Hideo Kojima on Game Development time

Babuinix · December 2017

IGN published an interview with Hideo Kojima (Metal Gear Solid) to speak about is new work in progress game Death Stranding and he got this to say about people complaining about it taking too much time.

Image: https://images.nowloading.co/images/c_limit,q_auto:good,w_600/cpu1gioju0ieuvjdfjgo/did-westworld-just-give-us-a-new-hint-about-what-hideo-kojima-is-planning-for-death-stranding.jpg

“There’s been a lot of stuff going on through this time, so it makes me pretty sad when people say ‘Oh, you’re just having fun and joking around and wasting money.’ You could ask so many people, but I really think that I’m doing this pretty fast. If you have a company, if you already have an engine, you already have the tools and the team together, and even then, it’s pretty standard for a AAA game to take three to five years to develop their games. For some games, it can take up to 10 years.” HK

I guess it relates a lot with Star Citizen as it's also an highly ambitious game made from a studio formed from scratch, but instead of having players as backers it's Sony backing it.

That games take time is basic knowledge to anyone that understands game development, but most of gamers are not aware of such complexities, they just want to play games and have fun. That's why crowdfunding games and following their development should be made with extra awareness of such intricacies of game development. They should be taken as learning lessons and not frustration exercises

Image: http://newmediarockstars.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/star-citizen-1.jpg

There you have it!

WalkinGlenn · December 2017

Well there you have it. LOL

This train wreak (Star Citizen) isnt from scratch they wwre using CryEngine. No matter how someone will try and argue about the changes they made to the engine, they cant play the from scratch card. If anything they (CIG) should have been in a better position than someone developing an engine from nothing.

There, fixed.

/end thread

Babuinix · December 2017

WalkinGlenn said:

Well there you have it. LOL

This train wreak isnt from scratch. No matter how someone will try and argue about the changes they made to the engine, they cant play the from scratch card. If anything they should have been in a better position than someone developing an engine from nothing.

Nice of you to walk by Glenn, tell me, who exactly are referring to when you say "developed an engine from nothing"?

rojoArcueid · December 2017

SC hasn't fully launched not because its incomplete, but because CR saw how good it feels to make so much money selling concept art. When they stop making money then they will release the game to a different audience for more money.

Just my opinion. Its hard not to think thats what they are doing with SC.

Kyleran · December 2017

10 years seems a bit long for game development, that rivals the time to produce an entirely new auto design.

Even if true, I have no problem with that timeframe if the developer is honest up front and tells this to the stakeholders beforehand.

My guess is Sony isn't going to be very understanding if original estimates balloon from 2 to 8 or more years, nor should crowd funding backers.

Worse is the practice of quoting an original optimistic estimate, which after missing these devs see no obligation to publish a revised date.

They go into a never ending cycle of reporting on accomplishments without ever addressing the most important question, what is the new target release date and what is the probability of meeting it?

This isn't just a SC issue, or restricted to indies, AAA studios fail at this far too often as well.

Babuinix · December 2017

rojoArcueid said:

SC hasn't fully launched not because its incomplete, but because CR saw how good it feels to make so much money selling concept art. When they stop making money then they will release the game to a different audience for more money.

Just my opinion. Its hard not to think thats what they are doing with SC.

If Chris Roberts only cares about "how good it feels to make so much money selling concept art" why did he opened 4 Studios and employ's 400+ people around the world?

Couldn't he just license the work to chinese artists that charge way less than USA/EU artists?

Why the heck is he spending time and money re-doing old ship's to make them better quality when he already sold them before? Shouldn't he "waste" that time doing more concept art to sell fresh?

Why is he modelling these ship's in 3D and adding damage states, cargo, interact-able turrets, doors, cockpits and what not? Shouldn't he just do the "outside" of them just like all the other games do?

Damn these Roberst guy must be the worst scam artist there is, dumb mofo could have launched a half asset basic phew phew game in space and keep all that money, instead he just keeps on building it bigger and better. Worst Scam Artist Ever.

Bloodaxes · December 2017

I mean, this isn't the first time he had a game (Freelancer) and took way too long due to wanting everything in it.

Goodluck nonetheless on his new game.

Mendel · December 2017

Babuinix said:

IGN published an interview with Hideo Kojima (Metal Gear Solid) to speak about is new work in progress game Death Stranding and he got this to say about people complaining about it taking too much time.

“There’s been a lot of stuff going on through this time, so it makes me pretty sad when people say ‘Oh, you’re just having fun and joking around and wasting money.’ You could ask so many people, but I really think that I’m doing this pretty fast. If you have a company, if you already have an engine, you already have the tools and the team together, and even then, it’s pretty standard for a AAA game to take three to five years to develop their games. For some games, it can take up to 10 years.” HK
I guess it relates a lot with Star Citizen as it's also an highly ambitious game made from a studio formed from scratch, but instead of having players as backers it's Sony backing it.
That games take time is basic knowledge to anyone that understands game development, but most of gamers are not aware of such complexities, they just want to play games and have fun. That's why crowdfunding games and following their development should be made with extra awareness of such intricacies of game development. They should be taken as learning lessons and not frustration exercises
There you have it!

Why do I feel like someone is trying to talk down to me? Games take time. So does BBQ. Gamers are not some imbecilic segment of society that has no understanding of the effort involved with developing any software product.

Shaigh · December 2017

Using that logic star citizen will release in 2022 since its the biggest gaming project ever.

CrazKanuk · December 2017

Kyleran said:

10 years seems a bit long for game development, that rivals the time to produce an entirely new auto design.

Even if true, I have no problem with that timeframe if the developer is honest up front and tells this to the stakeholders beforehand.

My guess is Sony isn't going to be very understanding if original estimates balloon from 2 to 8 or more years, nor should crowd funding backers.

Worse is the practice of quoting an original optimistic estimate, which after missing these devs see no obligation to publish a revised date.

They go into a never ending cycle of reporting on accomplishments without ever addressing the most important question, what is the new target release date and what is the probability of meeting it?

This isn't just a SC issue, or restricted to indies, AAA studios fail at this far too often as well.

Well Cyberpunk 2077 references can be found as far back as January 2011, which means it was likely in development prior to that even. There has still been no mention of a release date, but people are saying 2020 or 2021.

So I wouldn't necessarily say that a 10 year development is a bit long. You might consider it to be uncommon, but who knows, it could be more common than you or I think. You telling me it takes 10 years to design a new auto makes me think that's too long. However, what do I know, right? To me, it seems like all the same features with a couple different crimps in the metal.

MaxBacon · December 2017

Independent of all the sea of opinions on the internet on SC, what Kojima says it's not wrong.

It goes from Ubisoft with Assassin's Creed, or EA with FIFA or even the new Battlefront IP, or Bungie with Destiny, capable to doing new titles quickly just re-using the same game engine and do more of the same, to Star Citizen where its ambition forces a hell of technology work lasting years to be able to support what they want to do with it, obviously the harder and longer approach to it.

Talonsin · December 2017

Babuinix said:

IGN published an interview with Hideo Kojima (Metal Gear Solid) to speak about is new work in progress game Death Stranding and he got this to say about people complaining about it taking too much time.

“There’s been a lot of stuff going on through this time, so it makes me pretty sad when people say ‘Oh, you’re just having fun and joking around and wasting money.’ You could ask so many people, but I really think that I’m doing this pretty fast. If you have a company, if you already have an engine, you already have the tools and the team together, and even then, it’s pretty standard for a AAA game to take three to five years to develop their games. For some games, it can take up to 10 years.” HK
I guess it relates a lot with Star Citizen as it's also an highly ambitious game made from a studio formed from scratch, but instead of having players as backers it's Sony backing it.
That games take time is basic knowledge to anyone that understands game development, but most of gamers are not aware of such complexities, they just want to play games and have fun. That's why crowdfunding games and following their development should be made with extra awareness of such intricacies of game development. They should be taken as learning lessons and not frustration exercises
There you have it!

Apples and oranges buddy

Hideo Kojima has a boss he reports to while Chris does not. Mr. Kojima can not sit back and make a ton of mistakes and then make excuses to his boss but Chris is free to do what he wants. That is why we now have offices in 4 countries and massive underestimations of development goals like "SQ42 to be released end of 2016" and here we are a year later and still not one video of a mission has been shown. Source: https://www.pcgamesn.com/star-citizen/squadron-42-release-date

The truth is, Chris and Ortwin know that once the game releases, the money will dry up. If you can earn everything in the game like fans say you can, there will be little need to buy ships and land plots and the other things they will be selling in their cash shop. The majority of people interested in the game have already purchased it and there is not supposed to be a sub fee. So why not sit back and take your time and ride that money train as long as possible?

MaxBacon · December 2017

Talonsin said:
The truth is, Chris and Ortwin know that once the game releases, the money will dry up. If you can earn everything in the game like fans say you can, there will be little need to buy ships and land plots and the other things they will be selling in their cash shop. The majority of people interested in the game have already purchased it and there is not supposed to be a sub fee. So why not sit back and take your time and ride that money train as long as possible?

Truth is your biased opinion that is. Majority of released MMO's prove you wrong on that, things you can earn that are also sold is one of the mainstream revenue models of this industry for a long time. And they work. You want to make SC the special case that won't work for them but works for everyone else cause reasons. K. Always the same "tunnel-vision" argument, maybe it's me having been working on marketing and business strategy myself, idk about you.

Babuinix · December 2017

Talonsin said:

Babuinix said:

IGN published an interview with Hideo Kojima (Metal Gear Solid) to speak about is new work in progress game Death Stranding and he got this to say about people complaining about it taking too much time.

“There’s been a lot of stuff going on through this time, so it makes me pretty sad when people say ‘Oh, you’re just having fun and joking around and wasting money.’ You could ask so many people, but I really think that I’m doing this pretty fast. If you have a company, if you already have an engine, you already have the tools and the team together, and even then, it’s pretty standard for a AAA game to take three to five years to develop their games. For some games, it can take up to 10 years.” HK
I guess it relates a lot with Star Citizen as it's also an highly ambitious game made from a studio formed from scratch, but instead of having players as backers it's Sony backing it.
That games take time is basic knowledge to anyone that understands game development, but most of gamers are not aware of such complexities, they just want to play games and have fun. That's why crowdfunding games and following their development should be made with extra awareness of such intricacies of game development. They should be taken as learning lessons and not frustration exercises
There you have it!

Apples and oranges buddy

Hideo Kojima has a boss he reports to while Chris does not. Mr. Kojima can not sit back and make a ton of mistakes and then make excuses to his boss but Chris is free to do what he wants. That is why we now have offices in 4 countries and massive underestimations of development goals like "SQ42 to be released end of 2016" and here we are a year later and still not one video of a mission has been shown. Source: https://www.pcgamesn.com/star-citizen/squadron-42-release-date

The truth is, Chris and Ortwin know that once the game releases, the money will dry up. If you can earn everything in the game like fans say you can, there will be little need to buy ships and land plots and the other things they will be selling in their cash shop. The majority of people interested in the game have already purchased it and there is not supposed to be a sub fee. So why not sit back and take your time and ride that money train as long as possible?

Sorry buddy but it was never your call. Nobody forced you to spend money in a crowdfunded project, were out of tissues here, go cry somewhere else.

MadFrenchie · December 2017

MaxBacon said:

Talonsin said:
The truth is, Chris and Ortwin know that once the game releases, the money will dry up. If you can earn everything in the game like fans say you can, there will be little need to buy ships and land plots and the other things they will be selling in their cash shop. The majority of people interested in the game have already purchased it and there is not supposed to be a sub fee. So why not sit back and take your time and ride that money train as long as possible?

Truth is your biased opinion that is. Majority of released MMO's prove you wrong on that, things you can earn that are also sold is one of the mainstream revenue models of this industry for a long time. And they work. You want to make SC the special case that won't work for them but works for everyone else cause reasons. K. Always the same "tunnel-vision" argument, maybe it's me having been working on marketing and business strategy myself, idk about you.

Think his prediction has to do with the fact that SC is going to stop selling ships upon release, which is their biggest money maker currently.

SC has to find another set of items that will make them that much revenue after launch (well, a comparable amount, as we would assume costs to maintain won't be as much as costs to create). It's not an unwarranted concern. What else will you sell for hundreds of dollars a pop in a space opera that folks will continue buying, specifically when they can, in fact, earn it in game?

Orinori · December 2017

Majority of funds come from new players buying basic starter ships, that won't change for launch, in fact for a good while after launch that should intensify dramatically.

Following all that there will still be microtransactions and a capped purchase of UEE in game currency.

p.s I didn't see so much prediction as much as I saw projection.

some-clueless-guy · December 2017

Confirmation bias.

You can have to people with diametrically opposite views on a subject read a snippet of news regarding that subject and each of them will tell you that what the news are saying confirm his point of view.

When I read the OP I think "Here is a game developer who has the right to be late, unlike others..." but instead it seems it tells the opposite. I follow SC development sporadically mostly to see "how far" they got this time, so until now I though I was unbiased on this subject, does my interpretation of that interview related to SC make me a SC-hater? I didn't know I was until now it seems...

Babuinix · December 2017

Why people care about how much money a companies makes? Only thing that matters it's that the game keeps on being developed with meaningful content.

I know, I know, it hurts your insides seeing Star Citizen and CIG developing the game. tough luck, it's not forum gibberish that will put a hold on that.

alkarionlog · December 2017

CrazKanuk said:

Kyleran said:

10 years seems a bit long for game development, that rivals the time to produce an entirely new auto design.

Even if true, I have no problem with that timeframe if the developer is honest up front and tells this to the stakeholders beforehand.

My guess is Sony isn't going to be very understanding if original estimates balloon from 2 to 8 or more years, nor should crowd funding backers.

Worse is the practice of quoting an original optimistic estimate, which after missing these devs see no obligation to publish a revised date.

They go into a never ending cycle of reporting on accomplishments without ever addressing the most important question, what is the new target release date and what is the probability of meeting it?

This isn't just a SC issue, or restricted to indies, AAA studios fail at this far too often as well.

Well Cyberpunk 2077 references can be found as far back as January 2011, which means it was likely in development prior to that even. There has still been no mention of a release date, but people are saying 2020 or 2021.

So I wouldn't necessarily say that a 10 year development is a bit long. You might consider it to be uncommon, but who knows, it could be more common than you or I think. You telling me it takes 10 years to design a new auto makes me think that's too long. However, what do I know, right? To me, it seems like all the same features with a couple different crimps in the metal.

I don't remember they openning a kickstarter campaign for the cyberpunk game

also that is really not the same, both for kojima and project red, kojima at least have some games in his past who tell us who he is , project red tehr eis the witcher series and they are not asking for gamers money before teh game is ready, hell even igarashi who is making that castlevania like game gave more things for players, and updates then star citizen, and its should be ready already.

but I find it funny the game defender are so damn scared of the bad rep and lack of any game tehy use any kind of excuse to say we shouldn't question they religi.... I mean game

Wizardry · December 2017

I understand the time frame and i can judge based on what i see and imo SC has looked like it's run by an amateur.

SC is not yet even close to being a fully fledged MMORPG type game,not close.I truly beleive he is stuck in a position where he cannot release because his product will be laughable compared to the amount of money sunk into it.

I mention money because time doesn't mean anything if you have a team of 3 versus a team of 300,obviously the time will differ greatly,that is why i weigh in money versus product.

IMO SC is soo bad as of right this very minute,there is about 5 million worth of work there yet they have received well over 100 million,so where has all that money gone?There have been many speculations and employees talking about wasting tons of time and money making marketing videos and spending too much time on rendering videos for the game etc etc.

Right this minute i would give the game as is a 2/10,i don't want to play it even for 5 minutes,so even a 1/10 is justified.So how many more 100 millions will it take to get this game to a 6/10?It just looks so bad that idk how he ever releases it,he will look bad in the end no matter what.

Talonsin · December 2017

Babuinix said:

Talonsin said:

Babuinix said:

IGN published an interview with Hideo Kojima (Metal Gear Solid) to speak about is new work in progress game Death Stranding and he got this to say about people complaining about it taking too much time.

“There’s been a lot of stuff going on through this time, so it makes me pretty sad when people say ‘Oh, you’re just having fun and joking around and wasting money.’ You could ask so many people, but I really think that I’m doing this pretty fast. If you have a company, if you already have an engine, you already have the tools and the team together, and even then, it’s pretty standard for a AAA game to take three to five years to develop their games. For some games, it can take up to 10 years.” HK
I guess it relates a lot with Star Citizen as it's also an highly ambitious game made from a studio formed from scratch, but instead of having players as backers it's Sony backing it.
That games take time is basic knowledge to anyone that understands game development, but most of gamers are not aware of such complexities, they just want to play games and have fun. That's why crowdfunding games and following their development should be made with extra awareness of such intricacies of game development. They should be taken as learning lessons and not frustration exercises
There you have it!

Apples and oranges buddy

Hideo Kojima has a boss he reports to while Chris does not. Mr. Kojima can not sit back and make a ton of mistakes and then make excuses to his boss but Chris is free to do what he wants. That is why we now have offices in 4 countries and massive underestimations of development goals like "SQ42 to be released end of 2016" and here we are a year later and still not one video of a mission has been shown. Source: https://www.pcgamesn.com/star-citizen/squadron-42-release-date

The truth is, Chris and Ortwin know that once the game releases, the money will dry up. If you can earn everything in the game like fans say you can, there will be little need to buy ships and land plots and the other things they will be selling in their cash shop. The majority of people interested in the game have already purchased it and there is not supposed to be a sub fee. So why not sit back and take your time and ride that money train as long as possible?

Sorry buddy but it was never your call. Nobody forced you to spend money in a crowdfunded project, were out of tissues here, go cry somewhere else.

Nice deflection there! Can you show me where I said anything about backing this project or that someone forced me to spend money on it in that post?

What? You cant... oh then maybe you should go cry somewhere because your deflection tactic was pitiful.

CrazKanuk · December 2017

alkarionlog said:

CrazKanuk said:

Kyleran said:

10 years seems a bit long for game development, that rivals the time to produce an entirely new auto design.

Even if true, I have no problem with that timeframe if the developer is honest up front and tells this to the stakeholders beforehand.

My guess is Sony isn't going to be very understanding if original estimates balloon from 2 to 8 or more years, nor should crowd funding backers.

Worse is the practice of quoting an original optimistic estimate, which after missing these devs see no obligation to publish a revised date.

They go into a never ending cycle of reporting on accomplishments without ever addressing the most important question, what is the new target release date and what is the probability of meeting it?

This isn't just a SC issue, or restricted to indies, AAA studios fail at this far too often as well.

Well Cyberpunk 2077 references can be found as far back as January 2011, which means it was likely in development prior to that even. There has still been no mention of a release date, but people are saying 2020 or 2021.

So I wouldn't necessarily say that a 10 year development is a bit long. You might consider it to be uncommon, but who knows, it could be more common than you or I think. You telling me it takes 10 years to design a new auto makes me think that's too long. However, what do I know, right? To me, it seems like all the same features with a couple different crimps in the metal.

I don't remember they openning a kickstarter campaign for the cyberpunk game

also that is really not the same, both for kojima and project red, kojima at least have some games in his past who tell us who he is , project red tehr eis the witcher series and they are not asking for gamers money before teh game is ready, hell even igarashi who is making that castlevania like game gave more things for players, and updates then star citizen, and its should be ready already.

but I find it funny the game defender are so damn scared of the bad rep and lack of any game tehy use any kind of excuse to say we shouldn't question they religi.... I mean game

Ok, ok, ok. What was the question? Or are you just here looking for a fight? The statement was that 10 years seems a bit long for a game development. I actually AGREED!!! Yes, I did say it's not unheard of, but I also said that it is uncommon. [mod edit]

Octagon7711 · December 2017

Babuinix said:

rojoArcueid said:

SC hasn't fully launched not because its incomplete, but because CR saw how good it feels to make so much money selling concept art. When they stop making money then they will release the game to a different audience for more money.

Just my opinion. Its hard not to think thats what they are doing with SC.

If Chris Roberts only cares about "how good it feels to make so much money selling concept art" why did he opened 4 Studios and employ's 400+ people around the world?

Couldn't he just license the work to chinese artists that charge way less than USA/EU artists?

Why the heck is he spending time and money re-doing old ship's to make them better quality when he already sold them before? Shouldn't he "waste" that time doing more concept art to sell fresh?

Why is he modelling these ship's in 3D and adding damage states, cargo, interact-able turrets, doors, cockpits and what not? Shouldn't he just do the "outside" of them just like all the other games do?

Damn these Roberst guy must be the worst scam artist there is, dumb mofo could have launched a half asset basic phew phew game in space and keep all that money, instead he just keeps on building it bigger and better. Worst Scam Artist Ever.

It could be he enjoys the power of it all. He could have opened an office at one location and did everything from there but it's more fun flying to different countries and micromanaging as much as the budget can handle. You give someone millions of dollars with little accountability and see what happens.

One problem with multiple offices working on the same project at different locations is that everyone works differently and at the end of the day it's a lot harder to make everything work the way it's supposed to when it's coming from hundreds of people with different backgrounds in different parts of the word. Which is why forming a global creative company is not something most businesses starting out for the fist time jump into right away.

IMO.

Grakulen · December 2017

He has earned the right to take as much time as he wants.

Babuinix · December 2017

Octagon7711 said:

Babuinix said:

rojoArcueid said:

SC hasn't fully launched not because its incomplete, but because CR saw how good it feels to make so much money selling concept art. When they stop making money then they will release the game to a different audience for more money.

Just my opinion. Its hard not to think thats what they are doing with SC.

If Chris Roberts only cares about "how good it feels to make so much money selling concept art" why did he opened 4 Studios and employ's 400+ people around the world?

Couldn't he just license the work to chinese artists that charge way less than USA/EU artists?

Why the heck is he spending time and money re-doing old ship's to make them better quality when he already sold them before? Shouldn't he "waste" that time doing more concept art to sell fresh?

Why is he modelling these ship's in 3D and adding damage states, cargo, interact-able turrets, doors, cockpits and what not? Shouldn't he just do the "outside" of them just like all the other games do?

Damn these Roberst guy must be the worst scam artist there is, dumb mofo could have launched a half asset basic phew phew game in space and keep all that money, instead he just keeps on building it bigger and better. Worst Scam Artist Ever.

It could be he enjoys the power of it all. He could have opened an office at one location and did everything from there but it's more fun flying to different countries and micromanaging as much as the budget can handle. You give someone millions of dollars with little accountability and see what happens.

One problem with multiple offices working on the same project at different locations is that everyone works differently and at the end of the day it's a lot harder to make everything work the way it's supposed to when it's coming from hundreds of people with different backgrounds in different parts of the word. Which is why forming a global creative company is not something most businesses starting out for the fist time jump into right away.

IMO.

Nah he really couldn't, he went where the talent was. Game Dev is a very small, competitive and fast burning industry. Getting talent in the US is extremely hard and expensive compared with Europe and ofc Eastern Countries / Asia.

He's not flying across the world leaving family (kids) behind for weeks because he "enjoys micromanaging". UK office opened because his brother already had a team there who agreed to join the project, German Studio opened there because a big pool of Crytek talent became available there.

It's less expensive to open studios there (Europe) and get talent over there than in the US.

Yes organizing everything to run smooth is hard work but as time goes they get more and more oiled up and the fact that they have people working in different timezones allows for that 24h work.

CIG and Star Citizen is not like "most business starting". The community ensured that they have the capacity to scale up and push their efforts to make the game they all dream.

Grakulen said:

He has earned the right to take as much time as he wants.

Exactly, Same as Chris Roberts.

Kyleran · December 2017

Grakulen said:

He has earned the right to take as much time as he wants.

Wait, what? Earned the "right?" How do you figure that?

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Hideo Kojima on Game Development time

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Hideo Kojima on Game Development time

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV