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Old school design flaws... are they real problems !

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,739
    Kyleran said:
    Loke666 said:


    I don't have as much time today as I had in 1996 but I can still live with a slower game that takes a year to reach max level if I play casually, I don't see why that is a problem as long as leveling is fun. People today only think of the endgame but as long as you have fun, does it matter if you ever reach it?
    As Manfred Mann sang, "But mama, that's where the fun is...."

    Or so many players have come to believe.

    For many players, the concept of playing (and paying) for the same game month after month is foreign, they just aren't going to do it so developers are encouraged to find a way to get as much money from them up front or as early as possible after joining, and the designs and monetization models often reflect this.


    I really started noticing this when single player games started to take alot less time to complete....I knew several people that would buy a single player game, play it all weekend until they beat it, then never touch it again...I think it disciplined their minds to where games are short term and not long term.
    Gdemami
  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 523
    Hariken said:
    Back in 99/2000 mmo's were just played be a different crowd because it was this new genre and you could only play on a computer. The genre had a small foot print in gaming back then. To me that was the best time for mmo gaming.  It was all pc geeks that knew stuff about tech. You have to remember back then not everyone was on the internet yet. It was all new. By time Wow hit things had changed. Wow became this massive money maker and game companies lost their minds trying to do what Blizzard did. That's when it all went down hill. Yes those older mmo's had grind but it was different and the focus wasn't getting to max lvl like it is today. Todays mmo's just have to much gimmicky junk in them. The worse to me being stuff you would find in a console game.
    LOL, clearly you had no idea who was playing these games with you because there were about as many, if not more, stay at home mom's playing these games as the so-called computer geeks.  For many, it was just another form of a daytime soap opera to pass the hours away.

    People just prefer to spend the preponderance of their time on their cell phones these days.

    On a side note... I think the OP either gets paid by MMORPG to make these inane posts or he lives in his Mom's basement and is 42 years old.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Wizardry said:
    There is really only two ways to make the game,so there is no real old school versus new school.

    Instead what i am seeing is developers that don't want to spend the money or time or effort to make a really good rpg with mmo elements,instead try to change the actual genre into something that is both not a mmo nor a rpg.

    The reason people look at vanilla Wow is because they are thinking back BEFORE it's true face "end game" showed it's ugly face.However  when i look back it maybe had lot's of rpg elements but it was a poor MMO,as it was predominantly meant to solo all the time.Wow failed at the core basic delivery of a RPG game,no home no starting reason,like a city  fro example,just drop you down in the middle of nowhere.
    Point being that YES vanilla in games is likely better than anything opted towards end game but it still does not mean it was a good solid design,average at best.

    I dreamed of seeing this genre advance into something great,where everyday we felt like we really were in a living world.FFX was that awesome example,you felt like a part of the world,sometimes sleeping,playing Blitzball,it was not about gear grinds or end game.I have hoped devs could achieve a similar type game but in a MMO atmosphere and not a bunch of yellow markers over npc heads to follow in a linear fashion.

    I have given up hope of seeing that great truly Triple A mmorpg in my lifetime,oh well,someday some of you or your kids will see that great game and look back and realize ALL of these mmorpg's were not really that good.

    There are many ways to make a game. Sandbox, themepark. Levels, skillbased or a buy system. Quests, DEs or both. And almost unlimited ways no-one tried yet.

    But I agree, we all come down to the endgame most MMOs have today, it is not popular and most MMOs players try to avoid it.

    If we want MMOs to become as popular as they were 10 years ago we need a new endgame.
    Gdemami[Deleted User]
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    Kyleran said:
    Loke666 said:


    I don't have as much time today as I had in 1996 but I can still live with a slower game that takes a year to reach max level if I play casually, I don't see why that is a problem as long as leveling is fun. People today only think of the endgame but as long as you have fun, does it matter if you ever reach it?
    As Manfred Mann sang, "But mama, that's where the fun is...."

    Or so many players have come to believe.

    For many players, the concept of playing (and paying) for the same game month after month is foreign, they just aren't going to do it so developers are encouraged to find a way to get as much money from them up front or as early as possible after joining, and the designs and monetization models often reflect this.


    I really started noticing this when single player games started to take alot less time to complete....I knew several people that would buy a single player game, play it all weekend until they beat it, then never touch it again...I think it disciplined their minds to where games are short term and not long term.
    Depends on what do you expect from a game. They realized some people prefer to finish a game in a weekend. So they have made that an option. But even most of those titles can provide ~50hr of gameplay.

    I either quit a game I don't like, or would go for the full experience. Besides Telltale games, can't recall any other game taking less than 50 hours to complete. 
    [Deleted User]
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Loke666 said:
    Wizardry said:
    There is really only two ways to make the game,so there is no real old school versus new school.

    Instead what i am seeing is developers that don't want to spend the money or time or effort to make a really good rpg with mmo elements,instead try to change the actual genre into something that is both not a mmo nor a rpg.

    The reason people look at vanilla Wow is because they are thinking back BEFORE it's true face "end game" showed it's ugly face.However  when i look back it maybe had lot's of rpg elements but it was a poor MMO,as it was predominantly meant to solo all the time.Wow failed at the core basic delivery of a RPG game,no home no starting reason,like a city  fro example,just drop you down in the middle of nowhere.
    Point being that YES vanilla in games is likely better than anything opted towards end game but it still does not mean it was a good solid design,average at best.

    I dreamed of seeing this genre advance into something great,where everyday we felt like we really were in a living world.FFX was that awesome example,you felt like a part of the world,sometimes sleeping,playing Blitzball,it was not about gear grinds or end game.I have hoped devs could achieve a similar type game but in a MMO atmosphere and not a bunch of yellow markers over npc heads to follow in a linear fashion.

    I have given up hope of seeing that great truly Triple A mmorpg in my lifetime,oh well,someday some of you or your kids will see that great game and look back and realize ALL of these mmorpg's were not really that good.

    There are many ways to make a game. Sandbox, themepark. Levels, skillbased or a buy system. Quests, DEs or both. And almost unlimited ways no-one tried yet.

    But I agree, we all come down to the endgame most MMOs have today, it is not popular and most MMOs players try to avoid it.

    If we want MMOs to become as popular as they were 10 years ago we need a new endgame.

    A new end game would be nice...... But a large long game would be ok too.

    How about 4 to 9 months worth of content with replayability ? 
    How about being level 24 for a few days, remember this ?
    Gdemami
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    A new end game would be nice...... But a large long game would be ok too.

    How about 4 to 9 months worth of content with replayability ? 
    How about being level 24 for a few days, remember this ?
    I think we need to cut down on the amount of levels as well. 80 or 100 levels is not really more fun. People did enjoy to level up so some moron thought we should have tons of levels but that made leveling less fun and made getting good gear before the endgame pointless.

    What I want to see is slow leveling for the first toon but faster leveling when you make an alt that reaches a level you already have on another toon. Being lvl 24 for days is fine on your main but boring and grindy on an alt.
    KyleranConstantineMerusGdemami
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited October 2017
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    Loke666 said:


    I don't have as much time today as I had in 1996 but I can still live with a slower game that takes a year to reach max level if I play casually, I don't see why that is a problem as long as leveling is fun. People today only think of the endgame but as long as you have fun, does it matter if you ever reach it?
    As Manfred Mann sang, "But mama, that's where the fun is...."

    Or so many players have come to believe.

    For many players, the concept of playing (and paying) for the same game month after month is foreign, they just aren't going to do it so developers are encouraged to find a way to get as much money from them up front or as early as possible after joining, and the designs and monetization models often reflect this.




    Bingo. 

    The concept of how players habits changed over the years and the shift to shorter gameplay sessions and more game hopping cannot be overstated.




    I can't count how many people here on these forums such as you, Torval and others have said back in the day you would play one MMO at a time,  for a long period of time but no longer will do so today.

    I remain the purist, still only playing one game at a time (even with single player games now) but there are few like me these days, even here.

    I agree, I think the era of large numbers of players deciding large amounts of time to a single game are long past.  

    No doubt there is a niche that will still will but my guess is it won't be large.

    Heck, I don't think I fall into the long term player category and I might even even start playing "two" games at a time..whoo hoo

    Yep the days of people playing a single long session game (like MMORPGs) for years are long gone. 

    Example - Look at the most popular game on Steam - PlayerUnknown Battlegrounds it hit 1.8 million concurrent players- it's exactly how masses play games today - jump in, get into a match/world, play for 10-15min, rinse and repeat.

    Short playsessions are KEY to massive successes, being able to get to action quickly is key. It's not like players don't play PUBG for hours straight - they do - but it's still a bunch of short games in a row.

    Old school persistent world MMORPGs - like EQ1 and what Pantheon's doing - are the antithesis of how players play today, stuff like taking 20-30min just to GET to the spot where you are going to hunt for XP - yeah the vast majority simply has no patience for that.

    Don't get me wrong - as an old school player - I have no issues with EQ1 vanilla or Pantheon slow paced long session gameplay, but I am in the extreme minority - your average player today has no tolerance for this.
     
    Yea but Kano , i get the point you are trying to make with that ... But the people playing PUGB Are not MMORPG players they are FPS players and are playing the same sessions they have always played ( we all dive into those)Short session play  .. True MMORPG players are still in there game for the long haul,and longer play sessions,(of there chosen MMORPG game/games) , and this always was a smaller pop and always will be .. The FPS and MOBA crowd are just that .. FPS and MOBA players in it for short sessions
    Gdemami
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Loke666 said:

    A new end game would be nice...... But a large long game would be ok too.

    How about 4 to 9 months worth of content with replayability ? 
    How about being level 24 for a few days, remember this ?
    I think we need to cut down on the amount of levels as well. 80 or 100 levels is not really more fun. People did enjoy to level up so some moron thought we should have tons of levels but that made leveling less fun and made getting good gear before the endgame pointless.

    What I want to see is slow leveling for the first toon but faster leveling when you make an alt that reaches a level you already have on another toon. Being lvl 24 for days is fine on your main but boring and grindy on an alt.

    Fast leveling has so many downfalls and nothing good: 
    - Being level 24 for days lets new abilities sink in...allows practice.
    - Being level 24 for days allows you to make and keep friends at your level.  Have you ever lost a new friend because he played three hours more than you now he's level 31.
    - Being level 24 for days, allows you to enjoy a zone longer.

    Advantages of fast levels are for developers only:
    - Less content for each level.
    - Less large zones.
    - No need to practice, if your health bar doesn't go down.  What good are abilities ?

    Healing is a thing of the past !
    Tanking is a thing of the past !

    GdemamiCogohi
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    yes when i said two ways to make a game it was either linear questing or not.I am referring to how xp is allotted.I know lot's don't agree but imo xp should never be given for quests and i am not about to explain why,done it many times already,the reason should be obvious.

    All the subtle differences have no relation to old school or new,ideas are different from game to game through all years of game creation.

    FFXi and Wow have a few years in between each,so pretty much the same era,they are nothing of the same.The only time we can really establish an old versus new is if we talk MUDS versus actual 3D video games.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    People also seem to not understand another obvious concept,just because you might not have liked an idea from some old game does NOT mean it can never work.As well SELFISH reasons do not cut it,one has to figure what is best for everyone in a common sense,realistic manner.


    i have seen all sorts of devs claim certain idea are bad,what people seem to forget is that developer is merely supporting THEIR own game.You cannot listen to biased comments from developers nor even websites that profit by partnering with these developers,you will always get BS.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Loke666 said:
    I think we need to cut down on the amount of levels as well. 80 or 100 levels is not really more fun. People did enjoy to level up so some moron thought we should have tons of levels but that made leveling less fun and made getting good gear before the endgame pointless.

    What I want to see is slow leveling for the first toon but faster leveling when you make an alt that reaches a level you already have on another toon. Being lvl 24 for days is fine on your main but boring and grindy on an alt.

    Fast leveling has so many downfalls and nothing good: 
    - Being level 24 for days lets new abilities sink in...allows practice.
    - Being level 24 for days allows you to make and keep friends at your level.  Have you ever lost a new friend because he played three hours more than you now he's level 31.
    - Being level 24 for days, allows you to enjoy a zone longer.

    Advantages of fast levels are for developers only:
    - Less content for each level.
    - Less large zones.
    - No need to practice, if your health bar doesn't go down.  What good are abilities ?

    Healing is a thing of the past !
    Tanking is a thing of the past !

    If I played 4-9 months leveling up my main I think I can get a different class in a couple of weeks.

    As for keeping friends at your level, that doesn't really work if he plays more then you, soon you'll be 28 and he 32 and so on.

    And I notice a lot of your argument is more about difficulty then actual level, while modern games tend to speed up levels and decrease difficulty there is no reason they have to do both.

    I am agreeing with about levelspeed but I just don't see the point to grind  several characters through that slow speed. There is no reason people shouldn't be able to have alts, it will just force you to sepeat the same content over and over and make a rather insane grind.

    The first time you complete a zone in a slow leveling game you feel rather done with it, I rather not have a common level for all characters since we wont learn to play the others that way but once you have leveled up to max that should be the only purpose of leveling alts unless you have side unique zones and MMOs rarely if at all have those today.
    ConstantineMerusRobsolf
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Wizardry said:
    yes when i said two ways to make a game it was either linear questing or not.I am referring to how xp is allotted.I know lot's don't agree but imo xp should never be given for quests and i am not about to explain why,done it many times already,the reason should be obvious.

    All the subtle differences have no relation to old school or new,ideas are different from game to game through all years of game creation.

    FFXi and Wow have a few years in between each,so pretty much the same era,they are nothing of the same.The only time we can really establish an old versus new is if we talk MUDS versus actual 3D video games.

    Actually, XP should be rewarded for actual quests but not for the menial task 95% of the so called "quests" are. Delivering a message to a guy 20 feet away is not a quests, it is hardly even a task.

    Throwing the one ring into mount Doom is a quest or reclaiming your stolen throne (maybe by gaining control of 3 dragons and an army).
    ConstantineMerusRobsolf
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,898
    yes they are real flaws.
  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 3,004
    Back in the day of WoW when it was good yes you literally knew everyone on the server that logged in the same time zone you did. These days it's a little harder as it's different people each time so you can't get a close community anymore unless your in a guild with friends.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,823
    edited October 2017
    Well as a companion to your other thread this teases out another direction we were headed in right from the start towards the EasyMMO. This was on the cards way before the move towards cheapMMOs began. 

    But you don't mention the setting within that of gaming as a whole, which was on a slower road to easymode itself. The process was accelerated in MMOs due to their being dependant on continued subscription and then continued cash shop sales. Rather than solo games which had no reason to make you want to continue the playing the game in a few months time.

    To keep you playing in a MMO developers started to remove any "difficulties", such as making sure you had no meaningful choices you could come to regret like the "wrong" advanced class. How was the best way to do that? In their opinion it was to remove advanced classes, specializations etc or make them meaningless by allowing you to switch between them.

    The key design principle became keeping you in the game, which distorted gameplay in a way solo gaming had never seen. Today we have "solo" gaming with so much multiplayer elements that it too succumbed to the easy mode model.

    RIP Hardmode.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Akulas said:
    Back in the day of WoW when it was good yes you literally knew everyone on the server that logged in the same time zone you did. These days it's a little harder as it's different people each time so you can't get a close community anymore unless your in a guild with friends.
    Some of us work different hours and we get very few PUGs (I work nights and some works evnings) so for us the mega servers help a lot.

    A game like GW2 could be far better to put you in the same zone with as many of your server as possible though (unless you group with people from other servers) during primetime though, that is technically not that hard.
    ConstantineMerus
  • Gamer54321Gamer54321 Member UncommonPosts: 452
    I think this MMOrpg forum sucks! As if wasn't bad enough by having the front page load in a bizarre way, looking at the topic title for thread also annoy the shit out of me. If you want to put an emphasis on a question, you use a freaking question mark, not an exclamation point!

    Seems like people don't care for explaining what they mean, and I am thinking that maybe they are kids or maybe they don't have English as a native language, and then I am speculating that forum posts are artificially made, as if spammed on the forum, by people to try create a sense of it being busy.

    I do not want to visit this forum anymore because every time I come here, the opinions expressed and the topics raised seems so clumsy and stupid.
    Kyleran
  • Blaze_RockerBlaze_Rocker Member UncommonPosts: 370
    Seems a lot of people say first and second generation mmos had too many flaws.

    What problems ?

    - Maybe you need to use the SOCIAL PANEL and ask for friends and groups ?
    - Maybe, you actually have to ask for help now and then ?
    - Maybe you need to join a guild in order to get the materials for crafting ?
    - Maybe you need to use the auction to make money ?
    - Maybe you simply cant achieve something, no matter how hard you try ? 
    - Maybe you need to be social to run dungeons to keep up with gear ?
    - Maybe you had to travel to your destination ?
    - Maybe life in game is not easy all the time ?
    - Maybe specialized classes can't solo ?
    - Maybe you need to study to learn how to do something ? 
    - Maybe you need to play the game "nine months" instead of "two months" if time is a problem ? 

    ****** So, automatic everything is the answer ? ****** 


    I'm not talking about bugs, that's a different topic.


    Pretty sure those aren't flaws. Last time I checked, that's called "Playing the game as it's meant to be played".

    Don't like actually playing a game that requires you to actually do something? Then go find a game that caters to the special kind of snowflake that you are.

    I've got a feevah, and the only prescription... is more cowbell.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Seems a lot of people say first and second generation mmos had too many flaws.

    What problems ?

    - Maybe you need to use the SOCIAL PANEL and ask for friends and groups ?
    - Maybe, you actually have to ask for help now and then ?
    - Maybe you need to join a guild in order to get the materials for crafting ?
    - Maybe you need to use the auction to make money ?
    - Maybe you simply cant achieve something, no matter how hard you try ? 
    - Maybe you need to be social to run dungeons to keep up with gear ?
    - Maybe you had to travel to your destination ?
    - Maybe life in game is not easy all the time ?
    - Maybe specialized classes can't solo ?
    - Maybe you need to study to learn how to do something ? 
    - Maybe you need to play the game "nine months" instead of "two months" if time is a problem ? 

    ****** So, automatic everything is the answer ? ****** 


    I'm not talking about bugs, that's a different topic.


    Pretty sure those aren't flaws. Last time I checked, that's called "Playing the game as it's meant to be played".

    Don't like actually playing a game that requires you to actually do something? Then go find a game that caters to the special kind of snowflake that you are.

    What game? EQ certainly was made to be played that way but the newer games aren't.

    The main problem with modern MMOs is that almost all of them cateer to the same audience. In the late 90s to early 00s we had games like AC, UO, DaoC and many more filling their own niches, today the few games we have doing it like Eve are really old.

    As soon as you want something slightly different you have a very limited number of choices.

    But remaking those games wont really work as well as many here thinks, it is better to find an untapped playergroup large enough and make a new game designed just for them instead.

    For instance are there no good dungeon focused game anymore, all dungeons that matters get put in the endgame and there is actually a rather large potential playerbase for that. Just copying EQ for that wont cut it, make something new.

    People seems to enjoy flying mounts, license Dragonlance and put some focus on air combat between dragons, add in another group like open world group fans and you certainly could get plenty of players, the groupers have nowhere to go and the aerial combat in MMOs are pathetic at best.

    Just find a large enough group or 2 that have nothing to play and make something new and interesting for them. Right now all games are focused on super casuals for the open world and raiders for the endgame and while super casuals are the largest group there are 100 games competing for them while millions of players have very limited number of games to choose from.

    Everyone seems to think their game will be the next Wow and aim on the group that currently play it but guess what? You ain't going to get those players, at least not for more then a few weeks.
    Gdemami
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Loke666 said:
    For instance are there no good dungeon focused game anymore, all dungeons that matters get put in the endgame and there is actually a rather large potential playerbase for that. Just copying EQ for that wont cut it, make something new.
    Elder Scrolls Online wants a word with you about that...

    I understand what Loke666 is trying to say. 
    After all, every very modern mmo still seems to hang on to dungeons as a feature (well, most).

    However since modern mmos are so cheaply made and solo centric they do it reluctantly only to give players the most basic way of grouping, and it shows by being half hour speed run dungeons using quick LFD features with auto-strangers.

    Unfortunately, Elder Scrolls Online is a good example of "real bad technology".
    - Mega server
    - Broken replica of dungeons where people don't see each other (did they fix this garbage yet?)
    - Half hour speed runs
    - No name tag above player, this sure makes it immersive :) 



    I can only assume Loke666 is talking about good solid friendship where everyone is in a bad situation together, trying to survive as a group of fellow adventurers.

    Steelhelm
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    I don't like the dungeon idea at all but i can accept it IF they are done well enough.

    Dungeons are also typically small narrow passages forcing you to waste time killing stuff you don't want to kill.It is the devs lazy way of forcing longevity from a meaningless strip of cave passages.

    Mobs should be there for a reason,like why are they even there,what do they eat,which is why an eco system should exist.Boss mobs should not have  drop loot,then there is no need for instancing.They should be tied to the quest lines,not  as rinse/repeat loot grinding placeholders.

    Devs need to lose the cheap one directional game design and start creating realistic worlds,mobs killing mobs as part of an  eco system.Fire doesn't work in the rain or less effective,flooding,winds ruining your accuracy of  arrows etc etc.Let me see some real rpg game creation elements instead of end game loot grinding dungeons.
    Steelhelm

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    The problem is with our Culture today.   People are always looking for the new, cheap way to have some fast fun for a few weeks then move on.   Now I have not been on this site in over 6+ months because I been going through a major life change.   A Divorce and I am trying to get more active as well as healthier.  Ever since April I have lost 37 lbs.   Now what does that have to do with this discussion.   I have met several people around my age and even in their twenties who tried to work out an lose weight in this time frame.   The common complain is they only lost a pound or 2 in a month of casually going to the gym and bitched how hard it was to lose weight as well as how expensive the gym is.   

    Truth is the Gym while yes $70 a month is not the problem.  Its the culture of today's people that want fast easy fixes to things that have no fast easy fix.   Losing 37 lbs was not easy, it took work; I had to change my eating habit and I had to go to the gym when I wanted to sit around and be lazy.  These people are so use to getting participation trophies that when they encounter anything that takes real dedication and effort on their parts to succeed at they feel its too hard and things need to change to suit their mentality.   This pertains to not only MMORPGs but to today's game design philosophies because the developers see this in the culture and the developers want to go for maximizing profit so they pander to this crowd.

    So what has happened to games in general.  We have no more games like Contra, or the First Final Fantasy which takes effort and time to learn how to play.  Or Games like UO, SWG, EQ, Vanilla WOW that requires for you to be responsible for your game play.  No we shifted design to the 15 a minute a week gamers to make them happy while leaving the people who love games and love the challenge to only have it in a sub section of the game.  This makes both groups extremely bored extremely quickly so they game Hop.  This is not good for games overall because as we seen since the late 2000s the overall quality of game play has gone down and fewer and fewer people are playing games.  So what is happening we turn games into Esports now to prop-up a problem.  This too will collapse as time goes on.


    As someone who has gone from playing Games 40 to 60 hours a month down to 10 hours a month at best to fill my life with more valuable and richer experiences I cannot complain anymore that the quality of games have become so cheapened because my life is better because of it.  I now fish several days a month.  I take my kids to the YMCA and have them active in sports.  I lost a lot of weight.   I am getting out of a Marriage were my wife does nothing but play WOW all day long.   


    With that said I do think MMORPGs in general needed a change between Generation 1 and 2.  But they didnt need to cheapen the game so much because people cried about lack of time.  The Truth is the game should be designed so that you are not rushing to end game to do End game for 20 months then start the cycle out with a new expansion.   This is really a problem.  Games need to be more about the Journey not the designation.  Tools like better Non Automated group finding tools, and more options to get the gear you want other than just dungeon grinding would be more than enough change so people who really don't want to make a MMORPG their life can balance between game play and real life.  Problem is when you create a treadmill like we have today it kills long term game play.  Yes I can be more accepting of a game that takes me 6 months or longer to level if the game is about the journey not about getting to end game just so I can Raid.  Raiding use to be fun, BUT it was also over kill.   You can replace raiding with small group dungeons to get resources for crafters to craft gear vs WOW style Tiered Raiding.   You can have very long and hard quest lines that also required Dungeons and grouping to get stuff done.  I am thinking like the Hunter bow and Priest Staff in Vanilla WOW.  You can do that without becoming a single player game

    Anyways I seen this post and I felt complied to post here even though I only look at the site now once a week.   I do hope Ashes changes the MMORPG paradigm.  I as a casual player will be just fine never running my own city.  I could just be a member in a guild and have fun doing my own thing a few hours a week vs lets get on the FFXIV treadmill for stones.   
      
    borghive49
  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,607
    Rhoklaw said:
    Wizardry said:
    I don't like the dungeon idea at all but i can accept it IF they are done well enough.

    Dungeons are also typically small narrow passages forcing you to waste time killing stuff you don't want to kill.It is the devs lazy way of forcing longevity from a meaningless strip of cave passages.

    Mobs should be there for a reason,like why are they even there,what do they eat,which is why an eco system should exist.Boss mobs should not have  drop loot,then there is no need for instancing.They should be tied to the quest lines,not  as rinse/repeat loot grinding placeholders.

    Devs need to lose the cheap one directional game design and start creating realistic worlds,mobs killing mobs as part of an  eco system.Fire doesn't work in the rain or less effective,flooding,winds ruining your accuracy of  arrows etc etc.Let me see some real rpg game creation elements instead of end game loot grinding dungeons.
    I don't think any game developer wants to invest the amount of time and money it would take to make such an MMO. I agree with you that a focus on dungeon raids as endgame content is overused far too often in MMOs. Which is why I enjoyed ArcheAge and BDO a lot more than most other recent MMOs. Their worlds offered a multitude of activities to choose from to occupy your time. I'm not saying everyone enjoys farming, trading, fishing, crafting, horse training, treasure hunting or gathering, BUT having that amount of features DOES make a game seem more interesting and believable.

    However, things such as your eco system or the social AI I've been talking about for years, would probably end up having an astronomical cost. I believe a truly living, breathing sandbox world with a working eco system and socialistic AI for both NPC and mobs would be the only way to top WoW numbers. Unfortunately, I think game developers are content with feeding off the scraps for a quick and cheap investment turnaround.
    Ryzom has ecosystems.  I only had a short playthrough with it many many years ago, so my recollection is vague.  I clearly didn't like it enough to keep playing.   Not saying anybody is wrong or right; just that if they want ecosystems, they can try Ryzom.

    IMO, I think it's a mistake to just think that if someone just added X feature to the game, that it will be awesome.  I think it's more about figuring out what a player can and can't do by having that feature.  If an ecosystem just consists of species hunting/running from each other while the player goes through the map, I don't think that adds anything significant.  If, like GW2 you have social AI which does raids on towers or moves wagons back and forth as you repel bandits along its path, that too loses its luster.  It beats reading a wall of text, sure, but it just doesn't hold on its own for very long.

    These days, we're lucky enough that companies try to build MMO's at all, let alone building super-risky niche MMO's.  If I were looking for a "new old school game", I'd be latching onto the best bet I could find, smooching that company's butt, and doing whatever I could to help it launch.
    [Deleted User]Cogohi
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Torval said:
    That's what the "snowflakes" did though didn't they? They took their ball to studios and publishers that cater to what they think is fun.

    The real complaint here is that studios are making games for snowflakes and not self-styled mmo authorities. The salt in the wound is that snowflakes are having fun in their snowflake games and don't worry over what proper mmo gamers think.
    While I ain't sure what Delets problem is, my problem is more that the games are too similar and all trying to sell to the exact same players.

    There should be far more room for more difference in the games, I don't ask for anything specific, just more variation and I think the genre would be more popular if the games would be less similar to eachother.

    I do feel that the discussion is more about "new stuff suck" Vs "old stuff sucks" then snowflakes Vs MMO know'it-alls though. 
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Loke666 said:
    Torval said:
    That's what the "snowflakes" did though didn't they? They took their ball to studios and publishers that cater to what they think is fun.

    The real complaint here is that studios are making games for snowflakes and not self-styled mmo authorities. The salt in the wound is that snowflakes are having fun in their snowflake games and don't worry over what proper mmo gamers think.
    While I ain't sure what Delets problem is, my problem is more that the games are too similar and all trying to sell to the exact same players.

    There should be far more room for more difference in the games, I don't ask for anything specific, just more variation and I think the genre would be more popular if the games would be less similar to eachother.

    I do feel that the discussion is more about "new stuff suck" Vs "old stuff sucks" then snowflakes Vs MMO know'it-alls though. 

    I like the last line "new stuff suck" Vs "old stuff sucks". 

    It's like everything on the list should have been improved instead of changed into something unrecognizable. 


    It's like taking a FPS like Halo and giving him a sling shot that shoots jelly beans.  Then when he makes it to the first outpost, he has a cute little pink piggy riding game waiting for him.

    Now it would be ok if a game or two were made for the "snowflakes".  BUT EVERYONE, and not a single one left as an mmo.
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