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If all mmo's were diffacult, would you enjoy them more ?

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,931
    Darksworm said:
    MMORPGs are difficult, but the difficulty is in group/raid content and PvP, not solo content. 

    I agree with the PVP part for obvious reasons: your enemy is much more intelligent and unpredictable than the canned mob AI.

    But I wouldn't call group or raid content difficult. They're tricky and often have complex choreography that needs to be learned. But once you learn a particular dungeon or raid there's very little difficulty involved.

    You do have to pay more attention than when soloing. There is that. But they're very simple after you do it a couple of times.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
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  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,844
    Iselin said:
    Darksworm said:
    MMORPGs are difficult, but the difficulty is in group/raid content and PvP, not solo content. 

    I agree with the PVP part for obvious reasons: your enemy is much more intelligent and unpredictable than the canned mob AI.

    But I wouldn't call group or raid content difficult. They're tricky and often have complex choreography that needs to be learned. But once you learn a particular dungeon or raid there's very little difficulty involved.

    You do have to pay more attention than when soloing. There is that. But they're very simple after you do it a couple of times.
    Lol.  That definition of something not being difficult fits just about anything. Once you practice it it's easy.  Like learning to fly a plane.  Tricky with complex steps that need to be learned.  But once you learn that it's very simple after you've done it a few times.  :smile:
    TorvalKyleranCecropia

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • yphanh2002yphanh2002 Member UncommonPosts: 26
    I can't speak for PVP but for PVE/raid/dungeon content. Wildstrar is a prime example. It's totally failure. Wildstar try to make the challenge/hard PVE experience that we used to have back in WoW vanilla and it fail hard.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,931
    Iselin said:
    Darksworm said:
    MMORPGs are difficult, but the difficulty is in group/raid content and PvP, not solo content. 

    I agree with the PVP part for obvious reasons: your enemy is much more intelligent and unpredictable than the canned mob AI.

    But I wouldn't call group or raid content difficult. They're tricky and often have complex choreography that needs to be learned. But once you learn a particular dungeon or raid there's very little difficulty involved.

    You do have to pay more attention than when soloing. There is that. But they're very simple after you do it a couple of times.
    Lol.  That definition of something not being difficult fits just about anything. Once you practice it it's easy.  Like learning to fly a plane.  Tricky with complex steps that need to be learned.  But once you learn that it's very simple after you've done it a few times.  :smile:
    In the case of airplanes are you sure you're not confusing dangerous with difficult? :)

    A group dungeon or raid has the mobs behaving exactly the same way every time right down to the % of a boss' health when they do a power move, spawn adds, or whatever.

    Flying an airplane, or driving for that matter, is not always exactly the same.
    Kyleran
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,844
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Darksworm said:
    MMORPGs are difficult, but the difficulty is in group/raid content and PvP, not solo content. 

    I agree with the PVP part for obvious reasons: your enemy is much more intelligent and unpredictable than the canned mob AI.

    But I wouldn't call group or raid content difficult. They're tricky and often have complex choreography that needs to be learned. But once you learn a particular dungeon or raid there's very little difficulty involved.

    You do have to pay more attention than when soloing. There is that. But they're very simple after you do it a couple of times.
    Lol.  That definition of something not being difficult fits just about anything. Once you practice it it's easy.  Like learning to fly a plane.  Tricky with complex steps that need to be learned.  But once you learn that it's very simple after you've done it a few times.  :smile:
    In the case of airplanes are you sure you're not confusing dangerous with difficult? :)

    A group dungeon or raid has the mobs behaving exactly the same way every time right down to the % of a boss' health when they do a power move, spawn adds, or whatever.

    Flying an airplane, or driving for that matter, is not always exactly the same.
    Danger is there because it's dangerous to your body just as Raids are dangerous to your character. It's all a series of learned behaviors.  When encountered for the first time something may appear difficult. Once practiced, becomes easy.  
    Torval

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,771
    Loke666 said:

    People are spending shorter time in the same MMO now then 10 or 15 years ago and I think the difficulty have more then a little to do with that, It is certainly not the only reason but it doesn't hurt either.
    There are so many games now .. i don't really see a point of spending all my time in one game. In fact, i have tons of steam games i have not finished.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Eldurian said:
    While I will agree most endgames only offer a trivial challenge it is still a challenge of greater magnitude then "Can you deliver a letter for me?" "Can you kill 10 goblins?" It's a challenge level lowered to a level as to not exclude anyone. Then again though, the most popular multiplayer games pit you directly against other players with no stat advantage (LoL, SC/SC2, COD, Halo, TF2 etc.) so it's really on the MMO industry and single player games that have decided to go with "No player left behind" and they've suffered greatly for it.


    So you agree any PvE "challenge" is basically trivial. So why bother? If someone wants a pve challenge, find one in the real world. 

    Sure .. pvp is like sports and there are always challenges. I am sure no matter how hard i try, i am not going to beat the korean champ in SC2. But that is a whole different discussion. 

    BTW, who is suffering greatly? It is not like pve games are not selling. 
    I agree that PVE in most currently existing MMOs is basically trivial. Which is why I never play an MMO for the sake of PVE content.

    I do not agree PVE is trivial. There are plenty of challenging PVE games on the market. I would like to see some of that level of difficulty at least available as an option in MMOs. Challenges not based on level / gearscore but how good you actually are as a player.

    MMOs (Real MMOs not "Angry Birds is an MMO!") are the genre that is suffering because:

    A. They offer no challenge outside PvP.
    B. People hate MMO PvP due to level/gear imbalance.

    It's the reason there are almost no AAA titles in currently development and the majority of the titles in kickstarter are promising PvP focus, less stat disparity, and less grinding. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,771
    Eldurian said:


    MMOs (Real MMOs not "Angry Birds is an MMO!") are the genre that is suffering because:

    A. They offer no challenge outside PvP.
    B. People hate MMO PvP due to level/gear imbalance.

    It's the reason there are almost no AAA titles in currently development and the majority of the titles in kickstarter are promising PvP focus, less stat disparity, and less grinding. 

    nah ... no AAA titles in development is caused by players are attractive to other games now (like MOBAs, or online shooters).

    Clearly a challenge is not needed to be financially successful in making games ... otherwise you don't see "easy mode" as an option in so many single player games.

    As for "real" MMOs, they are pretty much irrelevant whether there is a pve challenge or not.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,187
    I split "difficulty" into four rough categories:

    1) Intellectual

    Intellectual difficulty is when you are presented with a challenge and have to think your way out of it. In MMOs, this primarily manifests itself in combat by making you choose which skill to use next. For example, a boss does a big AoE and reduces everyones health to 20%. Every player then has to make a choice - do you pop a long CD? use a potion? hide in a corner? just wait for a heal? This is using your brain to think through a problem in a short amount of time. The decision must be meaningful. 

    Sadly, intellectual difficulty is a rarity in MMOs and has been diminishing over time. The two biggest factors have been action combat and resource management. In an action combat game, you only have a few skills to choose from, so making a decision is a piece of piss. With resource management, too many games have resource pools that regen in 10 seconds. This also makes decision making easier. The only MMO I've played that was intellectually difficult was LotRO, but sadly they have removed that difficulty now. 


    2) Physical

    This is your twitch skills. How fast can you react, and how accurate are you? If you want to increase difficulty, just require quicker reactions and more accurate aiming. I also include concentration within the physical category. Can you physically concentrate on a single fight for 5 minutes? Concentration is usually more important in games with high levels of punishment - make a single mistake and you're dead. 

    This type of difficulty has been increasing as the genre has largely switched to action combat. With intellectual difficulty, every player has a natural cap they can reach (IQ), but with physical difficulty, most players can achieve everything as long as they don't have a disability. Just play longer. The longer you play, the better your muscle memory becomes. Sure, some people advance quicker than others, but everyone can reach the required level given enough time. 


    3) Social

    The more players required, the harder it becomes. Social skills are a completely different set of skills for playing a game. It takes real skill to navigate the variety of personalities, languages, time zones etc to form a suitable group and then to effectively communicate strategies. For most people, they never need to acquire these skills and so have no appreciation of this type of difficulty, but the guild and raid leaders out there know what i mean. Social difficulty also plays a big role in why PvP is difficult. PvP involves intellectual difficulty (reacting to unpredictable scenarios), physical difficulty (quickly dodging attacks, aiming are unpredictable targets), but a lot of it comes down to understanding how other players think and trying to anticipate their moves. 


    4) Knowledge

    This is where a game requires specific knowledge to beat content, i.e. you cannot just approach the content in the usual way. Without the knowledge, you will die, so you are required to try a variety of approaches, observe the results and then learn a strategy. Acquiring the knowledge can be difficult - identifying triggers and effects can be difficult. Sometimes there may be a lot of knowledge required - perhaps there are 20 phases, each with 5 triggers/effects to remember. Can you remember 100 triggers and how you are supposed to respond with ease? Some people just aren't very good at remembering things, whilst others find it easy.

    With the internet, this type of difficulty isn't experienced by many people. Even if you do encounter this type of difficulty and can't progress, the internet will help you out. 

    This type of difficulty is preferred by developers, because it is an achievable challenge. Your first attempt, you wipe and it seems impossible. How the hell did we die so fast?! Each attempt, you learn a bit more and get a bit further, until finally you beat it. Usually, as soon as you've killed it once, it becomes pretty trivial after that. 



    My hierarchy of needs goes intellectual -> social -> knowledge -> physical. 

    If MMOs increased their intellectual difficulty, I would be extremely happy and would be much more likely to play them. Intellectual difficulty requires a deep combat system, but they are extremely hard to design. It also requires content that allows a large variety of tactics, which is also really difficult to design without accidentally making one tactic too easy. 

    Social difficulty is also good fun. I prefer playing in groups and love the feeling you get when you find that special group of players to complete the content with. Over time, you learn each others strengths and weaknesses and just play together extremely well. However, as long as devs stick to vertical progression and linear content, social difficulty must remain absent until endgame. 

    Knowledge can be fun, but not on its own. Breath of the Wild is an example of knowledge difficulty being the only difficulty. You face some bosses or random mobs and they just destroy you. But, the second you acquire the right knowledge (when to dodge/hide, what weapon to use etc), it becomes trivial. I like it when content requires a period of learning, but even once you've acquired the knowledge, it still requires either intellectual or physical skill to execute a strategy. 

    Physical difficulty....yeh, its not for me. I have nothing holding me back, it doesn't take me long to acquire the skill when picking up new twitch games.....I just don't find it engaging. I'm just bored. You're just going through the motions over and over again until your reactions reach the required level for success. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,023
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Darksworm said:
    MMORPGs are difficult, but the difficulty is in group/raid content and PvP, not solo content. 

    I agree with the PVP part for obvious reasons: your enemy is much more intelligent and unpredictable than the canned mob AI.

    But I wouldn't call group or raid content difficult. They're tricky and often have complex choreography that needs to be learned. But once you learn a particular dungeon or raid there's very little difficulty involved.

    You do have to pay more attention than when soloing. There is that. But they're very simple after you do it a couple of times.
    Lol.  That definition of something not being difficult fits just about anything. Once you practice it it's easy.  Like learning to fly a plane.  Tricky with complex steps that need to be learned.  But once you learn that it's very simple after you've done it a few times.  :smile:
    In the case of airplanes are you sure you're not confusing dangerous with difficult? :)

    A group dungeon or raid has the mobs behaving exactly the same way every time right down to the % of a boss' health when they do a power move, spawn adds, or whatever.

    Flying an airplane, or driving for that matter, is not always exactly the same.
    Danger is there because it's dangerous to your body just as Raids are dangerous to your character. It's all a series of learned behaviors.  When encountered for the first time something may appear difficult. Once practiced, becomes easy.  
    I dunno, I ran my first (and perhaps last) Tough Mudder race on Saturday,  and no matter how well you train for it, or how many tricks you learn, I can't see it ever falling into the realm of easy, even if I was 40 years younger.  

    (Well, unless you dog it of course)

    Woof!

    ;)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,691
    Kyleran said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Darksworm said:
    MMORPGs are difficult, but the difficulty is in group/raid content and PvP, not solo content. 

    I agree with the PVP part for obvious reasons: your enemy is much more intelligent and unpredictable than the canned mob AI.

    But I wouldn't call group or raid content difficult. They're tricky and often have complex choreography that needs to be learned. But once you learn a particular dungeon or raid there's very little difficulty involved.

    You do have to pay more attention than when soloing. There is that. But they're very simple after you do it a couple of times.
    Lol.  That definition of something not being difficult fits just about anything. Once you practice it it's easy.  Like learning to fly a plane.  Tricky with complex steps that need to be learned.  But once you learn that it's very simple after you've done it a few times.  :smile:
    In the case of airplanes are you sure you're not confusing dangerous with difficult? :)

    A group dungeon or raid has the mobs behaving exactly the same way every time right down to the % of a boss' health when they do a power move, spawn adds, or whatever.

    Flying an airplane, or driving for that matter, is not always exactly the same.
    Danger is there because it's dangerous to your body just as Raids are dangerous to your character. It's all a series of learned behaviors.  When encountered for the first time something may appear difficult. Once practiced, becomes easy.  
    I dunno, I ran my first (and perhaps last) Tough Mudder race on Saturday,  and no matter how well you train for it, or how many tricks you learn, I can't see it ever falling into the realm of easy, even if I was 40 years younger.  

    (Well, unless you dog it of course)

    Woof!

    ;)
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    cameltosis
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  • PopplePopple Member UncommonPosts: 238
    Today games are easy compare to the Old days when you had no maps,No Markers N.S.E.W, no light in dungeon, no friend to hold your hand ...Yeah those were the good ol days when you had to use your brain...Today games are a joke and easy...lol

    I retired retroactively..Haha

  • JeffSpicoliJeffSpicoli Member EpicPosts: 2,849
    edited October 2017
    I want challenge not difficulty. Bloodborne dark souls type hard is just frustrating and unenjoyable to me as was some of the older raids in vanilla WOW. At the same time alot of bosses in newer MMO's have just become mindless tank n spanks which isnt fun either. I think Final Fantasy does a somewhat decent job at difficulty. My sweet spot for difficulty is learning the fight through on screen q's as opposed to being so hard you have to spend 30 minutes researching how to beat a encounter. 

       
    Torval
    • Aloha Mr Hand ! 

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    thunderC said:
    I want challenge not difficulty. Bloodborne dark souls type hard is just frustrating and unenjoyable to me as was some of the older raids in vanilla WOW. At the same time alot of bosses in newer MMO's have just become mindless tank n spanks which isnt fun either. I think Final Fantasy does a somewhat decent job at difficulty. My sweet spot for difficulty is learning the fight through on screen q's as opposed to being so hard you have to spend 30 minutes researching how to beat a encounter. 
    Learning how to beat a boss by reading on a wiki is not really difficult. In fact I think a lot of the problem with current MMOs have to do with that.

    Beating a boss the first time can be hard but doing it after that gets easier and easier as you learn it's moves and since MMOs are a lot about repeating the same endgame content over and over that isn't good.

    A better Ai and more randomness forcing you to think on the spot would make the long term fun far better. And the randomness need to be enough to make any research at least rather hard, just having 3 variants of the same boss ain't good enough.

    The you of course need to figure out how difficult each boss should be to maximize the fun, having tons  of close to impossible bosses isn't fun either just like having tons of bosses that just die no matter how poorly you play isn't.

    Some bosses do need to be easier then others and the amount of harder needs to go up as you progress in the game. You don't put up a legendary hero against a goblin mystic more then you put a peasant who just decided to become an adventurer against an ancient dragon or lich.

    A good MMO have varied difficulty but starting out with generaly easy content and slowly ramp the difficulty up as you progress but with some exceptions in both directions.
    JeffSpicoliConstantineMerusTorval
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,771
    Popple said:
    Today games are easy compare to the Old days when you had no maps,No Markers N.S.E.W, no light in dungeon, no friend to hold your hand ...Yeah those were the good ol days when you had to use your brain...Today games are a joke and easy...lol
    nah .. mapping is not difficult .. just tedious and boring. I remember the first Might & Magic and the graphing paper. I am glad those days are over. 


    Arglebargle
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,023
    Popple said:
    Today games are easy compare to the Old days when you had no maps,No Markers N.S.E.W, no light in dungeon, no friend to hold your hand ...Yeah those were the good ol days when you had to use your brain...Today games are a joke and easy...lol
    nah .. mapping is not difficult .. just tedious and boring. I remember the first Might & Magic and the graphing paper. I am glad those days are over. 


    I have to say I enjoy some modern mapping features, just not when they become the equivalent of a GPS system.

    Certainly glad the graph paper days are over. 


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,884
    I would. I hate it's always that causal meh PvE then only gets hard on end-game Dungeons or Raids. 

    I think they traded difficulty for grind, the difficulty became on many the time it takes instead of your skill at it, this on the usual open-world PvE.
    Torval
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    I don't really understand the graphic paper concept.  No one was forcing you to map things out.  I never mapped anything out in UO, Everquest, or the many single player games I played.  In many ways, this is actually better because most people do all the content because they feel they need to due to the quest log and map pointing them out.  Inf fact it can often be more fun to just inadvertently skip some of the content in the game unintentionally.  After you finish the game you might find out later that there was something you missed and that is also part of the fun as you want to go back and find those little things.  If it is all mapped out the experience is rather dull IMO.

    Whether or not this is difficult or not is arguable, but I know most people in the days of EQ could not make maps or just didn't have a clue how to.  This type of information was not as easily available as most information is today.  Most people were still going on here say in the 90s.  Not many people knew what the internet was.  If you could use it, navigate it, download, install software, etc. you were far ahead of the game.  I think most of the people here that are now acquainted with computers were probably the ones being told not to be afraid to restart their device or reinstall the software.  The difficulty is relative to the time period and what is going on in it.  Now everyone thinks they are a computer expert because they can follow easy tutorials that are everywhere.  Imagine having to do things without tutorials and with crapy hardware and buggy unintuitive software that is made for super geeks entertainment.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,670
    I remember making dungeon maps in Lineage until I found screenshots of them online. I had a folder with all the important dungeon maps from the wiki and notes. Understanding the map layout in some of those dungeons, especially the tower of insolence, was very important.

    I am glad I don't have to do that anymore. I tend not to play game with features, or lack of, like that anymore.
    KyleranArglebargle
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  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Torval said:
    I remember making dungeon maps in Lineage until I found screenshots of them online. I had a folder with all the important dungeon maps from the wiki and notes. Understanding the map layout in some of those dungeons, especially the tower of insolence, was very important.

    I am glad I don't have to do that anymore. I tend not to play game with features, or lack of, like that anymore.
    It seems to me there is some measure of excitement due to getting lost.  Even with a basic idea of the layout of places in Everquest I felt fairly scared going through a dungeon in a traveling scenario like getting from Runnyeye to Freeport.  Even when I was way above the level of the enemies it was fairly scary and when you are running from a train to escape the dungeon it's easy to make a wrong turn even if you know the place via a visual map in your brain.  Personally, I think something is taken away from the experience when you have a map to guide you.   These types of games are all about exploring the unknown and potentially dangerous.  It is similar to what our ancestors would have faced when they first explored, but without any real risks.  It would all be formulated in your head.  Most games these game lack the ability to push peoples emotional buttons and I find it's kind of dull because of that.  This is the age of playing it safe or doing the safe thing.  There were games I played in the 80s and 90s which really manipulated peoples emotions through things like feeling lost, alone, in the dark, scary noises, etc.  It was all environment-related manipulation that invoked things like fear and paranoia.  This may not be considered good, but I think it can be fun to explore all the different emotions and not be regulated to just the safe ones.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,023
    Flyte27 said:
    I don't really understand the graphic paper concept.  No one was forcing you to map things out.  I never mapped anything out in UO, Everquest, or the many single player games I played.  In many ways, this is actually better because most people do all the content because they feel they need to due to the quest log and map pointing them out.  Inf fact it can often be more fun to just inadvertently skip some of the content in the game unintentionally.  After you finish the game you might find out later that there was something you missed and that is also part of the fun as you want to go back and find those little things.  If it is all mapped out the experience is rather dull IMO.

    Whether or not this is difficult or not is arguable, but I know most people in the days of EQ could not make maps or just didn't have a clue how to.  This type of information was not as easily available as most information is today.  Most people were still going on here say in the 90s.  Not many people knew what the internet was.  If you could use it, navigate it, download, install software, etc. you were far ahead of the game.  I think most of the people here that are now acquainted with computers were probably the ones being told not to be afraid to restart their device or reinstall the software.  The difficulty is relative to the time period and what is going on in it.  Now everyone thinks they are a computer expert because they can follow easy tutorials that are everywhere.  Imagine having to do things without tutorials and with crapy hardware and buggy unintuitive software that is made for super geeks entertainment.
    Graph paper is a concept from far before MMORPGS... perhaps before your time.
    ConstantineMerus

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Eldurian said:

    MMOs (Real MMOs not "Angry Birds is an MMO!") are the genre that is suffering because:

    A. They offer no challenge outside PvP.
    B. People hate MMO PvP due to level/gear imbalance.

    It's the reason there are almost no AAA titles in currently development and the majority of the titles in kickstarter are promising PvP focus, less stat disparity, and less grinding. 

    nah ... no AAA titles in development is caused by players are attractive to other games now (like MOBAs, or online shooters).

    Clearly a challenge is not needed to be financially successful in making games ... otherwise you don't see "easy mode" as an option in so many single player games.

    As for "real" MMOs, they are pretty much irrelevant whether there is a pve challenge or not.
    Easy mode being an option doesn't disprove my point. Easy is an option but so is legendary / insane / "this is deus ex" etc.

    Like you just said most people are leaving for MOBAs or Online Shooters. Games based on competition with other players (An inherently challenge mode) where you don't even have stat gap to protect you if you suck.

    "Easy" games are suffering. Challenging games are consuming their player base. Thanks for backing up my point.
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    edited October 2017
    I don't play games for difficulty, I play them for fun. A challenging game can however still be fun (like Dark Souls).

    Challenge in MMOs however has always come down to...

    For PvE-
    "get 20+ people into a raid group! be a lemming and follow the leader, listen to what he says like a good little lemming and stay out of the fire"

    PvP is probably more challenging, but for MMOs has always come down to-
    -Zerg the enemy
    -Overpower the enemy with OP items/skills.
    -Gank that little level 1 or low skilled noob over and over to make him quit the game


    MMOs have never once at all been challenging. Planetside 2 is probably the only challenging MMO because it relies on pure skill, not overpowered characters or/and items. EVE gets really close too to being actually challenging. But both end up with zergs winning against any small group player

    If you want true challenge and skill, MMOs are NOT the genre to be in. Play MOBAs like league of legends or heroes of the storm...true challenging games that rely on teamwork, no overpowered characters and you can't gank a level 1 over and over.

    Otherwise, there is no challenge in being level 110 ganking low levels or maxed skilled or having overpowered items, and there is definitely no challenge in being in a zerg. Nor is there a challenge in being a little lemming in raid content. 

    However, both those statements change if you are the leader of a raid or leader of a PvP group. That is true challenge, and actually a lot of fun too if that is what your into. 

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    edited October 2017
    Imagine if there was an MMO like Dark Souls. Dark, depressing world, get killed in 2-3 hits at most, intense combat...raids would be hard...PvP would be even harder...

    That would be true fun. Though I'd like to see it balanced that a level 1 could still kill a max level in 2-3 hits otherwise it just becomes a gankfest of PvPers wanting to kill their own MMO by driving out newbies to the game.

    If even a level 1 could kill a max level, that would be a true challenge and skillful game. It be like a FPS in many ways. Very different than most MMOs that have no challenge when you have overpowered items/skills/levels. PvPers in the MMO genre aren't true PvPers like you see in MOBAs, most of them just want to gank newbies and kill their MMO by driving away players. They don't really want a true PvP experience.

    In fact PvPers are bigger carebears in MMOs than even PvErs or RPers. Any time something happens that effects them they whine harder than any PvEr ever does lol. And take away their overpoweredness and they whine even harder still. They don't want a challenging atmosphere, they just want to gank level 1s.

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    I don't play games for difficulty, ....
    ... Dark, depressing world, get killed in 2-3 hits at most, intense combat...raids would be hard...PvP would be even harder...

    ...
    I am trying to resolve these two statements

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

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