be suspicious if there was, it's going to get old much quicker than if it was a new game released with "classic" designs.
    MrMelGibson
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,229
    I don't know what WoW looks like now.  But it must really lack social interaction if you call Vanilla Wow a social interaction game.  

    I hope it'll do alright.  I don't think it'll be popular if it don't get updated.  But as long as someone is enjoying it, it is a good thing.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,191
    WoW was one of the worst games I remember playing for social interaction...... A very poor community from what I remember.
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    The main difference is the world didn't have instance travel, LFG tools, or quest trackers.  There were also Crowd Control mechanics in game which required discussing strategy before going into dungeons to fight. 

    Without instant travel, people had to coordinate getting to dungeons and places.  Usually, there would be some super extrovert people who would go around inviting everyone to dungeon through word of mouth.  EQ was like this as well.  Sometimes it led to some dialogue.

    Quest trackers and markers removed player interaction in terms of helping with quests via general chat.  Players would often shout where is x location or mob and 20 people would say over there!

    As discussed in the crowd control discussion there were group tactics that required some coordination.  It might not seem like much or simple, but when it needs to be executed over and over again fairly precisely one small mistake can cause a wipe.  Getting everyone to target the same mob was not always so easy as it sounds.  This was especially the case in games like Everquest, but also to a lesser degree in WoW.  Getting everyone to be on the same page and cooperate was important in group scenarios.
  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 520
    The main flaw in your thesis is the belief that social interaction will return with vanilla WoW... 

    Social interaction can occur now in any game at any time should the players deem such interaction worthwhile.  The lack of LFG tools didn't promote such interaction, it was a product of the times.  

    The internet was new.  The concept of even talking to someone online was new.  There wasn't a plethora of information out there about every nook and cranny of the game, so players had to rely on each other.

    The internet is not new anymore.  Most games are dissected before they are even released.  MMO-Champion broadcasts every little detail they can datamine, players with access to beta write copious wikis about what they see and do.  It took quite some time for said information to be disseminated in the past, now it happens in almost real-time.

    So no, vanilla WoW reboot won't prove anything about the need for social interaction because that occurred without any input on Blizzards part.  And it is why it will or will not happen only if YOU make it happen.

    You choose to go to a Bar and gather with friends.  You choose to stay home and read a book alone.  You choose to watch the game with friends.  You choose to watch it alone.  You choose to text someone that you are at a stop light waiting for the light to change.  You choose to not text anyone at all.

    More people than not were enamored with the whole idea of communicating with complete strangers from around the world back then than they are now.  Social interaction is a function of choice, not design.

    You want social interaction?  You make it happen.  You don't want to make it happen, it's not going to happen on it's own.  You're playing with a bunch of people that don't have anything to say to you... out of choice, not design.  
    Mendelshalissar
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,076
    edited December 2017
    iixviiiix said:
    I interact with other players daily in all my MMOs, old and new.

    What those older games did is to FORCE people by using FORCED grouping. That kind of mechanics will never be popular again, because player like choice, they don't like to be forced down a single road.

    And unless you're antisocial, nobody needs to be FORCED to interact. Social people will do it naturally.
    Wasn't people still being FORCED grouping in nowadays game ?

    "that kind of mechanics will never be popular again" ? lol , they now standard FORCED to solo few level then get FORCED to grouping to do instances then again get FORCED to solo .
    "Never be popular again" ? funny .
    Nowadays when you log into a MMORPG, you are definitely NOT forced to find a group. You have plenty of activities to engage solo, if, for ANY reason, you don't feel like grouping right now.

    You are never forced to solo. You can group to clear solo content. As opposed to not being able to solo group content.

    And before you answer to this, think twice... the OP mentions "social interaction". I just don't buy that logic that the only MMORPGs with social interactions are those which force(d) grouping. I never have, I never will. Being social has NEVER meant grouping with 4, 9 , 19 or 39 other nerds in order to bash some mobs because you have no other choice.
    Torval
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • seldinseldin Member UncommonPosts: 186
    sanshi44 said:
    The fact that games like Project 1999 which is Base Everquest with first 2 expansion and thats it exsists with a decent size player base considering the little hoops you have to jump through at times to get the game installed.
    People still want MMO with social interaciton

    It proves that a few people will play the game but not enough to support it.  Just because they can get a preexisting game to run does not make it smart or doable.  If these people had to actually design and code everything from the ground up they wouldn't be doing it either.  Comparing a develop company who must create everything to a group of people who appropriated someone else's work is like comparing apples and oranges.  
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    I don't think this will prove much no matter how well it does.

    Could more focus on group play and a general higher difficulty be fun? Yeah, certainly. 
    Can you earn money on nostalgia? Oh, yes.

    But even if vanilla Wow suddenly steal most players from regular Wow and hit an insane amount of players it doesn't really prove much, just that people missed classic Wow. The one impact it would make is that if Blizz make a Wow2 it will be closer to vanilla if the server becomes a huge hit. It is also possible that Wows next expansion would be influenced by it but I ain't betting any money on it.

    On other MMOs it wont have much if any impact. They already know that vanilla Wow was popular, a successful vanilla serversetting would have no impact on ESO or GW2 no matter what. If it do badly it would prove that people think a 13 year old game are dated, that doesn't help anyone either.

    At best Blizzard will change things because of it and that is just if it does extremely good or bad.
    MrMelGibson
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,032
    Loke666 said:
    I don't think this will prove much no matter how well it does.

    Could more focus on group play and a general higher difficulty be fun? Yeah, certainly. 
    Can you earn money on nostalgia? Oh, yes.

    But even if vanilla Wow suddenly steal most players from regular Wow and hit an insane amount of players it doesn't really prove much, just that people missed classic Wow. The one impact it would make is that if Blizz make a Wow2 it will be closer to vanilla if the server becomes a huge hit. It is also possible that Wows next expansion would be influenced by it but I ain't betting any money on it.

    On other MMOs it wont have much if any impact. They already know that vanilla Wow was popular, a successful vanilla serversetting would have no impact on ESO or GW2 no matter what. If it do badly it would prove that people think a 13 year old game are dated, that doesn't help anyone either.

    At best Blizzard will change things because of it and that is just if it does extremely good or bad.

    I agree,  

    My OP is a lot of wishful thinking.  A lot more than Vanilla WoW would have to happen.  

    However the wishful thinking could become a reality.  I'm not totally up to speed on upcoming but I do know 3 games with social interaction in the future. 

    Pantheon Rise of the Fallen, Ashes of Creation and Saga of Lucimia.... Let's hope their quality games and not broken.  This along with a popular Vanilla WoW could turn some tables.
     

    I also believe their will be a World of Warcraft 2 someday.  After all Blizzard is an established company that wouldn't allow a fading existence when numbers start dropping.  
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,055
    iixviiiix said:
    I interact with other players daily in all my MMOs, old and new.

    What those older games did is to FORCE people by using FORCED grouping. That kind of mechanics will never be popular again, because player like choice, they don't like to be forced down a single road.

    And unless you're antisocial, nobody needs to be FORCED to interact. Social people will do it naturally.
    Wasn't people still being FORCED grouping in nowadays game ?

    "that kind of mechanics will never be popular again" ? lol , they now standard FORCED to solo few level then get FORCED to grouping to do instances then again get FORCED to solo .
    "Never be popular again" ? funny .
    Nowadays when you log into a MMORPG, you are definitely NOT forced to find a group. You have plenty of activities to engage solo, if, for ANY reason, you don't feel like grouping right now.

    You are never forced to solo. You can group to clear solo content. As opposed to not being able to solo group content.

    And before you answer to this, think twice... the OP mentions "social interaction". I just don't buy that logic that the only MMORPGs with social interactions are those which force(d) grouping. I never have, I never will. Being social has NEVER meant grouping with 4, 9 , 19 or 39 other nerds in order to bash some mobs because you have no other choice.
    You disagree with OP is one thing , what you said about forced grouping is another .
    Most people here had solo in older games and have to use LFG/LFR to do WOW clones instance contents . It mean FORCED group still here and a chose to solo existent in older game .

  • skadadskadad Member UncommonPosts: 392
    The get x/kill x quests are done faster solo then coordinating with a group. Solo killing is usually faster exp nowadays etc. If this was not the case, more people would group up. If the fastest/easiest way is to solo, people will solo. All people are lazy more or less :P 
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,294
    I think the official vanilla WoW servers will only help to highlight that vanilla WoW got lucky, rather than actually being a good game. 

    It suffers from the same problems as all other themeparks that use vertical progression - your community is constantly segregated, making it harder and harder to work together. The only reason WoW got away with it compared to competitors is due to it's size - it doesn't matter if you segment your community as long as each segment is large enough to support itself. I think that within a few months of launch, the community will not be large enough to support lots of grouping during leveling so all you'll have is the endgame crowd. 


    So, I think what you'll find is a bunch of old-school WoW players who go over with their guilds and enjoy the game within their little circle of friends, plus a bunch of random people who are curious about vanilla WoW who will give it a shot before quickly moving on. 
    ArglebargleJean-Luc_PicardMrMelGibson
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 489
    edited December 2017
    Blizzard announced that it will be releasing a 2004 version of Vanilla World of Warcraft.  

    This news stirs a lot of controversy on how popular it will be.  Some say temporary nostalgia, some say they will play it for ever, and everything in between........ My opinion, this doesn't need to be discussed or debated.  In fact if one were to think about it, It doesn't matter, Blizzard will always adjust server size where everyone will be happy regardless.  



    The real topic: 
    Will it be studied ?..... Will marketing take a step back and say " people like to interact and make communities" ? 

    After all Blizzard created a narrative campaign that everything should be auto-handed to the player with the assumption of "capturing everyone" from 6 to 60.  

    I'll admit, capturing everyone isn't a bad idea ON PAPER !.....But did it work ?  

    All other mmorpgs followed this campaign, keeping a blind eye that it's best to follow the money (Blizzard)....But did this work ?

      

    Important: 
    It's impossible to chart !!!....... Something that worked STOPPED, then re-tooled differently with no turning back and forced. 
     
    How can you gage "then vs. now"  if now is fixated and absolute ?.......Forced is a harsh word, I hate using it, but that's what happened, capture everyone. 

    6 million players..... Could it have been 12 million ?....... It's impossible to chart the unknown!  

      

    I hope Vanilla will prove something to the close minded executives that marketing can't reach into the souls of players.  If not we have Pantheon Rise of the Fallen, Ashes of Creation and Saga of Lucimia.... Let's hope their quality games and not broken.  
    I agree. I hope it works! And for the record, I intentionally played Alganon because it's supposed to be like vanilla WoW. And even though it's not Everquest and it's casual by comparison, I still had some fun with it. I want to see vanilla WoW do well just so that people like us get a larger voice, or at least not dismissed altogether. I don't think it'll redefine the industry or bring in millions of players, however. What it does is gives players more options in their choices. You can play a server YOU favor, rather than being pigeonholed onto a one-size-fits-all schemed server.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,528
    btdt said:
    The main flaw in your thesis is the belief that social interaction will return with vanilla WoW... 

    Social interaction can occur now in any game at any time should the players deem such interaction worthwhile.  The lack of LFG tools didn't promote such interaction, it was a product of the times.  

    The internet was new.  The concept of even talking to someone online was new.  There wasn't a plethora of information out there about every nook and cranny of the game, so players had to rely on each other.

    The internet is not new anymore.  Most games are dissected before they are even released.  MMO-Champion broadcasts every little detail they can datamine, players with access to beta write copious wikis about what they see and do.  It took quite some time for said information to be disseminated in the past, now it happens in almost real-time.

    So no, vanilla WoW reboot won't prove anything about the need for social interaction because that occurred without any input on Blizzards part.  And it is why it will or will not happen only if YOU make it happen.

    You choose to go to a Bar and gather with friends.  You choose to stay home and read a book alone.  You choose to watch the game with friends.  You choose to watch it alone.  You choose to text someone that you are at a stop light waiting for the light to change.  You choose to not text anyone at all.

    More people than not were enamored with the whole idea of communicating with complete strangers from around the world back then than they are now.  Social interaction is a function of choice, not design.

    You want social interaction?  You make it happen.  You don't want to make it happen, it's not going to happen on it's own.  You're playing with a bunch of people that don't have anything to say to you... out of choice, not design.  
    I agree with this.  A return to the vanilla version of WoW won't automatically impart some social impetus on the players.  Social interactions are independent from WoW.  If anything, a successful vanilla WoW only proves the existence of a nostalgia-driven section of players.  That might be beneficial to several upcoming games more than Blizzard.

    I wondered a bit when I first heard Blizzard's plan to release a vanilla version of WoW.  The most interesting thing I thought of was a version of the WoW engine, with classes, skills and combat at some specific level, but with completely new lore as its core.  Instead of producing WoW circa 2005, there would be a brand new game world to explore.  That might be the best of all worlds, and might actually encourage the social contacts the OP was asking for due to the new lore pretty much invalidating all the spoiler sites.  (For awhile, anyway)

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,906
    I interact with other players daily in all my MMOs, old and new.

    What those older games did is to FORCE people by using FORCED grouping. That kind of mechanics will never be popular again, because player like choice, they don't like to be forced down a single road.

    And unless you're antisocial, nobody needs to be FORCED to interact. Social people will do it naturally.
    I need to be forced, or at least motivated to be social based on working towards common goals.

    I don't naturally interact with others so an assist from the game's mechanics is welcome in my case.


    MrMelGibsonGhavrigg

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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