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(updated!) Authorities looking at regulating RNG as gambling

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  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610
    edited November 2017
    According to this site there was some confusion in the translation and the Belgium Government in fact don't class it as gambling yet. Still investigating.

    PC Gamer have updated the story aswell.
    CrazKanuk

    image
  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,292
    immodium said:
    According to this site there was some confusion in the translation and the Belgium Government in fact don't class it as gambling.
    Taking that one step further. Here is the actual document produced:

    https://ds1.static.rtbf.be/uploader/pdf/d/d/b/rtbfinfo_5c742f9b8996afe274e39ad9b4acb453.pdf

    If you read through the document, you will see that they actually conclude that lootboxes are NOT gambling, and recommend public controls such as:

    More Transparency about the odds.
    Additional label of Lootboxes on the PEGI system
    (as well as a suggestion for a label of Microtransactions)

    There is also some very good discussion of skin betting.  I am going to have to do some more research on the specifics that they used to distinguish the two.

    immodium
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855
    heerobya said:
    Let's be real here.

    Gaming is cheaper than ever relative to inflation, and games COST more to make then ever.

    DLC, loot boxes... industry does what industry needs to.

    Want to see DLC and micro transactions go away? Expect to pay $80-90+ (US) for a now $60 game.

    "I’ve made the argument over the last few years that games are essentially cheaper than they’ve ever been. An NES game in 1990 cost, on average, about $50. That’s $89 in 2013 money. Your $70 N64 cartridges in 1998 would require the equivalent of $100 today. Heck, the $50 PlayStation 2 game you bought in 2005 is worth $60, the exact price of a typical retail game in 2013. This isn't to say that salaries (or hourly pay) have kept up with inflation and the cost-of-living -- it decidedly hasn't -- but it is to say that, dollar-to-dollar over the past 35 years, gaming hardware and software is generally cheaper than ever."

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-power
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/469862/hawaiian-legislators-call-ea-loot-boxes-a-predatory-practice-star-wars-battlefront-ii-mmorpg/p3#2UyJTeeZYjhyUPxM.99
    I'd rather pay $80 for a $60 game, rather than $60+$200 for an $80 game.
  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,411
    immodium said:
    According to this site there was some confusion in the translation and the Belgium Government in fact don't class it as gambling.
    Taking that one step further. Here is the actual document produced:

    https://ds1.static.rtbf.be/uploader/pdf/d/d/b/rtbfinfo_5c742f9b8996afe274e39ad9b4acb453.pdf

    If you read through the document, you will see that they actually conclude that lootboxes are NOT gambling, and recommend public controls such as:

    More Transparency about the odds.
    Additional label of Lootboxes on the PEGI system
    (as well as a suggestion for a label of Microtransactions)

    There is also some very good discussion of skin betting.  I am going to have to do some more research on the specifics that they used to distinguish the two.


    That is exactly what should happen.  Then the customers makes games fail or succeed.
  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,411
    Now where was that post about people having to eat crow???  >:)
  • OldKingLogOldKingLog Member RarePosts: 555
    immodium said:
    According to this site there was some confusion in the translation and the Belgium Government in fact don't class it as gambling.
    Taking that one step further. Here is the actual document produced:

    https://ds1.static.rtbf.be/uploader/pdf/d/d/b/rtbfinfo_5c742f9b8996afe274e39ad9b4acb453.pdf

    If you read through the document, you will see that they actually conclude that lootboxes are NOT gambling, and recommend public controls such as:

    More Transparency about the odds.
    Additional label of Lootboxes on the PEGI system
    (as well as a suggestion for a label of Microtransactions)

    There is also some very good discussion of skin betting.  I am going to have to do some more research on the specifics that they used to distinguish the two.

    So its not gambling, but yet they are looking to regulate it like contests, sweepstakes, lotteries, etc, you know ...gambling. You're just splitting hairs.
    Horusra said:
    Now where was that post about people having to eat crow???  >:)
    Looks like crow is still on the menu.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    immodium said:
    According to this site there was some confusion in the translation and the Belgium Government in fact don't class it as gambling.
    Taking that one step further. Here is the actual document produced:

    https://ds1.static.rtbf.be/uploader/pdf/d/d/b/rtbfinfo_5c742f9b8996afe274e39ad9b4acb453.pdf

    If you read through the document, you will see that they actually conclude that lootboxes are NOT gambling, and recommend public controls such as:

    More Transparency about the odds.
    Additional label of Lootboxes on the PEGI system
    (as well as a suggestion for a label of Microtransactions)

    There is also some very good discussion of skin betting.  I am going to have to do some more research on the specifics that they used to distinguish the two.

    So its not gambling, but yet they are looking to regulate it like contests, sweepstakes, lotteries, etc, you know ...gambling. You're just splitting hairs.
    Horusra said:
    Now where was that post about people having to eat crow???  >:)
    Looks like crow is still on the menu.
    that would not be splitting hairs because the regulations would be different.

    when you start to suggest making laws are a good things, getting specifics and being specific is important

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Your post that ignited this series of responses had no point; it was simply your misinterpretation of an EU regulation that you (most erroneously) thought had some application to the overall topic at hand.

    You would've retained the image of a better understanding of both topics had you stuck with the LOL trolling.
    ...you say all that after you repeatedly demonstrated a lack of understanding the point you are so fiercely try to attack.

    Your lack of comprehension and reasoning ability does not make other people 'dim witted'.

    Honestly, if one wants to look smart, they can just remain silent and let you do the talking....
    MadFrenchieIselin
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,885
    If it walks like a duck , quacks like a duck .....

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    edited November 2017
    Gdemami said:
    Next news will be Kinder Surprise banned in Belgium...

    That is same stupid line of thinking people are supporting here, and politicians banking on it.
    Yep, then they'll have to ban those little eggs that have toys or goo in them... We can't allow those precious children to end up with just goo. The real problem here has been people disliking monetary practices yet still paying for the product anyway.. Had all of these folks planted their feet firmly to begin with, shit wouldn't have gone this far... yet here we are... What we accept and pay for, is what drives markets...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Distopia said:
    The real problem here has been people disliking monetary practices yet still paying for the product anyway.. 
    People do not pay for things they dislike...

    The 'real' problem is your agenda being pushed forward using bad logic.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Gdemami said:
    Distopia said:
    The real problem here has been people disliking monetary practices yet still paying for the product anyway.. 
    People do not pay for things they dislike...

    The 'real' problem is your agenda being pushed forward using bad logic.
    If people have a problem with Micro transactions, yet still pay into products that are supported by them, yes they are buying products they do not like... 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited November 2017
    Distopia said:
    If people have a problem with Micro transactions, yet still pay into products that are supported by them, yes they are buying products they do not like... 
    eww....so common faulty inductive reasoning on these boards.

    If people pay for microtransactions, they have no problem with them.
  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,149
    heerobya said:
    Let's be real here.

    Gaming is cheaper than ever relative to inflation, and games COST more to make then ever.

    DLC, loot boxes... industry does what industry needs to.

    Want to see DLC and micro transactions go away? Expect to pay $80-90+ (US) for a now $60 game.

    "I’ve made the argument over the last few years that games are essentially cheaper than they’ve ever been. An NES game in 1990 cost, on average, about $50. That’s $89 in 2013 money. Your $70 N64 cartridges in 1998 would require the equivalent of $100 today. Heck, the $50 PlayStation 2 game you bought in 2005 is worth $60, the exact price of a typical retail game in 2013. This isn't to say that salaries (or hourly pay) have kept up with inflation and the cost-of-living -- it decidedly hasn't -- but it is to say that, dollar-to-dollar over the past 35 years, gaming hardware and software is generally cheaper than ever."

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-power
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/469862/hawaiian-legislators-call-ea-loot-boxes-a-predatory-practice-star-wars-battlefront-ii-mmorpg/p3#2UyJTeeZYjhyUPxM.99
    This argument misses out on the fact that there are likely 300% more gamers. . or double that even depending on what you look at and digital distribution compared to the cost of distribution before.  Companies are making more money. . not less and that happened before DLC / loot boxes.

    Yes, things could cost more to make BUT they are not having the same cost to get to the many many more customers around the entire globe.  How many people bought Super Mario bros 2 on release compared to how many will buy Star wars battle front 2?   

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Gdemami said:
    Distopia said:
    If people have a problem with Micro transactions, yet still pay into products that are supported by them, yes they are buying products they do not like... 
    eww....faulty inductive reasoning.

    If people pay for microtransactions, they have no problems with them.
    One would think, yet they buy into products with them, and do nothing but complain about them afterward....

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Distopia said:
    One would think
    One would think false, explained above.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Gdemami said:
    Distopia said:
    One would think
    One would think false, explained above.
    You're an odd duck Gdem... Can't even see when someone is actually agreeing with you...LMAO...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,149
    edited November 2017
    Aethaeryn said:
    heerobya said:
    Let's be real here.

    Gaming is cheaper than ever relative to inflation, and games COST more to make then ever.

    DLC, loot boxes... industry does what industry needs to.

    Want to see DLC and micro transactions go away? Expect to pay $80-90+ (US) for a now $60 game.

    "I’ve made the argument over the last few years that games are essentially cheaper than they’ve ever been. An NES game in 1990 cost, on average, about $50. That’s $89 in 2013 money. Your $70 N64 cartridges in 1998 would require the equivalent of $100 today. Heck, the $50 PlayStation 2 game you bought in 2005 is worth $60, the exact price of a typical retail game in 2013. This isn't to say that salaries (or hourly pay) have kept up with inflation and the cost-of-living -- it decidedly hasn't -- but it is to say that, dollar-to-dollar over the past 35 years, gaming hardware and software is generally cheaper than ever."

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-power
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/469862/hawaiian-legislators-call-ea-loot-boxes-a-predatory-practice-star-wars-battlefront-ii-mmorpg/p3#2UyJTeeZYjhyUPxM.99
    This argument misses out on the fact that there are likely 300% more gamers. . or double that even depending on what you look at and digital distribution compared to the cost of distribution before.  Companies are making more money. . not less and that happened before DLC / loot boxes.

    Yes, things could cost more to make BUT they are not having the same cost to get to the many many more customers around the entire globe.  How many people bought Super Mario bros 2 on release compared to how many will buy Star wars battle front 2?   
    Here you go.  Look at the NA sales vs world. . and the numbers.   
    SWBattlefront  14 million copies by May 2016 
    Nintento and other console makers also had to recover R&D costs. . consoles now are based on already existing PC parts. 

    SUper mario bros 2 (mario has the one of the best sales records in history and there wasn't much competition)

    North America:5.39m72.2%
    + Europe:1.18m15.8%
    + Japan:0.70m9.4%
    + Rest of the World:0.19m2.6%

    My point is that you can argue inflation on its own but you can't consider the impact in money making without considering sales and distribution.  

    Saying games are more expensive than ever to make is misleading when you don't say that  the companies are making more than ever on them.

    EDIT:  I am late to the party on this post :)
    Gdemami

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Aethaeryn said:
    Aethaeryn said:
    heerobya said:
    Let's be real here.

    Gaming is cheaper than ever relative to inflation, and games COST more to make then ever.

    DLC, loot boxes... industry does what industry needs to.

    Want to see DLC and micro transactions go away? Expect to pay $80-90+ (US) for a now $60 game.

    "I’ve made the argument over the last few years that games are essentially cheaper than they’ve ever been. An NES game in 1990 cost, on average, about $50. That’s $89 in 2013 money. Your $70 N64 cartridges in 1998 would require the equivalent of $100 today. Heck, the $50 PlayStation 2 game you bought in 2005 is worth $60, the exact price of a typical retail game in 2013. This isn't to say that salaries (or hourly pay) have kept up with inflation and the cost-of-living -- it decidedly hasn't -- but it is to say that, dollar-to-dollar over the past 35 years, gaming hardware and software is generally cheaper than ever."

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-power
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/469862/hawaiian-legislators-call-ea-loot-boxes-a-predatory-practice-star-wars-battlefront-ii-mmorpg/p3#2UyJTeeZYjhyUPxM.99
    This argument misses out on the fact that there are likely 300% more gamers. . or double that even depending on what you look at and digital distribution compared to the cost of distribution before.  Companies are making more money. . not less and that happened before DLC / loot boxes.

    Yes, things could cost more to make BUT they are not having the same cost to get to the many many more customers around the entire globe.  How many people bought Super Mario bros 2 on release compared to how many will buy Star wars battle front 2?   
    Here you go.  Look at the NA sales vs world. . and the numbers.   
    SWBattlefront  14 million copies by May 2016 
    Nintento and other console makers also had to recover R&D costs. . consoles now are based on already existing PC parts. 

    SUper mario bros 2 (mario has the one of the best sales records in history and there wasn't much competition)

    North America:5.39m72.2%
    + Europe:1.18m15.8%
    + Japan:0.70m9.4%
    + Rest of the World:0.19m2.6%

    My point is that you can argue inflation on its own but you can't consider the impact in money making without considering sales and distribution.  

    Saying games are more expensive than ever to make is misleading when you don't say that  the companies are making more than ever on them.

    EDIT:  I am late to the party on this post :)
    The problem with your argument is until a game hits peak sales any profit is speculation (it's not a guarantee)... Costs however are not probable in that way.... They're pretty much set in stone. That's why inflation matters...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Distopia said:
    You're an odd duck Gdem... Can't even see when someone is actually agreeing with you...LMAO...
    /sigh

    On these boards, I would thought that is actually good thing...
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,882
    edited November 2017
    kitarad said:
    If it walks like a duck , quacks like a duck .....
    We're liable to spend 16 pages arguing on whether it's a cow.
     
  • HeraseHerase Member RarePosts: 993
    heerobya said:
    Let's be real here.

    Gaming is cheaper than ever relative to inflation, and games COST more to make then ever.

    DLC, loot boxes... industry does what industry needs to.

    Want to see DLC and micro transactions go away? Expect to pay $80-90+ (US) for a now $60 game.

    "I’ve made the argument over the last few years that games are essentially cheaper than they’ve ever been. An NES game in 1990 cost, on average, about $50. That’s $89 in 2013 money. Your $70 N64 cartridges in 1998 would require the equivalent of $100 today. Heck, the $50 PlayStation 2 game you bought in 2005 is worth $60, the exact price of a typical retail game in 2013. This isn't to say that salaries (or hourly pay) have kept up with inflation and the cost-of-living -- it decidedly hasn't -- but it is to say that, dollar-to-dollar over the past 35 years, gaming hardware and software is generally cheaper than ever."

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-power
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/469862/hawaiian-legislators-call-ea-loot-boxes-a-predatory-practice-star-wars-battlefront-ii-mmorpg/p3#2UyJTeeZYjhyUPxM.99
    EA already said removing the lootboxes would have no effect on them making the money back. So the mictotransactions, in this case and a few others, aren't a need, it's a WANT


    Gdemami
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Gdemami said:
    Your post that ignited this series of responses had no point; it was simply your misinterpretation of an EU regulation that you (most erroneously) thought had some application to the overall topic at hand.

    You would've retained the image of a better understanding of both topics had you stuck with the LOL trolling.
    ...you say all that after you repeatedly demonstrated a lack of understanding the point you are so fiercely try to attack.

    Your lack of comprehension and reasoning ability does not make other people 'dim witted'.

    Honestly, if one wants to look smart, they can just remain silent and let you do the talking....
    Keep trying that deflection technique, bud.

    It's funny to watch you squirming to reframe your own post. :D
    GdemamiVengeSunsoar

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Now dev has to find new ways to have the whales spend lots of money. Or may be just go back to sell virtual sword + 10.


  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855
    Now dev has to find new ways to have the whales spend lots of money. Or may be just go back to sell virtual sword + 10.


    They'll still build gambling in, but it will be more indirect. Like potions or some one time use thing that increases the RNG factor for success on some attempt to upgrade something.
    Gdemami
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