Make a multiple of classes with a single or hybrid role: Then balance for role, so all tank chars are balanced, all dps classes are balanced, and all whatever are balanced. Make the difference between classes large. Then create a bunch of side class that have specific ancillary roles. Make sure they are so specialized they can't also tank, dps, or heal.
I don't believe in balancing for PvP in a PvE game. If you want to do single target damage that's what you do, but the cons should be real and severe.
That's my take on the balancing. I just wouldn't bother balancing PvP in a PvE game. I think open PvP depends on terrain and tactics. You're a tank and you come from behind on a wizard, you should be able to disrupt the spells and kill it with ease. If a wizard comes on an unsuspecting tank from far away, they should be able to nuke the Tank easily. It's like if two people are trying to murder each other, one has a sword and the other has a sniper gun.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
The problem is most of the people replying to this thread don't understand how the game works.
For example, you're not limited to just a Destruction Staff as a Magicka user, DW and Two hander are both viable options, So is Sword/Shield. You will not generally use the actual base skills in the line (Except for Two Handers Forward Momentum) but you do use the passives in some regards. The Two hander ultimate is incredibly popular right now with Certain builds as well because ultimates scales based on your highest stats. If you're on No CP PvP as well you also don't have to worry about CP increasing things like Physical or Fire damage.
As for hybrid builds, Generally you'll use Damage abilities and support skills will be used by your non primary stat.
The Two hander ultimate is incredibly popular right now with Certain builds as well because ultimates scales based on your highest stats. If you're on No CP PvP as well you also don't have to worry about CP increasing things like Physical or Fire damage.
Yes. The ultimates do scale off the higher stat but that's not all they do. They also do a specific type of damage.
In the case of the 2HD ultimate, it does physical damage so it gets 0 bonuses from any passives from your class, CP or anything else that buffs magic damage which is what any decent magicka build will stack.
Basically poison and physical damage is for stamina builds and magic and elemental for magicka. If you use an ultimate with the wrong type for your build you're leaving damage on the table.
Edit: And an easy way to check this out is with the Warden Ultimate bear: One morph does physical damage and the other one magic damage. Hovering your mouse over each morph will show you a damage difference that favors one or the other depending on your build.
Post edited by Iselin on
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
To my perspective the problem is ZoS is trying to balance around two totally separate play styles at the same time, and achieving neither.
Until they separate how skills work in PvE and PvP the balance in this game is going to remain a joke. The game already has skills that do this, so it can be done.
Right now what they are calling balance is to nerf pretty much everything around PvP, and to hell with how it affects the PvE side of the game.
JMO
That's pretty typical of any game that shares the same spells/mechanics between PVE and PVP. Most games that have both are balanced around PVP and PVE usually suffers for it. If they each and their own gear and mechanics then they could tweak them to their hearts content and not have to worry about how it affects the other.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
This game is the best example in recent history of broken. What could of been an amazing game, fell completely apart after Orsinium. And now you complain about 'balance issues'? Lol. I ran for the hills after Thieves Guild and the rumors of the dreaded cash boxes. And then 'One Tamriel'?!?!?! I still get an upset tummy when I see people talk about this game. I had such high hopes for it, but if I were to play now, I would just go to the sewers....alone....and wouldn't see a soul.
From a pvp perspective, the balance is so much better than when the game launched. ESO used to be possibly the most unbalanced game ever made, certainly the most unbalanced I have ever played. There was a time when a single player could fight and win against hordes of other players, don't think you could even do that in p2w games like AA. Thankfully those days are long gone.
Imo the best thing they could do to further improve pvp balance would be to disable CP in all pvp modes and tweak regen/damage etc around non-CP stats. Other good things would be stopping animation cancelling, enable trading of dungeon gear, and perhaps block casting. Unfortunately all totally unrealistic.
Here is my favorite video of the good ol' days of awesome balance:
From a pvp perspective, the balance is so much better than when the game launched. ESO used to be possibly the most unbalanced game ever made, certainly the most unbalanced I have ever played. There was a time when a single player could fight and win against hordes of other players, don't think you could even do that in p2w games like AA. Thankfully those days are long gone.
Imo the best thing they could do to further improve pvp balance would be to disable CP in all pvp modes and tweak regen/damage etc around non-CP stats. Other good things would be stopping animation cancelling, enable trading of dungeon gear, and perhaps block casting. Unfortunately all totally unrealistic.
Here is my favorite video of the good ol' days of awesome balance:
Lol. Vamp, DK and permablock with shield... not to mention shield bash that did more damage than most abilities. 4 OP... 4 OP in one
Yup, those were certainly the bad old days. People that didn't PVP in 2014 have no clue. Not that it stops them from crying "Nerf sorc!" in the forums on a daily basis.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Here's a simple solution! Eliminate PVP that would solve the need to have a balance team anyways! Who needs it. All it does is call for constant change to a game that was working fine when it launched in regards to the damage the skill already did.
Yeah, animation canceling was another lesser reason I couldn't continue playing the game.
And your solution would be?
Would you have no animations? Its an option but people would attack you for producing a (graphically) boring game and call you a bad developer.
Would you make it so that people had to wait until an animation had completed before they could cast another spell. Its also an option and - you guessed it - people would attack you for producing a game that had boring content that constrained them - and you would be called a bad developer.
Or would you opt for the much debated global cool down (gcd). Allowing you to cast another spell after a certain period of time has passed even if a previous animation has not yet finished. Secondary choice: do you have gcd with or without animation cancelling? Its an option and - roll of the drums - you will be attacked on all fronts.
All fronts. Gcd as a minimun is sytem cancelling - its just a case of how long you have to wait (endless critics and discussions about balance). And to avoid the potential animation freezes it often comes with animation cancelling as well!
So ... which would you pick? You have to choose one there are no others.
Its fine to say "I don't like what they have done and as a result the game is not for me". To suggest that Zenimax have dropped the ball somehow is wrong.
As it stands the system is a known quantity with no ambiguity. And people can - if they wish - allow the animations to play out in full or not. Their choice.
Yeah, animation canceling was another lesser reason I couldn't continue playing the game.
And your solution would be?
Would you have no animations? Its an option but people would attack you for producing a (graphically) boring game and call you a bad developer.
Would you make it so that people had to wait until an animation had completed before they could cast another spell. Its also an option and - you guessed it - people would attack you for producing a game that had boring content that constrained them - and you would be called a bad developer.
Or would you opt for the much debated global cool down (gcd). Allowing you to cast another spell after a certain period of time has passed even if a previous animation has not yet finished. Secondary choice: do you have gcd with or without animation cancelling? Its an option and - roll of the drums - you will be attacked on all fronts.
All fronts. Gcd as a minimun is sytem cancelling - its just a case of how long you have to wait (endless critics and discussions about balance). And to avoid the potential animation freezes it often comes with animation cancelling as well!
So ... which would you pick? You have to choose one there are no others.
Its fine to say "I don't like what they have done and as a result the game is not for me". To suggest that Zenimax have dropped the ball somehow is wrong.
As it stands the system is a known quantity with no ambiguity. And people can - if they wish - allow the animations to play out in full or not. Their choice.
You do what most good action games already implement: the player has to wait for the animation to finish before casting another ability, unless they have a skill (like dodge roll) that breaks them out (but doesn't do damage).
In fact this was apparently how ESO was meant to work; animation cancelling is a programming issue that the developers decided to call a "feature" when they couldn't fix it.
(It doesn't stop me playing the game and its still my favorite mmo overall atm, but I would prefer that it didn't function like that)
Yeah, animation canceling was another lesser reason I couldn't continue playing the game.
It's one part of ESO that over-separates the quick twitch reflex players (or the KB or mouse macro cheaters users) from the rest and gives them a hefty advantage.
I never thought I would miss the weapon auto attack system from older MMOs but this almost makes me miss it. I want to spend my time and key presses using cool abilities, not just using standard vanilla weapon attacks but in ESO, we must.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
This game is the best example in recent history of broken. What could of been an amazing game, fell completely apart after Orsinium. And now you complain about 'balance issues'? Lol. I ran for the hills after Thieves Guild and the rumors of the dreaded cash boxes. And then 'One Tamriel'?!?!?! I still get an upset tummy when I see people talk about this game. I had such high hopes for it, but if I were to play now, I would just go to the sewers....alone....and wouldn't see a soul.
Why is it broken?
Clearly not with Orsinium so was it the introduction of the new skill lines? Doubtful.
From a balance perspective - as you will know - the base differences between character A and character B are very minimal - minor racial difference and a different class skill line. Lots of skill lines though, with options, all available to all characters. Beyond that all characters are the same. It simply comes down to how they are geared and how they are played.
Plus people can change their skills and swap their gear as long as they are not in combat - so almost on the fly. And if they feel they have totally messed up the distribution of their skill points etc. all characters can respec. Which is easy to do - once they are sufficiently developed that the gold needed isn't a problem. (When starting out the gold needed would be an issue but anyone new can rest assured that fundamentally any choice made can be redone).
Add in that the game is alt friendly. If you feel for some reason that you absolutely must have a particular class of a particular race (!) then all you need do is make one and level it to 50. At which point it gets the cp level of all your other characters. (OK gear and PvP rank would have to be obtained but if someone is this much of a min-maxer this will not be an issue.)
So from a balance perspective - player balance - its arguably one of the best examples out there.
Cash boxes are ... cash boxes. I and many others expressed concerns just like yours. WE felt the same pain. Fortunately they do not - caveat: at this moment in time - impact game play. So its a case of Dr. Strangelove: or how I learned to stop worrying and simply ignored the cash box.
One Tamriel: changed the game beyond any shadow of a doubt. It became less linear and arguably blew a hole in the story arcs - which are worth doing I will add - but this is what "people" wanted. It allowed people to gain decent gear without having to spend an age learning to craft or save much gold - which again addressed another complaint. And was it One Tamriel that made the game alt friendly? think it was. Whilst I totally agree that One Tamriel changed the game it has been widely hailed as a huge success - and without it I am sure the game would not have been as popular as it has become.
As for not seeing anyone in the sewers - I will assume that you talking about the (4 person) dungeon instance(s). (You can go into the sewers alone but why would you!) Whilst its certainly true that there is a lot of content as a result of the DLCs (a good thing yes?) which - inevitably - spreads out the population the biggest factor will be the guild "dailies". For better or for worse these make it very quick to queue for the instances featured in the daily list and slower for all others. Same sentiment applies even if you have a guild that does content - instances featured in the dailies are more popular. That said I would be very surprised if you didn't get a group - at the very least there are usually some new players wanting to do stuff.
If your biggest gripe is the cash boxes - just ignore them. If you have simply got bored - well "all games get boring". When that happens its time to move on. Return later maybe. A game becoming boring at some point. Doesn't make it a bad game though.
Yeah, animation canceling was another lesser reason I couldn't continue playing the game.
And your solution would be?
Would you have no animations? Its an option but people would attack you for producing a (graphically) boring game and call you a bad developer.
Would you make it so that people had to wait until an animation had completed before they could cast another spell. Its also an option and - you guessed it - people would attack you for producing a game that had boring content that constrained them - and you would be called a bad developer.
Or would you opt for the much debated global cool down (gcd). Allowing you to cast another spell after a certain period of time has passed even if a previous animation has not yet finished. Secondary choice: do you have gcd with or without animation cancelling? Its an option and - roll of the drums - you will be attacked on all fronts.
All fronts. Gcd as a minimun is sytem cancelling - its just a case of how long you have to wait (endless critics and discussions about balance). And to avoid the potential animation freezes it often comes with animation cancelling as well!
So ... which would you pick? You have to choose one there are no others.
Its fine to say "I don't like what they have done and as a result the game is not for me". To suggest that Zenimax have dropped the ball somehow is wrong.
As it stands the system is a known quantity with no ambiguity. And people can - if they wish - allow the animations to play out in full or not. Their choice.
You do what most good action games already implement: the player has to wait for the animation to finish before casting another ability, unless they have a skill (like dodge roll) that breaks them out (but doesn't do damage).
In fact this was apparently how ESO was meant to work; animation cancelling is a programming issue that the developers decided to call a "feature" when they couldn't fix it.
(It doesn't stop me playing the game and its still my favorite mmo overall atm, but I would prefer that it didn't function like that)
You can indeed. I haven't come across a game yet though which doesn't have complainers. (Shooters seem to have less but even they seem to have never ending threads about balance). You can even find posts in these forums complaining that ESO combat was boring because they had to wait for the animations to finish.
The key point is: whatever decision a developer makes they won't get it "right" for everyone.
Yeah, animation canceling was another lesser reason I couldn't continue playing the game.
It's one part of ESO that over-separates the quick twitch reflex players (or the KB or mouse macro cheaters users) from the rest and gives them a hefty advantage.
I never thought I would miss the weapon auto attack system from older MMOs but this almost makes me miss it. I want to spend my time and key presses using cool abilities, not just using standard vanilla weapon attacks but in ESO, we must.
Agree.
I "like" it since I like cool effects etc. and don't go for twitch / macro play but as it is it is very "clean".
Comments
Make a multiple of classes with a single or hybrid role: Then balance for role, so all tank chars are balanced, all dps classes are balanced, and all whatever are balanced. Make the difference between classes large. Then create a bunch of side class that have specific ancillary roles. Make sure they are so specialized they can't also tank, dps, or heal.
I don't believe in balancing for PvP in a PvE game. If you want to do single target damage that's what you do, but the cons should be real and severe.
That's my take on the balancing. I just wouldn't bother balancing PvP in a PvE game. I think open PvP depends on terrain and tactics. You're a tank and you come from behind on a wizard, you should be able to disrupt the spells and kill it with ease. If a wizard comes on an unsuspecting tank from far away, they should be able to nuke the Tank easily. It's like if two people are trying to murder each other, one has a sword and the other has a sniper gun.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
For example, you're not limited to just a Destruction Staff as a Magicka user, DW and Two hander are both viable options, So is Sword/Shield. You will not generally use the actual base skills in the line (Except for Two Handers Forward Momentum) but you do use the passives in some regards. The Two hander ultimate is incredibly popular right now with Certain builds as well because ultimates scales based on your highest stats. If you're on No CP PvP as well you also don't have to worry about CP increasing things like Physical or Fire damage.
As for hybrid builds, Generally you'll use Damage abilities and support skills will be used by your non primary stat.
In the case of the 2HD ultimate, it does physical damage so it gets 0 bonuses from any passives from your class, CP or anything else that buffs magic damage which is what any decent magicka build will stack.
Basically poison and physical damage is for stamina builds and magic and elemental for magicka. If you use an ultimate with the wrong type for your build you're leaving damage on the table.
Edit: And an easy way to check this out is with the Warden Ultimate bear: One morph does physical damage and the other one magic damage. Hovering your mouse over each morph will show you a damage difference that favors one or the other depending on your build.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That's pretty typical of any game that shares the same spells/mechanics between PVE and PVP. Most games that have both are balanced around PVP and PVE usually suffers for it. If they each and their own gear and mechanics then they could tweak them to their hearts content and not have to worry about how it affects the other.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
Imo the best thing they could do to further improve pvp balance would be to disable CP in all pvp modes and tweak regen/damage etc around non-CP stats. Other good things would be stopping animation cancelling, enable trading of dungeon gear, and perhaps block casting. Unfortunately all totally unrealistic.
Here is my favorite video of the good ol' days of awesome balance:
Yup, those were certainly the bad old days. People that didn't PVP in 2014 have no clue. Not that it stops them from crying "Nerf sorc!" in the forums on a daily basis.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Would you have no animations? Its an option but people would attack you for producing a (graphically) boring game and call you a bad developer.
Would you make it so that people had to wait until an animation had completed before they could cast another spell. Its also an option and - you guessed it - people would attack you for producing a game that had boring content that constrained them - and you would be called a bad developer.
Or would you opt for the much debated global cool down (gcd). Allowing you to cast another spell after a certain period of time has passed even if a previous animation has not yet finished. Secondary choice: do you have gcd with or without animation cancelling? Its an option and - roll of the drums - you will be attacked on all fronts.
All fronts. Gcd as a minimun is sytem cancelling - its just a case of how long you have to wait (endless critics and discussions about balance). And to avoid the potential animation freezes it often comes with animation cancelling as well!
So ... which would you pick? You have to choose one there are no others.
Its fine to say "I don't like what they have done and as a result the game is not for me". To suggest that Zenimax have dropped the ball somehow is wrong.
As it stands the system is a known quantity with no ambiguity. And people can - if they wish - allow the animations to play out in full or not. Their choice.
In fact this was apparently how ESO was meant to work; animation cancelling is a programming issue that the developers decided to call a "feature" when they couldn't fix it.
(It doesn't stop me playing the game and its still my favorite mmo overall atm, but I would prefer that it didn't function like that)
I never thought I would miss the weapon auto attack system from older MMOs but this almost makes me miss it. I want to spend my time and key presses using cool abilities, not just using standard vanilla weapon attacks but in ESO, we must.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Clearly not with Orsinium so was it the introduction of the new skill lines? Doubtful.
From a balance perspective - as you will know - the base differences between character A and character B are very minimal - minor racial difference and a different class skill line. Lots of skill lines though, with options, all available to all characters. Beyond that all characters are the same. It simply comes down to how they are geared and how they are played.
Plus people can change their skills and swap their gear as long as they are not in combat - so almost on the fly. And if they feel they have totally messed up the distribution of their skill points etc. all characters can respec. Which is easy to do - once they are sufficiently developed that the gold needed isn't a problem. (When starting out the gold needed would be an issue but anyone new can rest assured that fundamentally any choice made can be redone).
Add in that the game is alt friendly. If you feel for some reason that you absolutely must have a particular class of a particular race (!) then all you need do is make one and level it to 50. At which point it gets the cp level of all your other characters. (OK gear and PvP rank would have to be obtained but if someone is this much of a min-maxer this will not be an issue.)
So from a balance perspective - player balance - its arguably one of the best examples out there.
Cash boxes are ... cash boxes. I and many others expressed concerns just like yours. WE felt the same pain. Fortunately they do not - caveat: at this moment in time - impact game play. So its a case of Dr. Strangelove: or how I learned to stop worrying and simply ignored the cash box.
One Tamriel: changed the game beyond any shadow of a doubt. It became less linear and arguably blew a hole in the story arcs - which are worth doing I will add - but this is what "people" wanted. It allowed people to gain decent gear without having to spend an age learning to craft or save much gold - which again addressed another complaint. And was it One Tamriel that made the game alt friendly? think it was. Whilst I totally agree that One Tamriel changed the game it has been widely hailed as a huge success - and without it I am sure the game would not have been as popular as it has become.
As for not seeing anyone in the sewers - I will assume that you talking about the (4 person) dungeon instance(s). (You can go into the sewers alone but why would you!) Whilst its certainly true that there is a lot of content as a result of the DLCs (a good thing yes?) which - inevitably - spreads out the population the biggest factor will be the guild "dailies". For better or for worse these make it very quick to queue for the instances featured in the daily list and slower for all others. Same sentiment applies even if you have a guild that does content - instances featured in the dailies are more popular. That said I would be very surprised if you didn't get a group - at the very least there are usually some new players wanting to do stuff.
If your biggest gripe is the cash boxes - just ignore them. If you have simply got bored - well "all games get boring". When that happens its time to move on. Return later maybe. A game becoming boring at some point. Doesn't make it a bad game though.
The key point is: whatever decision a developer makes they won't get it "right" for everyone.
I "like" it since I like cool effects etc. and don't go for twitch / macro play but as it is it is very "clean".