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3.0 Spoilers From An Evocati

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  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    Can anybody of the experts explain to me please what this "Debug Mode" that is eating away many FPS is doing? And why is it only in the build of the first evocati test group but not in the other Alpha test groups?

    @DKLond
    anything that can be done in a singleplayer game can be done in an MMO, in a visual sense.
    While this is true though higher visuals will have an impact on network performance if the client is lagging (Video Lag)

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    Well DU are designing the game with the networking technology right from the start instead of building it around single server stuff and then trying to expand it into large mesh servers.

    That's because DU already did the single-server stuff, you don't have multiple servers sustaining the game world and scaling before you have the actual individual servers that will do that worked out for sure.


    The point you seem to be missing is that if they are struggling to get >10 people on one server how the hell are they going to manage getting hundreds of thousands in one instance.
    Okay I think there's a misunderstanding here of what is meant as one instance, not as a "single-server" as it is now, that instance would already be the mesh of servers. So say this applies better for the word other MMO's use: Regions/Channels (individually run copies of the same world).
    Gdemami
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    Can anybody of the experts explain to me please what this "Debug Mode" that is eating away many FPS is doing? And why is it only in the build of the first evocati test group but not in the other Alpha test groups?
    Server performance pretty much ties to the performance of the clients, hence if servers are on debug they are cut on performance that will impact the clients that way.

    That's why server memory leaks also cause player FPS issues, noticing how the server degrades over time (they confirmed those are mostly memory-related at least).

    And because that's the point of Evocati? The heavy more localized debugging and stress testing, those builds are not meant to be played, yet tested.

    Octagon7711Gdemami
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,497
    MaxBacon said:
    Well DU are designing the game with the networking technology right from the start instead of building it around single server stuff and then trying to expand it into large mesh servers.

    That's because DU already did the single-server stuff, you don't have multiple servers sustaining the game world and scaling before you have the actual individual servers that will do that worked out for sure.

    Did the single server stuff with what exactly? It's not like thet had an abundance of assets to test performance and capabilities.

    MaxBacon said:
    The point you seem to be missing is that if they are struggling to get >10 people on one server how the hell are they going to manage getting hundreds of thousands in one instance.
    Okay I think there's a misunderstanding here of what is meant as one instance, not as a "single-server" as it is now, that instance would already be the mesh of servers. So say this applies better for the word other MMO's use: Regions/Channels (individually run copies of the same world).
    That's the problem with redefining terms that have existed to mean one thing for many many years now. We have servers, shards and instances for a reason.

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,967
    I don't think Dual Universe has a working game out yet.  As I remember they were accused of using heavy editing to make their presentations look like they were running better than was actually possible.  I don't remember what happened to those accusations but it was a big deal for awhile.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    MaxBacon said:
    Can anybody of the experts explain to me please what this "Debug Mode" that is eating away many FPS is doing? And why is it only in the build of the first evocati test group but not in the other Alpha test groups?
    Server performance pretty much ties to the performance of the clients, hence if servers are on debug they are cut on performance that will impact the clients that way.

    That's why server memory leaks also cause player FPS issues, noticing how the server degrades over time (they confirmed those are mostly memory-related at least).

    And because that's the point of Evocati? The heavy more localized debugging and stress testing, those builds are not meant to be played, yet tested.

    So you want to enable good ole ECS Docker Daemon as long as there are max 1000 players on your server cloud to monitor memory leaks but you disable it when more players are logging into your system because all memory leaks are solved prior to this phase.

    Yes this makes absolutely sense to me, thank you.

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    So you want to enable good ole ECS Docker Daemon as long as there are max 1000 players on your server cloud to monitor memory leaks but you disable it when more players are logging into your system because all memory leaks are solved prior to this phase.

    Yes this makes absolutely sense to me, thank you.
    I'm not sure how do they track server memory leaks with them running on the AWS platform. But either way for crashes and other issues the debugs are most fundamental, there are things you can reproduce in your own dev environment and there are others you can't.

    I don't think Dual Universe has a working game out yet.  As I remember they were accused of using heavy editing to make their presentations look like they were running better than was actually possible.  I don't remember what happened to those accusations but it was a big deal for awhile.
    Not sure about that, but they have already demonstrated the prototypes of their network setup working, of course tech always takes its time to be working with the actual game but in the case of DU that shows to be their biggest focus.
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    MaxBacon said:
    DKLond said:
    Yeah, the game with a tiny handful of players and no capital ships to speak of - and 90% of the features missing can perform reasonably well right now in Arena Commander.

    I'm talking about the game as it's planned - and how hardware expectations will have changed at that time.

    But, let's see how well 970 handles the MVP :)
    I will say those features will cost more to your CPU than they would to your GPU.

    It's also a big reason why people with beefy GPUs complain of performance on games that are heavy in simulation/physics.
    It will cost more all-round. But displaying large capital ships and dozens of detailed entities in close proximity WILL tax your GPU a hell of a lot more than now.

    Obviously, you can just lower the settings - but it's a deliberate decision to target high-end hardware for the "true" experience.

    You can be absolutely certain that CR and his team will keep adding visual fidelity until they can't push it anymore.
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    Can anybody of the experts explain to me please what this "Debug Mode" that is eating away many FPS is doing? And why is it only in the build of the first evocati test group but not in the other Alpha test groups?

    @DKLond
    anything that can be done in a singleplayer game can be done in an MMO, in a visual sense.
    While this is true though higher visuals will have an impact on network performance if the client is lagging (Video Lag)
    Not at all. The client performance will never impact network performance for other players. At most, it will mean delays in syncing that particular client's animations and position.
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    DKLond said:
    Can anybody of the experts explain to me please what this "Debug Mode" that is eating away many FPS is doing? And why is it only in the build of the first evocati test group but not in the other Alpha test groups?

    @DKLond
    anything that can be done in a singleplayer game can be done in an MMO, in a visual sense.
    While this is true though higher visuals will have an impact on network performance if the client is lagging (Video Lag)
    Not at all. The client performance will never impact network performance for other players. At most, it will mean delays in syncing that particular client's animations and position.
    Well if you say so, seems like I have to call my old SOE team to tell them we were wrong back in the days.
    Octagon7711ScotchUp

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    edited October 2017
    DKLond said:
    Can anybody of the experts explain to me please what this "Debug Mode" that is eating away many FPS is doing? And why is it only in the build of the first evocati test group but not in the other Alpha test groups?

    @DKLond
    anything that can be done in a singleplayer game can be done in an MMO, in a visual sense.
    While this is true though higher visuals will have an impact on network performance if the client is lagging (Video Lag)
    Not at all. The client performance will never impact network performance for other players. At most, it will mean delays in syncing that particular client's animations and position.
    Well if you say so, seems like I have to call my old SOE team to tell them we were wrong back in the days.
    Well, that - or you can use your brain just a little. If client performance could possibly affect network performance for other players - then it would mean you could simply log on to the game with piece of shit hardware and break the gameplay for everyone. Not exactly a likely state of affairs. If your brain can't understand this, then just play any stable MMO in existence and notice how your latency doesn't wildly jump on and down - which it would certainly do if client performance was a relevant factor in network performance. What you will see, instead, is players not always moving perfectly along their path - and sometimes they seem to "jump" ahead or make rubberband movements. This is what happens when client and server isn't in perfect sync - and that's the only thing that will affect you in terms of other players.
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    When you get to the point that the defenders are redefining commonly accepted definitions for words you know its time to walk away and just accept they are too far gone to accept reality.

    Hell, SC repeatedly has been shown to say one thing only for the white knights try and redefine the english language to spin everything....just look at the Whitehouse.
    OrinoriOdeezee
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    Definitely time to walk away if all you can do is claim bullshit with zero underpinning over and over again ;)

    Also, not understanding what words mean doesn't quite equate to a commonly accepted definition.
    ShodanasOdeezee
  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933
    When you get to the point that the defenders are redefining commonly accepted definitions for words you know its time to walk away and just accept they are too far gone to accept reality.

    Hell, SC repeatedly has been shown to say one thing only for the white knights try and redefine the english language to spin everything....just look at the Whitehouse.
    Could you be a little more specific ? Not that the long list of arguments you presented isn't adequate, just clear up some vague points.
    OrinoriOdeezee
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    DKLond said:
    It will cost more all-round. But displaying large capital ships and dozens of detailed entities in close proximity WILL tax your GPU a hell of a lot more than now.

    Obviously, you can just lower the settings - but it's a deliberate decision to target high-end hardware for the "true" experience.

    You can be absolutely certain that CR and his team will keep adding visual fidelity until they can't push it anymore.
    Don't really think so.

    For example, SC is not building assets in 4K textures, to make it look good as that they use is several techniques to get the detail up while using 1k textures, they push the visuals as much but you can see it's contained.
    Octagon7711Gdemami
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    edited October 2017
    MaxBacon said:
    DKLond said:
    It will cost more all-round. But displaying large capital ships and dozens of detailed entities in close proximity WILL tax your GPU a hell of a lot more than now.

    Obviously, you can just lower the settings - but it's a deliberate decision to target high-end hardware for the "true" experience.

    You can be absolutely certain that CR and his team will keep adding visual fidelity until they can't push it anymore.
    Don't really think so.

    For example, SC is not building assets in 4K textures, to make it look good as that they use is several techniques to get the detail up while using 1k textures, they push the visuals as much but you can see it's contained.
    They're going for the best visuals regardless - and they don't compromise. 4K textures "just because" doesn't automatically mean it's the best approach for the best looking game. They will go with the combination that gives the greatest return - but they will STILL target high-end hardware.

    But, I don't really see the point of arguing about something we can't know.

    I'm just saying what I'm, personally, convinced will be the case.

    Again, fortunately, all we have to do is wait and see how it turns out.

    If, indeed, the released game will run well with a 970 GPU with all the bells and whistles - I will most definitely concede that you were right and I was wrong.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    DKLond said:
    They're going for the best visuals regardless. But, I don't really see the point of arguing about something we can't know.

    I'm just saying what I'm, personally, convinced will be the case.

    Again, fortunately, all we have to do is wait and see how it turns out.

    If, indeed, the released game will run well with a 970 GPU with all the bells and whistles - I will most definitely concede that you were right and I was wrong.
    It's already seen on how they build assets, if they were going for best visuals at any cost (hardware weight for example), they would be, like some games, be creating assets in 4K. While they do quite good upgrades, say the lightning, the now ongoing VFX and the works on Fog, it's always the best visuals at the best performance, you can see some of the graphical refactors are done to be able to do more as cheapest as possible (exactly what they done with GPU Particles and Fog).
    Gdemami
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    MaxBacon said:
    DKLond said:
    They're going for the best visuals regardless. But, I don't really see the point of arguing about something we can't know.

    I'm just saying what I'm, personally, convinced will be the case.

    Again, fortunately, all we have to do is wait and see how it turns out.

    If, indeed, the released game will run well with a 970 GPU with all the bells and whistles - I will most definitely concede that you were right and I was wrong.
    It's already seen on how they build assets, if they were going for best visuals at any cost (hardware weight for example), they would be, like some games, be creating assets in 4K. While they do quite good upgrades, say the lightning, the now ongoing VFX and the works on Fog, it's always the best visuals at the best performance, you can see some of the graphical refactors are done to be able to do more as cheapest as possible (exactly what they done with GPU Particles and Fog).
    I guess you just want to argue about nothing, then.

    Fine, if you insist.

    Here's some logic for you:

    What's best: 4K textures alone (taking up a LOT more memory than 1K textures) OR 1K textures with other memory intensive effects added?

    CIG will go for the BEST overall visuals that can run on high-end hardware. Since they have brains, they're not just upping resolution on everything - because, unlike you, they understand that resolution is far from the only quality factor appealing to the human eye.

    The reason they're going cheap when possible is because they want more than one thing happening on screen. They don't want "just fog" or "just high res textures" - they want the optimal combination of all effects combined to give you the best possible visual fidelity in modern gaming.

    I don't just claim this. CR has stated this publically again and again - from the very first. They're going all in and they're going PC-only because only PC hardware will be able to handle it.

    That is indisputable.

    Translation: a 970 at the time of release will NOT be able to run this game at 40+ FPS with all the bells and whistles.

    In any case, I'm done here.

    Time will tell either way.


  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    edited October 2017
    DKLond said:
    I guess you just want to argue about nothing, then.
    What I am telling is that they are not blindly going for the best visuals, the balance is the cheapest way they can achieve the best visuals, and techniques that allow such.

    One of the biggest examples on that is the LODs, from ships to planets the visual quality is high, the cheap of it to allow for those high visuals without asking for much of your hardware is creating many low-texture and details assets that you will see when looking at something from certain distances. It's the cheapest ways to achieve good visuals, not the best possible visuals.

    I think in terms of graphics the game will maintain, on one side more and improved things here and there, in the other one proper optimization phase still to come. And on the other, the continuous new hardware coming that by I don't think it will require high-end for max settings at good frames when SQ42/SC release.
    Gdemami
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    DKLond said:
    DKLond said:
    Can anybody of the experts explain to me please what this "Debug Mode" that is eating away many FPS is doing? And why is it only in the build of the first evocati test group but not in the other Alpha test groups?

    @DKLond
    anything that can be done in a singleplayer game can be done in an MMO, in a visual sense.
    While this is true though higher visuals will have an impact on network performance if the client is lagging (Video Lag)
    Not at all. The client performance will never impact network performance for other players. At most, it will mean delays in syncing that particular client's animations and position.
    Well if you say so, seems like I have to call my old SOE team to tell them we were wrong back in the days.
    Well, that - or you can use your brain just a little. If client performance could possibly affect network performance for other players - then it would mean you could simply log on to the game with piece of shit hardware and break the gameplay for everyone. Not exactly a likely state of affairs. If your brain can't understand this, then just play any stable MMO in existence and notice how your latency doesn't wildly jump on and down - which it would certainly do if client performance was a relevant factor in network performance. What you will see, instead, is players not always moving perfectly along their path - and sometimes they seem to "jump" ahead or make rubberband movements. This is what happens when client and server isn't in perfect sync - and that's the only thing that will affect you in terms of other players.
    Exactly, Game Server syncs at 30FPS on slow paced and 60FPS on fast paced games. this has nothing to do with your video FPS. If your Video FPS is faster than the UDP sync rate (Assuming here that you have a good connection) then UDP is fine and happy.
    If your Video FPS drops to far away from the sync rate then Rubberbanding and shadowing happens. this also affect other players because they will experience your shadow character and maybe wonder why you are unkillable. The Server protocol has to interpolate the missing data, basically UDP is guessing what may happen next. if you know how to force this you can do funny things like walk through walls (in SC you can bug into ship hulls) just by blocking a simple UDP port for a few ms.

    If you have a game where every other player is rubberbanding, shadowing and bugging around the game experience for the players will be subpar. To avoid this online games tend to use graphics 1 or 2 generations below the actual Single player experience. In a MMO you can not forsee all situations that will lead to lag (like places where 50 players loiter around because there is something interesting).

    The more complex a game is the more funny things will hapen due to this effect.
    Gdemami

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    On another Q&A: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IVkHKvgv-u-yIQXD3rReqm7r3y83S-h8u3vhuPTAQ44/edit

    Can you flip a wheeled Vehicle?

    Not sure if you can do it intentionally and on-demand as a stunt. I’ve seen it happen as a bug where they ended upside down if that’s what you mean.


    Is the power system more robust? (I.E. can you turn things off completely now?)

    Yes and no.

    The build has the new item 2.0/inner thought system and also there has been some work done with the MFDs and UI, so there is some things that can be done now which you couldn’t in the past. Of course since they moved to item 2.0 they have to hook all the items and usables to the system and it isn’t all done yet. So the things that are hooked up work pretty well, but not everything is yet, and not all the ships are in the same stage. They have however been adding more of this to different ships  in each of the builds we’re getting, so it seems like they’re moving pretty fast at adding this stuff perhaps.


    How’s the landing gear?

    Super great! It’s not entirely perfect and of course it varies from ship to ship, but overall it’s working pretty well. Big notable exception however are the ships that don’t have landing gear (like the bikes). They’re still having issues.


    How are the Sucker Punches?

    No idea as combat has yet to become a focus in testing.


    Can you disable ships?

    See above.


    How does ship locking work?

    I don’t know


    Can you blow off doors?

    See above / I don’t think so


    Underwater caves on Yela? Better Question: Water on Yela?

    I’ve seen ice/snow, haven’t seen water personally. The moons are really big though, not even close to having seen all of it.


    Have they added the render to texture videos for landing?

    The landing system is one of the things they’ve been changing throughout the patches. Yes, sort of, depends where, it’ll probably change more.


    There’s a patch error right now so this is all based on the previous build and previous experiences as no access currently.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    edited October 2017
    Evocati is going on its 8th patch already: https://pastebin.com/RHstryP4

    Improvements on FPS in the PU servers but to be seen if it will sustain, the chats show clearly it's the biggest ongoing effort they want to mitigate before the PTU.

    Also another big focus in terms of flight model is the changes on the Afterburner https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uu6RXWjaGBoyQX65Dq3jXlmbkpGAZ0csZBUlM9-eGsY/edit (lost pt1 rip)


    The current sprint is the Cargo and Shopping, receiving a polish pass that should move testing for pretty much what trading is on 3.0; after this, the sprint will be for the mission system, its procedural generation, its game loops, etc...
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    MaxBacon said:

    Also another big focus in terms of flight model is the changes on the Afterburner https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uu6RXWjaGBoyQX65Dq3jXlmbkpGAZ0csZBUlM9-eGsY/edit (lost pt1 rip)

    Very nice, this is very close to what I use to discuss on the RSI forums, only difference being that I hoped everyone had same eventual max speed, but I don't think there will be too many issues for my brain this way either, same outcome pretty much. Look forward to seeing it.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    Orinori said:
    Very nice, this is very close to what I use to discuss on the RSI forums, only difference being that I hoped everyone had same eventual max speed, but I don't think there will be too many issues for my brain this way either, same outcome pretty much. Look forward to seeing it.
    There are bits of changes and improvements.

    What is said is that the actual flight model will get a pass after 3.0, especially the atmospheric flight, currently shows the focus to be to improve the actual cockpits.
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