Well I am happy the issue came to light, ill start passing this whole new article around so more game companies and players become aware starting in Discord Chat because I am sick of some of this game industry too.
It's really not good for us Whales, or the Young / Addict to gaming people.
I guess he's going to legislate on closing all the casino's next, right? Or maybe try to ban State lotteries? Maybe after that, they'll try to stop weekly poker games at someones house?
Whatever his motives (and he claims to be a gamer himself) this will bring more exposure and wider discussion about something that gaming industry execs don't want exposed nor discussed widely... net positive.
Exactly. I'm not one for government regulation for such stuff but if one is concerned then this isn't going to be a detriment.
We'll see. One thing I learned while I was in the Navy, is that it can always get worse.
oh dear ...
Much, MUCH worse... If you want something REALLY messed up, get the government involved in it. In field after field, the more government is involved, the more expensive it is, and the more the quality suffers as well.
Be VERY careful what you wish for in terms of government intervention. *You* may have a clear idea of the problem, and possible solutions, but a politician has entirely different perspectives and motivations.
The results might not be what you are expecting/hoping for.
I don't like loot boxes. I don't like tons of things. I hate people who own trucks but have no need or use for a big truck bed. I hate people who dislike cheese. I hate almost every AAA game because they are shallow and lack any sort of complexity and usually the game part of being a game. But I don't want any of these things to be illegal. I think people who want to dictate how another person has to act, believe, or spend their money by government force are truly the scum of the earth. Honestly, I think this is generational more than anything. Young kids these days think they are smart and know things and are somehow entitled to inflict their beliefs on others. This is tyranny and fascism. Live and let live. If you don't like something just hate it, shake your angry fist at it, give it a piece of your mind, just stop trying to legislate how other people live, act, and believe. Maybe one day I will want to buy loot boxes for some reason. Maybe some day I'll buy a truck or find a food cheese doesn't make better. Maybe I'll buy NWN EE because I want my money to go to money-grubbing con artists like Enron and Bernie Madoff. I want to do as I want and I want everyone else to do what they want, even when I hate what they do.
One of my favorite quotes is, "They very hallmark of liberty is abuse." This means people should always be allowed to do that which you hate and disagree with.
I guess the way I look at is that political involvement is good if it brings attention to the issue and grabs parents by the nose and forces them to look at their kids' spending habits. The so-called iGen is most vulnerable to this stuff since they've grown up thinking microtransactions are the "norm" and think it's "cool" to purchase loot boxes without thinking of long term repercussions.
I'm as skeptical as the next person about politicians. But in this case? I think it's a good thing.
How many kids are actually doing this though? I keep seeing people bring in the kids angle, yet no one I've seen has shown any actual numbers on this. How many kids take their parents CC without permission due to an addiction, how many parents feed such addictions willingly? Without that it seems more of a "compassion tactic" to amplify a certain agenda.
What all of this seems to me is people jumping on board a campaign against something they don't like by using a widely held phobia (gambling)... to heighten their argument regardless of any factual data on how much of a problem this "gambling" issue is. Without such info I want the government as far away as possible.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It seems to me like you have bigger problems over there in America. How is democracy supposed to work if so few trust the people elected to represent you?
My feeling here in the EU is that people are generally glad that the Belgians are looking into lootboxes in games and want a Europe-wide ban.
I guess the way I look at is that political involvement is good if it brings attention to the issue and grabs parents by the nose and forces them to look at their kids' spending habits. The so-called iGen is most vulnerable to this stuff since they've grown up thinking microtransactions are the "norm" and think it's "cool" to purchase loot boxes without thinking of long term repercussions.
I'm as skeptical as the next person about politicians. But in this case? I think it's a good thing.
How many kids are actually doing this though? I keep seeing people bring in the kids angle, yet no one I've seen has shown any actual numbers on this. How many kids take their parents CC without permission due to an addiction, how many parents feed such addictions willingly? Without that it seems more of a "compassion tactic" to amplify a certain agenda.
What all of this seems to me is people jumping on board a campaign against something they don't like by using a widely held phobia (gambling)... to heighten their argument regardless of any factual data on how much of a problem this "gambling" issue is. Without such info I want the government as far away as possible.
People don't usually advertise their addictions and problems..
When was the last time anyone admitted to you that they are a sex addict or had an eating disorder?
What if gambling it games triggers an addiction and they don't even realize they have a problem because it's "just cosmetic" or "just a game"? I'm sure some of the users on this site are addicted to the gambling aspect in games and that's why they are defending it so hard. Ever try taking ____ away from an addict? They'll say anything and everything to prevent ____ from being taken away.
I don't know if this Hawaii guy is being sincere with his crusade or if it's political but taking the gambling part out of games doesn't hurt the consumer at all so what's the problem?
imo, it's America's corporate greed, the virus has spread from wall street to our homes, since when has america shy away from making money out of BS. The usual shareholders expectation, take a look at most of the stock prices for these AAA companies it's valued at over 100, which wasnt the case before...
that's why Amercia is the richest country on this planet, no country even comes close, refering to no of fortune 10 companies here !!!
it wouldnt stop with lootboxes, it will be something else when games move away from traditional source of income to sinister forms of getting more $$$ from their consumers, same as the iphones/ipads being so feature rich that most ordinary people are using only 50% of its function but paying for it's full features ....
I guess he's going to legislate on closing all the casino's next, right? Or maybe try to ban State lotteries? Maybe after that, they'll try to stop weekly poker games at someones house?
I guess the way I look at is that political involvement is good if it brings attention to the issue and grabs parents by the nose and forces them to look at their kids' spending habits. The so-called iGen is most vulnerable to this stuff since they've grown up thinking microtransactions are the "norm" and think it's "cool" to purchase loot boxes without thinking of long term repercussions.
I'm as skeptical as the next person about politicians. But in this case? I think it's a good thing.
How many kids are actually doing this though? I keep seeing people bring in the kids angle, yet no one I've seen has shown any actual numbers on this. How many kids take their parents CC without permission due to an addiction, how many parents feed such addictions willingly? Without that it seems more of a "compassion tactic" to amplify a certain agenda.
How many kids have to do it? For the most part, at least in my opinion and most historically others, it only takes a couple of kids screwing up for things to get to a point where something should be done. And while we don't have overall numbers on the total number of kids who do this, we do know for sure that at least a few did (since I've seen at least five different articles about five different kids who spent more than $10,000 behind they're parents' backs), which IMHO should be more than enough.
That said, a quick google search on "kids spending on free to play games" shows there's at least one study that says kids make up 8% of the spending for mobile games, at least. Considering the whole "70% of the players account for 50% of the revenue" thing, that also means quite a few of those kids are probably whales.
Which means that they're at least exposed to this sort of thing.
Again, how many kids should it take? We already know that it happens to SOME kids, and we already know that nearly ALL kids play games. And the companies already know that these types of practices prey off the same psychology as gambling does, and precedent in the law is already such that gambling is NOT supposed to be a kids thing.
In my opinion and what I'd hope would be most peoples' opinions, that should be more than enough to at least warrant SOME protection against this sort of thing.
I don't like loot boxes. I don't like tons of things. I hate people who own trucks but have no need or use for a big truck bed. I hate people who dislike cheese. I hate almost every AAA game because they are shallow and lack any sort of complexity and usually the game part of being a game. But I don't want any of these things to be illegal. I think people who want to dictate how another person has to act, believe, or spend their money by government force are truly the scum of the earth. Honestly, I think this is generational more than anything. Young kids these days think they are smart and know things and are somehow entitled to inflict their beliefs on others. This is tyranny and fascism. Live and let live. If you don't like something just hate it, shake your angry fist at it, give it a piece of your mind, just stop trying to legislate how other people live, act, and believe. Maybe one day I will want to buy loot boxes for some reason. Maybe some day I'll buy a truck or find a food cheese doesn't make better. Maybe I'll buy NWN EE because I want my money to go to money-grubbing con artists like Enron and Bernie Madoff. I want to do as I want and I want everyone else to do what they want, even when I hate what they do.
One of my favorite quotes is, "They very hallmark of liberty is abuse." This means people should always be allowed to do that which you hate and disagree with.
Honestly, yes. You do and believe what you want. As long as it's within the law. In fact, excessive policing of what someone does / believes is...wrong. "I don't have to agree with you, but I'll fight for your right to speak up / do"
Ben Franklin (the origination of that quote) never said he'd fight for your right to DO something. Just to SAY something. If you fight for peoples' rights to DO something, then you run into the logical extreme of whether or not it's alright to allow people to do things like murder or drunk driving or peeing on the street. Or in this case, to give a more relevant example, marketting tobacco to kids.
I agree, with his premise but anything that becomes a political bandwagon is a concern. The initial proposal can turn into something else and we may get far more regulation than is needed.
But finally a New Hope has dawned...ouch sorry about that one.
Let the government regulate micro-transactions Let the gaming industry regulate micro-transactions
The government wants to exploit for taxation and control. The gaming industry wants to exploit for pure profit.
which is better?
PFFT!
there is a 3rd choice.
Not buy games that are not enjoyable
Ha! Because no one enjoys illegal stuff XD
It's kinda sad reading this thread and seeing how many people have no idea how the world works.
ummmm...the idea behind 'not buying those games' is that those companies wouldnt make money off a stolen game.
and if its possible to steal a game AND do micro-transactions at the same time, if people are willing to do so it just is evidence that people like microtransactions
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
This has been a big problem for some time, it was only a matter of time before some company tried to turn a AAA game into a full on casino. Lootboxes need to die, get this shit out of our games.
I wish people would start to notice that for the most part indies do it for the love of the game, so called AAA firms do it to fuck you.
I have known this for years
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I hope government can make a law to stop RNG loot box and p2w model game.
I doubt government will do anything about P2W.
Gambling (i.e. loot boxes) can and should be regulated. Specific in-game advantages sold for a specific price, however, are not a form of gambling and are unlikely to be regulated.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
I hope government can make a law to stop RNG loot box and p2w model game.
I doubt government will do anything about P2W.
Gambling (i.e. loot boxes) can and should be regulated. Specific in-game advantages sold for a specific price, however, are not a form of gambling and are unlikely to be regulated.
here is the problem.
D&D table top most important tool is dice. your hit points are RNG, your success to hit is RNG, what is in the loot is RNG. RNG is all over the place all games. So....there you are in front of a judge, whip out your dictionary and explain to him what is gambling and what is basic RNG for the game
go..
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I like the quote: 'A key factor in deciding if that line has been crossed is whether in-game items acquired ‘via a game of chance’ can be considered money or money’s worth'
----------------------- The subject is in the long run much larger than gambling because what it is doing from a legal standpoint is asking two question.
1. 'does digital virtual items and XP have monetary value'? 2. Is gambling (regardless of value output) in of itself manipulative or is it techniques around it the manipulation.
very good discussion but for the most part at least here the conversation has been kept at a remedial level of understanding
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
...even so, together we can't even as much as tickle corps. Because unwashed masses are still going to purchase crap and we'll be left as a drop in an ocean.
Sucks, but it's there!
hmmm, but one person's "awesome people" is the next person's "unwashed masses".
Someone is always going to point a finger and say someone else is "less than". I can't get on board with "they buy loot box games therefore they are unwashed masses.". Because "they buy video games and are unwashed masses" is just as valid.
Hm. A most interesting twist. You are quite right. They are still unwashed masses. Come on! You know they are.
Why can't they be "the occasionally bathed masses"?
I think the direction you took this discussion really stinks.
This has been a big problem for some time, it was only a matter of time before some company tried to turn a AAA game into a full on casino. Lootboxes need to die, get this shit out of our games.
I wish people would start to notice that for the most part indies do it for the love of the game, so called AAA firms do it to fuck you.
I have known this for years
You've actually made some great points in this thread and then you throw it all away with a statement like that. Do you actually believe that individual moral character and motivation is defined by their employer or company? I don't.
People are people. They make up workers who are employed by indies, corporates, sole proprietorships, LLCs, and government agencies. Some indies are worse than many AAA studios, some aren't, just like the people employed by them.
yeah...right...everything I said is basically not true because someone is sensitive about my opinion on AAA games?
really? I have to tell you what I see from my side of the universe as someone who plays games that dont have loot boxes, dont have microtransactions, dont have season passes, dont have massive advertising hyper hype, dont have IP titles like Star Wars, dont have pay to win, and dont have high prices for games, dont have games with extreemly limited content
literally EVERYTHING that involves exploitation of consumer from lootboxes to low amounts of content comes directly from AAA farm.
Now..granted that is indeed a different conversation but for the love of fuck sake people! dont you see it? its blindingly obvious.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
It's really not good for us Whales, or the Young / Addict to gaming people.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Much, MUCH worse... If you want something REALLY messed up, get the government involved in it. In field after field, the more government is involved, the more expensive it is, and the more the quality suffers as well.
Be VERY careful what you wish for in terms of government intervention. *You* may have a clear idea of the problem, and possible solutions, but a politician has entirely different perspectives and motivations.
The results might not be what you are expecting/hoping for.
One of my favorite quotes is, "They very hallmark of liberty is abuse." This means people should always be allowed to do that which you hate and disagree with.
What all of this seems to me is people jumping on board a campaign against something they don't like by using a widely held phobia (gambling)... to heighten their argument regardless of any factual data on how much of a problem this "gambling" issue is. Without such info I want the government as far away as possible.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
My feeling here in the EU is that people are generally glad that the Belgians are looking into lootboxes in games and want a Europe-wide ban.
When was the last time anyone admitted to you that they are a sex addict or had an eating disorder?
What if gambling it games triggers an addiction and they don't even realize they have a problem because it's "just cosmetic" or "just a game"? I'm sure some of the users on this site are addicted to the gambling aspect in games and that's why they are defending it so hard. Ever try taking ____ away from an addict? They'll say anything and everything to prevent ____ from being taken away.
I don't know if this Hawaii guy is being sincere with his crusade or if it's political but taking the gambling part out of games doesn't hurt the consumer at all so what's the problem?
that's why Amercia is the richest country on this planet, no country even comes close, refering to no of fortune 10 companies here !!!
it wouldnt stop with lootboxes, it will be something else when games move away from traditional source of income to sinister forms of getting more $$$ from their consumers, same as the iphones/ipads being so feature rich that most ordinary people are using only 50% of its function but paying for it's full features ....
my 2 cents.
That said, a quick google search on "kids spending on free to play games" shows there's at least one study that says kids make up 8% of the spending for mobile games, at least. Considering the whole "70% of the players account for 50% of the revenue" thing, that also means quite a few of those kids are probably whales.
https://venturebeat.com/2015/08/18/kids-gaming-makes-up-nearly-8-of-mobile-game-spending-worldwide/
Here's some other ones from that search that may be of interest.
https://kotaku.com/5988036/kids-reveal-the-real-flaws-of-free-to-play-games
(enough kids did it that there's a class action law suit against Apple about it, which they had to settle)
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/2014/09/kids-app-spending-android-parents-didnt-app-rove
(enough kids did it that there's also a class action law suit against Google about it, which they had to settle)
And just in case it still needed to be said, two studies that say that "nearly every kid plays video games"
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=5817835
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=5817835
Which means that they're at least exposed to this sort of thing.
Again, how many kids should it take? We already know that it happens to SOME kids, and we already know that nearly ALL kids play games. And the companies already know that these types of practices prey off the same psychology as gambling does, and precedent in the law is already such that gambling is NOT supposed to be a kids thing.
In my opinion and what I'd hope would be most peoples' opinions, that should be more than enough to at least warrant SOME protection against this sort of thing.
But finally a New Hope has dawned...ouch sorry about that one.
and if its possible to steal a game AND do micro-transactions at the same time, if people are willing to do so it just is evidence that people like microtransactions
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I have known this for years
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I doubt government will do anything about P2W.
Gambling (i.e. loot boxes) can and should be regulated. Specific in-game advantages sold for a specific price, however, are not a form of gambling and are unlikely to be regulated.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
D&D table top most important tool is dice. your hit points are RNG, your success to hit is RNG, what is in the loot is RNG.
RNG is all over the place all games.
So....there you are in front of a judge, whip out your dictionary and explain to him what is gambling and what is basic RNG for the game
go..
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
'A key factor in deciding if that line has been crossed is whether in-game items acquired ‘via a game of chance’ can be considered money or money’s worth'
-----------------------
The subject is in the long run much larger than gambling because what it is doing from a legal standpoint is asking two question.
1. 'does digital virtual items and XP have monetary value'?
2. Is gambling (regardless of value output) in of itself manipulative or is it techniques around it the manipulation.
very good discussion but for the most part at least here the conversation has been kept at a remedial level of understanding
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
really?
I have to tell you what I see from my side of the universe as someone who plays games that dont have loot boxes, dont have microtransactions, dont have season passes, dont have massive advertising hyper hype, dont have IP titles like Star Wars, dont have pay to win, and dont have high prices for games, dont have games with extreemly limited content
literally EVERYTHING that involves exploitation of consumer from lootboxes to low amounts of content comes directly from AAA farm.
Now..granted that is indeed a different conversation but for the love of fuck sake people! dont you see it? its blindingly obvious.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me