to the OP people dont have a say in anything the gaming companies decided to go free to play STOP blaming people for all the crap in the world its the governments that create all the sh*t in the world and their puppets!
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I've always said that f2p games are a curse on the genre.
We all love our demons and scapegoats.
The funny thing is what was originally killing the genre wasn't f2p, it was a forced subscription model.
That's just straight up bullshit.
Everything on the left side of this graph is growth with sub model.
What we clearly see is that the highest rate of growth was vanilla.
I think the growth really have to do with expanding WoW outside of North America and Europe.
Only Half at best is accounted for by Expansion outside N.A. and EU.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Sure .. but there are so few that they don't matter much.
Sub only is rare, but many games offer optional subs of varying degrees of "encouragement" or benefit.
Gone but not forgotten, my, my, hey, hey, subscriptions are here to stay....
Sure .. so? sub as an option is still f2p if you can play for free. It is pretty irrelevant of whether someone else play a sub, or buy a virtual sword, as long as it is free for me.
But that's the point your days of playing for free and numbered, and counting down to zero.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sure .. but there are so few that they don't matter much.
Sub only is rare, but many games offer optional subs of varying degrees of "encouragement" or benefit.
Gone but not forgotten, my, my, hey, hey, subscriptions are here to stay....
Sure .. so? sub as an option is still f2p if you can play for free. It is pretty irrelevant of whether someone else play a sub, or buy a virtual sword, as long as it is free for me.
But that's the point your days of playing for free and numbered, and counting down to zero.
Lol .. are you willing to bet that there will be no more f2p games soon? You know they are taking shares from sub-only games, right?
OP wants to be the Paul Revere of gaming. A patent doesn't mean anything, it is just a way for them to use legally. If they don't like a certain online game cause it does something game X also does they have a patent to try to push to prove fault. That's all it is, the sky isn't falling.
"The alarm raised by the three riders
successfully allowed the militia to confront the British troops in
Concord, and then harry them all the way back to Boston"
If I go with your thinking.....the OP warned about F2P...F2P is here...and now the fight is on to keep it at bay....personally I think the sky has fallen.
"Henny Penny, more commonly known in
the United States as Chicken Little and sometimes as Chicken Licken, is a
folk tale with a moral in the form of a cumulative tale about a chicken
who believes the world is coming to an end"
Pay $80 for the base game, then pay more to unlock content that is developed but not release with the base game, then pay more for cosmetic items, then pay for QoL items.
Real F2P games you don't pay for the base game and then all the cash shop stuff. This hybrid pay for a watered down version + cash shop is a very greedy western version of F2P and it seems much worse.
Sure .. but there are so few that they don't matter much.
Sub only is rare, but many games offer optional subs of varying degrees of "encouragement" or benefit.
Gone but not forgotten, my, my, hey, hey, subscriptions are here to stay....
Sure .. so? sub as an option is still f2p if you can play for free. It is pretty irrelevant of whether someone else play a sub, or buy a virtual sword, as long as it is free for me.
Yep, there's a big difference between "you have to pay a sub to play" and "if you pay a sub you can get extra perks". The latter is just another form of a cash shop but players are apparently not bright enough to figure out that little marketing gem.
what people in this thread should start to notice by now is that their microcosm social universe is clearly not the majority. If it wasnt working, these companies would not do it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I have never supported f2p or p2w or loot boxes with a single dime.
I have my subscription to EQ and that + expansions is the only payment method I have ever used.
I've recognized that slippery slope of micro-transactions on day one and watched the masses fall for it in despair. There is nothing just one person can do aside from voting with their wallet. Unfortunately, the majority voted in favor of.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Personally, I think it's the chickens come home to roost. It might even be a good thing.
For too long, power gamers have been saying "we don't mind the cash store, so long as you limit it to fluff like pets, skins, and costumes."
More or less, "the cash store is alright, so long as we stick it to the roleplayers and other fluffernutters like Beatnik59, since we don't care about roleplay or roleplayers anyway."
But there was one crucial mistake in all of this: they made the games so power gamer friendly, they took out any and all reasons for RPers to want to hang out there.
Text boxes? Gone. Bases and structures? Gone. RP tools? Nerfed. Emotes? Pointless and contextless.
And so, what they were left with is a bunch of costumes, props, skins, and other stuff that roleplayers really like in the cash shop, with no roleplayers to buy them. Meanwhile, xXDEATHDEALERXx is playing on the developer's dime, maybe with the help of gold farmers or powerlevelling services, but contributing nearly nothing to the developer's cash store.
And, what's worse, when they grind through the content, they then, en masse, come to forums like this one, to complain that the game is too easy, too short, and endgame sucks.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Personally, I think it's the chickens come home to roost. It might even be a good thing.
For too long, power gamers have been saying "we don't mind the cash store, so long as you limit it to fluff like pets, skins, and costumes."
More or less, "the cash store is alright, so long as we stick it to the roleplayers and other fluffernutters like Beatnik59, since we don't care about roleplay or roleplayers anyway."
But there was one crucial mistake in all of this: they made the games so power gamer friendly, they took out any and all reasons for RPers to want to hang out there.
Text boxes? Gone. Bases and structures? Gone. RP tools? Nerfed. Emotes? Pointless and contextless.
And so, what they were left with is a bunch of costumes, props, skins, and other stuff that roleplayers really like in the cash shop, with no roleplayers to buy them. Meanwhile, xXDEATHDEALERXx is playing on the developer's dime, maybe with the help of gold farmers or powerlevelling services, but contributing nearly nothing to the developer's cash store.
And, what's worse, when they grind through the content, they then, en masse, come to forums like this one, to complain that the game is too easy, too short, and endgame sucks.
That is excellent observation and good points. To be clear I assuming those things are gone in such games as you say because I havent been playing MMOs (and I wouldnt be surprised)
makes me wonder who is buying these items, I dont see traditional role players doing it for sure
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
And so, what they were left with is a bunch of costumes, props, skins, and other stuff that roleplayers really like in the cash shop, with no roleplayers to buy them. Meanwhile, xXDEATHDEALERXx is playing on the developer's dime, maybe with the help of gold farmers or powerlevelling services, but contributing nearly nothing to the developer's cash store.
By this theory, Overwatch should crash and burn, right? You don't RP in a shooter anyway. So why are people spending money on that game?
I don't know why whales buy things, but they do .. so you are clearly wrong. BTW, games only need whales to contribute. Others can free-ride.
Personally, I think it's the chickens come home to roost. It might even be a good thing.
For too long, power gamers have been saying "we don't mind the cash store, so long as you limit it to fluff like pets, skins, and costumes."
More or less, "the cash store is alright, so long as we stick it to the roleplayers and other fluffernutters like Beatnik59, since we don't care about roleplay or roleplayers anyway."
But there was one crucial mistake in all of this: they made the games so power gamer friendly, they took out any and all reasons for RPers to want to hang out there.
Text boxes? Gone. Bases and structures? Gone. RP tools? Nerfed. Emotes? Pointless and contextless.
And so, what they were left with is a bunch of costumes, props, skins, and other stuff that roleplayers really like in the cash shop, with no roleplayers to buy them. Meanwhile, xXDEATHDEALERXx is playing on the developer's dime, maybe with the help of gold farmers or powerlevelling services, but contributing nearly nothing to the developer's cash store.
And, what's worse, when they grind through the content, they then, en masse, come to forums like this one, to complain that the game is too easy, too short, and endgame sucks.
I think you are placing far too much blame on "power gamers".
For starters, "power gamers" (elite / hardcore / whatever) have been the most most vocal group opposing F2P / cash shops. The whole business model is designed to attract non-power gamers.
Secondly, blame the Asian market for cash shops. In most Asian countries, F2P / cash shops is the normal, expected business model. It is much more blatant P2W than it is over here, but we ended up with cash shops not just because western devs wanted more money, but because eastern MMOs got imported and western devs didn't want to maintain two business models.
Third, the accepted compromise in the west is "as long as it doesn't affect gameplay". Who cares what is in the cash shop as long as it doesn't affect the way the game is played? That is why most stuff is cosmetic items and mounts - it's not because devs are trying to fleece the RP community, it is simply what the devs can get away with. Sadly, this compromise is slowly being eroded, but even so as soon as a dev starts introducing P2W (like SWBF2 lootboxes) the community creates a commotion.
Fourth, "they made the games so power gamer friendly"....wtf? The opposite is true. There has been a general trend within MMOs, starting with WoW, of dumbing down games and making them more accessible to the masses. Gone are the complicated classes and mechanics. Gone is most of the challenge. This is not what power gamers want!
Finally, can you blame us for complaining? I know the roleplay community has had a rough time of it with most MMOs ignoring that section of the community, but that is not the fault of power gamers. Almost all sections of the community get ignored - power gamers, roleplayers, crafters, socialisers. The only section that is served well is the casual solo player. And that is because that section is by far the largest section of the community and generates the vast majority of income for developers.
I think you are placing far too much blame on "power gamers".
For starters, "power gamers" (elite / hardcore / whatever) have been the most most vocal group opposing F2P / cash shops. The whole business model is designed to attract non-power gamers.
Secondly, blame the Asian market for cash shops. In most Asian countries, F2P / cash shops is the normal, expected business model. It is much more blatant P2W than it is over here, but we ended up with cash shops not just because western devs wanted more money, but because eastern MMOs got imported and western devs didn't want to maintain two business models.
Third, the accepted compromise in the west is "as long as it doesn't affect gameplay". Who cares what is in the cash shop as long as it doesn't affect the way the game is played? That is why most stuff is cosmetic items and mounts - it's not because devs are trying to fleece the RP community, it is simply what the devs can get away with. Sadly, this compromise is slowly being eroded, but even so as soon as a dev starts introducing P2W (like SWBF2 lootboxes) the community creates a commotion.
Fourth, "they made the games so power gamer friendly"....wtf? The opposite is true. There has been a general trend within MMOs, starting with WoW, of dumbing down games and making them more accessible to the masses. Gone are the complicated classes and mechanics. Gone is most of the challenge. This is not what power gamers want!
Finally, can you blame us for complaining? I know the roleplay community has had a rough time of it with most MMOs ignoring that section of the community, but that is not the fault of power gamers. Almost all sections of the community get ignored - power gamers, roleplayers, crafters, socialisers. The only section that is served well is the casual solo player. And that is because that section is by far the largest section of the community and generates the vast majority of income for developers.
I agree, powergamers are an endangered species today. I can't say I'm all that sad to see them go, given that they pretty much made roleplayers extinct in the wild, while they had their run.
I see the protests from them daily against FTP and casuals; it's clear that they aren't so well liked anymore from the bean counters, who are running around trying to placate these gamers with different values.
Frankly, as a roleplayer, I have no dog in this hunt, because merely getting rid of FTP is not going to give me back my rich worlds, my roleplay-centric gameplay, the non-combat emphasis, and the world building.
If anything, getting rid of FTP is only going to revert this genre back to the days of forced grouping on ventrillo with marathon raids to acquire boots of pwnage. And I found that game to be shallow.
To give the people here a sense of perspective, I recall there was a time in this genre, long ago, when it was not uncommon to find a player who would pay $15 a month to hang out at the bar roleplaying for a half an hour on average a day, and thinking that was time and money well spent. Yes, such people existed. In fact, most of the people I met were these kinds of people.
But that was when the games were about different things, with combat almost existing as a sideshow, rather than the main show. It's hard to think of that kind of game today, mainly because we've spent the last fifteen years or so talking about how those were bad games, suffering from bad game design.
Perhaps today's casual, FTPer might even understand why, for example, a player would find hanging out at the bar playing a character enjoyable, or meaningful, or satisfying. The truth is, they've never seen it, because by the time the publishers designed games for them, that game I talked about was long gone.
The reasons those are gone is because we started to get a new kind of player interested in these games around 2000 or so, fresh from the Counterstrike servers with headsets in their ears, who really didn't "get" what these games were about or why we played them over other multiplayer games. They wanted combat systems. They wanted these games to be about "skill," which usually involved min/maxing loot out of some combat engine. They wanted these games to be about "teamwork," which usually involved coordinating a clan who min/maxed in tandem to pull loot out of some combat engine.
And, most of all, they saw anything that didn't correspond to these wants as "wasting developer time," and the devs agreed, mainly because the newer devs were operating from a different set of assumptions than the first devs in this game format.
For whatever reasons, these players won, players like xXDEATHDEALERXx. And so SWG got nerfed. Games on the drawing board got the WoW treatment.
And, for awhile, they got what they wanted. And the devs got what they wanted: a game that appealed to powergamers, who were going to bring in boatloads of cash.
...Or did they?
See, I happen to agree that it's natural that combat players are going to say "as long as it doesn't affect gameplay." But the "gameplay" for them was only ever about min/maxing and combat, because that's all that really matters for most of the people who hung around the last fifteen years or so, mainly white or asian males between 13 and 30. But I remember when housewives played these things. Middle-aged professionals played these things. Academics researched these things as a whole new paradigm in social relations. The appeal of these games were, at one time, much broader based than possible today.
But what, exactly, did these powergamers do to make their min/maxing, their marathon raids, their clan-centric and combat-centric gameplay rewarding to the devs? What did they provide the devs in exchange for the provision that the devs can do whatever they want with the cash store, ""as long as it doesn't affect combat abilities gameplay?"
Apparently, not so much that the devs didn't want to pursue a brighter, shinier, newer kind of player, who really didn't care about that aging concept that "combat ability should be earned through gameplay." See, those folks will play whether or not the gun of pwn is in the cash store or not. Old xXDEATHDEALERXx just thinks the thought is antithetical to everything MMOs stand for.
I can't say I'm upset that xXDEATHDEALERXx is outraged. See, it was folks like him who persuaded SOE to turn SWG into a WoW clone in 2005. It was folks like him who persuaded NCSoft to shut down CoH. Perhaps it wasn't him, specifically, but the thought of legions of folks like him pouring onto the servers like a river, headset in ear, buying everything in sight. But he just never did. He poured into WoW, but hardly anywhere else.
But I do understand why xXDEATHDEALERXx is outraged. It can be a hard thing when something you enjoy is taken away from you and given to someone the devs like better. It can be a hard thing when your gamebreakers are considered good MMO design, and the only choice they give you is to either do the things you don't like, or give up on this genre.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Finally, can you blame us for complaining? I know the roleplay community has had a rough time of it with most MMOs ignoring that section of the community, but that is not the fault of power gamers. Almost all sections of the community get ignored - power gamers, roleplayers, crafters, socialisers. The only section that is served well is the casual solo player. And that is because that section is by far the largest section of the community and generates the vast majority of income for developers.
as if complaining works. But i suppose it is psychologically satisfying, and it is certainly your prerogative on a public forum to air whatever opinion you have.
But blaming companies to cater to their larger segment of customers? You know that is what commercial companies do, right? You may as well as EA to turn non-profit.
I still disagree with everything you stand for. But I cannot help but admire your consistency.
When all of us have blown away or blown to dust, you shall be here, and you shall be nariusseldon. It is only because you are you, that we are us.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Finally, can you blame us for complaining? I know the roleplay community has had a rough time of it with most MMOs ignoring that section of the community, but that is not the fault of power gamers. Almost all sections of the community get ignored - power gamers, roleplayers, crafters, socialisers. The only section that is served well is the casual solo player. And that is because that section is by far the largest section of the community and generates the vast majority of income for developers.
as if complaining works. But i suppose it is psychologically satisfying, and it is certainly your prerogative on a public forum to air whatever opinion you have.
But blaming companies to cater to their larger segment of customers? You know that is what commercial companies do, right? You may as well as EA to turn non-profit.
Why ask them to turn non-profit, when you can just cause such a shitstorm that Disney steps in and tells them to clean up their shit?
Consider this if you will...an example being WoW. You pat $19 for World of Warcraft, then spend $15/month say for 4 yrs. Let's not forget the expansion every 2 yrs, which usually costs $50. BAMM! you have just paid $820.00 for a game. go on, drive on down to Walmart and fork out $820.00 for a game, the wife will divorce you, not to mention having to take out a 2nd mortgage on the house to buy the game at that price. F2p may try to gank you with an item mall, but that is by choice.
You think its by choice, but in alot of these games if you wanna really enjoy it your going to have to spend probally 50-100 a month minimum for some of them. No f2p game is actually free, its more free to try, then pay out the ass if you wanna enjoy/compete in it. You especally feel this in the mobile game market, alot of them give you a ton of stuff at the start thats normally cash shop, they do this to hook you, once your hooked that stuff gets cut off at a certan point and alot of people that got used to how it was end up tossing money at it. Its actually kinda smart in a way, its like giving a kid a toy then suddendly taking it away until they do something you want them to do, sadly it works even on adults, you just need to change the toy.
I know many of you claim f2p isn't free, but i am here to tell you that you can play every single one of them for free......Just because you cant doesnt mean everyone cant.
What I like to do with these chintzy korean mmos is get the free stuff, mince around a bit and then leave until another event pops up to give me more free stuff. The market is oversaturated and they're all competing for returning and new players so it usually doesn't take that long for this to occur.
I feel like some hobo trawling the supermarket for free samples but I feel content knowing the opportunism goes both ways here.
I agree, powergamers are an endangered species today. I can't say I'm all that sad to see them go, given that they pretty much made roleplayers extinct in the wild, while they had their run.
I see the protests from them daily against FTP and casuals; it's clear that they aren't so well liked anymore from the bean counters, who are running around trying to placate these gamers with different values.
Frankly, as a roleplayer, I have no dog in this hunt, because merely getting rid of FTP is not going to give me back my rich worlds, my roleplay-centric gameplay, the non-combat emphasis, and the world building.
If anything, getting rid of FTP is only going to revert this genre back to the days of forced grouping on ventrillo with marathon raids to acquire boots of pwnage. And I found that game to be shallow.
To give the people here a sense of perspective, I recall there was a time in this genre, long ago, when it was not uncommon to find a player who would pay $15 a month to hang out at the bar roleplaying for a half an hour on average a day, and thinking that was time and money well spent. Yes, such people existed. In fact, most of the people I met were these kinds of people.
But that was when the games were about different things, with combat almost existing as a sideshow, rather than the main show. It's hard to think of that kind of game today, mainly because we've spent the last fifteen years or so talking about how those were bad games, suffering from bad game design.
Perhaps today's casual, FTPer might even understand why, for example, a player would find hanging out at the bar playing a character enjoyable, or meaningful, or satisfying. The truth is, they've never seen it, because by the time the publishers designed games for them, that game I talked about was long gone.
The reasons those are gone is because we started to get a new kind of player interested in these games around 2000 or so, fresh from the Counterstrike servers with headsets in their ears, who really didn't "get" what these games were about or why we played them over other multiplayer games. They wanted combat systems. They wanted these games to be about "skill," which usually involved min/maxing loot out of some combat engine. They wanted these games to be about "teamwork," which usually involved coordinating a clan who min/maxed in tandem to pull loot out of some combat engine.
And, most of all, they saw anything that didn't correspond to these wants as "wasting developer time," and the devs agreed, mainly because the newer devs were operating from a different set of assumptions than the first devs in this game format.
For whatever reasons, these players won, players like xXDEATHDEALERXx. And so SWG got nerfed. Games on the drawing board got the WoW treatment.
And, for awhile, they got what they wanted. And the devs got what they wanted: a game that appealed to powergamers, who were going to bring in boatloads of cash.
...Or did they?
See, I happen to agree that it's natural that combat players are going to say "as long as it doesn't affect gameplay." But the "gameplay" for them was only ever about min/maxing and combat, because that's all that really matters for most of the people who hung around the last fifteen years or so, mainly white or asian males between 13 and 30. But I remember when housewives played these things. Middle-aged professionals played these things. Academics researched these things as a whole new paradigm in social relations. The appeal of these games were, at one time, much broader based than possible today.
But what, exactly, did these powergamers do to make their min/maxing, their marathon raids, their clan-centric and combat-centric gameplay rewarding to the devs? What did they provide the devs in exchange for the provision that the devs can do whatever they want with the cash store, ""as long as it doesn't affect combat abilities gameplay?"
Apparently, not so much that the devs didn't want to pursue a brighter, shinier, newer kind of player, who really didn't care about that aging concept that "combat ability should be earned through gameplay." See, those folks will play whether or not the gun of pwn is in the cash store or not. Old xXDEATHDEALERXx just thinks the thought is antithetical to everything MMOs stand for.
I can't say I'm upset that xXDEATHDEALERXx is outraged. See, it was folks like him who persuaded SOE to turn SWG into a WoW clone in 2005. It was folks like him who persuaded NCSoft to shut down CoH. Perhaps it wasn't him, specifically, but the thought of legions of folks like him pouring onto the servers like a river, headset in ear, buying everything in sight. But he just never did. He poured into WoW, but hardly anywhere else.
But I do understand why xXDEATHDEALERXx is outraged. It can be a hard thing when something you enjoy is taken away from you and given to someone the devs like better. It can be a hard thing when your gamebreakers are considered good MMO design, and the only choice they give you is to either do the things you don't like, or give up on this genre.
I still think you are doing power gamers a great disservice.
I am probably what you would call a power gamer (though i wouldn't use that term personally). I get my greatest enjoyment from mastering combat mechanics and being the best I possibly can be on my character.
That said, I and all the other power gamers I have ever met recognise the value of community and the value of a variety of gameplay activities. I personally started MMO life in SWG so I know the value of the roleplay community, a great crafting community as well as everyone else. Diversity breeds a strong, stable community which is essential for the longevity of an MMO. So, whilst I may not enjoy the way you play games, it doesn't mean I want to see it eliminated.
As for what power gamers offer?
In my experience, they are the most loyal of customers. It takes a lot of time and effort to reach the top, so as long as the gameplay is OK, power gamers will stick around for years. Power gamers are also dependant on other people, so they are often extremely social. In all the MMOs I've ever played, the overwhelming majority of guild leaders have been what you would call power gamers. So, not only are they giving their money to the devs, they are actively building the community and providing value/content for other players!
And your comment about power gamers wanting SWG changed to be like WoW.....um, couldn't be more wrong. No power gamer wanted SWG to be like WoW! We loved the old system, hell, most power gamers were working towards jedi so they could be even more elite! We didn't want it dumbed down! SoE made the decision so they could chase after the casual solo players that WoW had brought into the genre. The entire NGE was aimed at the opposite of a power gamer!
So, I'll say again: power gamers are not the cause of your problems. Developers catering to the largest demographic, casual soloers, is what has caused your preferred playstyle to be ignored.
Comments
What we clearly see is that the highest rate of growth was vanilla.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Were you around for the pay per hour days of AOL and TSN? Paying $6.00 per hour makes $15.00 per month cheap.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Was it during vanilla or not? Yes it was.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Lol .. are you willing to bet that there will be no more f2p games soon? You know they are taking shares from sub-only games, right?
If I go with your thinking.....the OP warned about F2P...F2P is here...and now the fight is on to keep it at bay....personally I think the sky has fallen.
"Henny Penny, more commonly known in the United States as Chicken Little and sometimes as Chicken Licken, is a folk tale with a moral in the form of a cumulative tale about a chicken who believes the world is coming to an end"
Pay $80 for the base game, then pay more to unlock content that is developed but not release with the base game, then pay more for cosmetic items, then pay for QoL items.
Real F2P games you don't pay for the base game and then all the cash shop stuff. This hybrid pay for a watered down version + cash shop is a very greedy western version of F2P and it seems much worse.
~~ postlarval ~~
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I have never supported f2p or p2w or loot boxes with a single dime.
I have my subscription to EQ and that + expansions is the only payment method I have ever used.
I've recognized that slippery slope of micro-transactions on day one and watched the masses fall for it in despair. There is nothing just one person can do aside from voting with their wallet. Unfortunately, the majority voted in favor of.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
For too long, power gamers have been saying "we don't mind the cash store, so long as you limit it to fluff like pets, skins, and costumes."
More or less, "the cash store is alright, so long as we stick it to the roleplayers and other fluffernutters like Beatnik59, since we don't care about roleplay or roleplayers anyway."
But there was one crucial mistake in all of this: they made the games so power gamer friendly, they took out any and all reasons for RPers to want to hang out there.
Text boxes? Gone. Bases and structures? Gone. RP tools? Nerfed. Emotes? Pointless and contextless.
And so, what they were left with is a bunch of costumes, props, skins, and other stuff that roleplayers really like in the cash shop, with no roleplayers to buy them. Meanwhile, xXDEATHDEALERXx is playing on the developer's dime, maybe with the help of gold farmers or powerlevelling services, but contributing nearly nothing to the developer's cash store.
And, what's worse, when they grind through the content, they then, en masse, come to forums like this one, to complain that the game is too easy, too short, and endgame sucks.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
makes me wonder who is buying these items, I dont see traditional role players doing it for sure
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
If you have not yet figured it out ... the whales support those games. We free-ride on whales. No support is necessary.
For example, i have blast with warframe. You should try it. Some of the best free grinding action combat fun.
By this theory, Overwatch should crash and burn, right? You don't RP in a shooter anyway. So why are people spending money on that game?
I don't know why whales buy things, but they do .. so you are clearly wrong. BTW, games only need whales to contribute. Others can free-ride.
For starters, "power gamers" (elite / hardcore / whatever) have been the most most vocal group opposing F2P / cash shops. The whole business model is designed to attract non-power gamers.
Secondly, blame the Asian market for cash shops. In most Asian countries, F2P / cash shops is the normal, expected business model. It is much more blatant P2W than it is over here, but we ended up with cash shops not just because western devs wanted more money, but because eastern MMOs got imported and western devs didn't want to maintain two business models.
Third, the accepted compromise in the west is "as long as it doesn't affect gameplay". Who cares what is in the cash shop as long as it doesn't affect the way the game is played? That is why most stuff is cosmetic items and mounts - it's not because devs are trying to fleece the RP community, it is simply what the devs can get away with. Sadly, this compromise is slowly being eroded, but even so as soon as a dev starts introducing P2W (like SWBF2 lootboxes) the community creates a commotion.
Fourth, "they made the games so power gamer friendly"....wtf? The opposite is true. There has been a general trend within MMOs, starting with WoW, of dumbing down games and making them more accessible to the masses. Gone are the complicated classes and mechanics. Gone is most of the challenge. This is not what power gamers want!
Finally, can you blame us for complaining? I know the roleplay community has had a rough time of it with most MMOs ignoring that section of the community, but that is not the fault of power gamers. Almost all sections of the community get ignored - power gamers, roleplayers, crafters, socialisers. The only section that is served well is the casual solo player. And that is because that section is by far the largest section of the community and generates the vast majority of income for developers.
I agree, powergamers are an endangered species today. I can't say I'm all that sad to see them go, given that they pretty much made roleplayers extinct in the wild, while they had their run.
I see the protests from them daily against FTP and casuals; it's clear that they aren't so well liked anymore from the bean counters, who are running around trying to placate these gamers with different values.
Frankly, as a roleplayer, I have no dog in this hunt, because merely getting rid of FTP is not going to give me back my rich worlds, my roleplay-centric gameplay, the non-combat emphasis, and the world building.
If anything, getting rid of FTP is only going to revert this genre back to the days of forced grouping on ventrillo with marathon raids to acquire boots of pwnage. And I found that game to be shallow.
To give the people here a sense of perspective, I recall there was a time in this genre, long ago, when it was not uncommon to find a player who would pay $15 a month to hang out at the bar roleplaying for a half an hour on average a day, and thinking that was time and money well spent. Yes, such people existed. In fact, most of the people I met were these kinds of people.
But that was when the games were about different things, with combat almost existing as a sideshow, rather than the main show. It's hard to think of that kind of game today, mainly because we've spent the last fifteen years or so talking about how those were bad games, suffering from bad game design.
Perhaps today's casual, FTPer might even understand why, for example, a player would find hanging out at the bar playing a character enjoyable, or meaningful, or satisfying. The truth is, they've never seen it, because by the time the publishers designed games for them, that game I talked about was long gone.
The reasons those are gone is because we started to get a new kind of player interested in these games around 2000 or so, fresh from the Counterstrike servers with headsets in their ears, who really didn't "get" what these games were about or why we played them over other multiplayer games. They wanted combat systems. They wanted these games to be about "skill," which usually involved min/maxing loot out of some combat engine. They wanted these games to be about "teamwork," which usually involved coordinating a clan who min/maxed in tandem to pull loot out of some combat engine.
And, most of all, they saw anything that didn't correspond to these wants as "wasting developer time," and the devs agreed, mainly because the newer devs were operating from a different set of assumptions than the first devs in this game format.
For whatever reasons, these players won, players like xXDEATHDEALERXx. And so SWG got nerfed. Games on the drawing board got the WoW treatment.
And, for awhile, they got what they wanted. And the devs got what they wanted: a game that appealed to powergamers, who were going to bring in boatloads of cash.
...Or did they?
See, I happen to agree that it's natural that combat players are going to say "as long as it doesn't affect gameplay." But the "gameplay" for them was only ever about min/maxing and combat, because that's all that really matters for most of the people who hung around the last fifteen years or so, mainly white or asian males between 13 and 30. But I remember when housewives played these things. Middle-aged professionals played these things. Academics researched these things as a whole new paradigm in social relations. The appeal of these games were, at one time, much broader based than possible today.
But what, exactly, did these powergamers do to make their min/maxing, their marathon raids, their clan-centric and combat-centric gameplay rewarding to the devs? What did they provide the devs in exchange for the provision that the devs can do whatever they want with the cash store, ""as long as it doesn't affect combat abilities gameplay?"
Apparently, not so much that the devs didn't want to pursue a brighter, shinier, newer kind of player, who really didn't care about that aging concept that "combat ability should be earned through gameplay." See, those folks will play whether or not the gun of pwn is in the cash store or not. Old xXDEATHDEALERXx just thinks the thought is antithetical to everything MMOs stand for.
I can't say I'm upset that xXDEATHDEALERXx is outraged. See, it was folks like him who persuaded SOE to turn SWG into a WoW clone in 2005. It was folks like him who persuaded NCSoft to shut down CoH. Perhaps it wasn't him, specifically, but the thought of legions of folks like him pouring onto the servers like a river, headset in ear, buying everything in sight. But he just never did. He poured into WoW, but hardly anywhere else.
But I do understand why xXDEATHDEALERXx is outraged. It can be a hard thing when something you enjoy is taken away from you and given to someone the devs like better. It can be a hard thing when your gamebreakers are considered good MMO design, and the only choice they give you is to either do the things you don't like, or give up on this genre.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
But blaming companies to cater to their larger segment of customers? You know that is what commercial companies do, right? You may as well as EA to turn non-profit.
I still disagree with everything you stand for. But I cannot help but admire your consistency.
When all of us have blown away or blown to dust, you shall be here, and you shall be nariusseldon. It is only because you are you, that we are us.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I feel like some hobo trawling the supermarket for free samples but I feel content knowing the opportunism goes both ways here.
I am probably what you would call a power gamer (though i wouldn't use that term personally). I get my greatest enjoyment from mastering combat mechanics and being the best I possibly can be on my character.
That said, I and all the other power gamers I have ever met recognise the value of community and the value of a variety of gameplay activities. I personally started MMO life in SWG so I know the value of the roleplay community, a great crafting community as well as everyone else. Diversity breeds a strong, stable community which is essential for the longevity of an MMO. So, whilst I may not enjoy the way you play games, it doesn't mean I want to see it eliminated.
As for what power gamers offer?
In my experience, they are the most loyal of customers. It takes a lot of time and effort to reach the top, so as long as the gameplay is OK, power gamers will stick around for years. Power gamers are also dependant on other people, so they are often extremely social. In all the MMOs I've ever played, the overwhelming majority of guild leaders have been what you would call power gamers. So, not only are they giving their money to the devs, they are actively building the community and providing value/content for other players!
And your comment about power gamers wanting SWG changed to be like WoW.....um, couldn't be more wrong. No power gamer wanted SWG to be like WoW! We loved the old system, hell, most power gamers were working towards jedi so they could be even more elite! We didn't want it dumbed down! SoE made the decision so they could chase after the casual solo players that WoW had brought into the genre. The entire NGE was aimed at the opposite of a power gamer!
So, I'll say again: power gamers are not the cause of your problems. Developers catering to the largest demographic, casual soloers, is what has caused your preferred playstyle to be ignored.