Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Starting Cities

135678

Comments

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Mendel said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    You can rest assured before the game officially launches there will be all sorts of videos posted on how to safely travel to anywhere in the game including between starter cities, something not available in 1998.

    So no good  reason not to let them start where they wish,  even if there isn't portals between cities.


    Yep - guides will start as soon as pre-alpha starts.
    That's why I asked about why some people appear to be upset at one type of immersion-breaking mechanisms (porting), but not other methods (spoiler sites).  Both accomplish the same thing (moving from A to B ) both with varying degree of immersion-breaking.  But the discussion has been roughly porting = bad, while meta-gaming = okay.  Perhaps there are unstated reasons why people think that fast travel is bad other than the breaking immersion argument.
    Maybe because one they can control, the other they can't...
    MadFrenchiedcutbi001


  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 725
    There's nothing stopping them from having a unique system for new starters so they can group together. Doesn't mean you can keep using it but some people just have to polarise everything to some kind of straw man extreme.

    Original Vanguard it could take half a day to hook up (you wouldn't survive a run below level 10 depending on where you started). If one of you was an orc and the other a hobbit, forget about the first 15 levels together. When rift way points were introduced this went down to a 20 minute run depending. Then came the island were everyone was together.

    KyleranMrMelGibson
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    svann said:
    I dont think players should get a free ride to another starting town or the ability to be born there.  Each race should start at their own town and help populate that area.  If you really want to join friends at another town then hoof it over there.  That should not be impossible, just difficult.  That extra effort is the penalty you pay for abandoning your own noobville.  That would also be an adventure.


    When Agnarr started I ran my shaman from Halas to Ak'anon at 5th level to meet up with my wife's magician.

    Made it through High Hold and hit Kithkor at night, ducked into Rivervale to bind so I would not loose my entire run if I died. Ran back out and finished my run through Kithkor while it was still night. My closest call the entire run was Commonlands: freaking bears.

    dcutbi001

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Well some of those dangers you people speak of was what i found to be bad design.I remember sneaking up on a fort in VG and one inch too far "still quite far away" and the entire fort came running at a ridiculous speed and killed me before i could run a few steps.It looked very fake and turned me off.The fact the system designer or mapper or whomever had a part of that should have thought ..hmm this looks retarded,i better fix it,so yeah there are a lot of bad game design people out there.

    I like danger in making long runs but not impossible or because badly designed/coded.It was very dangerous to run several zones in FFXi to try and get to the main city hub where better trade/items could be had but many did it with careful movement and better aggro systems.

    So there alone is two ideas i want to see done better.Aggro systems,i don't want on a leash aggro of 20 mobs,not even 2,i wan mobs to react like they really would and i want more than just proximity aggro.I also don't want to see mobs as a clusterfuck,there should be some open spaces,mobs wouldn't be living side by side on every square inch of the game world.If i ran out in the bush right this minute i would be lucky to see even one deer,maybe one fox in the entire day,i wouldn't be tripping over them.
    TwoTubes

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    Dullahan said:
    Mendel said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    You can rest assured before the game officially launches there will be all sorts of videos posted on how to safely travel to anywhere in the game including between starter cities, something not available in 1998.

    So no good  reason not to let them start where they wish,  even if there isn't portals between cities.


    Yep - guides will start as soon as pre-alpha starts.
    That's why I asked about why some people appear to be upset at one type of immersion-breaking mechanisms (porting), but not other methods (spoiler sites).  Both accomplish the same thing (moving from A to B ) both with varying degree of immersion-breaking.  But the discussion has been roughly porting = bad, while meta-gaming = okay.  Perhaps there are unstated reasons why people think that fast travel is bad other than the breaking immersion argument.
    Maybe because one they can control, the other they can't...
    Clearly some MMO players are obsessed with controlling the actions of their fellows,  hence the opposition to fast travel or open starter cities.

    Oh, that is what you meant, right? ;)
    DullahanMrMelGibson

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    rounner said:
    There's nothing stopping them from having a unique system for new starters so they can group together. Doesn't mean you can keep using it but some people just have to polarise everything to some kind of straw man extreme.

    Original Vanguard it could take half a day to hook up (you wouldn't survive a run below level 10 depending on where you started). If one of you was an orc and the other a hobbit, forget about the first 15 levels together. When rift way points were introduced this went down to a 20 minute run depending. Then came the island were everyone was together.

    These convenience changes were done for specific good reason but some felt came too late.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    Rhoklaw said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    Mendel said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    You can rest assured before the game officially launches there will be all sorts of videos posted on how to safely travel to anywhere in the game including between starter cities, something not available in 1998.

    So no good  reason not to let them start where they wish,  even if there isn't portals between cities.


    Yep - guides will start as soon as pre-alpha starts.
    That's why I asked about why some people appear to be upset at one type of immersion-breaking mechanisms (porting), but not other methods (spoiler sites).  Both accomplish the same thing (moving from A to B ) both with varying degree of immersion-breaking.  But the discussion has been roughly porting = bad, while meta-gaming = okay.  Perhaps there are unstated reasons why people think that fast travel is bad other than the breaking immersion argument.
    Maybe because one they can control, the other they can't...
    Clearly some MMO players are obsessed with controlling the actions of their fellows,  hence the opposition to fast travel or open starter cities.

    Oh, that is what you meant, right? ;)
    If it makes sense to do so, yes, which depends on lore. For instance, most of us know Tolkien lore and would find it pretty odd for an Orc player to spawn in the Shire so he can level up with his friend the Hobbit. A lot of it has to do with factions, not just race or class. Imagine a Erudin Necromancer spawning in Qeynos at level 1? Yeah, good luck with that, lol. You'll be in a death loop forever.

    EDIT: To expand on that, I think EQ's language and faction system increased the entertainment value. Heck, even WoW has language barriers between it's two factions. Not to mention, not every race in WoW can play every class and you didn't get to choose your starting city there either.
    If you are going to worry about factional lore such as Orcs and Hobbits or your Erudin Necro example in EQ1, then you have to go full monty with it.

    Players should be prohibited from grouping with the opposing factions players unless they square things with the NPCs first.


    [Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    Mendel said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    You can rest assured before the game officially launches there will be all sorts of videos posted on how to safely travel to anywhere in the game including between starter cities, something not available in 1998.

    So no good  reason not to let them start where they wish,  even if there isn't portals between cities.


    Yep - guides will start as soon as pre-alpha starts.
    That's why I asked about why some people appear to be upset at one type of immersion-breaking mechanisms (porting), but not other methods (spoiler sites).  Both accomplish the same thing (moving from A to B ) both with varying degree of immersion-breaking.  But the discussion has been roughly porting = bad, while meta-gaming = okay.  Perhaps there are unstated reasons why people think that fast travel is bad other than the breaking immersion argument.
    Maybe because one they can control, the other they can't...
    Clearly some MMO players are obsessed with controlling the actions of their fellows,  hence the opposition to fast travel or open starter cities.

    Oh, that is what you meant, right? ;)
    Eh I agree that there should be some kind of options regarding where a player starts their adventure to help those who want to start a game together, as well as some kind of travel system that gets a player in the vicinity of the area they wish to explore (akin to WoW's flight path system or GW2's way point system), but I don't think you can really equate 3rd party websites sharing guides to in-game systems in reference to "controlling" player behavior.

    Developers build systems around controlling player behavior in almost every game ever created, either through incentivizing a certain behavior or discouraging other behaviors.

    The attempts to equate 3rd party information sharing and in-game travel systems is nit-picky.

    image
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited October 2017
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:

    Maybe because one they can control, the other they can't...
    Clearly some MMO players are obsessed with controlling the actions of their fellows,  hence the opposition to fast travel or open starter cities.

    Oh, that is what you meant, right? ;)
    That's cute, but no I was referring to developers being able to control the level of challenge. They may not be able to keep players from researching out of game to find the easiest path, but that doesn't mean they just throw in the towel for the sake of accessibility.

    Sometimes I think you and DMKano are bipolar. One minute you talk of challenge and you're love of games that had it, but the next you're opposing the very things that created that environment.
    svannMrMelGibson


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    It seems axiomatic to me that, in a game where the content is intended to be 80% or more for groups, sending a brand new player cross-continent(s) at the outset to solo search for his friends runs contrary to that intention. I read on here all the time how much damage solo play has done to the genre as a whole, and how unwelcome it is for this game, yet in defense of player friends initially being separated by long distances I am reading "I remember when I (solo) did this and when I (solo) did that, and how great it was? 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    Amathe said:
    It seems axiomatic to me that, in a game where the content is intended to be 80% or more for groups, sending a brand new player cross-continent(s) at the outset to solo search for his friends runs contrary to that intention. I read on here all the time how much damage solo play has done to the genre as a whole, and how unwelcome it is for this game, yet in defense of player friends initially being separated by long distances I am reading "I remember when I (solo) did this and when I (solo) did that, and how great it was? 
    No it doesn't.

    And that person's friends can run to meet him/her as well.


    Dullahandcutbi001
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Not only should it be up to the player to find a way to adapt to the world (rather than the world be adapted to the player), but it's good that the game encourage players to interact with people they do not know. That was sort of a staple of early mmorpgs, and something developers have provided too many ways to circumvent.

    When you no longer need random players they do not matter and can be dispensed with. That only leads to a less friendly environment and one where reputation matters little.


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Sovrath said:

    And that person's friends can run to meet him/her as well.


    Solo. Got it. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 328
    Dangerous travel is one of the hardships that makes the genre good imho.  Remove it, or any number of other hardships, and you end up with an inferior game.

    I know many of us can use PoP as an example.  It is widely considered the steep decline of EQ for a number of reasons.  PoK books being a major reason.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    And that person's friends can run to meet him/her as well.


    Solo. Got it. 
    It's weird to say that people have to be with people/around people every single moment of the game experience. Especially if this is supposed to be "a world".

    Heck, I live in a city and I can walk down certain streets at certain times of the day and not see people.


    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,769
    Sovrath said:
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    And that person's friends can run to meet him/her as well.


    Solo. Got it. 
    It's weird to say that people have to be with people/around people every single moment of the game experience. Especially if this is supposed to be "a world".

    Heck, I live in a city and I can walk down certain streets at certain times of the day and not see people.



    And some people go to the bathroom in groups!  haha.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    waynejr2 said:
    Sovrath said:
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    And that person's friends can run to meet him/her as well.


    Solo. Got it. 
    It's weird to say that people have to be with people/around people every single moment of the game experience. Especially if this is supposed to be "a world".

    Heck, I live in a city and I can walk down certain streets at certain times of the day and not see people.



    And some people go to the bathroom in groups!  haha.
    Ok, you win this round ...
    KyleranMrMelGibson
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Rhoklaw said:

     Has the world devolved into such an anti-social society that it's now taboo to group with random strangers?
    No, but the world has devolved into misquoting others early and often.

    My simple question about whether and how to accommodate friends who want to start the game together has been misquoted as essentially advocating for:

    1. Instant ports, everywhere, all the time;

    2. No challenging travel, anywhere, ever;

    3. Never group with anyone you don't already know;

    4. No travel waiting time;

    5. Wanting a game like WoW;

    6. EZ mode play;

    7. Dogs and cats, sleeping together; and

    8. The coming of the end of days.

    Oh and I left out a call for communal restrooms.

    But that is so typical of this forum. Misquote someone, accuse them of wanting a WoW clone, then bang on about how uber you are and how uber things were back in the day. 

    if I had posted "Players should be able to drink water," there are posters who would scream "What? You mean just GET water? You should have to earn that water. There should be a quest - no, an epic quest, for your first drink of water. No water until at least level 15. Meanwhile drink mud out of a bootprint. Players today just want water to be easy. Blah, blah, give me a freakin break blah.
    KyleranMrMelGibson

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited October 2017
    Amathe said:
    Rhoklaw said:

     Has the world devolved into such an anti-social society that it's now taboo to group with random strangers?
    No, but the world has devolved into misquoting others early and often.

    My simple question about whether and how to accommodate friends who want to start the game together has been misquoted as essentially advocating for:

    1. Instant ports, everywhere, all the time;

    2. No challenging travel, anywhere, ever;

    3. Never group with anyone you don't already know;

    4. No travel waiting time;

    5. Wanting a game like WoW;

    6. EZ mode play;

    7. Dogs and cats, sleeping together; and

    8. The coming of the end of days.

    Oh and I left out a call for communal restrooms.

    But that is so typical of this forum. Misquote someone, accuse them of wanting a WoW clone, then bang on about how uber you are and how uber things were back in the day. 

    if I had posted "Players should be able to drink water," there are posters who would scream "What? You mean just GET water? You should have to earn that water. There should be a quest - no, an epic quest, for your first drink of water. No water until at least level 15. Meanwhile drink mud out of a bootprint. Players today just want water to be easy. Blah, blah, give me a freakin break blah.
    Your issue is not nearly as benign as you portray it. It's that many of us see this issue as a feature, not a defect, and changing something like travel is a serious threat to gameplay.

    Even if it's a one time thing, those types of changes are a slippery slope and a departure from the design ethos necessary for creating a virtual world rather than just another online video game.
    Post edited by Dullahan on
    TwoTubes


  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,769
    Steve said:
    Rhoklaw said:

     Has the world devolved into such an anti-social society that it's now taboo to group with random strangers?
    No, but the world has devolved into misquoting others early and often.

    My simple question about whether and how to accommodate friends who want to start the game together has been misquoted as essentially advocating for:

    1. Instant ports, everywhere, all the time;

    2. No challenging travel, anywhere, ever;

    3. Never group with anyone you don't already know;

    4. No travel waiting time;

    5. Wanting a game like WoW;

    6. EZ mode play;

    7. Dogs and cats, sleeping together; and

    8. The coming of the end of days.

    Oh and I left out a call for communal restrooms.

    But that is so typical of this forum. Misquote someone, accuse them of wanting a WoW clone, then bang on about how uber you are and how uber things were back in the day. 

    if I had posted "Players should be able to drink water," there are posters who would scream "What? You mean just GET water? You should have to earn that water. There should be a quest - no, an epic quest, for your first drink of water. No water until at least level 15. Meanwhile drink mud out of a bootprint. Players today just want water to be easy. Blah, blah, give me a freakin break blah.

    True!
    TwoTubesMrMelGibson
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    edited October 2017
    I think fast travel breaks immersion in EQ and pantheon for a variety of reasons. Even if you somehow know every mob's spawn point, spawn timer, aggro ranges (this varies greatly), night and day cycle (more powerful creatures at night many of which see through invis and varying aggro ranges), patrol routes (these aren't simply 2 point single line segements; rather, they spider and fork), etc. If you somehow manage all of this (which is ridiculously difficult especially in later level zones with copious amounts of mobs) there are still instances in each zone where you will get more than 1 mob crossing your path no matter what, some seeing invis. There are also zones where your vision is limited, and depending on what race you choose your vision could be even worse at night or in fog, poor faction with the zone NPCs could increase aggro range etc (this just adds more detail/immersion to races, areas, similar to cultural/anatomical differences we see in various races in the real world which give it character/diversity and reinforces the theme of respecting/fearing your environments). Your elven friends in group can lead the way in the dark with good vision, your halfling friend can fit through small spaces and usually have a sneak mechanism. I could go on, but all the little traits affect travel, immersion, and depth/player skill.

    If you're a character without invis or a port (teleporting in EQ still only gets you semi-close to your zone or destination, often times you'll still have to trek at least another 5-10 minutes), you're going to have to develop a lot more skill in paying attention to mobs, zones, and how to find your group if someone left and you have to go alone to the dungeon. Travel never becomes trivial until you're way higher level than the zone, and basically it's just an added layer/depth of gameplay, requiring more player knowledge/skill (just wait until you see how many people die or can't find their way to you in a huge zone, player skill can be easily revealed before the dungeon crawling even begins).

    Travel also gives zones a notorious reputation or "fear factor" that everyone is afraid to tread there alone etc (again little things like this really help bring the world to life and give it character, forcing you to respect your environment at all times, which ends up creating a rush of adrenaline everywhere you travel, sometimes being forced to gamble and sprint to a zoneline, with a full train in tow). It's inaccurate to talk in extremes (everyone, no one, etc), but for those on the fence about the time, skill, or other details involved with travel, I really think you will eventually come to find it a rewarding/more immersive experience. The added difficulty, danger, and thrill just makes it that much more rewarding to conquer in the end.
  • DaranarDaranar Member UncommonPosts: 392
    svann said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    The only people who are against immersive forms of travel are the so called "I don't have time to sit around for 5 minutes on a boat, because my time is precious" crowd.
    Whenever you start out "The only people who...." you are almost certainly wrong and in this case you certainly are. 

    Many people in many threads have brought up the point that when you have a group and one has to leave the group generally does not have patience to wait 20 minutes for a replacement to find his way.  Its not always about my time, its often about the group's time.  Im not sure how you could not get that unless you are one of those people that just solo and never group?
    This is kinda proving Rhoklaw's point.   The mature crowd tries when possible to say, "Hey i'll need to be logging for dinner in 15min, you guys wanna start looking for a replacement?"  And that gives the replacement time to be found, and travel to where he needs to be, whether zone in for CotH like spells or my favorite, to be picked up by a group's bard playing invis to get them into camp before a group member leaves.  Strategy extends beyond the fight for some people.  

    I think what Rhoklaw said in his original point was spot on about the communities.  These newer handholder games don't even have to address this stuff anymore because camps are gone and so too are gone the days of spending hours with a group, where it makes sense to travel distances because you may be there for hours cycling through a few group members.  I'm very excited to have a game like Pantheon stick to the old ways because there is a crowd for it.  And some of these newer MMO guys might complain but that's why they won't flock to Pantheon because it's not a game for them and that's OK.
    Dullahan[Deleted User]Gyva02

    If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!


  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    And that person's friends can run to meet him/her as well.


    Solo. Got it. 
    No, if you want to join your friends  then it is possible for your friends  to come find you as a group, not solo.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    svann said:
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    And that person's friends can run to meet him/her as well.


    Solo. Got it. 
    No, if you want to join your friends  then it is possible for your friends  to come find you as a group, not solo.
    Oh? Are these friends all in the same place?  How far do they have to travel SOLO at level 1 before they can become a group? Cross-continent? Cross-world?

    I realize almost no one read my OP and folks are still just assuming erroneously that this is all a pitch for fast travel, but of course there is no question that friends can eventually hook up in game by traveling to meet one another. That is obvious and not in need of discussion. We have all played these games before and know that. 

    The issue is what if anything can be done to enable friends to START OUT playing together without having to limit themselves to just one or two races/classes to make that possible (the alternative being trying to cross the whole damn world at level 1). 

    Now watch as someone else posts "I think fast travel is a bad thing because ...." and reinforce my statement that no one reads what I write lmao. 
    ZuljanMendelKyleran

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    Amathe said:
    svann said:
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    And that person's friends can run to meet him/her as well.


    Solo. Got it. 
    No, if you want to join your friends  then it is possible for your friends  to come find you as a group, not solo.
    Oh? Are these friends all in the same place?  How far do they have to travel SOLO at level 1 before they can become a group? Cross-continent? Cross-world?

    I realize almost no one read my OP and folks are still just assuming erroneously that this is all a pitch for fast travel, but of course there is no question that friends can eventually hook up in game by traveling to meet one another. That is obvious and not in need of discussion. We have all played these games before and know that. 

    The issue is what if anything can be done to enable friends to START OUT playing together without having to limit themselves to just one or two races/classes to make that possible (the alternative being trying to cross the whole damn world at level 1). 

    Now watch as someone else posts "I think fast travel is a bad thing because ...." and reinforce my statement that no one reads what I write lmao. 
    haha, speaking only for myself, I was responding to a few people in here talking about fast travel pros and cons. Wish we had more insight to help answer your original question. What we do know is the world map. You can generally see which races will start close together, and obviously once the game has been out a few months, if you are a porting class or just have money, you can give your newbie friends some cash to get to you or vice versa (i forgot they have the level down mechanism to play with friends as well). 

    In the end I would expect a system that is somewhere in the upper middle threshold for difficulty in starting with friends. We would also have to take faction into account, for evil races like Skar are going to be Kill on sight to many towns guards. Still impossible to say for sure the extent of any of this though.
Sign In or Register to comment.