Quantcast

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

So I was playing ESO - captured this screenshot.

1235

Comments

  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 433
    edited October 2017


    Except in most games it's a 10-15% increase, not a 200fucking% increase in performance.

    50k+ DPS vs 20 at best with a sub-optimal build.  Sorry but that's not "min-max" that's stupid vs performing well.

    There is an OUTRAGOEUS disparity between meta and non-meta builds in ESO, you cannot deny that unless you just have blinders on.
    Eh... not as unusual as you might think. I remember such imbalance issues coming up even going back to Vanilla WoW days.

    My answer then, and my answer now is the same: So what?

    That stuff only matters to people whom, like yourself (presumably), seem to obsess and build your entire game experience around such things.

    I, and others like me, don't care about such things.

    I play to find builds that fit the playstyle I personally enjoy playing, not to measure up to someone else's ideal of "how I should be playing".

    As long as I'm able to complete content, perform my role in a group adequately, and enjoy myelf, life is good. If I hit a wall where my current build is no longer sufficient, then I'll tend to it and make the improvements necessary to continue playing as I enjoy.

    In my nearly 15 years of MMO gaming, across all the MMOs I've played, I've *never* cared about what was "most optimal". Only what's "most fun for me", while being effective enough to complete the content. Sometimes the two overlapped. Sometimes they didn't. Same difference either way.

    I know that's difficult for many min-maxers to understand. Again, I reference my friend from FFXI who nagged me and sent me links to "optimal guides" for years when we played it, because he could not understand how I was enjoying the game if I (in his words) "wasn't playing it right".

    I got hassled constantly for playing Dragoon in FFXI, because it was widely considered a "weak job". Didn't care. I enjoyed it, so I played it. I got hassled incessantly when Ninja was considered the "must have job" for seemingly everything, but refused to play it myself. Why? Because Ninja wasn't fun to me, and I didn't want to spend my gaming time playing something I didn't enjoy. Despite all that, I always got into groups, completed content, and enjoyed myself, by my own terms.

    So, I don't expect you (or other min-maxers) to understand that difference in mindset... but I do wish you people would at least come to terms with it, and stop trying to bash others over the head with it. And yes, your initial response to me is an example of that.
    Torval
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,685
    OhhPaigey said:


    Especially that stupid boss that chains a player down and makes you kill an add, it seemed like a pretty basic concept after our second try, but a lot of people couldn't grasp the concept.

    Yeah that mechanic in Fungal Grotto II is something a lot of brand new players struggle with and it's especially frustrating when the gods of the PUG put you there with players who are hard of listening.

    The vast majority of dungeons in ESO that have those mechanics that seem tricky at first glance are actually really easy once you get the hang of them. That very same dungeon has another boss further on, The Sheppard, that has 3 adds with her. If you kill the adds she gets a humongous buff that makes the fight last literally 10 times longer. It's really easy since all you need to do is drag them away from her and then just burn her down. But I've been in many groups where no matter what words you use to explain the mechanic some brainless DPS will just kill them.

    But hey, PUGs... you get what you get.
    Torval
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    edited October 2017


    Except in most games it's a 10-15% increase, not a 200fucking% increase in performance.

    50k+ DPS vs 20 at best with a sub-optimal build.  Sorry but that's not "min-max" that's stupid vs performing well.

    There is an OUTRAGOEUS disparity between meta and non-meta builds in ESO, you cannot deny that unless you just have blinders on.
    Eh... not as unusual as you might think. I remember such imbalance issues coming up even going back to Vanilla WoW days.

    My answer then, and my answer now is the same: So what?

    That stuff only matters to people whom, like yourself (presumably), seem to obsess and build your entire game experience around such things.

    I, and others like me, don't care about such things.

    I play to find builds that fit the playstyle I personally enjoy playing, not to measure up to someone else's ideal of "how I should be playing".

    As long as I'm able to complete content, perform my role in a group adequately, and enjoy myelf, life is good. If I hit a wall where my current build is no longer sufficient, then I'll tend to it and make the improvements necessary to continue playing as I enjoy.

    In my nearly 15 years of MMO gaming, across all the MMOs I've played, I've *never* cared about what was "most optimal". Only what's "most fun for me", while being effective enough to complete the content. Sometimes the two overlapped. Sometimes they didn't. Same difference either way.

    I know that's difficult for many min-maxers to understand. Again, I reference my friend from FFXI who nagged me and sent me links to "optimal guides" for years when we played it, because he could not understand how I was enjoying the game if I (in his words) "wasn't playing it right".

    I got hassled constantly for playing Dragoon in FFXI, because it was widely considered a "weak job". Didn't care. I enjoyed it, so I played it. I got hassled incessantly when Ninja was considered the "must have job" for seemingly everything, but refused to play it myself. Why? Because Ninja wasn't fun to me, and I didn't want to spend my gaming time playing something I didn't enjoy. Despite all that, I always got into groups, completed content, and enjoyed myself, by my own terms.

    So, I don't expect you (or other min-maxers) to understand that difference in mindset... but I do wish you people would at least come to terms with it, and stop trying to bash others over the head with it. And yes, your initial response to me is an example of that.
    That's a lot of words to say you can't raid or do vet content unless you have a meta build......

    Like seriously it is impossible to clear DPS checks with anything other than top-tier setups that are homogenized to death.

    The excuse of "well you can do most content" is a weak cop-out.  In most games you have a meta team comp, but even those simply make it easier, not impossible to clear raids/high-end content.  Zenimax has decided to design AROUND that meta as the standard, and because the disparity is massive in ESO that means there is no options for endgame content.



    The fact that you literally cannot clear content after a certain point without conforming to the meta is a huge black mark.  You can downplay it all you want but it's a design failure.

    Edit: To use your example, in FFXI DRGs could still participate and contribute in dynamis/limbus/sky/sea etc.  In fact they were PREFERRED in some instances.

    In ESO every single Stamina DPS is running DW/Bow.  If you're not?  You'll be kicked from the group.  It's THAT serious of a disparity.  

    Meta will be meta, but in ESO its a much bigger problem than in other games.



    unfilteredJW
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,685


    Except in most games it's a 10-15% increase, not a 200fucking% increase in performance.

    50k+ DPS vs 20 at best with a sub-optimal build.  Sorry but that's not "min-max" that's stupid vs performing well.

    There is an OUTRAGOEUS disparity between meta and non-meta builds in ESO, you cannot deny that unless you just have blinders on.
    Eh... not as unusual as you might think. I remember such imbalance issues coming up even going back to Vanilla WoW days.

    My answer then, and my answer now is the same: So what?

    That stuff only matters to people whom, like yourself (presumably), seem to obsess and build your entire game experience around such things.

    I, and others like me, don't care about such things.

    I play to find builds that fit the playstyle I personally enjoy playing, not to measure up to someone else's ideal of "how I should be playing".

    As long as I'm able to complete content, perform my role in a group adequately, and enjoy myelf, life is good. If I hit a wall where my current build is no longer sufficient, then I'll tend to it and make the improvements necessary to continue playing as I enjoy.

    In my nearly 15 years of MMO gaming, across all the MMOs I've played, I've *never* cared about what was "most optimal". Only what's "most fun for me", while being effective enough to complete the content. Sometimes the two overlapped. Sometimes they didn't. Same difference either way.

    I know that's difficult for many min-maxers to understand. Again, I reference my friend from FFXI who nagged me and sent me links to "optimal guides" for years when we played it, because he could not understand how I was enjoying the game if I (in his words) "wasn't playing it right".

    I got hassled constantly for playing Dragoon in FFXI, because it was widely considered a "weak job". Didn't care. I enjoyed it, so I played it. I got hassled incessantly when Ninja was considered the "must have job" for seemingly everything, but refused to play it myself. Why? Because Ninja wasn't fun to me, and I didn't want to spend my gaming time playing something I didn't enjoy. Despite all that, I always got into groups, completed content, and enjoyed myself, by my own terms.

    So, I don't expect you (or other min-maxers) to understand that difference in mindset... but I do wish you people would at least come to terms with it, and stop trying to bash others over the head with it. And yes, your initial response to me is an example of that.
    That's a lot of words to say you can't raid or do vet content unless you have a meta build......

    Like seriously it is impossible to clear DPS checks with anything other than top-tier setups that are homogenized to death.

    The excuse of "well you can do most content" is a weak cop-out.  In most games you have a meta team comp, but even those simply make it easier, not impossible to clear raids/high-end content.  Zenimax has decided to design AROUND that meta as the standard, and because the disparity is massive in ESO that means there is no options for endgame content.

    The fact that you literally cannot clear content after a certain point without conforming to the meta is a huge black mark.  You can downplay it all you want but it's a design failure.



    Dude... the metas are vet trials builds. You.... do ... not ... need... them for vet dungeons unless you want to cheese the mechanics in a speed run.
    Torvalgervaise1YashaX
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    Iselin said:


    Except in most games it's a 10-15% increase, not a 200fucking% increase in performance.

    50k+ DPS vs 20 at best with a sub-optimal build.  Sorry but that's not "min-max" that's stupid vs performing well.

    There is an OUTRAGOEUS disparity between meta and non-meta builds in ESO, you cannot deny that unless you just have blinders on.
    Eh... not as unusual as you might think. I remember such imbalance issues coming up even going back to Vanilla WoW days.

    My answer then, and my answer now is the same: So what?

    That stuff only matters to people whom, like yourself (presumably), seem to obsess and build your entire game experience around such things.

    I, and others like me, don't care about such things.

    I play to find builds that fit the playstyle I personally enjoy playing, not to measure up to someone else's ideal of "how I should be playing".

    As long as I'm able to complete content, perform my role in a group adequately, and enjoy myelf, life is good. If I hit a wall where my current build is no longer sufficient, then I'll tend to it and make the improvements necessary to continue playing as I enjoy.

    In my nearly 15 years of MMO gaming, across all the MMOs I've played, I've *never* cared about what was "most optimal". Only what's "most fun for me", while being effective enough to complete the content. Sometimes the two overlapped. Sometimes they didn't. Same difference either way.

    I know that's difficult for many min-maxers to understand. Again, I reference my friend from FFXI who nagged me and sent me links to "optimal guides" for years when we played it, because he could not understand how I was enjoying the game if I (in his words) "wasn't playing it right".

    I got hassled constantly for playing Dragoon in FFXI, because it was widely considered a "weak job". Didn't care. I enjoyed it, so I played it. I got hassled incessantly when Ninja was considered the "must have job" for seemingly everything, but refused to play it myself. Why? Because Ninja wasn't fun to me, and I didn't want to spend my gaming time playing something I didn't enjoy. Despite all that, I always got into groups, completed content, and enjoyed myself, by my own terms.

    So, I don't expect you (or other min-maxers) to understand that difference in mindset... but I do wish you people would at least come to terms with it, and stop trying to bash others over the head with it. And yes, your initial response to me is an example of that.
    That's a lot of words to say you can't raid or do vet content unless you have a meta build......

    Like seriously it is impossible to clear DPS checks with anything other than top-tier setups that are homogenized to death.

    The excuse of "well you can do most content" is a weak cop-out.  In most games you have a meta team comp, but even those simply make it easier, not impossible to clear raids/high-end content.  Zenimax has decided to design AROUND that meta as the standard, and because the disparity is massive in ESO that means there is no options for endgame content.

    The fact that you literally cannot clear content after a certain point without conforming to the meta is a huge black mark.  You can downplay it all you want but it's a design failure.



    Dude... the metas are vet trials builds. You.... do ... not ... need... them for vet dungeons unless you want to cheese the mechanics in a speed run.
    Right....so if everyone ran a 2H/DW build on stamina DPS you could still clear vet dungeons?  Wrong.

    IselinYashaX
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,685
    edited October 2017
    Iselin said:


    Except in most games it's a 10-15% increase, not a 200fucking% increase in performance.

    50k+ DPS vs 20 at best with a sub-optimal build.  Sorry but that's not "min-max" that's stupid vs performing well.

    There is an OUTRAGOEUS disparity between meta and non-meta builds in ESO, you cannot deny that unless you just have blinders on.
    Eh... not as unusual as you might think. I remember such imbalance issues coming up even going back to Vanilla WoW days.

    My answer then, and my answer now is the same: So what?

    That stuff only matters to people whom, like yourself (presumably), seem to obsess and build your entire game experience around such things.

    I, and others like me, don't care about such things.

    I play to find builds that fit the playstyle I personally enjoy playing, not to measure up to someone else's ideal of "how I should be playing".

    As long as I'm able to complete content, perform my role in a group adequately, and enjoy myelf, life is good. If I hit a wall where my current build is no longer sufficient, then I'll tend to it and make the improvements necessary to continue playing as I enjoy.

    In my nearly 15 years of MMO gaming, across all the MMOs I've played, I've *never* cared about what was "most optimal". Only what's "most fun for me", while being effective enough to complete the content. Sometimes the two overlapped. Sometimes they didn't. Same difference either way.

    I know that's difficult for many min-maxers to understand. Again, I reference my friend from FFXI who nagged me and sent me links to "optimal guides" for years when we played it, because he could not understand how I was enjoying the game if I (in his words) "wasn't playing it right".

    I got hassled constantly for playing Dragoon in FFXI, because it was widely considered a "weak job". Didn't care. I enjoyed it, so I played it. I got hassled incessantly when Ninja was considered the "must have job" for seemingly everything, but refused to play it myself. Why? Because Ninja wasn't fun to me, and I didn't want to spend my gaming time playing something I didn't enjoy. Despite all that, I always got into groups, completed content, and enjoyed myself, by my own terms.

    So, I don't expect you (or other min-maxers) to understand that difference in mindset... but I do wish you people would at least come to terms with it, and stop trying to bash others over the head with it. And yes, your initial response to me is an example of that.
    That's a lot of words to say you can't raid or do vet content unless you have a meta build......

    Like seriously it is impossible to clear DPS checks with anything other than top-tier setups that are homogenized to death.

    The excuse of "well you can do most content" is a weak cop-out.  In most games you have a meta team comp, but even those simply make it easier, not impossible to clear raids/high-end content.  Zenimax has decided to design AROUND that meta as the standard, and because the disparity is massive in ESO that means there is no options for endgame content.

    The fact that you literally cannot clear content after a certain point without conforming to the meta is a huge black mark.  You can downplay it all you want but it's a design failure.



    Dude... the metas are vet trials builds. You.... do ... not ... need... them for vet dungeons unless you want to cheese the mechanics in a speed run.
    Right....so if everyone ran a 2H/DW build on stamina DPS you could still clear vet dungeons?  Wrong.

    Yup. I could make that work... could you?

    (EDIT: and in case you were wondering... DW is already PVE meta, so bow... the only two abilities the meta uses are Endless Hail AOE and Poison Injection ranged execute DOT. So Brawler for the AOE + damage shield which would come in handy since you're going to be up close more and you'll already be using razor clatrops for ranged AOE. Add Reverse Slice for an execute with splash AOE and Wrecking Blow for ST spam with +20% damage empowerment instead of DW Rapid Strikes. ST DPS will be slightly lower but AOE will be stronger. All done.)

    Have you ever even looked at the gear for those meta builds? Where does it come from? Yeah, that's right it's gear that drops in trials. That should be your first clue that people gearing up in vet dungeons are not running full meta builds.

    People just want to run the 3 daily pledges for their keys and an RNG chance at the perfect shoulder piece, or they want to grind FG for the Viper daggers as quickly as they can... those runs can be elitist and exclusive.

    But can you do vet dungeons less efficiently with a lesser build? All day, every day.
    Post edited by Iselin on
    GdemamiimmodiumTorvalYashaX
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:


    Except in most games it's a 10-15% increase, not a 200fucking% increase in performance.

    50k+ DPS vs 20 at best with a sub-optimal build.  Sorry but that's not "min-max" that's stupid vs performing well.

    There is an OUTRAGOEUS disparity between meta and non-meta builds in ESO, you cannot deny that unless you just have blinders on.
    Eh... not as unusual as you might think. I remember such imbalance issues coming up even going back to Vanilla WoW days.

    My answer then, and my answer now is the same: So what?

    That stuff only matters to people whom, like yourself (presumably), seem to obsess and build your entire game experience around such things.

    I, and others like me, don't care about such things.

    I play to find builds that fit the playstyle I personally enjoy playing, not to measure up to someone else's ideal of "how I should be playing".

    As long as I'm able to complete content, perform my role in a group adequately, and enjoy myelf, life is good. If I hit a wall where my current build is no longer sufficient, then I'll tend to it and make the improvements necessary to continue playing as I enjoy.

    In my nearly 15 years of MMO gaming, across all the MMOs I've played, I've *never* cared about what was "most optimal". Only what's "most fun for me", while being effective enough to complete the content. Sometimes the two overlapped. Sometimes they didn't. Same difference either way.

    I know that's difficult for many min-maxers to understand. Again, I reference my friend from FFXI who nagged me and sent me links to "optimal guides" for years when we played it, because he could not understand how I was enjoying the game if I (in his words) "wasn't playing it right".

    I got hassled constantly for playing Dragoon in FFXI, because it was widely considered a "weak job". Didn't care. I enjoyed it, so I played it. I got hassled incessantly when Ninja was considered the "must have job" for seemingly everything, but refused to play it myself. Why? Because Ninja wasn't fun to me, and I didn't want to spend my gaming time playing something I didn't enjoy. Despite all that, I always got into groups, completed content, and enjoyed myself, by my own terms.

    So, I don't expect you (or other min-maxers) to understand that difference in mindset... but I do wish you people would at least come to terms with it, and stop trying to bash others over the head with it. And yes, your initial response to me is an example of that.
    That's a lot of words to say you can't raid or do vet content unless you have a meta build......

    Like seriously it is impossible to clear DPS checks with anything other than top-tier setups that are homogenized to death.

    The excuse of "well you can do most content" is a weak cop-out.  In most games you have a meta team comp, but even those simply make it easier, not impossible to clear raids/high-end content.  Zenimax has decided to design AROUND that meta as the standard, and because the disparity is massive in ESO that means there is no options for endgame content.

    The fact that you literally cannot clear content after a certain point without conforming to the meta is a huge black mark.  You can downplay it all you want but it's a design failure.



    Dude... the metas are vet trials builds. You.... do ... not ... need... them for vet dungeons unless you want to cheese the mechanics in a speed run.
    Right....so if everyone ran a 2H/DW build on stamina DPS you could still clear vet dungeons?  Wrong.

    Yup. I could make that work... could you?
    At this point you're just lying to people.  Let them find out for themselves I suppose.  Just go look at the ESO forums and you'll see at least one or two threads a day about it from new players that find out they can't actually run what they want, don't have to take my word for it.
    unfilteredJWYashaXQuarterStack
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,685
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:


    Except in most games it's a 10-15% increase, not a 200fucking% increase in performance.

    50k+ DPS vs 20 at best with a sub-optimal build.  Sorry but that's not "min-max" that's stupid vs performing well.

    There is an OUTRAGOEUS disparity between meta and non-meta builds in ESO, you cannot deny that unless you just have blinders on.
    Eh... not as unusual as you might think. I remember such imbalance issues coming up even going back to Vanilla WoW days.

    My answer then, and my answer now is the same: So what?

    That stuff only matters to people whom, like yourself (presumably), seem to obsess and build your entire game experience around such things.

    I, and others like me, don't care about such things.

    I play to find builds that fit the playstyle I personally enjoy playing, not to measure up to someone else's ideal of "how I should be playing".

    As long as I'm able to complete content, perform my role in a group adequately, and enjoy myelf, life is good. If I hit a wall where my current build is no longer sufficient, then I'll tend to it and make the improvements necessary to continue playing as I enjoy.

    In my nearly 15 years of MMO gaming, across all the MMOs I've played, I've *never* cared about what was "most optimal". Only what's "most fun for me", while being effective enough to complete the content. Sometimes the two overlapped. Sometimes they didn't. Same difference either way.

    I know that's difficult for many min-maxers to understand. Again, I reference my friend from FFXI who nagged me and sent me links to "optimal guides" for years when we played it, because he could not understand how I was enjoying the game if I (in his words) "wasn't playing it right".

    I got hassled constantly for playing Dragoon in FFXI, because it was widely considered a "weak job". Didn't care. I enjoyed it, so I played it. I got hassled incessantly when Ninja was considered the "must have job" for seemingly everything, but refused to play it myself. Why? Because Ninja wasn't fun to me, and I didn't want to spend my gaming time playing something I didn't enjoy. Despite all that, I always got into groups, completed content, and enjoyed myself, by my own terms.

    So, I don't expect you (or other min-maxers) to understand that difference in mindset... but I do wish you people would at least come to terms with it, and stop trying to bash others over the head with it. And yes, your initial response to me is an example of that.
    That's a lot of words to say you can't raid or do vet content unless you have a meta build......

    Like seriously it is impossible to clear DPS checks with anything other than top-tier setups that are homogenized to death.

    The excuse of "well you can do most content" is a weak cop-out.  In most games you have a meta team comp, but even those simply make it easier, not impossible to clear raids/high-end content.  Zenimax has decided to design AROUND that meta as the standard, and because the disparity is massive in ESO that means there is no options for endgame content.

    The fact that you literally cannot clear content after a certain point without conforming to the meta is a huge black mark.  You can downplay it all you want but it's a design failure.



    Dude... the metas are vet trials builds. You.... do ... not ... need... them for vet dungeons unless you want to cheese the mechanics in a speed run.
    Right....so if everyone ran a 2H/DW build on stamina DPS you could still clear vet dungeons?  Wrong.

    Yup. I could make that work... could you?
    At this point you're just lying to people.  Let them find out for themselves I suppose.  Just go look at the ESO forums and you'll see at least one or two threads a day about it from new players that find out they can't actually run what they want, don't have to take my word for it.
    People whine about all kinds of shit on the ESO forums all the time. I know because I'm there daily.

    What I see is a lot of people whining about the wrong thing and a lot of crappy advice. There are a lot of noobs running around with basic L2P issues who get meta build advice as if that were the solution to their inability to resource manage or thinking that using light attacks from their bow should get them through all content.

    The meta build advice they get from the jaded 660 CP folks is next to useless for their more basic problems. Metas are vet trial builds and yet you have tons of new players thinking that's the solution to all their level 20 normal dungeon problems.
    GdemamiSlyLoKTealapostlarvalgervaise1
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • TaishiFoxTaishiFox Member RarePosts: 980
    TaishiFox said:
    Please stop bumping this thread, its months old ._.
    You do realize what you just did there, right?

    You do also realize what you could have done instead, right?

    I hope the answer to both questions is 'yes'.


    You do realize the same could be said about you, right?

    TheScavenger

    imageimage
    image

  • drivendawndrivendawn Member RarePosts: 2,145
    TaishiFox said:
    TaishiFox said:
    Please stop bumping this thread, its months old ._.
    You do realize what you just did there, right?

    You do also realize what you could have done instead, right?

    I hope the answer to both questions is 'yes'.


    You do realize the same could be said about you, right?

    How? He doesn't care if the thread is months old or not and whether anyone posts on it.
    TorvalYashaX
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    OhhPaigey said:

    Especially that stupid boss that chains a player down and makes you kill an add, it seemed like a pretty basic concept after our second try, but a lot of people couldn't grasp the concept.

    Some of us are old and have a hard time learning new things, LOL
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:


    Except in most games it's a 10-15% increase, not a 200fucking% increase in performance.

    50k+ DPS vs 20 at best with a sub-optimal build.  Sorry but that's not "min-max" that's stupid vs performing well.

    There is an OUTRAGOEUS disparity between meta and non-meta builds in ESO, you cannot deny that unless you just have blinders on.
    Eh... not as unusual as you might think. I remember such imbalance issues coming up even going back to Vanilla WoW days.

    My answer then, and my answer now is the same: So what?

    That stuff only matters to people whom, like yourself (presumably), seem to obsess and build your entire game experience around such things.

    I, and others like me, don't care about such things.

    I play to find builds that fit the playstyle I personally enjoy playing, not to measure up to someone else's ideal of "how I should be playing".

    As long as I'm able to complete content, perform my role in a group adequately, and enjoy myelf, life is good. If I hit a wall where my current build is no longer sufficient, then I'll tend to it and make the improvements necessary to continue playing as I enjoy.

    In my nearly 15 years of MMO gaming, across all the MMOs I've played, I've *never* cared about what was "most optimal". Only what's "most fun for me", while being effective enough to complete the content. Sometimes the two overlapped. Sometimes they didn't. Same difference either way.

    I know that's difficult for many min-maxers to understand. Again, I reference my friend from FFXI who nagged me and sent me links to "optimal guides" for years when we played it, because he could not understand how I was enjoying the game if I (in his words) "wasn't playing it right".

    I got hassled constantly for playing Dragoon in FFXI, because it was widely considered a "weak job". Didn't care. I enjoyed it, so I played it. I got hassled incessantly when Ninja was considered the "must have job" for seemingly everything, but refused to play it myself. Why? Because Ninja wasn't fun to me, and I didn't want to spend my gaming time playing something I didn't enjoy. Despite all that, I always got into groups, completed content, and enjoyed myself, by my own terms.

    So, I don't expect you (or other min-maxers) to understand that difference in mindset... but I do wish you people would at least come to terms with it, and stop trying to bash others over the head with it. And yes, your initial response to me is an example of that.
    That's a lot of words to say you can't raid or do vet content unless you have a meta build......

    Like seriously it is impossible to clear DPS checks with anything other than top-tier setups that are homogenized to death.

    The excuse of "well you can do most content" is a weak cop-out.  In most games you have a meta team comp, but even those simply make it easier, not impossible to clear raids/high-end content.  Zenimax has decided to design AROUND that meta as the standard, and because the disparity is massive in ESO that means there is no options for endgame content.

    The fact that you literally cannot clear content after a certain point without conforming to the meta is a huge black mark.  You can downplay it all you want but it's a design failure.



    Dude... the metas are vet trials builds. You.... do ... not ... need... them for vet dungeons unless you want to cheese the mechanics in a speed run.
    Right....so if everyone ran a 2H/DW build on stamina DPS you could still clear vet dungeons?  Wrong.

    Yup. I could make that work... could you?
    At this point you're just lying to people.  Let them find out for themselves I suppose.  Just go look at the ESO forums and you'll see at least one or two threads a day about it from new players that find out they can't actually run what they want, don't have to take my word for it.
    People whine about all kinds of shit on the ESO forums all the time. I know because I'm there daily.

    What I see is a lot of people whining about the wrong thing and a lot of crappy advice. There are a lot of noobs running around with basic L2P issues who get meta build advice as if that were the solution to their inability to resource manage or thinking that using light attacks from their bow should get them through all content.

    The meta build advice they get from the jaded 660 CP folks is next to useless for their more basic problems. Metas are vet trial builds and yet you have tons of new players thinking that's the solution to all their level 20 normal dungeon problems.
    No @Kajidourden @Iselin is not lying. Same deal with the forum comments. It takes time to not only to "learn" but to level, develop skills, get gear. In that sense ESO is a long road.
    TorvalGdemamiYashaXQuarterStack
  • HarikenHariken Member EpicPosts: 2,524
    The game does have it all. But i just can't get past the limited hotbar because the game was made for console.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,745
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:


    Except in most games it's a 10-15% increase, not a 200fucking% increase in performance.

    50k+ DPS vs 20 at best with a sub-optimal build.  Sorry but that's not "min-max" that's stupid vs performing well.

    There is an OUTRAGOEUS disparity between meta and non-meta builds in ESO, you cannot deny that unless you just have blinders on.
    Eh... not as unusual as you might think. I remember such imbalance issues coming up even going back to Vanilla WoW days.

    My answer then, and my answer now is the same: So what?

    That stuff only matters to people whom, like yourself (presumably), seem to obsess and build your entire game experience around such things.

    I, and others like me, don't care about such things.

    I play to find builds that fit the playstyle I personally enjoy playing, not to measure up to someone else's ideal of "how I should be playing".

    As long as I'm able to complete content, perform my role in a group adequately, and enjoy myelf, life is good. If I hit a wall where my current build is no longer sufficient, then I'll tend to it and make the improvements necessary to continue playing as I enjoy.

    In my nearly 15 years of MMO gaming, across all the MMOs I've played, I've *never* cared about what was "most optimal". Only what's "most fun for me", while being effective enough to complete the content. Sometimes the two overlapped. Sometimes they didn't. Same difference either way.

    I know that's difficult for many min-maxers to understand. Again, I reference my friend from FFXI who nagged me and sent me links to "optimal guides" for years when we played it, because he could not understand how I was enjoying the game if I (in his words) "wasn't playing it right".

    I got hassled constantly for playing Dragoon in FFXI, because it was widely considered a "weak job". Didn't care. I enjoyed it, so I played it. I got hassled incessantly when Ninja was considered the "must have job" for seemingly everything, but refused to play it myself. Why? Because Ninja wasn't fun to me, and I didn't want to spend my gaming time playing something I didn't enjoy. Despite all that, I always got into groups, completed content, and enjoyed myself, by my own terms.

    So, I don't expect you (or other min-maxers) to understand that difference in mindset... but I do wish you people would at least come to terms with it, and stop trying to bash others over the head with it. And yes, your initial response to me is an example of that.
    That's a lot of words to say you can't raid or do vet content unless you have a meta build......

    Like seriously it is impossible to clear DPS checks with anything other than top-tier setups that are homogenized to death.

    The excuse of "well you can do most content" is a weak cop-out.  In most games you have a meta team comp, but even those simply make it easier, not impossible to clear raids/high-end content.  Zenimax has decided to design AROUND that meta as the standard, and because the disparity is massive in ESO that means there is no options for endgame content.

    The fact that you literally cannot clear content after a certain point without conforming to the meta is a huge black mark.  You can downplay it all you want but it's a design failure.



    Dude... the metas are vet trials builds. You.... do ... not ... need... them for vet dungeons unless you want to cheese the mechanics in a speed run.
    Right....so if everyone ran a 2H/DW build on stamina DPS you could still clear vet dungeons?  Wrong.

    Yup. I could make that work... could you?
    At this point you're just lying to people.  Let them find out for themselves I suppose.  Just go look at the ESO forums and you'll see at least one or two threads a day about it from new players that find out they can't actually run what they want, don't have to take my word for it.
    He is not lying: the most important aspect of the game in terms of "power" is gear and CP, after that I would be far more worried about ability than not running a metabuild. For example, 2H/dw would be fine in vet dungeons for dps, and I have often run non-meta tank builds and got through things fine.
    ....
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    YashaX said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:


    Except in most games it's a 10-15% increase, not a 200fucking% increase in performance.

    50k+ DPS vs 20 at best with a sub-optimal build.  Sorry but that's not "min-max" that's stupid vs performing well.

    There is an OUTRAGOEUS disparity between meta and non-meta builds in ESO, you cannot deny that unless you just have blinders on.
    Eh... not as unusual as you might think. I remember such imbalance issues coming up even going back to Vanilla WoW days.

    My answer then, and my answer now is the same: So what?

    That stuff only matters to people whom, like yourself (presumably), seem to obsess and build your entire game experience around such things.

    I, and others like me, don't care about such things.

    I play to find builds that fit the playstyle I personally enjoy playing, not to measure up to someone else's ideal of "how I should be playing".

    As long as I'm able to complete content, perform my role in a group adequately, and enjoy myelf, life is good. If I hit a wall where my current build is no longer sufficient, then I'll tend to it and make the improvements necessary to continue playing as I enjoy.

    In my nearly 15 years of MMO gaming, across all the MMOs I've played, I've *never* cared about what was "most optimal". Only what's "most fun for me", while being effective enough to complete the content. Sometimes the two overlapped. Sometimes they didn't. Same difference either way.

    I know that's difficult for many min-maxers to understand. Again, I reference my friend from FFXI who nagged me and sent me links to "optimal guides" for years when we played it, because he could not understand how I was enjoying the game if I (in his words) "wasn't playing it right".

    I got hassled constantly for playing Dragoon in FFXI, because it was widely considered a "weak job". Didn't care. I enjoyed it, so I played it. I got hassled incessantly when Ninja was considered the "must have job" for seemingly everything, but refused to play it myself. Why? Because Ninja wasn't fun to me, and I didn't want to spend my gaming time playing something I didn't enjoy. Despite all that, I always got into groups, completed content, and enjoyed myself, by my own terms.

    So, I don't expect you (or other min-maxers) to understand that difference in mindset... but I do wish you people would at least come to terms with it, and stop trying to bash others over the head with it. And yes, your initial response to me is an example of that.
    That's a lot of words to say you can't raid or do vet content unless you have a meta build......

    Like seriously it is impossible to clear DPS checks with anything other than top-tier setups that are homogenized to death.

    The excuse of "well you can do most content" is a weak cop-out.  In most games you have a meta team comp, but even those simply make it easier, not impossible to clear raids/high-end content.  Zenimax has decided to design AROUND that meta as the standard, and because the disparity is massive in ESO that means there is no options for endgame content.

    The fact that you literally cannot clear content after a certain point without conforming to the meta is a huge black mark.  You can downplay it all you want but it's a design failure.



    Dude... the metas are vet trials builds. You.... do ... not ... need... them for vet dungeons unless you want to cheese the mechanics in a speed run.
    Right....so if everyone ran a 2H/DW build on stamina DPS you could still clear vet dungeons?  Wrong.

    Yup. I could make that work... could you?
    At this point you're just lying to people.  Let them find out for themselves I suppose.  Just go look at the ESO forums and you'll see at least one or two threads a day about it from new players that find out they can't actually run what they want, don't have to take my word for it.
    He is not lying: the most important aspect of the game in terms of "power" is gear and CP, after that I would be far more worried about ability than not running a metabuild. For example, 2H/dw would be fine in vet dungeons for dps, and I have often run non-meta tank builds and got through things fine.
    So you can get carried by people who were twice as effective as you, is that supposed to be some sort of an achievement?

    Again, this is not a difference of 5-10%, in ESO you're talking DOUBLE the efficiency, usually more.  
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,685
    YashaX said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:


    Except in most games it's a 10-15% increase, not a 200fucking% increase in performance.

    50k+ DPS vs 20 at best with a sub-optimal build.  Sorry but that's not "min-max" that's stupid vs performing well.

    There is an OUTRAGOEUS disparity between meta and non-meta builds in ESO, you cannot deny that unless you just have blinders on.
    Eh... not as unusual as you might think. I remember such imbalance issues coming up even going back to Vanilla WoW days.

    My answer then, and my answer now is the same: So what?

    That stuff only matters to people whom, like yourself (presumably), seem to obsess and build your entire game experience around such things.

    I, and others like me, don't care about such things.

    I play to find builds that fit the playstyle I personally enjoy playing, not to measure up to someone else's ideal of "how I should be playing".

    As long as I'm able to complete content, perform my role in a group adequately, and enjoy myelf, life is good. If I hit a wall where my current build is no longer sufficient, then I'll tend to it and make the improvements necessary to continue playing as I enjoy.

    In my nearly 15 years of MMO gaming, across all the MMOs I've played, I've *never* cared about what was "most optimal". Only what's "most fun for me", while being effective enough to complete the content. Sometimes the two overlapped. Sometimes they didn't. Same difference either way.

    I know that's difficult for many min-maxers to understand. Again, I reference my friend from FFXI who nagged me and sent me links to "optimal guides" for years when we played it, because he could not understand how I was enjoying the game if I (in his words) "wasn't playing it right".

    I got hassled constantly for playing Dragoon in FFXI, because it was widely considered a "weak job". Didn't care. I enjoyed it, so I played it. I got hassled incessantly when Ninja was considered the "must have job" for seemingly everything, but refused to play it myself. Why? Because Ninja wasn't fun to me, and I didn't want to spend my gaming time playing something I didn't enjoy. Despite all that, I always got into groups, completed content, and enjoyed myself, by my own terms.

    So, I don't expect you (or other min-maxers) to understand that difference in mindset... but I do wish you people would at least come to terms with it, and stop trying to bash others over the head with it. And yes, your initial response to me is an example of that.
    That's a lot of words to say you can't raid or do vet content unless you have a meta build......

    Like seriously it is impossible to clear DPS checks with anything other than top-tier setups that are homogenized to death.

    The excuse of "well you can do most content" is a weak cop-out.  In most games you have a meta team comp, but even those simply make it easier, not impossible to clear raids/high-end content.  Zenimax has decided to design AROUND that meta as the standard, and because the disparity is massive in ESO that means there is no options for endgame content.

    The fact that you literally cannot clear content after a certain point without conforming to the meta is a huge black mark.  You can downplay it all you want but it's a design failure.



    Dude... the metas are vet trials builds. You.... do ... not ... need... them for vet dungeons unless you want to cheese the mechanics in a speed run.
    Right....so if everyone ran a 2H/DW build on stamina DPS you could still clear vet dungeons?  Wrong.

    Yup. I could make that work... could you?
    At this point you're just lying to people.  Let them find out for themselves I suppose.  Just go look at the ESO forums and you'll see at least one or two threads a day about it from new players that find out they can't actually run what they want, don't have to take my word for it.
    He is not lying: the most important aspect of the game in terms of "power" is gear and CP, after that I would be far more worried about ability than not running a metabuild. For example, 2H/dw would be fine in vet dungeons for dps, and I have often run non-meta tank builds and got through things fine.
    So you can get carried by people who were twice as effective as you, is that supposed to be some sort of an achievement?

    Again, this is not a difference of 5-10%, in ESO you're talking DOUBLE the efficiency, usually more.  
    By your reasoning no magicka warden should ever be allowed in a vet dungeon run since their max DPS parse on skeleton dummies is around 35K and magsorcs can do 70K. Poor them... autokick magwardens... you heard it here first! :)

    We get that you're impressed and obsessed with vet trial ultimate specs. Luckily, most people are not.
    Torval
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • DijonCyanideDijonCyanide Member UncommonPosts: 586
    edited October 2017
    I really enjoyed ESO till I hit the level-cap.  The graphics are good, the main storyline was enjoyable, & then began those damn specialization points.  Around 173 or something I just gave-up & now only play ESO about once a week for a couple of hours.  Just too much same ol' same ol' grind grind grind with little apparent progress for me.  Also, I never got over ESO's economic set-up with those guild markets.  I also didn't like the fact that I didn't know what a quest was going to reward till the end, but I only played for a few months & only 1 or 2 of those months was subscribed the other couple of months were playing free.

    All that being rambled LOL yes that is a nice screen-shot & ESO can have a very serene looking environment.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    I really enjoyed ESO till I hit the level-cap.  The graphics are good, the main storyline was enjoyable, & then began those damn specialization points.  Around 173 or something I just gave-up & now only play ESO about once a week for a couple of hours. <snip>
    At some point all games become a grind / boring etc. In this respect though ESO is no different.
     
    My standard suggestion is to make a new character - a different class perhaps - and to play through one of the DLCs e.g. Wrothgar. Alternatively a faction or zone you haven't played but the DLCs are decently done. 

    Hopefully the e.g. Wrothgar story - as you say the story content is strong - combined with playing a different class if you take that option will overcome the "boredom", carrying you to 50 and beyond! 

    How does this help? It works because once you get past level 50 your new character will earn cp points for all your characters.   


    YashaX
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    YashaX said:

    He is not lying: the most important aspect of the game in terms of "power" is gear and CP, after that I would be far more worried about ability than not running a metabuild. For example, 2H/dw would be fine in vet dungeons for dps, and I have often run non-meta tank builds and got through things fine.
    So you can get carried by people who were twice as effective as you, is that supposed to be some sort of an achievement?

    Again, this is not a difference of 5-10%, in ESO you're talking DOUBLE the efficiency, usually more.  
    Does it have to be an achievement as long as it is fun? It can be pretty hard carrying people as well in some dungeons even if they listen. Yes there are  achievements for speed, nobody dying etc. but most of the time people are doing them for a) fun b) exp c) keys d) specific items. And they have to do them to get the gear

    A solitary cp point adds little leading to people talking about characters not progressing because "everyone is the same level". As you clearly know however the tiny gains mount up.

    The road to great power however is long; very long. So most of the time you will be with people who are less powerful than they will eventually become. People who may not even have tried the trials or the "raids" let alone completed them. Knowing the mechanics though matters far more than sheer power; often not knowing them is fatal. 

    If you want a challenge then you can do the 4 person vet dungeons solo. Some you can't - those mechanics again - but some are possible. As I have said previously however doing them solo is not normal simply because of how long it takes to get gear, cp points etc.


  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,745
    YashaX said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:


    Except in most games it's a 10-15% increase, not a 200fucking% increase in performance.

    50k+ DPS vs 20 at best with a sub-optimal build.  Sorry but that's not "min-max" that's stupid vs performing well.

    There is an OUTRAGOEUS disparity between meta and non-meta builds in ESO, you cannot deny that unless you just have blinders on.
    Eh... not as unusual as you might think. I remember such imbalance issues coming up even going back to Vanilla WoW days.

    My answer then, and my answer now is the same: So what?

    That stuff only matters to people whom, like yourself (presumably), seem to obsess and build your entire game experience around such things.

    I, and others like me, don't care about such things.

    I play to find builds that fit the playstyle I personally enjoy playing, not to measure up to someone else's ideal of "how I should be playing".

    As long as I'm able to complete content, perform my role in a group adequately, and enjoy myelf, life is good. If I hit a wall where my current build is no longer sufficient, then I'll tend to it and make the improvements necessary to continue playing as I enjoy.

    In my nearly 15 years of MMO gaming, across all the MMOs I've played, I've *never* cared about what was "most optimal". Only what's "most fun for me", while being effective enough to complete the content. Sometimes the two overlapped. Sometimes they didn't. Same difference either way.

    I know that's difficult for many min-maxers to understand. Again, I reference my friend from FFXI who nagged me and sent me links to "optimal guides" for years when we played it, because he could not understand how I was enjoying the game if I (in his words) "wasn't playing it right".

    I got hassled constantly for playing Dragoon in FFXI, because it was widely considered a "weak job". Didn't care. I enjoyed it, so I played it. I got hassled incessantly when Ninja was considered the "must have job" for seemingly everything, but refused to play it myself. Why? Because Ninja wasn't fun to me, and I didn't want to spend my gaming time playing something I didn't enjoy. Despite all that, I always got into groups, completed content, and enjoyed myself, by my own terms.

    So, I don't expect you (or other min-maxers) to understand that difference in mindset... but I do wish you people would at least come to terms with it, and stop trying to bash others over the head with it. And yes, your initial response to me is an example of that.
    That's a lot of words to say you can't raid or do vet content unless you have a meta build......

    Like seriously it is impossible to clear DPS checks with anything other than top-tier setups that are homogenized to death.

    The excuse of "well you can do most content" is a weak cop-out.  In most games you have a meta team comp, but even those simply make it easier, not impossible to clear raids/high-end content.  Zenimax has decided to design AROUND that meta as the standard, and because the disparity is massive in ESO that means there is no options for endgame content.

    The fact that you literally cannot clear content after a certain point without conforming to the meta is a huge black mark.  You can downplay it all you want but it's a design failure.



    Dude... the metas are vet trials builds. You.... do ... not ... need... them for vet dungeons unless you want to cheese the mechanics in a speed run.
    Right....so if everyone ran a 2H/DW build on stamina DPS you could still clear vet dungeons?  Wrong.

    Yup. I could make that work... could you?
    At this point you're just lying to people.  Let them find out for themselves I suppose.  Just go look at the ESO forums and you'll see at least one or two threads a day about it from new players that find out they can't actually run what they want, don't have to take my word for it.
    He is not lying: the most important aspect of the game in terms of "power" is gear and CP, after that I would be far more worried about ability than not running a metabuild. For example, 2H/dw would be fine in vet dungeons for dps, and I have often run non-meta tank builds and got through things fine.
    So you can get carried by people who were twice as effective as you, is that supposed to be some sort of an achievement?

    Again, this is not a difference of 5-10%, in ESO you're talking DOUBLE the efficiency, usually more.  
    There is no need to get carried, like I said gear and CP followed by your ability to play the game (knowledge of dungeon/game mechanics, etc) play a much larger role than using a specific build. 

    Your whining about builds is almost laughable considering most pug groups are unlikely to have players with max CP and gold gear with optimal enchants, and half the time players don't even move out of red circles.

    Meanwhile, in pvp there is a vast array of potentially strong builds.

    I mean do you even play this game or do you just read the complaints on the forums and come here to bitch some more? 
    GdemamiQuarterStack
    ....
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,697
    Phry said:
    Phry said:
    ESO's graphics are okay, but they are also a bit dated, when you compare it to games such as BDO, where the quality of the graphics is significantly higher it tends to highlight the difference in generations.
    BDO definitely has some of the best graphics of the whole MMO industry, there's no doubt about that, but when it comes to art style I prefer ESO. BDO is sometimes a bit too "Asian little girls with short frilly skirts" for my taste in some classes. My Maehva is thankfully not affected by that.
    While some might disagree, i do think they could remove the tamer class entirely without detracting from the game in any way ;)
    But you are correct that the game does have quite a few 'asian' influences, which is to be expected given the origin of the game, fortunately it doesn't do it to the extent that games such as Blade and Soul do, for which i am very thankful. :p
    But I play a Tamer! I guess you guys are all either happily married or dead inside. Although I never understood the difference myself. 
    Torval
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
    • Song of the Week: Blackfield by Blackfield from Blackfield (2005)
    • Currently Playing: Devil May Cry 1
    • Favorite Drink: Bruichladdich Black Art 5th 1992
    • Gaming Timeline: Arcade, Commodore 64, Amiga 500, SEGA, IBM, PS, PC, PS2, More PCs, PS3, Giant PC, PS4, No More PCs, PS4 Pro.
  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 1,940
    k.jpg 574.5K
    TorvalYashaXConstantineMerus


  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,295
    You have mad design skills. I love the stuff you put together.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 1,940
    Torval said:
    ... snip ...
    You have mad design skills. I love the stuff you put together.
    Not my design.  Impressive pictures my fellow TESO gamers have shared with me.  Thus the "cite" link which means "I have gathered this information from somewhere else; it is not my doing."

    I probably will not be sharing any more pictures.  I loved how artistic this game is.  But it's time for me to leave.  I have been with TESO for a year now and that is about as long as I can stay with any game, mmo or otherwise.

    I'll return to my studies on game design, meshing, rigging, and some programming in my fav language C#.

    It was fun while it lasted but all good things end.
    YashaX


  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 433
    edited November 2017
    TaishiFox said:


    You do realize the same could be said about you, right?

    No, actually. It couldn't.

    If you don't understand why, please see @drivendawn's response to you.


Sign In or Register to comment.