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New Zealand - Loot Boxes Not Legally Gambling, UK May Beg to Differ - MMORPG.com News

SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,126
edited December 2017 in News & Features Discussion

imageNew Zealand - Loot Boxes Not Legally Gambling, UK May Beg to Differ - MMORPG.com News

Showing the volatility of the "loot boxes as gambling" issue, New Zealand and the United Kingdom seem to be at odds with one another. New Zealand's Gambling Compliance Office is of the opinion that loot boxes do not meet the legal definition of gambling. The UK Gambling Commission is taking a different tack and honing in on third-party sites that let "children as young as 11 wager weapon skins for real money" and thereby explosing them to gambling.

Read the full story here



¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


«13

Comments

  • sayuusayuu Member RarePosts: 756
    loot boxes and CS:GO skin gambling are not the same thing. . .

    apples and oranges. . .
    KyleranTorvalScarran
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,071
    edited December 2017
    Think of the children being explosed to gambling...
    RoinKyleranAeanderAlomar
  • OsmioeggOsmioegg Member CommonPosts: 1
    More like North America apple vs South America apple.
    Loot boxes are gambling period.
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 5,750
    The only real question is "how much lobbying money did they receive?"
    KyleranScotIselinTacticalZombeh
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,156
    edited December 2017

    sayuu said:

    loot boxes and CS:GO skin gambling are not the same thing. . .



    apples and oranges. . .



    Agreed, this article is present a very specious comparison of these two things, with one clearly being a gambling issue.

    Good article here for those unfamiliar with skin gambling

    http://www.pcgamer.com/csgo-skin-gambling/

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,156
    Gdemami said:
    Think of the children being explosed to gambling...
    While your comment is mocking, I've read several recent stories about how the UK is going through a bit of a gambling addiction crisis and offshore betting figures highly in the debate, hence their focus on these activities especially where children are involved.
    TorvalBruceYee

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 5,750
    edited December 2017
    Gdemami said:
    Think of the children being explosed to gambling...
    I know you are intending to mock, but it is, at least in the U.S., illegal to expose those under the age of 21 to gambling. Similar laws exist in other first world countries.

    I know you lack the requisite understanding to comprehend this, but this isn't even a debate on the morality of underage gambling. It's a debate on whether or not paid lootboxes fall under already existing regulations.
    BruceYee
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Aeander said:
    Gdemami said:
    Think of the children being explosed to gambling...
    I know you are intending to mock, but it is, at least in the U.S., illegal to expose those under the age of 21 to gambling. Similar laws exist in other first world countries.

    I know you lack the requisite understanding to comprehend this, but this isn't even a debate on the morality of underage gambling. It's a debate on whether or not paid lootboxes fall under already existing regulations.

    Do you know that the intent was mocking? What was he mocking? It doesn't sound like you got it. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484
    DMKano said:
    The issue is education.

    So I say lets turn this issue upside down.

    Teach about gambling and addiction n schools, alongside  probability and statistics as well as basic money mangement.

    Give kids a chance - pun intended ;)



    They did all this when I went to school. Now they don't even teach geography, civics, or economics. When my daughter went to school her curriculum was useless. How do you tell your kid they're teaching her garbage? Now she has children and it's even worse. My son is homeschooling his kids. 

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,119
    edited December 2017
    DMKano said:
    The issue is education.

    So I say lets turn this issue upside down.

    Teach about gambling and addiction n schools, alongside  probability and statistics as well as basic money mangement.

    Give kids a chance - pun intended ;)


    This is why all games including "Arche Age" "Overwatch" need to come with a warning on the box about compulsive gambling at least, and Education in school wouldn't be too bad the funny thing about America, in general, is that.

    1.) The Laws are different everywhere, but they expect you to know them even if you are not a Lawyer and break something simple something they should have taught in school.

    2.) They should teach more life stuff in School too but they don't things like why compulsive gambling is bad.

    But the thing about American Schools they don't instead if you go to a public school they let you sit around for at least an hour a day doing, in reality, nothing if you want and don't care this includes bullying and heck its easy to get people suspended given every time bullying takes place the teacher just happens to be outside the Classroom at the time...

    American public school lacks so much education in things when it comes to life skills, and so on an 8-year-old can learn much more off the internet, and YouTube of good or bad things that they can with go to school in a day.

    The thing about Education, Schools cut cost on things like Security, and Staff, and this is why so many things happen like we have to read about on the news because the school cut both staff and security and then bad things happen.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Renoaku said:
    DMKano said:
    The issue is education.

    So I say lets turn this issue upside down.

    Teach about gambling and addiction n schools, alongside  probability and statistics as well as basic money mangement.

    Give kids a chance - pun intended ;)


    This is why all games including "Arche Age" "Overwatch" need to come with a warning on the box about compulsive gambling at least, and Education in school wouldn't be too bad the funny thing about America, in general, is that.

    1.) The Laws are different everywhere, but they expect you to know them even if you are not a Lawyer and break something simple something they should have taught in school.

    2.) They should teach more life stuff in School too but they don't things like why compulsive gambling is bad.

    But the thing about American Schools they don't instead if you go to a public school they let you sit around for at least an hour a day doing, in reality, nothing if you want and don't care this includes bullying and heck its easy to get people suspended given every time bullying takes place the teacher just happens to be outside the Classroom at the time...

    American public school lacks so much education in things when it comes to life skills, and so on an 8-year-old can learn much more off the internet, and YouTube of good or bad things that they can with go to school in a day.

    The thing about Education, Schools cut cost on things like Security, and Staff, and this is why so many things happen like we have to read about on the news because the school cut both staff and security and then bad things happen.

    So you are saying that violent video games teach violence?

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 5,750
    CrazKanuk said:
    Renoaku said:
    DMKano said:
    The issue is education.

    So I say lets turn this issue upside down.

    Teach about gambling and addiction n schools, alongside  probability and statistics as well as basic money mangement.

    Give kids a chance - pun intended ;)


    This is why all games including "Arche Age" "Overwatch" need to come with a warning on the box about compulsive gambling at least, and Education in school wouldn't be too bad the funny thing about America, in general, is that.

    1.) The Laws are different everywhere, but they expect you to know them even if you are not a Lawyer and break something simple something they should have taught in school.

    2.) They should teach more life stuff in School too but they don't things like why compulsive gambling is bad.

    But the thing about American Schools they don't instead if you go to a public school they let you sit around for at least an hour a day doing, in reality, nothing if you want and don't care this includes bullying and heck its easy to get people suspended given every time bullying takes place the teacher just happens to be outside the Classroom at the time...

    American public school lacks so much education in things when it comes to life skills, and so on an 8-year-old can learn much more off the internet, and YouTube of good or bad things that they can with go to school in a day.

    The thing about Education, Schools cut cost on things like Security, and Staff, and this is why so many things happen like we have to read about on the news because the school cut both staff and security and then bad things happen.

    So you are saying that violent video games teach violence?
    There is a profound difference. Violence in gaming is an unrealistic, usually exaggerated simulation.

    Gambling in games has also been used as a simulation, when in unpaid form (ie: the casinos in Pokemon games), and this has never been a significant problem. The problem is that lootboxes aren't a simulation of gambling; because you are paying real money for a randomized reward, you are effectively engaging in the real thing.
    Gdemami
  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,211

    sayuu said:

    loot boxes and CS:GO skin gambling are not the same thing. . .



    apples and oranges. . .



    Actually, the definition would apply to both evenly. The only issue in dispute is whether the items have value... and if they do, then both would meet the definition of gambling.
  • HeraseHerase Member RarePosts: 993
    DMKano said:


    I am a firm believer that instead of trying to put kids in a glass bubble to protect them from the real world - educate them instead, give them knowledge and skills to deal with the real world.


    I would agree, but teaching them won't mean anything if lootboxes do't fall under anything. If it doesn't fall under the "legal definition" of gambling or something, in the eyes of a child, heck even adults, it gives the impression that there's nothing wrong with them and that's just how the games meant to be played.

    Mix in that the fact the money they spend is very small, say £1 - £5, it wont seem like they're spending or mismanaging money.

    It only takes someone doing a few times before they're addicted and once they are, no amount of education can fix that. 


    Gdemami
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,119
    edited December 2017
    CrazKanuk said:
    Renoaku said:
    DMKano said:
    The issue is education.

    So I say lets turn this issue upside down.

    Teach about gambling and addiction n schools, alongside  probability and statistics as well as basic money mangement.

    Give kids a chance - pun intended ;)


    This is why all games including "Arche Age" "Overwatch" need to come with a warning on the box about compulsive gambling at least, and Education in school wouldn't be too bad the funny thing about America, in general, is that.

    1.) The Laws are different everywhere, but they expect you to know them even if you are not a Lawyer and break something simple something they should have taught in school.

    2.) They should teach more life stuff in School too but they don't things like why compulsive gambling is bad.

    But the thing about American Schools they don't instead if you go to a public school they let you sit around for at least an hour a day doing, in reality, nothing if you want and don't care this includes bullying and heck its easy to get people suspended given every time bullying takes place the teacher just happens to be outside the Classroom at the time...

    American public school lacks so much education in things when it comes to life skills, and so on an 8-year-old can learn much more off the internet, and YouTube of good or bad things that they can with go to school in a day.

    The thing about Education, Schools cut cost on things like Security, and Staff, and this is why so many things happen like we have to read about on the news because the school cut both staff and security and then bad things happen.

    So you are saying that violent video games teach violence?
    Absolutely I am not one of those people who say all violent video games should be banned, but I do think every Video Game such as GTA 5, should have a clear warning put on them that the game is "Fiction" and that trying to reproduce such acts should never be tried in real life.

    Like for most adult's this is an easy concept to grasp that you would normally not just go outside and shoot someone because you did this in GTA5, but when you get a bunch of Young Kids, because it's easy to get hold of a violent game and be playing it even with a parents back, then yes it has problems, there are obviously ways to help cure and prevent this kinda such as require an XBOX Live Subscription to even play GTA5, or rather Verification of your age along with XBOX One's feature of Facial Verification of people in the room.

    Generally speaking though when you look at games which have heavy violence, and crime and you stick this together with a young person, they are like Guns are awesome, without the proper education about Life teaching them that you don't respawn in Real Life, and education that you should never harm people there is a higher chance that lets say if a kid was given a gun they would go out and harm others, or even get hold of their parents firearm and it ends up on the news as one of those shootings at a public school.

    And I kinda speak from experience with this because I was one of those who was young, and playing HalfLife at the age of 7 years old, and Counter-Strike the original games sure I didn't exactly grow up to go outside and do harm to others but this is because parents knowing nothing about video games actually saw what they were like and taught some things/education on what not to do in Real Life as a young one.

    But even then with a Internet full of things, you also have to realize how much bad stuff is out there, and I am not just talking about violence, but also games like Keep Talking and no one explodes, sure it's a fun game, but it teaches people about Bombs, not so much as instructions its supposed to be a fun game, but in the hands of a young person or Teenager it could teach them to google the B word, and with the right instructions how to build the B word, it's really not that hard it's pretty much how I got my education in Electronics, and computers I didn't the complete school for that matter, but the internet had everything I need to learn from there.

    As for parental controls on a computer, when I was 9 years old I was bypassing these easily, and still it's impossible to censor everything on a computer from a young person which is why proper education needs to be put in place of teaching young ones that Video Games are just games, which should never be repeated in Real Life, including the gambling / lootbox problem that exists today, I once saw kids trying to repeat actions done by ninjas, and stunt professionals in video games and hurting themselves in school because they thought they could do it.

    And especially with Virtual Reality getting more real do gambling warnings, and warnings about violence for that matter need to be in games.

    https://nypost.com/2017/09/14/high-school-shooter-showed-off-assault-rifle-on-social-media/ ^ Just one thing that could have been prevented.
    Gdemami
  • Kayo83Kayo83 Member UncommonPosts: 399
    Paying real money on RNG to get a reward? Paying for a "chance" to get what you want? 

    Its borderline gambling at least, but I hope it is classified as gambling regardless. Worldwide. Hopefully that will deter the wanker suits at the head of developer/publisher companies from going through the trouble and/or straight up make it illegal for it to be done in games made for minors.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Aeander said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Renoaku said:
    DMKano said:
    The issue is education.

    So I say lets turn this issue upside down.

    Teach about gambling and addiction n schools, alongside  probability and statistics as well as basic money mangement.

    Give kids a chance - pun intended ;)


    This is why all games including "Arche Age" "Overwatch" need to come with a warning on the box about compulsive gambling at least, and Education in school wouldn't be too bad the funny thing about America, in general, is that.

    1.) The Laws are different everywhere, but they expect you to know them even if you are not a Lawyer and break something simple something they should have taught in school.

    2.) They should teach more life stuff in School too but they don't things like why compulsive gambling is bad.

    But the thing about American Schools they don't instead if you go to a public school they let you sit around for at least an hour a day doing, in reality, nothing if you want and don't care this includes bullying and heck its easy to get people suspended given every time bullying takes place the teacher just happens to be outside the Classroom at the time...

    American public school lacks so much education in things when it comes to life skills, and so on an 8-year-old can learn much more off the internet, and YouTube of good or bad things that they can with go to school in a day.

    The thing about Education, Schools cut cost on things like Security, and Staff, and this is why so many things happen like we have to read about on the news because the school cut both staff and security and then bad things happen.

    So you are saying that violent video games teach violence?
    There is a profound difference. Violence in gaming is an unrealistic, usually exaggerated simulation.

    Gambling in games has also been used as a simulation, when in unpaid form (ie: the casinos in Pokemon games), and this has never been a significant problem. The problem is that lootboxes aren't a simulation of gambling; because you are paying real money for a randomized reward, you are effectively engaging in the real thing.

    I think that you just hit the nail on the head here, you are paying money for a randomized reward. So you get something. This is the major differentiator between the legal definition and loot boxes that has been outlined previously. Also, I believe it has something to do with monetary returns. 

    Whatever the case, my initial point was that if you believe that loot boxes are teaching dangerous gambling habits, then what does that mean for violence? Does it now open the door for discussion, once again, because now we're claiming that games can lead to learned behaviors that emulate what's inside the game? 

    Torval

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,202
    Lets spend lots of money teaching about stuff that effects less than 2% of the population instead of teaching stuff like stay away from drugs, sex, and violence which they removed from the schools and effect a lot more people in much more negative ways.  But hey it is for the kids and not the fact that people on this board are just looking for a way to stop loot boxes and have jumped on the gambling bandwagon to achieve that goal.....
    GdemamiCrazKanuk
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,019
    Make loot boxes/items/purchases etc bind on acquiring/purchasing an that's the end of this gambling in gaming practice.

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 5,750
    Horusra said:
    Lets spend lots of money teaching about stuff that effects less than 2% of the population instead of teaching stuff like stay away from drugs, sex, and violence which they removed from the schools and effect a lot more people in much more negative ways.  But hey it is for the kids and not the fact that people on this board are just looking for a way to stop loot boxes and have jumped on the gambling bandwagon to achieve that goal.....
    You do realize that DARE and other anti-drug programs in schools were ineffective and may have actually contributed to increased drug use.

    Also, abstinence only sex education is incredibly ineffective and only leads to an ignorance of safe sex practices and the potential consequences of not practicing these.
    Gdemami
  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,202
    edited December 2017
    Aeander said:
    Horusra said:
    Lets spend lots of money teaching about stuff that effects less than 2% of the population instead of teaching stuff like stay away from drugs, sex, and violence which they removed from the schools and effect a lot more people in much more negative ways.  But hey it is for the kids and not the fact that people on this board are just looking for a way to stop loot boxes and have jumped on the gambling bandwagon to achieve that goal.....
    You do realize that DARE and other anti-drug programs in schools were ineffective and may have actually contributed to increased drug use.

    Also, abstinence only sex education is incredibly ineffective and only leads to an ignorance of safe sex practices and the potential consequences of not practicing these.

    But gambling education will save the day????  Never learn from history do we?  Why not just show kids how adults burn tax dollars by making a fire and just throw it in.
  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,211
    Scot said:
    Make loot boxes/items/purchases etc bind on acquiring/purchasing an that's the end of this gambling in gaming practice.
    This might actually make them more money as well. The reason that they dont do this, is because it decreases the public perception of the value of the items being sold. However, if they can say that they have to do this for legal reasons, people may accept it, without the loss in value.
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 5,750
    Horusra said:
    Aeander said:
    Horusra said:
    Lets spend lots of money teaching about stuff that effects less than 2% of the population instead of teaching stuff like stay away from drugs, sex, and violence which they removed from the schools and effect a lot more people in much more negative ways.  But hey it is for the kids and not the fact that people on this board are just looking for a way to stop loot boxes and have jumped on the gambling bandwagon to achieve that goal.....
    You do realize that DARE and other anti-drug programs in schools were ineffective and may have actually contributed to increased drug use.

    Also, abstinence only sex education is incredibly ineffective and only leads to an ignorance of safe sex practices and the potential consequences of not practicing these.

    But gambling education will save the day????  Never learn from history do we?  Why not just show kids how adults burn tax dollars by making a fire and just throw it in.
    Which is why I'm not advocating for gambling education? The only people advocating for consumer-end responsibilities are the "free market solves everything" thralls.

    It is my opinion that a properly regulated capitalism is the only effective economic system. The free market is a powerful tool, but it is not a flawless system and requires occassional stipulations. When corporations overstep their boundaries and harm either the consumer, the worker, the environment, or the very competition that keeps the free market in place, government intervention is necessary. Self-regulation is possible, but if it proves insufficient, goverment intervention becomes the only viable solution.
    GdemamiScot
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,275
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    The issue is education.

    So I say lets turn this issue upside down.

    Teach about gambling and addiction n schools, alongside  probability and statistics as well as basic money mangement.

    Give kids a chance - pun intended ;)



    They did all this when I went to school. Now they don't even teach geography, civics, or economics. When my daughter went to school her curriculum was useless. How do you tell your kid they're teaching her garbage? Now she has children and it's even worse. My son is homeschooling his kids. 


    I am a firm believer that instead of trying to put kids in a glass bubble to protect them from the real world - educate them instead, give them knowledge and skills to deal with the real world.


    Educated people ask too many questions.

    Better to dumb them down.
    Iselin

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    laserit said:
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    The issue is education.

    So I say lets turn this issue upside down.

    Teach about gambling and addiction n schools, alongside  probability and statistics as well as basic money mangement.

    Give kids a chance - pun intended ;)



    They did all this when I went to school. Now they don't even teach geography, civics, or economics. When my daughter went to school her curriculum was useless. How do you tell your kid they're teaching her garbage? Now she has children and it's even worse. My son is homeschooling his kids. 


    I am a firm believer that instead of trying to put kids in a glass bubble to protect them from the real world - educate them instead, give them knowledge and skills to deal with the real world.


    Educated people ask too many questions.

    Better to dumb them down.
    All you really need to do is dumb down the base education so you can pass everyone without really teaching them anything and put a high enough entry fee on the real education to weed out the unwashed masses... job done.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
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