The Reminiscence bump

TheHavok · November 2017

So I came across this interesting article from The Guardian that kind of got me thinking about how often people come in here and reminiscence about old mmorpgs. I do it too...nostalgia is fun.

"In this study, Americans disproportionately chose the years of their own youth as the country’s greatest years – no matter how old they were now. This finding is the latest involving a phenomenon known as the reminiscence bump"

The article cites recent research published in the Journal of Applied Research in Memory and Cognition that has found that age is important when people recount their favorite memories and experiences.

Now imagine if we measured out the years we played online videos games, and more specifically MMORPGS. Does the reminiscence bump also apply? Some food for thought

delete5230 · November 2017

mmos were community games back then....bump that !

Loke666 · November 2017

I been playing MMOs for a rather long timebut I don't think the years I played in the 90s were truly the best. Then again, I am not the type who only listen to music from when I grew up either so maybe I am not really the nostalgic type.

I do have noticed that the general quality of MMOs have gone down the last 10 years with a few exceptions though and I guess that could be nostalgia but to be fair have the amount of western AAA games that actually releases gone down a lot in later years so I don't think that is just me even if that is a possibility.

There are plenty of people here that do think their first MMO was best so there is something to it but not everyone get that nostalgic.

Kyleran · November 2017

I don't think I would have fared well on that survey, pinpointing a single year when America was great would have been a challenge.

I likely would have picked a historic year, like 1945, but I do see why I didn't vote based on a slogan about making it great again.

While I have completely embraced modern versions of other entertainment, I enjoy today's TV, music, books, and some social media , I've not adopted everything such watching others stream video games. (I don't watch any form of sports so probably related)

I rarely seek out things such as classic rock or older TV, but with MMORPGs I most definitely favor titles created before 2004.

For better or worse MMO design changed significantly and became more homogenized in ways I don't enjoy, and for some reason I haven't grown to enjoy them in their present form, unlike I have in other entertainment mediums.

My personal conclusion , modern MMOs just suck.

laxie · November 2017

The greatness of old MMOs is a product of the environment, not their design.

Take a look at Destiny 2. The game is objectively amazing compared to old games. It looks brilliant, it plays great, it has a fair story and a thought out progression. If you pitted it against some of the old games, it would objectively blow them out of the water. Still, to me, Duke Nukem will be a much greater game than Destiny 2.

It's probably due to context. Back in Ultima Online games, people were exploring visual virtual worlds for the first time. The real world was very much not digital. I'd spend most of my time playing with my kid buddies in person, running around with model x-wings and Millenium Falcons in our garden. When we then went to our PC, it was this strange magic box - you would press buttons and something resembling an x-wing would appear on your screen. The game itself was crap by today's measure. It was the sense of awe and bewilderment that made the game great.

This was even more true in MMOs. Just like games with x-wings made me bewildered about the possibility of a virtual world, online games made me bewildered about the possibility of a community. Ultima Online was my first game where I'd not only see a virtual world in front of me, but was able to claim part of it for myself. The pixels suddenly gained a lot of value, as you could interact with others, trade your loot and share the virtual with others. This sense of pioneering made the first MMOs great to me.

WoW added accessibility to all of this. Worlds in Ultima Online were meaningful, but having millions play the same thing was a whole different ballgame. Gaming moved from being a nerdy niche activity to something fairly mainstream. The ability to go into a school class and find at least a couple of people who'd play WoW was another transformative moment. The virtual worlds have somehow become justified - it has become an activity you could identify with, much like piano or soccer.

Even if today, you make a game that does the same and better, you will lack the "pioneering moment". The digital world is so commonplace that it doesn't bewilder us anymore. Games like Destiny 2 are amazing in many ways, but they aren't truly "great". Not because they'd be worse, but because they don't push the envelope.

Looking ahead, I think there are three transformative moments to predict (there's probably more that I can't see). These will be amazing for gaming, akin to UO, WoW or Second Life.

The first is AI. If the pixels on our screen become exceptionally believable in conveying emotion (as a response to our actions), this will be a reason for bewilderment. People will likely spend some time exploring this space. If I can make a virtual dog that feels like a real dog, what does that mean? If I can have perfectly believable relationships with virtual characters and things, how can I engage with that?

The second is VR (or some variation of it). If the virtual world moves away from a small display to feeling like it's surrounding you, it will bewilder people once more. Current VR already does it to an extent. It's a bit too clunky to warrant any sort of personal investment into the experience. As the barrier for investment goes down, people might want to pioneer the idea.

The third is personal identity. By this I mean moving away from fictatious avatars, to being in the space "yourself". This does not mean doing away with fantasy experiences. There is a difference though, between making a character named DragonKiller999 that slays a dragon; and taking your own persona, equipping it with fantasy gear and slaying the dragon yourself. I feel like gaming is moving in this direction, especially on mobile. If people become personally invested (through their real persona) in virtual experiences, it might be a cause for yet another bewilderment.

Grunty · November 2017

I grew up in the 60's and 70's. It was not the best of times. McCarthyism had ended but was still hanging around in the fringes. Regular Civil Defense nuclear bomb drills in schools. Bay of Pigs attempted invasion of Cuba. The Cuba missile crisis. Assassinations of a President, a Senator and more than one civil rights leader. A President who resigned and was then pardoned by his former Vice President. Late 70's depression, etc., etc.

No computer games either. Although today computer games, as a whole, just keep getting better and better.

I also can't say today is any better than it was in the 60's and 70's. So I do my best to just

Image: http://www.kotapparel.com/images/KeepOnTruckin.png

Loke666 · November 2017

Kyleran said:

I don't think I would have fared well on that survey, pinpointing a single year when America was great would have been a challenge.

I likely would have picked a historic year, like 1945, but I do see why I didn't vote based on a slogan about making it great again.

While I have completely embraced modern versions of other entertainment, I enjoy today's TV, music, books, and some social media , I've not adopted everything such watching others stream video games. (I don't watch any form of sports so probably related)

I rarely seek out things such as classic rock or older TV, but with MMORPGs I most definitely favor titles created before 2004.

For better or worse MMO design changed significantly and became more homogenized in ways I don't enjoy, and for some reason I haven't grown to enjoy them in their present form, unlike I have in other entertainment mediums.

My personal conclusion , modern MMOs just suck.

It might be since I am not American but most dates I think of would be late 18th century and 1803 (Louisiana purchase) considering the huge impact they had for the country and the continent.

The end of WW2 did have a large impact but nowhere near what Pearl Harbor did a few years earlier, the war didn't suddenly end out of nowhere but rather had built up to that since 1942. You have another few important things during the war, like the Japanese Imperial navys screw up with the scouting at Midway that could have changed things rather completelly.

But I wonder if 1916 was not far more important when US joined WW1 and changed their policy to not interfere in war in Europe, it was that decision that turned US into a superpower eventually. And it wasn't a given US would have joined the allied there either, the official reason was that a German sub sink a civilian innocent ship but it had a rather large shipment on weapons on it as well so US could have stayed out of the conflict and hostory would have been rather different.

History is rather complicated and saying that a specific year or decade were better then others isn't a simple thing. Do you mean if the average Joe had most spending power, when important decisions were made that changed things a lot or just when unexpected things happened?

Luckily for me Im Swedish and we have 1631.

I wouldn't go so far to say that modern MMOs just suck but we havn't got many good games the last 10 years...

nariusseldon · November 2017

I am the outlier then.

Any modern game is much better than something like EQ, for me.

Wizardry · November 2017

I actually feel that nostalgia is not so much fun because it proves nothing now a days is very interesting.

Yeah yeah ,i know the logic,we are tuned and honed into the culture we grew up in,well i guess i am different than most,i still look and strive for better,more appealing and only talk of past games because so many new games are looking awful,to worse to less production effort.

Then i think about SC and feel,well it is easy to say he is putting in effort,perhaps too much in areas they shouldn't but then i keep seeing very little finished so i wonder,is the effort really there?

Reminded of something an old deceased boss said to me when i was a very young noob in the workplace,he said "you know that section of the house is going to be the best looking house in the entire world but at that rate you'll never get the house done .So i feel the same logic is used in game developing,they don't,won't,can't afford to spend any time making their games really look good or they will never finish them,so it is a catch 22.

However i know the type of tools devs had to work with then and now,i feel NOW devs are proving to me to be lazier and more gimmicks in marketing than game production value and it is sad to see so much of the marketing.

Kyleran · November 2017

nariusseldon said:

I am the outlier then.

Any modern game is much better than something like EQ, for me.

You are most definitely an "outlier." Heck you practically live on an island.

Loke666 · November 2017

Wizardry said:

I actually feel that nostalgia is not so much fun because it proves nothing now a days is very interesting.
...

There is a Cinese curse: "May you live in interesting times"....

nariusseldon · November 2017

Kyleran said:

nariusseldon said:

I am the outlier then.

Any modern game is much better than something like EQ, for me.

You are most definitely an "outlier." Heck you practically live on an island.

Except, of course, I go with the flow of how MMOs are classified by this, other website and others in the industry.

Kyleran · November 2017

nariusseldon said:c.f.

Kyleran said:

nariusseldon said:

I am the outlier then.

Any modern game is much better than something like EQ, for me.

You are most definitely an "outlier." Heck you practically live on an island.

Except, of course, I go with the flow of how MMOs are classified by this, other website and others in the industry.

Ahh, Mom always said no need to jump off a bridge even if everyone else does.

Words I live by.

Scot · November 2017

It's the Guardian, they often make it up as the go along. Like so many of the "impartial" studies they cherry pick, the studies don't stand up. Here is a quote from the article:

"This correlation was fairly weak, and it would be easy to dismiss it as a fluke" If you were a journalist reporting in good faith would you include studies which you have realised are on thin ice? If it fits the story it makes it into the article.

Here is another quote:

"One of the most robust findings in memory research is that people recall more memories from young adulthood compared to other periods of their life. For example, if you ask a group of people to list important events from their lives, you see a bump corresponding to a greater number of memories for events that occurred between the ages of 10 and 30"

What they never go into is could there be a alternative explanation for this data? Because they like the explanation, it fits the story.

What if people remember things better from a younger age because that's when the most significant events of their life occurred? It is when the greatest changes to your body and mind happen, when you from pre-teen to adult, when you go from home to college, from university to your first job, most of those that marry do by their late twenties. But my explanation, which I came up with after a moments thought does not fit the story; its the story, not reason that matters most for any media outlet.

Loke666 · November 2017

Scot said:

It's the Guardian, they often make it up as the go along. Like so many of the "impartial" studies they cherry pick, the studies don't stand up. Here is a quote from the article:

"This correlation was fairly weak, and it would be easy to dismiss it as a fluke" If you were a journalist reporting in good faith would you include studies which you have realised are on thin ice? If it fits the story it makes it into the article.

Here is another quote:

"One of the most robust findings in memory research is that people recall more memories from young adulthood compared to other periods of their life. For example, if you ask a group of people to list important events from their lives, you see a bump corresponding to a greater number of memories for events that occurred between the ages of 10 and 30"

What they never go into is could there be a alternative explanation for this data? Because they like the explanation, it fits the story.

What if people remember things better from a younger age because that's when the most significant events of their life occurred? It is when the greatest changes to your body and mind happen, when you from pre-teen to adult, when you go from home to college, from university to your first job, most of those that marry do by their late twenties. But my explanation, which I came up with after a moments thought does not fit the story; its the story, not reason that matters most for any media outlet.

To be fair do I and probably most if not all of you know more then a few nostalgic people that think music was best at a certain period (which usually is about the same time they were teens) and similar things.

Not all people are nostalgic though.

As I see it, there are 3 kinds of people: People living in the past, people living in the present and people living for the future.

Some people just focus on how great things were in the past, some try to catch the day while others just plan for the future. Of course that is simplifying things since almost every one focus on one thing but does the other 2 as well but I ain't exactly claiming any studies here.

Let's just say that at least some people are nostalgic about most things and that is it common with MMO fans (you can always check the SWG forum if you don't believe that.

And yes, studies in popular magazines are far from always scientifically correct.

Scot · November 2017

Loke666 said:

Scot said:

It's the Guardian, they often make it up as the go along. Like so many of the "impartial" studies they cherry pick, the studies don't stand up. Here is a quote from the article:

"This correlation was fairly weak, and it would be easy to dismiss it as a fluke" If you were a journalist reporting in good faith would you include studies which you have realised are on thin ice? If it fits the story it makes it into the article.

Here is another quote:

"One of the most robust findings in memory research is that people recall more memories from young adulthood compared to other periods of their life. For example, if you ask a group of people to list important events from their lives, you see a bump corresponding to a greater number of memories for events that occurred between the ages of 10 and 30"

What they never go into is could there be a alternative explanation for this data? Because they like the explanation, it fits the story.

What if people remember things better from a younger age because that's when the most significant events of their life occurred? It is when the greatest changes to your body and mind happen, when you from pre-teen to adult, when you go from home to college, from university to your first job, most of those that marry do by their late twenties. But my explanation, which I came up with after a moments thought does not fit the story; its the story, not reason that matters most for any media outlet.

To be fair do I and probably most if not all of you know more then a few nostalgic people that think music was best at a certain period (which usually is about the same time they were teens) and similar things.

Not all people are nostalgic though.

As I see it, there are 3 kinds of people: People living in the past, people living in the present and people living for the future.

Some people just focus on how great things were in the past, some try to catch the day while others just plan for the future. Of course that is simplifying things since almost every one focus on one thing but does the other 2 as well but I ain't exactly claiming any studies here.

Let's just say that at least some people are nostalgic about most things and that is it common with MMO fans (you can always check the SWG forum if you don't believe that.

And yes, studies in popular magazines are far from always scientifically correct.

I would say instead that you can get people who are nostalgic about some things. So they might really like old cars or old films. I have never met or heard of anyone who likes everything about past and thinks everything about today is worse. So yes you can get people who think that gaming or MMOs were better back in the day, I see them as a tiny minority.

But the premise of the article is that everyone who is older remembers their "salad days" better, not just that they have more affection for those times. I think both are typical of the broad brush pseudo-science so often used in the media.

Talking of studies the ones to always question are easy to spot, if they are based on psychology or sociology they are so often cherry picked for the article. If you want to understand such subjects read a book or something equally old fashioned.

delete5230 · November 2017

Scot said:

What if people remember things better from a younger age because that's when the most significant events of their life occurred? It is when the greatest changes to your body and mind happen, when you from pre-teen to adult, when you go from home to college, from university to your first job, most of those that marry do by their late twenties. But my explanation, which I came up with after a moments thought does not fit the story; its the story, not reason that matters most for any media outlet.

I like this because it's true. It's not nostalgia !!

Between 10 and 30 two things happened:
1 I made all my major life's decisions.
2 Did a lot of stupid but fun crap.

Now I'm much older and "established". I would be in Jail if I did the stupid fun crap I did back in the 80's....... As you get older you gain Wisdom, your mind will say if I do "2" I loose "1".

Is Wisdom boring ?....... No your mind changes, it's God given !

So their, I should make an article and publish it. The problem is, no one would read it because everyone already knows it !

So as I always say, it's not nostalgia, mmos suck now !

Blaze_Rocker · November 2017

Not me. It's about twelve years of separation due to my age and experience with MMORPGs. If I was born in the mid 90's then it would definitely apply.

Darksworm · November 2017

Grunty said:

I grew up in the 60's and 70's. It was not the best of times. McCarthyism had ended but was still hanging around in the fringes. Regular Civil Defense nuclear bomb drills in schools. Bay of Pigs attempted invasion of Cuba. The Cuba missile crisis. Assassinations of a President, a Senator and more than one civil rights leader. A President who resigned and was then pardoned by his former Vice President. Late 70's depression, etc., etc.

No computer games either. Although today computer games, as a whole, just keep getting better and better.

I also can't say today is any better than it was in the 60's and 70's. So I do my best to just

I think that taught those generations a lot of things about the world. The relatively "peaceful" period millennials have grown up in has really left them ignorant - and their parents haven't really helped the situation.

SEANMCAD · November 2017

I absolutely have nostalgia for a specific time in my life around the age of 13-15 (of which MMOs didnt really exist at least for me) however, I KNOW that its just nostalgia.

sunandshadow · November 2017

Similarly to what above people are saying, the teenage part of my life I'm nostalgic for happened before MMOs came onto the scene. I'm mainly nostalgic for PS1 games like FF7, (I was quite disappointed that neither FF MMO was much like it). I feel nostalgia for the Myst series, but I tried Uru Online and it didn't really work as an MMO. I feel nostalgia for the Harvest Moon series, but the only MMO project inspired by it died in development.

nariusseldon · November 2017

Kyleran said:

nariusseldon said:c.f.

Kyleran said:

nariusseldon said:

I am the outlier then.

Any modern game is much better than something like EQ, for me.

You are most definitely an "outlier." Heck you practically live on an island.

Except, of course, I go with the flow of how MMOs are classified by this, other website and others in the industry.

Ahh, Mom always said no need to jump off a bridge even if everyone else does.

Words I live by.

You mom wants to speak Klingon when everyone else wants to speak English?

Being different is not always good, particularly when it comes to languages.

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The Reminiscence bump

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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The Reminiscence bump

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV