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Citizencon 2017: Procedural Cities & other highlights

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  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    edited October 2017
    Yeah I wouldn't see the streaming assets through network instead HDD working out, I would believe it would end up in a Black Desert Online dejavu (their godawful asset popping). 

    There's a balance to be made, they create asset sets then reuse it in many different conditions with the help of the procedural tools, and with the high amount of locations they have to create, it will stay within reasonable limits. That's why I said having one whole asset set per area is not a question of the capability of the art team, but a logical optimization of their process.

    If you didn't notice one of the approaches taken, many asset sets are tied to in-game companies or industries, something owned/created by Microtech, Arccorp, Misc, RSI, Shubin, etc... then using branding when creating from ships to locations
    Gdemami
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,295
    Vrika said:
    Erillion said:
    It was my understanding that the 2 GB mentioned above was an abitrary number by @MaxBacon

    The art itself could be much less. And you only need the first part for "arrival". You can load in the rest in the background while you are on planet. That reduces the 40 Mbit/s net connection requirement you mentioned.
    You've likely already seen in demos how hard it's for RSI to make it so that object don't seem to pop into existence too late when you approach the planet from space.

    Imagine how hard it would be if the game would also need to stream art for those objects real-time through net.
    It is my experience that the "pop-up" thing is very dependend on the settings, especially viewing distance, field of view and LOD settings. And its always a tradeoff to FPS.

    So i am not worried about the smoothness - i can tweak it until it fits. Not to mention that CIG has still a lot of room for improvements.


    Have fun


    Odeezee
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    Erillion said:
    It is my experience that the "pop-up" thing is very dependend on the settings, especially viewing distance, field of view and LOD settings. And its always a tradeoff to FPS.

    So i am not worried about the smoothness - i can tweak it until it fits. Not to mention that CIG has still a lot of room for improvements.
    On the case of SC, a lot on your disk and its speed, hence why SSD is such a necessity, but I think also memory related stuff.

    But the moment you take that away and start relying on network streaming assets, you have a nightmare to deal with, it has a cost on their side, on your side, and any fluctuations will mean stuff is not streaming on time.

    If you played Black Desert Online you would get one idea of what it would look like, if you walk too fast into a main city the assets become "clay", you will freeze in place as it is trying to catch up to properly load those assets.
    Gdemami
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,295
    Never played BDO, so i have to believe you that its a PITB.


    Have fun
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    edited October 2017
    Erillion said:
    Never played BDO, so i have to believe you that its a PITB.


    Have fun
    Oh, so it's just that thing where you as you move you can't help but notice the textures or whole buildings appearing in your front, it's one of BDO's most annoying issues, not even their trailers escape it, but that's still assets loading from disk.

    When I BDO I was hype I got a Tier 8 Horse, I soon wasn't when I started to get stuck in mid-air entering cities waiting for assets and even geometry to load surrounding me.

    Achieve that visual quality at that scale without visible popping is already one undertaking, adding the network factor over it is something I see expensive and unreliable.
    Gdemami
  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,401
    MaxBacon said:
    Erillion said:
    Never played BDO, so i have to believe you that its a PITB.


    Have fun
    Oh, so it's just that thing where you as you move you can't help but notice the textures or whole buildings appearing in your front, it's one of BDO's most annoying issues, not even their trailers escape it, but that's still assets loading from disk.

    When I BDO I was hype I got a Tier 8 Horse, I soon wasn't when I started to get stuck in mid-air entering cities waiting for assets and even geometry to load surrounding me.

    Achieve that visual quality at that scale without visible popping is already one undertaking, adding the network factor over it is something I see expensive and unreliable.
    It is the price you have to pay if you want the environment to be anything but static. So if you want people to be able to put up buildings and/or other assets into the environment, then you need to stream assets, at least to some degree.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    hfztt said:
    It is the price you have to pay if you want the environment to be anything but static. So if you want people to be able to put up buildings and/or other assets into the environment, then you need to stream assets, at least to some degree.
    In SC the whole tech front to achieve this is via asset streaming, but not flowing through network, it's what is in your filesystem, of course, if you need to render players and such that needs the network, but it's not the asset itself being sent through the network (that's what he suggested specific to do asset streaming instead as one alternative to a bigger install size).
    GdemamiOdeezee
  • ScotchUpScotchUp Member UncommonPosts: 228
    Erillion said:
    I never expected every single house across the planet to have full interiors. Does not make sense when no one is there to see it.

    But whenever a player is there e.g. for a mission, it could be generated as needed.

    And w.r.t. art fatigue .... see my other posting about giving the tool into the hand of modders ... and you have 1000 content generators and 10000 artists generating stuff for free that CIG can pick and choose. Works for other games.


    Have fun

    Have to agree here but not a surprise. In LOTRO, lot of people complained about not being able to enter most of buildings. Ridiculous to have every building open to players.
    “The reason I talk to myself is because I’m the only one whose answers I accept.”
    George Carlin
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    CR said what the intention was. There will be some landing pads, some shops. Most will be just window dressing. Sure you can go in but it will just be an npc walking and some rooms that look good...lots of that in many mmorpgs.

    It looks all shiney but it will be exactly the same as city settings in every other mmorpg, window dressing.
    Odeezee
  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933
    Nilden said:
    None of this matters if they cant get 3.0 working. How long have they taken to get to what most call well behind where they should be and you think they will get what they showed at the con working. Stop drinking the kool-aid.

    Let them eat blue cake.
    Honestly I don't think most Star Citizen fanboys care about an actual working game. It's about pretty space ships, potential and possibilities. They are not going to let reality ruin their head in the clouds pipe dream and continue to throw money at it.

    Don't get me wrong it would be awesome if they pull it off but I don't think it's too big to fail. I think it's going to be a case of the bigger you are the harder you fall. Going to be a lot of disappointment...

    Then again maybe people will be just as excited 2, 3, or 5 years from now when they are still selling space ships for an unfinished game.

    Any way it goes it will  be interesting to be on the side lines and watch it go down.
    You presume way too much about what others care about or not. And about what others think or wish. I suggest you get of your self-righteousness steed before you fall on your bum.

    See you on the side lines.
    Gdemami
  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933
    CR said what the intention was. There will be some landing pads, some shops. Most will be just window dressing. Sure you can go in but it will just be an npc walking and some rooms that look good...lots of that in many mmorpgs.

    It looks all shiney but it will be exactly the same as city settings in every other mmorpg, window dressing.
    Implying that on a procedural generated planet-wide city all buildings should be fully functional indicates two things : you're so desperate to keep bashing SC that you just type stuff without utilizing your brain and you're utter clueless about level design in games.
    GdemamiOdeezee
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    edited October 2017
    CR said what the intention was. There will be some landing pads, some shops. Most will be just window dressing. Sure you can go in but it will just be an npc walking and some rooms that look good...lots of that in many mmorpgs.

    It looks all shiney but it will be exactly the same as city settings in every other mmorpg, window dressing.
    Specific to Arccorp. Accorp is a special case because it's a fully urbanized planet.

    Now if we look at Levski, if we look at Hurston, it's a different story.

    It's a matter of scale, that's why Levski can be so crafted as its whole, instead of relying on dressing scenery, and Arccorp can't.
    Odeezee
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    edited October 2017
    You can go in and look, that is functional. See how words are used.


    All that is in visual range is real from the standpoint that players can reach locations they see without reservation. Nothing is "painted" into the scenery.


    Reach locations........you can reach locations.......reach.

    And as he said, there will be a few landing spots with shops.

    Mostly, you can go look.....flight sim. Nothing wrong with that, but not exactly as you all are trying to hype.

    Shills.
    Odeezee
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,611
    Shodanas said:
    Nilden said:
    None of this matters if they cant get 3.0 working. How long have they taken to get to what most call well behind where they should be and you think they will get what they showed at the con working. Stop drinking the kool-aid.

    Let them eat blue cake.
    Honestly I don't think most Star Citizen fanboys care about an actual working game. It's about pretty space ships, potential and possibilities. They are not going to let reality ruin their head in the clouds pipe dream and continue to throw money at it.

    Don't get me wrong it would be awesome if they pull it off but I don't think it's too big to fail. I think it's going to be a case of the bigger you are the harder you fall. Going to be a lot of disappointment...

    Then again maybe people will be just as excited 2, 3, or 5 years from now when they are still selling space ships for an unfinished game.

    Any way it goes it will  be interesting to be on the side lines and watch it go down.
    You presume way too much about what others care about or not. And about what others think or wish. I suggest you get of your self-righteousness steed before you fall on your bum.

    See you on the side lines.
    He is actually over estimating it. Everyone on these forums at least seem to be happy with what they have right now. So if they never released another thing most would be satisfied at least according to the hyperbole.
    Herase
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,916
    rodarin said:
    Shodanas said:
    Nilden said:
    None of this matters if they cant get 3.0 working. How long have they taken to get to what most call well behind where they should be and you think they will get what they showed at the con working. Stop drinking the kool-aid.

    Let them eat blue cake.
    Honestly I don't think most Star Citizen fanboys care about an actual working game. It's about pretty space ships, potential and possibilities. They are not going to let reality ruin their head in the clouds pipe dream and continue to throw money at it.

    Don't get me wrong it would be awesome if they pull it off but I don't think it's too big to fail. I think it's going to be a case of the bigger you are the harder you fall. Going to be a lot of disappointment...

    Then again maybe people will be just as excited 2, 3, or 5 years from now when they are still selling space ships for an unfinished game.

    Any way it goes it will  be interesting to be on the side lines and watch it go down.
    You presume way too much about what others care about or not. And about what others think or wish. I suggest you get of your self-righteousness steed before you fall on your bum.

    See you on the side lines.
    He is actually over estimating it. Everyone on these forums at least seem to be happy with what they have right now. So if they never released another thing most would be satisfied at least according to the hyperbole.
    Yeah you are probably right. People seem to be eating it up.
    Odeezee

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

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  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    edited October 2017
    This bit:


    Small little detail but a favorite moment on the demo, really good VFX there.

    Some details just make a change on how enjoyable something is, like seeing the stringy landing gear working in the demo, this: https://i.imgur.com/IQKls7v.gif
    GdemamiBabuinixOdeezee
  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,401
    MaxBacon said:
    hfztt said:
    It is the price you have to pay if you want the environment to be anything but static. So if you want people to be able to put up buildings and/or other assets into the environment, then you need to stream assets, at least to some degree.
    In SC the whole tech front to achieve this is via asset streaming, but not flowing through network, it's what is in your filesystem, of course, if you need to render players and such that needs the network, but it's not the asset itself being sent through the network (that's what he suggested specific to do asset streaming instead as one alternative to a bigger install size).
    *Sigh* Why did I even try...

    NOONE in MMO's stream the full assets. They stream the configuration of the environment. JUST AS SC WOULD HAVE TO DO. What SC does to lessen network traffic is not special! It is only special in the context of CryEngine. Noone has done it in CryEngine before.
    Odeezee
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    edited October 2017
    hfztt said:
    *Sigh* Why did I even try...

    NOONE in MMO's stream the full assets. They stream the configuration of the environment. JUST AS SC WOULD HAVE TO DO. What SC does to lessen network traffic is not special! It is only special in the context of CryEngine. Noone has done it in CryEngine before.
    Oh, you weren't on topic then, this was about the cost it has for one online game has this, for streaming into the client the actual assets to the client's filesystem/memory.

    Obvious that necessary solution is standard as you mentioned, SC just does their own tech to adapt to the reality and needs of their game, such as the MegaMap that cut the need for loading screens on AC and so.
    Gdemami
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    edited October 2017
    Interview with Erin Roberts this citcon:

    1. Q: What was your favorite part of today's show? A: The opportunity for the whole on working together and show-off all the stuff they were working on. Like, we brought our people from all different studios, all around the world, and show you what we did.

    2. Q: Was there a ship, that was totally your idea? A: No. For the ship side we have dedicated people.

    3. Q: What's your favorite event so far? A: This one, because, as i said, different people from studio came here and showing a lot of different cool stuff.

    4. Q: Ship modularity - can we swap only modules, like in Retaliator or we can actually change an interior like tables, weapon racks, etc? A: Well, some ships was built that way, so you can swap modules. Like, Retaliator: living modules, torpedo modules. Q - And you can change things inside of this modules? A - Yeah, we want to let people customize their ships. Q - So, for example, can i put a Big Benny's Vending machine inside pf my ship? A - Yeah, if it's large.

    5. Q: Will there be a test of Squadron 42 in style of Evocati, or you will have only internal studio testing? A: We want keep Squadron 42 until we're really happy about it, but in the last few weeks we might start short testing, like Evcoati, just to make sure everything works fine as intended.

    6. Q: How much freedom will we get in Squadron 42? It's more lineal story like Bf1 or CoD, or it's more like Fallout and Skyrim? A: A bit of both. It's more story-driven, but you have you will have options for the game. But you're in the military, you follow orders, so you can't go anywhere you want. And you will have these big locations, so you can choose what to do.

    7. Q: Can you stream captains voice through the ship? A: Absolutely. So, you've seen FaceOver IP, so you can see your captains face, if he's angry.

    8. Q: Can we stream our own music? A: I'm not sure, but yeah, it's something we want to make. Like JukeBox, so i dont think this will be an issue.

    9. Q: And a last quick one - is Reclaimer finished? A: It's finished, it can fly, but it yet cannot do what it should - salvaging, which we will have after 3.0.

  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,259
    MaxBacon said:
    This bit:


    Small little detail but a favorite moment on the demo, really good VFX there.

    Some details just make a change on how enjoyable something is, like seeing the stringy landing gear working in the demo, this: https://i.imgur.com/IQKls7v.gif
    That's the new GPU particle technology they talked about in a ATV segment some time ago.



    It's already present in the 3.0 build btw.



    GdemamiOdeezee
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    Babuinix said:
    That's the new GPU particle technology they talked about in a ATV segment some time ago.

    It's already present in the 3.0 build btw.
    Oh yeah I'm aware, was waiting is to see what they would pull off visually once that graphical refactor was complete, and it's quite good.

    This as well:

    BabuinixOdeezee
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,259
    edited October 2017
    Yeap those are some sweet looking space legs indeed. Making locomotion react to different types of gravity is a nice touch! Hail roberts fidelity.
    Odeezee
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    Babuinix said:
    Yeap those are some sweet looking space legs indeed. Making locomotion react to different types of gravity is a nice touch! Hail roberts fidelity.
    Oh wasn't mentioning the animation itself that is another tech stuff, but the GPU particle thing that is what they use for the footprints with the mixed dusty approach where it applies.
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    And you know what happens when you introduce the mmo part of the game to the mechanics, stuff has a way of being tuned down to work for the average computer and then the people turn that off for performance. Wasted cycles for a mmorpg.

    Stuff like this always looks good in the lab on one computer with one person.
    ScotchUpOdeezee
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    edited October 2017
    And you know what happens when you introduce the mmo part of the game to the mechanics, stuff has a way of being tuned down to work for the average computer and then the people turn that off for performance. Wasted cycles for a mmorpg.

    Stuff like this always looks good in the lab on one computer with one person.
    As we usually see, you make that either optional when it costs resources on the client (see Witcher and the hair physics), or you just make one intensive mechanic fully/semi client-sided, cheapening what is sent/how much is sent through the network.

    Hardware is not something that is stalling so what today are expensive details, tomorrow will be pretty affordable and more mainstream within games. Being SC a game that we would all agree won't release "today".
    GdemamiOdeezee
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