I realize changing talents in significant way might ruin "muh vanilla" for some, but mere number tweaks are not enough to fix the mess that were vanilla talents.
Blizzard has to make a very difficult choice, whether they fix things and piss off purists or keep them "broken" to make it more vanilla, but have half the specs raid non-viable.
There is no difficult choice - broken things will be fixed, even the purists who say they hate this know that it is a necessity for longterm success.
Things are not that simple. "Fixing things necessary for long term success" are what turned WoW into what it is today.
Not that simple I suggest.
BC only - only - added two new races, level 60-70 spells and the removal of faction specific classes (plus associated changes that resulted). Arguably BC didn't increase the number of classes so - in the grand scheme of things - wasn't that big a deal. Not everyone will agree but big picture view: minor.
WotLK though introduced the Death Knight. And in true mmo expansion fashion it was the fotm class. And in true mmo post-expansion fashion it was then toned down.
And so it went on with further cycles of new fotm classes and nerfs to the others.
Its the expansions that turned WoW into what it is today. And insofar as "expansions" were required for long term success yes then OK.
If you do the "fixes" without the expansions though then, I suggest, it would be different.
BC it put the game in a direction that I personally disliked.
Giving in to the shaman/paladin faction thing.
The shared capital city
Introducing resilience which further segregated the PvP from the rest of the game.
Vanilla gave me an awesome virtual world feel and starting with BC that feeling began to die.
But it seems that people want to "fix" the classic wow away from what you and I want.
I'd be perfectly happy with Vanilla as it was, with all it's faults. If I wasn't happy with it I wouldn't have been playing it on private servers for so many years. But, I can also see that there are ways it could be "fixed" and still be just as fun.
For you that MIGHT be true. I can't see it.
You change talent systems to "fix" the game and perhaps it will change what gets brought into raids. I don't believe all should be viable.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
"The Purists"(DMKano) want to relive the original WoW experience as they remember it both good and bad and yes that means unbalanced(but unique) classes and what is by today's standards viewed as possibly boring gameplay. No one can forecast player retention for an official Blizzard vanilla WoW experience because it has never happened before. WoW is the most popular MMO of our time and comparing restarts of other games isn't the same cause those games had a fraction of WoW's total playerbase over the years. 10 years of nostalgia for the game many see as the best MMORPG they ever played may be enough to keep people for longer than the exodus that occurs after months 1-3 of every recent expansion.
"The Purists"(DMKano) want to relive the original WoW experience as they remember it both good and bad and yes that means unbalanced(but unique) classes and what is by today's standards viewed as possibly boring gameplay. No one can forecast player retention for an official Blizzard vanilla WoW experience because it has never happened before. WoW is the most popular MMO of our time and comparing restarts of other games isn't the same cause those games had a fraction of WoW's total playerbase over the years. 10 years of nostalgia for the game many see as the best MMORPG they ever played may be enough to keep people for longer than the exodus that occurs after months 1-3 of every recent expansion.
The people who will play have already done the content many times over and it wont take long for them to finish everything. But since Blizzard really has very little cost to them to do this they can do it and just forget about it. Its win-win for Blizzard...making money on old assets.
So basically nobody wanted balance changes during Vanilla WoW?
Yeah OK.
Anybody who thinks they were getting literal Vanilla WoW really needs to understand how much they have in common with the future civilization in #Idiocracy.
Nostalgia is cool but if you need a 1:1 conversion I suggest setting up your own private server among friends. It's not gonna happen.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
I realize changing talents in significant way might ruin "muh vanilla" for some, but mere number tweaks are not enough to fix the mess that were vanilla talents.
Blizzard has to make a very difficult choice, whether they fix things and piss off purists or keep them "broken" to make it more vanilla, but have half the specs raid non-viable.
There is no difficult choice - broken things will be fixed, even the purists who say they hate this know that it is a necessity for longterm success.
Things are not that simple. "Fixing things necessary for long term success" are what turned WoW into what it is today.
Not that simple I suggest.
BC only - only - added two new races, level 60-70 spells and the removal of faction specific classes (plus associated changes that resulted). Arguably BC didn't increase the number of classes so - in the grand scheme of things - wasn't that big a deal. Not everyone will agree but big picture view: minor.
WotLK though introduced the Death Knight. And in true mmo expansion fashion it was the fotm class. And in true mmo post-expansion fashion it was then toned down.
And so it went on with further cycles of new fotm classes and nerfs to the others.
Its the expansions that turned WoW into what it is today. And insofar as "expansions" were required for long term success yes then OK.
If you do the "fixes" without the expansions though then, I suggest, it would be different.
BC it put the game in a direction that I personally disliked.
Giving in to the shaman/paladin faction thing.
The shared capital city
Introducing resilience which further segregated the PvP from the rest of the game.
Vanilla gave me an awesome virtual world feel and starting with BC that feeling began to die.
But it seems that people want to "fix" the classic wow away from what you and I want.
I'd be perfectly happy with Vanilla as it was, with all it's faults. If I wasn't happy with it I wouldn't have been playing it on private servers for so many years. But, I can also see that there are ways it could be "fixed" and still be just as fun.
For you that MIGHT be true. I can't see it.
You change talent systems to "fix" the game and perhaps it will change what gets brought into raids. I don't believe all should be viable.
What is viable? In my guild we currently have a feral druid, a boomkin, a shadow priest and a prot pally. The only hybrid spec we don't have is a Ret Paladin.
We bring those specs along because they have useful buffs, or in the case of the prot pally great AoE tanking. The feral buffs melee, the boomkin buffs casters and the shadow priest buffs our warlocks. I do know of guilds that have ret paladins, they do as bad as you might imagine, but they exist.
This will happen on on the official servers, these specs will already be in raids. Would it really be so bad to balance those specs so that they are more than just buff bots?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
This will happen on on the official servers, these specs will already be in raids. Would it really be so bad to balance those specs so that they are more than just buff bots?
That would not be vanilla WoW. Paladins being almost useless cept for buffs + light heals in raids was their thing and if you change that it makes it closer to modern WoW so what reason would anyone have to play classic with 1/10th the content? I know you are probably right though and they will probably make it as you say they will.
That is what those players wanted,they did not want changes in any way ,they wanted the original classic servers. That does NOT mean,oh we really don't want those servers,we really wanted Blizzard to change them so they are not actually what we asked for...umm yeah,,not surprised Blizzard ,does NOT get it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
So what would be the definition of vanilla/classic wow? The last patch version before Burning Crusade? They could give the truest form of wow and make everyone use the Day 1 version (1.0?). No changes no upgrades. Then saw here you go. Here is your vanilla classic wow. On a side note, what happens once you release the classic servers? Static never able to patch or upgrade. This is becoming such a stupid argument. Blizzard opened such a stupid can of worms. What happens when the content from Vanilla Wow is completed "end credits?" Blizzard can't add new content that wont be vanilla. When you cater to the vocal minority everyone loses.
I realize changing talents in significant way might ruin "muh vanilla" for some, but mere number tweaks are not enough to fix the mess that were vanilla talents.
Blizzard has to make a very difficult choice, whether they fix things and piss off purists or keep them "broken" to make it more vanilla, but have half the specs raid non-viable.
But why does every spec need to be 'raid viable'... I had a lot of fun in Vanilla and TBC WoW as an Arcane / Ice Mage, which was actually quite a good spec for solo and small group.
And I know a lot of classes were a lot more broken than Mages, but just because something isn't raid viable doesn't mean it can't be fun... remember this is game built before the 'speed-run' and 'raid-or-die' mindsets turned everything into a mindless asocial zerg (edit: though ironically it is also the game that pushed that mindset into the mainstream), and overcoming / living with the 'flaws' was a big part of what made it memorable.
They should absolutely aim to have every class be viable, which was not the case in the original game. They should also keep the existing stat system, rather than going back to vanilla stats/gear, which were crap.
They should absolutely aim to have every class be viable, which was not the case in the original game. They should also keep the existing stat system, rather than going back to vanilla stats/gear, which were crap.
Then this wouldn't be vanilla......
How about those that want vanilla (no changes) get that server...and everyone else stay on the current server with changes.
They should absolutely aim to have every class be viable, which was not the case in the original game. They should also keep the existing stat system, rather than going back to vanilla stats/gear, which were crap.
So in other words like the game is now. You kinda missed the point I think.
1) Are the skill trees coming back, and restrictions like they used to be? Like Paladins alliance only and Shamans horde only (during vanilla)? I loved wow when it had meaningful character development.
2) When is this coming out? Any ballpark given?
3) Will this always be vanilla or will they eventually add BC? I enjoyed wow a lot until after WotLK when they gutted all chardev options instead of adding to them like with BC and WotLK with gemcrafting, glyphs, and better trees with more points. Will I be able to switch my characters to a different server if the one I am on goes past WotLK?
If it isn't almost an exact copy of vanilla I doubt many people will stick with it.
Played from 2006-2015, and the most fun I had was before WotLK. Sure it was kinda fun during and after, but with the changes they made I could tell they just wanted people in and did not care how they did it, including dumbing down the whole system. When I left, it had become just basically faceroll for the win in everything. No strategy in anything anymore except "don't stand in the fire".
Might sub for a month just to check it out, but if they just change the world and leave everything else the same, then it is not classic. Also would like to see the classes go back to what they were, that was half the fun of it, unbalanced classes going at it in pvp(remember the rogue stun lock with maces). Now just about everyone can be anything.
If it isn't almost an exact copy of vanilla I doubt many people will stick with it.
Might sub for a month just to check it out, but if they just change the world and leave everything else the same, then it is not classic.
It wouldn't just be not classic, it would be WoW but slightly different setting. The mechanics are really the only thing that matters. If I don't want to play WoW now because of the child friendly mechanics and complete lack of character development why would changing the current raids/dungeons/zones make me want to give anyone money?
Do you know the answers to my three questions above by chance?
1) Are the skill trees coming back, and restrictions like they used to be? Like Paladins alliance only and Shamans horde only (during vanilla)? I loved wow when it had meaningful character development.
2) When is this coming out? Any ballpark given?
3) Will this always be vanilla or will they eventually add BC? I enjoyed wow a lot until after WotLK when they gutted all chardev options instead of adding to them like with BC and WotLK with gemcrafting, glyphs, and better trees with more points. Will I be able to switch my characters to a different server if the one I am on goes past WotLK?
1) Yes 2) Unknown (not even Blizzard can tell you) 3) Rumor has it that an ambitious plan would be to provide all post-vanilla content "tuned" to a vanilla game system, i.e. scaled down to work with max. level 60 and the class abilities existing in vanilla. It's too ambitious and personally don't give it much probability, but if it were to happen it would be awesome.
So basically nobody wanted balance changes during Vanilla WoW?
Yeah OK.
Anybody who thinks they were getting literal Vanilla WoW really needs to understand how much they have in common with the future civilization in #Idiocracy.
Nostalgia is cool but if you need a 1:1 conversion I suggest setting up your own private server among friends. It's not gonna happen.
Just because it was vanilla doesn't mean that people like you weren't bitching and moaning about something. You see, what happened over the expansions is that the devs caved into the bitchers and the moaners. It ruined the game.
So this vanilla experience is about, imo, about getting back to a state when the devs didn't cave to the bitchers and moaners. Besides, you bitchers and moaners have the current state of the game. You should love it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
So what would be the definition of vanilla/classic wow? The last patch version before Burning Crusade? They could give the truest form of wow and make everyone use the Day 1 version (1.0?). No changes no upgrades. Then saw here you go. Here is your vanilla classic wow. On a side note, what happens once you release the classic servers? Static never able to patch or upgrade. This is becoming such a stupid argument. Blizzard opened such a stupid can of worms. What happens when the content from Vanilla Wow is completed "end credits?" Blizzard can't add new content that wont be vanilla. When you cater to the vocal minority everyone loses.
Oh, get out of here with that. This is awesome! Now I get to read all the people who said this would never happen blow a gasket on the forums trying to find a way to poor cold water all over it. It's deliciously salty ..... simply delicious!
Blizzy must be doing so well, that they need to go back to the start!
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
They should absolutely aim to have every class be viable, which was not the case in the original game. They should also keep the existing stat system, rather than going back to vanilla stats/gear, which were crap.
Then this wouldn't be vanilla......
How about those that want vanilla (no changes) get that server...and everyone else stay on the current server with changes.
They're not making vanilla. They're making classic. People should adjust their expectations accordingly. Did you read the thread and the forum post? Even the word vanilla, as Blizzard has pointed out, means a ton of different things from launch to BC. Right now they're trying to figure out what classic means and let's be honest, even the people within "vanilla" don't all agree on what that means.
I think their deliberation mainly centers around how to make this something with more longevity than simply throwing up vanilla content and walking away.
What that means has yet to be seen, but my best guess is they will determine what the "core" philosophies are that were present in the original that have been altered or removed over the course of WoW's evolution and go from there. Brack did say that they were trying to recreate the experience (things like the talent trees, Hunter pet system, slower regen, etc. are pretty hallmark of the differences between current and vanilla) so I think it will be much closer on feel to the original than many are giving Blizzard credit for, while putting that classic Blizzard "here's what we learned about this from our and other developers' past mistakes" approach to making any quote-unquote improvements to vanilla.
Classic for me is right before is pre-Wrath BC and for a bit just after that release. So the closer it is to that the more I'll like it.
I never played Wrath when it was live. Classic for me was Beta, Vanilla, and The Burning Crusade. But honestly, I'd be perfectly fine with Wrath of the Lich King as long as it was before the addition of Dungeon Finder or Raid Finder.
See this is where they will have problems everyone's definition of where they need to roll back for the classic servers is different for everyone. They are just going to have a whole lot of disappoint people that it is not the classic wow they wanted or remember.
So basically nobody wanted balance changes during Vanilla WoW?
Yeah OK.
Anybody who thinks they were getting literal Vanilla WoW really needs to understand how much they have in common with the future civilization in #Idiocracy.
Nostalgia is cool but if you need a 1:1 conversion I suggest setting up your own private server among friends. It's not gonna happen.
Just because it was vanilla doesn't mean that people like you weren't bitching and moaning about something. You see, what happened over the expansions is that the devs caved into the bitchers and the moaners. It ruined the game.
So this vanilla experience is about, imo, about getting back to a state when the devs didn't cave to the bitchers and moaners. Besides, you bitchers and moaners have the current state of the game. You should love it.
I didn't play WoW Frito, you imbecile.
The point is expectation. Anybody who honestly thinks Blizzards motivation for a Classic WoW server is to provide an alternative to "bitchers and moaners" is a simpleton and waters their lawn with Brawndo.
They're going to remove old bugs, they're going to make QoL changes and monetize. I wouldn't be surprised if they did some balancing as well. It's never going to be a 1:1 conversion Frito.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Comments
For you that MIGHT be true. I can't see it.
You change talent systems to "fix" the game and perhaps it will change what gets brought into raids. I don't believe all should be viable.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Yeah OK.
Anybody who thinks they were getting literal Vanilla WoW really needs to understand how much they have in common with the future civilization in #Idiocracy.
Nostalgia is cool but if you need a 1:1 conversion I suggest setting up your own private server among friends. It's not gonna happen.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=viable+definition
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
That is what those players wanted,they did not want changes in any way ,they wanted the original classic servers.
That does NOT mean,oh we really don't want those servers,we really wanted Blizzard to change them so they are not actually what we asked for...umm yeah,,not surprised Blizzard ,does NOT get it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
And I know a lot of classes were a lot more broken than Mages, but just because something isn't raid viable doesn't mean it can't be fun... remember this is game built before the 'speed-run' and 'raid-or-die' mindsets turned everything into a mindless asocial zerg (edit: though ironically it is also the game that pushed that mindset into the mainstream), and overcoming / living with the 'flaws' was a big part of what made it memorable.
How about those that want vanilla (no changes) get that server...and everyone else stay on the current server with changes.
1) Are the skill trees coming back, and restrictions like they used to be? Like Paladins alliance only and Shamans horde only (during vanilla)? I loved wow when it had meaningful character development.
2) When is this coming out? Any ballpark given?
3) Will this always be vanilla or will they eventually add BC? I enjoyed wow a lot until after WotLK when they gutted all chardev options instead of adding to them like with BC and WotLK with gemcrafting, glyphs, and better trees with more points. Will I be able to switch my characters to a different server if the one I am on goes past WotLK?
Played from 2006-2015, and the most fun I had was before WotLK. Sure it was kinda fun during and after, but with the changes they made I could tell they just wanted people in and did not care how they did it, including dumbing down the whole system. When I left, it had become just basically faceroll for the win in everything. No strategy in anything anymore except "don't stand in the fire".
Might sub for a month just to check it out, but if they just change the world and leave everything else the same, then it is not classic. Also would like to see the classes go back to what they were, that was half the fun of it, unbalanced classes going at it in pvp(remember the rogue stun lock with maces). Now just about everyone can be anything.
It wouldn't just be not classic, it would be WoW but slightly different setting. The mechanics are really the only thing that matters. If I don't want to play WoW now because of the child friendly mechanics and complete lack of character development why would changing the current raids/dungeons/zones make me want to give anyone money?
Do you know the answers to my three questions above by chance?
2) Unknown (not even Blizzard can tell you)
3) Rumor has it that an ambitious plan would be to provide all post-vanilla content "tuned" to a vanilla game system, i.e. scaled down to work with max. level 60 and the class abilities existing in vanilla. It's too ambitious and personally don't give it much probability, but if it were to happen it would be awesome.
Just because it was vanilla doesn't mean that people like you weren't bitching and moaning about something. You see, what happened over the expansions is that the devs caved into the bitchers and the moaners. It ruined the game.
So this vanilla experience is about, imo, about getting back to a state when the devs didn't cave to the bitchers and moaners. Besides, you bitchers and moaners have the current state of the game. You should love it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Blizzy must be doing so well, that they need to go back to the start!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
What that means has yet to be seen, but my best guess is they will determine what the "core" philosophies are that were present in the original that have been altered or removed over the course of WoW's evolution and go from there. Brack did say that they were trying to recreate the experience (things like the talent trees, Hunter pet system, slower regen, etc. are pretty hallmark of the differences between current and vanilla) so I think it will be much closer on feel to the original than many are giving Blizzard credit for, while putting that classic Blizzard "here's what we learned about this from our and other developers' past mistakes" approach to making any quote-unquote improvements to vanilla.
See this is where they will have problems everyone's definition of where they need to roll back for the classic servers is different for everyone. They are just going to have a whole lot of disappoint people that it is not the classic wow they wanted or remember.
The point is expectation. Anybody who honestly thinks Blizzards motivation for a Classic WoW server is to provide an alternative to "bitchers and moaners" is a simpleton and waters their lawn with Brawndo.
They're going to remove old bugs, they're going to make QoL changes and monetize. I wouldn't be surprised if they did some balancing as well. It's never going to be a 1:1 conversion Frito.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯