What has mostly happened to the progression of MMORPGs is that computers stopped getting faster. There were a lot of good ideas, that were implausible back in the day and still implausible now.
We won't see much improvement until computers actually make a leap in something more meaningful than graphics.
Things besides graphics aren't dependant on hardware speed though, so I'm not sure why you think more would help. We've got enough hardware for good physics simulation, or for better AI if that existed. We've got more than enough hardware for interactive story, intricate game mechanics, voice chat, deeply developed NPCs, less predictable monsters...
Very true, @sunandshadow. There is plenty of hardware on the client end to do much more elaborate things than games attempt. The problem, in my view, is that games aren't attempting to do anything more elaborate. Processing power is adequate for much more difficult applications, why haven't we seen game developers attempt anything that can't be reproduced with analog dice?
I disagree.
I am a software developer. I have worked on everything from large defence contracts through to small websites. I have also worked for a good games company, admittedly in QA rather than dev, but I hung out with the devs a lot.
Hardware is still a very real limitation. You would probably be shocked at just how many calculations are going on every second when playing a game. It is staggering! Not only is the volume staggering, but it all has to be perfectly timed otherwise everything falls apart.
The real barrier to improvement is on the software end. Not in terms of designing interesting things, there are plenty of capable devs for that, but in terms of how we do the fundamentals. I'll give you an example.
Games are sequential - one thing follows another - so timing is extremely crucial to a game running properly. I cannot calculate whether I have shot you before I have calculated where I am aiming, then where you are moving, then whether there is a collision or not. It is thus vitally important that calculations happen in the right order.
What this means is that most games still only utilise a single core on your processor. This is the easiest way to ensure the correct order is followed. Multi-threading (calculations being done on different cores) is an extremely complicated thing to get correct - not due to the hardware, but due to writing the software properly. So, I have a quad-core processor, but most games only use one core. That one core typically sits at 90-95% load whilst the other 3 idle at 20-30%. The software is causing me to hit a hardware limitation.
This gives us the illusion that buying new processors means we're getting more performance, but for gaming that isn't true. We are still hitting hardware limitations on a per-core basis and will continue to do so until game engines improve. This is obviously a generalisation - some games do utilise multi-threading.
Maybe that was true 10 years ago, but not nowadays.
How has it changed these days? It was my understanding that multi-threading is still a real issue for a lot of game devs and they struggle to take advantage of multiple cores - something I can attest to from watching my hardware monitors.
make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
"if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"
wow .. you just describe what you are trying to do to me.
But .. i am the bigger man. I am not going to be angry. I am just going to be amused. In fact, i am shocked that you will twist my post about using accurate language, which MANY has done so before here, to something twisted (see my pun there!).
So let me ask you this .. do you disagree that language should be used accurately? Or that you do not think there is a difference between MMO and MMORPG?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
"if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"
wow .. you just describe what you are trying to do to me.
But .. i am the bigger man. I am not going to be angry. I am just going to be amused. In fact, i am shocked that you will twist my post about using accurate language, which MANY has done so before here, to something twisted (see my pun there!).
So let me ask you this .. do you disagree that language should be used accurately? Or that you do not think there is a difference between MMO and MMORPG?
I see I've taught you well, carry on ....
Now .. who is the master and who is the student? If you check my number of posts .. i did beat you by a small margin.
make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
"if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"
wow .. you just describe what you are trying to do to me.
But .. i am the bigger man. I am not going to be angry. I am just going to be amused. In fact, i am shocked that you will twist my post about using accurate language, which MANY has done so before here, to something twisted (see my pun there!).
So let me ask you this .. do you disagree that language should be used accurately? Or that you do not think there is a difference between MMO and MMORPG?
I see I've taught you well, carry on ....
Now .. who is the master and who is the student? If you check my number of posts .. i did beat you by a small margin.
And he's legendary while you're still blue. That should tell you something, too.
Yes .. it says that my opinion is not as popular as his on this forum. Luckly, popularity is not what i am going for here.
make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
"if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"
wow .. you just describe what you are trying to do to me.
But .. i am the bigger man. I am not going to be angry. I am just going to be amused. In fact, i am shocked that you will twist my post about using accurate language, which MANY has done so before here, to something twisted (see my pun there!).
So let me ask you this .. do you disagree that language should be used accurately? Or that you do not think there is a difference between MMO and MMORPG?
I see I've taught you well, carry on ....
Now .. who is the master and who is the student? If you check my number of posts .. i did beat you by a small margin.
And he's legendary while you're still blue. That should tell you something, too.
Yes .. it says that my opinion is not as popular as his on this forum. Luckly, popularity is not what i am going for here.
Can you guess what i am going for here?
Unprecedented levels of consistent trolling about one specific issue that you constantly bait people into arguing with you about.
Unprecedented levels of consistent trolling about one specific issue that you constantly bait people into arguing with you about.
NAILED IT.
wow wow wow .. what ONE specific issue?
old school MMORPG static spawn is boring? whales support f2p games? f2p games are dominating p2p games? community is not needed in MMOs? virtual persistent world is not needed in MMOs? Devs are not interested in old school MMOs anymore? ....
The list goes on and on. Which ONE specific issue are you talking about?
community is not needed in MMOs? virtual persistent world is not needed in MMOs?
These two, which are both the same issue.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
Unprecedented levels of consistent trolling about one specific issue that you constantly bait people into arguing with you about.
NAILED IT.
wow wow wow .. what ONE specific issue?
old school MMORPG static spawn is boring? whales support f2p games? f2p games are dominating p2p games? community is not needed in MMOs? virtual persistent world is not needed in MMOs? Devs are not interested in old school MMOs anymore? ....
The list goes on and on. Which ONE specific issue are you talking about?
Unprecedented levels of consistent trolling about one specific issue that you constantly bait people into arguing with you about.
NAILED IT.
wow wow wow .. what ONE specific issue?
old school MMORPG static spawn is boring? whales support f2p games? f2p games are dominating p2p games? community is not needed in MMOs? virtual persistent world is not needed in MMOs? Devs are not interested in old school MMOs anymore? ....
The list goes on and on. Which ONE specific issue are you talking about?
Those can be summarised in two consistent themes (dead horses?)
1) Traditional MMORPG mechanics no longer appeal to the mass market, and developers are under no obligation to provide a new game which includes them.
2) F2P MMOs are just as entertaining (if not better) than any P2P MMORPG (but who cares about labels, many don't) "for you."
By themselves they are fine topics for discussion, but when used to "chum the waters" of countless unrelated threads it gets wearisome.
You aren't alone in this behavior, some folks like to bring up specific games or designs or payment models into again unrelated threads derailing the conversation.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
so no i am not happy with the type of CHEAP superficial gaming dev studios are aiming for.
Even trhe more aggressive quality type genres are done CHEAP,Crowfall =CHEAP,all those other locked overhead camera games =cheap,there is so little quality it is sickening to see the market flooded with this crap.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
What has mostly happened to the progression of MMORPGs is that computers stopped getting faster. There were a lot of good ideas, that were implausible back in the day and still implausible now.
We won't see much improvement until computers actually make a leap in something more meaningful than graphics.
Things besides graphics aren't dependant on hardware speed though, so I'm not sure why you think more would help. We've got enough hardware for good physics simulation, or for better AI if that existed. We've got more than enough hardware for interactive story, intricate game mechanics, voice chat, deeply developed NPCs, less predictable monsters...
Very true, @sunandshadow. There is plenty of hardware on the client end to do much more elaborate things than games attempt. The problem, in my view, is that games aren't attempting to do anything more elaborate. Processing power is adequate for much more difficult applications, why haven't we seen game developers attempt anything that can't be reproduced with analog dice?
I disagree.
I am a software developer. I have worked on everything from large defence contracts through to small websites. I have also worked for a good games company, admittedly in QA rather than dev, but I hung out with the devs a lot.
Hardware is still a very real limitation. You would probably be shocked at just how many calculations are going on every second when playing a game. It is staggering! Not only is the volume staggering, but it all has to be perfectly timed otherwise everything falls apart.
The real barrier to improvement is on the software end. Not in terms of designing interesting things, there are plenty of capable devs for that, but in terms of how we do the fundamentals. I'll give you an example.
Games are sequential - one thing follows another - so timing is extremely crucial to a game running properly. I cannot calculate whether I have shot you before I have calculated where I am aiming, then where you are moving, then whether there is a collision or not. It is thus vitally important that calculations happen in the right order.
What this means is that most games still only utilise a single core on your processor. This is the easiest way to ensure the correct order is followed. Multi-threading (calculations being done on different cores) is an extremely complicated thing to get correct - not due to the hardware, but due to writing the software properly. So, I have a quad-core processor, but most games only use one core. That one core typically sits at 90-95% load whilst the other 3 idle at 20-30%. The software is causing me to hit a hardware limitation.
This gives us the illusion that buying new processors means we're getting more performance, but for gaming that isn't true. We are still hitting hardware limitations on a per-core basis and will continue to do so until game engines improve. This is obviously a generalisation - some games do utilise multi-threading.
Maybe that was true 10 years ago, but not nowadays.
How has it changed these days? It was my understanding that multi-threading is still a real issue for a lot of game devs and they struggle to take advantage of multiple cores - something I can attest to from watching my hardware monitors.
The good developers/firms have no issues with multi-threading. Look at any Blizzard game. They run gloriously on Multi-Threaded systems. This is part of the reason why WoW runs so well, along with Overwatch ... which runs amazingly. You can raid in WoW on a Kaveri-era AMD APU in a Notebook, but you can't even play Path of Exile on that kind of machine (it's completely unplayable - sub-20 FPS performance even with stuff turned down). Blizzard developed their games with an eye towards the future, and they keep on top of their Graphics Engine Maintenance.
Now, contrast that to EverQuest II... Which runs awfully on newer systems because the game was developed with poor assumptions, and they've done very little to modernize their code base or graphics engine.
I think a lot of developers simply aren't putting in the work to optimize their games well. They are rushing to release, so that they can make as much money as possible. They are putting these things off, but they are generally done half-assed, if at all, when they get around to it post-release. Players should demand this on release... Especially for Buy to Play or Subscription games.
The incentive to polish a game drops substantially post-release, unless there is outrage about the quality. Most people don't notice the efficiency issues - they simply stop playing if it runs badly on their PC, or they upgrade a component or two, if possible. They often don't give any feedback.
Developers will always do the PR spin about how they plan to tackle these issues, but recent history has taught me that they often take years to even touch them. Path of Exile pretty much ceased to exist to me before they "fixed" DeSync, for example.
MMORPGs should be developed with an eye towards the future. They are long term investments of both time and money, so you have to assume that more people will get more systems with higher core count and better GPUs. If you don't utilize properly, then they aren't getting much value out of their upgrade when playing your game.
I think that it's unforgiveable for a new MMORPG to release with bad CPU and/or GPU utilization, and poor hardware scaling.
Generally, if a game is not well optimized on release, I don't bother with it. It's a pretty good indicator of developer priorities or competencies.
The direction is not a direction, is a re-hash of the same that was done before, a lack of ambition and undertaking of risks to achieve new play experiences within the genre is unfortunate, especially when big developers seem moved away from MMOs as a general rule.
so no i am not happy with the type of CHEAP superficial gaming dev studios are aiming for.
Even trhe more aggressive quality type genres are done CHEAP,Crowfall =CHEAP,all those other locked overhead camera games =cheap,there is so little quality it is sickening to see the market flooded with this crap.
The problem with battlegrounds is really that they are like a round of a regular multiplayer game inside a MMORPG, but something like that can never be as good as a regular multiplayer game only giving us specific maps to fight the same map, you just can't put that much into just one aspect of a massive game.
But there are problems with making a really massive PvP combat game as well. General MMO mechanics suck for massive battles, they were never originally intended for it. You either get a zerg game or total chaos. While a historical battle had it's part of chaos they also had strategy and tactics but neither of them work in a MMO unless you create specific new mechanics for them.
Far too many of the devs think that if a skirmish is fun you can just add 200 more players to it and it will still be fun but you just get a clusterf*** instead.
I guess even the investors figured that out and that is why the PvP focused MMORPGs tend to be so cheap, investors don't like taking a chance on a dev team that creates totally new mechanics and they know the old ones don't work.
I think the first thing to do is to actually learn a little about actual historical battles from the right technological period you use and then figure out mechanics that at least makes the massive combat feel more like a battle and less like just anarchy. You don't have to make it historically correct or anything, just add a little order and tactics into it.
so no i am not happy with the type of CHEAP superficial gaming dev studios are aiming for.
Even trhe more aggressive quality type genres are done CHEAP,Crowfall =CHEAP,all those other locked overhead camera games =cheap,there is so little quality it is sickening to see the market flooded with this crap.
Far too many of the devs think that if a skirmish is fun you can just add 200 more players to it and it will still be fun but you just get a clusterf*** instead.
Collision detection and squad formations......that is my dream!
Lets say you are in a 20man group on the battlefield. Your group leader can hit a formation button - e.g. shield wall - that would put down an overlay on the group, indicating a shield wall. Each group member would then have to move onto the overlay and press a button to join the formation.
Once in formation, the group moves as one. Players would still have to move themselves, but the formation mechanics would kinda "guide" everyone to stay in the same places. Each player's abilities might have to get restricted - you wouldn't want someone in a shield wall to be able to do a 2handed AoE attack for example.
Formations should also open up additional abilities. I don't know what you'd call it, but lets say you are in a shield wall fighting another group. There would be an ability that your front row members could use that would grab an enemy, open a hole in our shield wall, throw the enemy essentially behind our lines, then reform the wall. This would effectively isolate the enemy and allow any berserker-types to finish off the lone enemy. The enemy, due to collision detection, wouldn't be able to get back to his own side.
I think if someone were able to implement formations in a way that was easy to use, useful and still fun, we'd start seeing a whole different side to large scale PvP.
(I'm basically imaging Medieval II - Total War formations)
society is in a different place than it was 10-15 years ago. Thats probably the biggest contributing factor for the change in general especially with mmos.
People dont have time for MMO's how they used to be, they need it streamlined now because attention spans are just shorter. Remember physical Game Guide books? Those things were hundreds of pages long with game info and intel.. having one meant everything, today you just need to watch the video on youtube.
Times have changed and we have to adapt. Going to be interested to see what happens during the next decade for sure with games like Star Citizen even Elite having such ambitious plans.
I think people have just as much time now as they did 10-15 yrs ago. Maybe not your age group or mine, but it most likely the same. What is different is people now days don't have the attention span to stay in one game very long and they are moving on to the next. "The instant gratification" crowd.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
society is in a different place than it was 10-15 years ago. Thats probably the biggest contributing factor for the change in general especially with mmos.
People dont have time for MMO's how they used to be, they need it streamlined now because attention spans are just shorter. Remember physical Game Guide books? Those things were hundreds of pages long with game info and intel.. having one meant everything, today you just need to watch the video on youtube.
Times have changed and we have to adapt. Going to be interested to see what happens during the next decade for sure with games like Star Citizen even Elite having such ambitious plans.
I think people have just as much time now as they did 10-15 yrs ago. Maybe not your age group or mine, but it most likely the same. What is different is people now days don't have the attention span to stay in one game very long and they are moving on to the next. "The instant gratification" crowd.
People have less time than they had 10-15 years ago because there is many more forms of entertainment that are easily accessible to them. Doing the same thing gets boring. Variety is the spice of life...
Things like travel are easier as well. Many cities that didn't have decent public transport systems a decade ago do have this today. People are a lot more fickle with their activities. They don't see a point in sitting in one place playing the same game all the time.
They're also fickle with their games. Many don't see a point in playing the same game almost exclusively. Computing power is also more accessible and cheaper than it once was. This has, by extension, really opened up the amount of viable choices people have for gaming. A game like Crisis was not an option for the average MMORPG player, years ago. This is not necessarily the case today, with even budget cards being able to play games like Overwatch and Destiny at High-Ultra settings without much sub-60 FPS dippage (i.e. a GTX 1050). Even lower end CPUs are quite capable.
MMORPGs were generally nice for people with lower end systems, while FPS games favored those pushing the boundaries of hardware. This is no longer the case. MMORPGs have just as high system requirements, and there are a lot of FPS-type games available to these users.
Back in the day, I play EQ almost exclusively. Once I got an expensive laptop with a descrete Nvidia card and fast P4 CPU, I started playing things like Unreal Tournament, Neverwinter Nights, etc. Before then, I didn't even bother looking at other games, because my PC wasn't powerful enough to run much beyond EQ, which didn't require much of a GPU at all...
Gaming peripherals are also cheaper.
The Twitch phenomenon also plays a part. Not many people want to watch MMORPG gameplay. It's boring as hell to watch. Competitive games like MOBAs, StarCraft, and FPS-type games are a lot funner (Destiny 2, Overwatch, etc.). This is easily observable if you look at the streaming popularity for even some of the most popular RPG and MMORPG games compared to those other genres. The numbers do not lie... This has had a huge effect on developer mindset, and how games are developed and targeted to users.
This is why a lot of developers are trying to fuse eSport into their MMORPGs. They want to appeal to the streamer audience, because those people give their game more visibility, as well (free marketing). This is why we have the obsession with competitive aspects like PvP, and skill-based Action Combat Systems as opposed to tab-targeting.
It has nothing to do with attention spans, and statements like that are blatantly offensive. I think "instant gratification" statements are also immature and blatantly offensive. Clueless people make these generalizations, without even observing or mentioning how the industry and general trends among player bases have changed over the years.
It has nothing to do with what you people are talking about. It has to do with the fact that most MMORPG games are boring, especially now that there is less emphasis on the social capital in the game. There are too many resets, which make the MMORPGs feel like single player games with DLC patches. Back in EQ, you could wear Velious Gear well into Luclin, and Pre-Elemental Guilds were still farming Vex Thal heavily. This doesn't happen in current MMORPGs. If you aren't beating the content fast, or before the next content patch, they obsolete all of your work and boost you past the finish line. This is not a great experience for me, or for many other people.
EverQuest was boring as hell to play. I played it because it was the only way to socialize with some really cool people that I met in that game. This was in 2001. Without EQ, I'd be relegated to Email ( *gasp* ) and AIM or MSN Messenger. These days, we don't need MMORPGs to provide that function. Since the social aspect is fairly commodity, these days, due to the proliferation of technology and online services; the competitive aspects have risen in importance to the player base.
Applications/Services like TeamSpeak and Ventrillo have helped this along.
You no longer need to log into the same game consistently to keep in touch with these people. The MMORPGs have become too competitive, but the way content and progression is managed is unfun for many people (as most never get to finish the content, which defeats the purpose of playing it, IMO - this is why WoW has LFR, BTW). Constant gear resets making it a waste of time to "work" for anything. Class-changing (sometimes breaking) balance patches that delete the reasons for you to play a specific class.
MMORPGs have more negatives than positives these days, AFAIC.
There's a huge time investment with very little benefit, have gotten to the point that most aren't really that entertaining, and developers do not respect or value the time and effort people put into these games. They think they're digital deities.
That is a big reason why I, someone who played MMORPGs hardcore for the better part of 15+ years, decided to start playing other genres and stop "funding" the development of MMORPG games. Every now and then I'll hop into WoW to socialize a bit, but I haven't played it seriously in a long time. It isn't worth my time. If I spend 50 hours catching up to do anything, I 100% expect the next content patch or expansion to effectively waste that time.
This was not the case back in 2000. It is the norm now. These games are a waste of time, and don't respect the limited time I set aside to contribute to their viability, so I am pretty much done with them.
Not counting some dabbling in free trials and runescape I started with wow and I didn't really have a concept of how mmo's were going to go in the future then. But overtime I started to see what I thought was significant flaws in the overall design of an MMO in wow. In short gw2 was a big step in the right direction but not nearly enough. Ashes of creation is currently the only MMO that is leaning towards my 'vision' of what i want an mmo to be after gw2 and also probably has a chance of ever coming out and/or not be a p2w shitfest.
So to answer the question, it has hardly moved in the direction I imagined.
MMORPGs have more negatives than positives these days, AFAIC.
I actually think exactly the opposite. We are just starting to leave the era of WoW clones, and we are starting to get MMORPGs with a new approach to the genre again (GW2, ESO, BDO). I personally can't wait to see what the future will bring us MMO wise.
BDO has absolutely no end game. It's Lineage II with a different graphics ending and combat system, but no PvE worth caring about. PvE is still king when it comes to MMORPGs, even though people rave so much about the PvP (casuals are king, and don't tend to frequent gaming web forums like this).
GW2 isn't that great, and ESO had to completely alter their business model for a reason.
I think the thing that may breath a bit of life into the genre is the move to consoles, personally.
But I don't think there is much of a selling point for an MMORPG, when other genres are adopting the good parts and leaving out the cruft.
MMORPGs have more negatives than positives these days, AFAIC.
I actually think exactly the opposite. We are just starting to leave the era of WoW clones, and we are starting to get MMORPGs with a new approach to the genre again (GW2, ESO, BDO). I personally can't wait to see what the future will bring us MMO wise.
Replays from the past?
CU - DAOC Pantheon - EQ1/Vanguard SoL - EQ1 LiF - Xyson LoA - UO SotA - UO SoH - COH/CoX
There are some hopefuls for variety including Crowfall, Ashes, CoE, SC, New World and some others, but overall I'm not seeing a lot of bright spots on the horizon.
But then again what you see as steps in the right direction for BDO, GW2, and ESO still aren't what I'm looking for so perhaps why our differing outlook.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I didn't know the world was so full of "give-me" types who wanted to be made winners in their own minds, as opposed to gamers who wanted challenge in their game.
This is the problem with MMOs today, in my eyes.
The games cater to the players, as they should. Right now, the playerbase is very different from the "days of yore." Gone are the players seeking a living, breathing world to spend their time in, to be replaced by "gimme, gimme, achievements!" console (thus the achievements) players, players who find they are unable to turn off their cell phones for more than 1 minute or two, and the seemingly ADHD players who get bored if they're not clicking something every second of time in the game.
Back in the day, I imagined MMORPGs becoming even more integrated and interesting worlds to live in. I knew graphics would improve, Internet speeds would get better, and computing power would increase. How much or how this would be implemented, I had no clue. I hoped for "something" to help make the games more user friendly but never imagined how far down that road they would take off running at full speed.
Most of all, I imagined MMOs would improve (not "made easier") on the many aspects that appealed to different playstyles like soloing, grouping, questing, dungeon crawling, raiding, crafting, guild building, and most of all social interaction between players (remember when "emotes" stood for a possible character animation?). I'm no glutton for punishment but I also like to feel like I accomplished something with my time in a game other than button mashing the required number of clicks. Many of the UI and tools have been "improvements" in my eyes.
I can't blame the developers or publishers. MMOs grew. Incredibly fast. And the influx of different types of players changed the genre. Now, the 400K players that EQ once boasted is not what developers today shoot for. They saw that 10M+ playerbase that WoW once had and nothing less will do for them now. 300-400K targeted, satisfied, and loyal players * $15/month takes too long to recoup their costs, I guess.
Just my wooden nickel's worth.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
We've taken 10 years to find out that consumers don't want repackaged WoW over and over.
Yet these MMOs rake in multiple millions every year. Sure, that's mainly from a few whales, but money rules when a "hobby" becomes a "business."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
People have less time than they had 10-15 years ago because there is many more forms of entertainment that are easily accessible to them. Doing the same thing gets boring. Variety is the spice of life...
Is anyone else getting less than the 24 hours every day that I am getting? Have people actually "lost time?"
I think I have to break the news, but time is a constant. We all have the same amount, measured in the same exact way. What differs is how we chose to spend what time we have.
Is there a lot more "activities" today vying for our allotted time? You bet there is. But there is still 24 hours each and every day. "Free Time" is another thing. Maybe that's what you meant?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I have more games that I am very interested in then I have a life time to consume, and they all came out in the past 3 years. At least for me its the best era ever
currently enjoying Elite Dangerous
but yes...MMOs not so much
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I have more games that I am very interested in then I have a life time to consume, and they all came out in the past 3 years. At least for me its the best era ever
currently enjoying Elite Dangerous
but yes...MMOs not so much
Welcome back. You play with a mouse/ keyboard set up or use a flightstick? If the latter which one?
(The temptation to ask if you play with your joystick was very strong, but I overcame it)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Now .. who is the master and who is the student? If you check my number of posts .. i did beat you by a small margin.
Can you guess what i am going for here?
NAILED IT.
old school MMORPG static spawn is boring?
whales support f2p games?
f2p games are dominating p2p games?
community is not needed in MMOs?
virtual persistent world is not needed in MMOs?
Devs are not interested in old school MMOs anymore?
....
The list goes on and on. Which ONE specific issue are you talking about?
Without it there is no MMO
Water for the win
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Keeps the forums much cleaner
1) Traditional MMORPG mechanics no longer appeal to the mass market, and developers are under no obligation to provide a new game which includes them.
2) F2P MMOs are just as entertaining (if not better) than any P2P MMORPG (but who cares about labels, many don't) "for you."
By themselves they are fine topics for discussion, but when used to "chum the waters" of countless unrelated threads it gets wearisome.
You aren't alone in this behavior, some folks like to bring up specific games or designs or payment models into again unrelated threads derailing the conversation.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MOBA's =1/10
so no i am not happy with the type of CHEAP superficial gaming dev studios are aiming for.
Even trhe more aggressive quality type genres are done CHEAP,Crowfall =CHEAP,all those other locked overhead camera games =cheap,there is so little quality it is sickening to see the market flooded with this crap.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The good developers/firms have no issues with multi-threading. Look at any Blizzard game. They run gloriously on Multi-Threaded systems. This is part of the reason why WoW runs so well, along with Overwatch ... which runs amazingly. You can raid in WoW on a Kaveri-era AMD APU in a Notebook, but you can't even play Path of Exile on that kind of machine (it's completely unplayable - sub-20 FPS performance even with stuff turned down). Blizzard developed their games with an eye towards the future, and they keep on top of their Graphics Engine Maintenance.
Now, contrast that to EverQuest II... Which runs awfully on newer systems because the game was developed with poor assumptions, and they've done very little to modernize their code base or graphics engine.
I think a lot of developers simply aren't putting in the work to optimize their games well. They are rushing to release, so that they can make as much money as possible. They are putting these things off, but they are generally done half-assed, if at all, when they get around to it post-release. Players should demand this on release... Especially for Buy to Play or Subscription games.
The incentive to polish a game drops substantially post-release, unless there is outrage about the quality. Most people don't notice the efficiency issues - they simply stop playing if it runs badly on their PC, or they upgrade a component or two, if possible. They often don't give any feedback.
Developers will always do the PR spin about how they plan to tackle these issues, but recent history has taught me that they often take years to even touch them. Path of Exile pretty much ceased to exist to me before they "fixed" DeSync, for example.
MMORPGs should be developed with an eye towards the future. They are long term investments of both time and money, so you have to assume that more people will get more systems with higher core count and better GPUs. If you don't utilize properly, then they aren't getting much value out of their upgrade when playing your game.
I think that it's unforgiveable for a new MMORPG to release with bad CPU and/or GPU utilization, and poor hardware scaling.
Generally, if a game is not well optimized on release, I don't bother with it. It's a pretty good indicator of developer priorities or competencies.
But there are problems with making a really massive PvP combat game as well. General MMO mechanics suck for massive battles, they were never originally intended for it. You either get a zerg game or total chaos. While a historical battle had it's part of chaos they also had strategy and tactics but neither of them work in a MMO unless you create specific new mechanics for them.
Far too many of the devs think that if a skirmish is fun you can just add 200 more players to it and it will still be fun but you just get a clusterf*** instead.
I guess even the investors figured that out and that is why the PvP focused MMORPGs tend to be so cheap, investors don't like taking a chance on a dev team that creates totally new mechanics and they know the old ones don't work.
I think the first thing to do is to actually learn a little about actual historical battles from the right technological period you use and then figure out mechanics that at least makes the massive combat feel more like a battle and less like just anarchy. You don't have to make it historically correct or anything, just add a little order and tactics into it.
Lets say you are in a 20man group on the battlefield. Your group leader can hit a formation button - e.g. shield wall - that would put down an overlay on the group, indicating a shield wall. Each group member would then have to move onto the overlay and press a button to join the formation.
Once in formation, the group moves as one. Players would still have to move themselves, but the formation mechanics would kinda "guide" everyone to stay in the same places. Each player's abilities might have to get restricted - you wouldn't want someone in a shield wall to be able to do a 2handed AoE attack for example.
Formations should also open up additional abilities. I don't know what you'd call it, but lets say you are in a shield wall fighting another group. There would be an ability that your front row members could use that would grab an enemy, open a hole in our shield wall, throw the enemy essentially behind our lines, then reform the wall. This would effectively isolate the enemy and allow any berserker-types to finish off the lone enemy. The enemy, due to collision detection, wouldn't be able to get back to his own side.
I think if someone were able to implement formations in a way that was easy to use, useful and still fun, we'd start seeing a whole different side to large scale PvP.
(I'm basically imaging Medieval II - Total War formations)
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
Things like travel are easier as well. Many cities that didn't have decent public transport systems a decade ago do have this today. People are a lot more fickle with their activities. They don't see a point in sitting in one place playing the same game all the time.
They're also fickle with their games. Many don't see a point in playing the same game almost exclusively. Computing power is also more accessible and cheaper than it once was. This has, by extension, really opened up the amount of viable choices people have for gaming. A game like Crisis was not an option for the average MMORPG player, years ago. This is not necessarily the case today, with even budget cards being able to play games like Overwatch and Destiny at High-Ultra settings without much sub-60 FPS dippage (i.e. a GTX 1050). Even lower end CPUs are quite capable.
MMORPGs were generally nice for people with lower end systems, while FPS games favored those pushing the boundaries of hardware. This is no longer the case. MMORPGs have just as high system requirements, and there are a lot of FPS-type games available to these users.
Back in the day, I play EQ almost exclusively. Once I got an expensive laptop with a descrete Nvidia card and fast P4 CPU, I started playing things like Unreal Tournament, Neverwinter Nights, etc. Before then, I didn't even bother looking at other games, because my PC wasn't powerful enough to run much beyond EQ, which didn't require much of a GPU at all...
Gaming peripherals are also cheaper.
The Twitch phenomenon also plays a part. Not many people want to watch MMORPG gameplay. It's boring as hell to watch. Competitive games like MOBAs, StarCraft, and FPS-type games are a lot funner (Destiny 2, Overwatch, etc.). This is easily observable if you look at the streaming popularity for even some of the most popular RPG and MMORPG games compared to those other genres. The numbers do not lie... This has had a huge effect on developer mindset, and how games are developed and targeted to users.
This is why a lot of developers are trying to fuse eSport into their MMORPGs. They want to appeal to the streamer audience, because those people give their game more visibility, as well (free marketing). This is why we have the obsession with competitive aspects like PvP, and skill-based Action Combat Systems as opposed to tab-targeting.
It has nothing to do with attention spans, and statements like that are blatantly offensive. I think "instant gratification" statements are also immature and blatantly offensive. Clueless people make these generalizations, without even observing or mentioning how the industry and general trends among player bases have changed over the years.
It has nothing to do with what you people are talking about. It has to do with the fact that most MMORPG games are boring, especially now that there is less emphasis on the social capital in the game. There are too many resets, which make the MMORPGs feel like single player games with DLC patches. Back in EQ, you could wear Velious Gear well into Luclin, and Pre-Elemental Guilds were still farming Vex Thal heavily. This doesn't happen in current MMORPGs. If you aren't beating the content fast, or before the next content patch, they obsolete all of your work and boost you past the finish line. This is not a great experience for me, or for many other people.
EverQuest was boring as hell to play. I played it because it was the only way to socialize with some really cool people that I met in that game. This was in 2001. Without EQ, I'd be relegated to Email ( *gasp* ) and AIM or MSN Messenger. These days, we don't need MMORPGs to provide that function. Since the social aspect is fairly commodity, these days, due to the proliferation of technology and online services; the competitive aspects have risen in importance to the player base.
Applications/Services like TeamSpeak and Ventrillo have helped this along.
You no longer need to log into the same game consistently to keep in touch with these people. The MMORPGs have become too competitive, but the way content and progression is managed is unfun for many people (as most never get to finish the content, which defeats the purpose of playing it, IMO - this is why WoW has LFR, BTW). Constant gear resets making it a waste of time to "work" for anything. Class-changing (sometimes breaking) balance patches that delete the reasons for you to play a specific class.
MMORPGs have more negatives than positives these days, AFAIC.
There's a huge time investment with very little benefit, have gotten to the point that most aren't really that entertaining, and developers do not respect or value the time and effort people put into these games. They think they're digital deities.
That is a big reason why I, someone who played MMORPGs hardcore for the better part of 15+ years, decided to start playing other genres and stop "funding" the development of MMORPG games. Every now and then I'll hop into WoW to socialize a bit, but I haven't played it seriously in a long time. It isn't worth my time. If I spend 50 hours catching up to do anything, I 100% expect the next content patch or expansion to effectively waste that time.
This was not the case back in 2000. It is the norm now. These games are a waste of time, and don't respect the limited time I set aside to contribute to their viability, so I am pretty much done with them.
So to answer the question, it has hardly moved in the direction I imagined.
GW2 isn't that great, and ESO had to completely alter their business model for a reason.
I think the thing that may breath a bit of life into the genre is the move to consoles, personally.
But I don't think there is much of a selling point for an MMORPG, when other genres are adopting the good parts and leaving out the cruft.
CU - DAOC
Pantheon - EQ1/Vanguard
SoL - EQ1
LiF - Xyson
LoA - UO
SotA - UO
SoH - COH/CoX
There are some hopefuls for variety including Crowfall, Ashes, CoE, SC, New World and some others, but overall I'm not seeing a lot of bright spots on the horizon.
But then again what you see as steps in the right direction for BDO, GW2, and ESO still aren't what I'm looking for so perhaps why our differing outlook.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The games cater to the players, as they should. Right now, the playerbase is very different from the "days of yore." Gone are the players seeking a living, breathing world to spend their time in, to be replaced by "gimme, gimme, achievements!" console (thus the achievements) players, players who find they are unable to turn off their cell phones for more than 1 minute or two, and the seemingly ADHD players who get bored if they're not clicking something every second of time in the game.
Back in the day, I imagined MMORPGs becoming even more integrated and interesting worlds to live in. I knew graphics would improve, Internet speeds would get better, and computing power would increase. How much or how this would be implemented, I had no clue. I hoped for "something" to help make the games more user friendly but never imagined how far down that road they would take off running at full speed.
Most of all, I imagined MMOs would improve (not "made easier") on the many aspects that appealed to different playstyles like soloing, grouping, questing, dungeon crawling, raiding, crafting, guild building, and most of all social interaction between players (remember when "emotes" stood for a possible character animation?). I'm no glutton for punishment but I also like to feel like I accomplished something with my time in a game other than button mashing the required number of clicks. Many of the UI and tools have been "improvements" in my eyes.
I can't blame the developers or publishers. MMOs grew. Incredibly fast. And the influx of different types of players changed the genre. Now, the 400K players that EQ once boasted is not what developers today shoot for. They saw that 10M+ playerbase that WoW once had and nothing less will do for them now. 300-400K targeted, satisfied, and loyal players * $15/month takes too long to recoup their costs, I guess.
Just my wooden nickel's worth.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I think I have to break the news, but time is a constant. We all have the same amount, measured in the same exact way. What differs is how we chose to spend what time we have.
Is there a lot more "activities" today vying for our allotted time? You bet there is. But there is still 24 hours each and every day. "Free Time" is another thing. Maybe that's what you meant?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
currently enjoying Elite Dangerous
but yes...MMOs not so much
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
(The temptation to ask if you play with your joystick was very strong, but I overcame it)
Whoops, did it again.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon