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PUBG and Fortnite – The Drama Continues - General Columns

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  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,007
    So instead of thanking Epic for allowing them to use their engine and make millions on a game mode that has been around for years they throw a fit? They could have always made the game from scratch. Of course the game would still be in development and they would need to change the name to -
    Unknown to Players Battleground.
    zerocount
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,760
    laxie said:
    After watching actual gameplay of Fortnite, it does show some similarity.

    Especially the opening sequence, with waiting for the game to start. Then flying in on a plane and parachuting down - it looks very similar to PUBG. I think Epic could have been a bit more original. You could have people beam down from space or something of that sort. I would not be comfortable releasing a product that similar to something out there.

    On the other hand, Fortnite has building, gathering and item crafting. It also has a completely different art style. The game would handle very differently, the combat would be quite different.

    You probably can't make a solid case, even if the opening sequence is quite similar.


    It was possible to mistake Runes of Magic for World of Warcraft at times. It's not like people can't play both just like they might also play R6 Siege, Overwatch, BF1, or CSGO.

    I don't own and haven't played either but I've watched both and the atmosphere and gunplay look very different.
    laxie
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    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,713
    Torval said:
    Dakeru said:
    Well I see a lot of posts here saying you can't copyright a genre and I agree.

    However watching that video does give you a deeper insight.
    Fortnite randomly added a battle royal mode which is a carbon copy of PUBG.

    Taking into account that PUBG is paying royalties to them just to get blatantly copied... yeah I would try my luck with a lawyer too.

    If you're not a developer you'd think that is how it works, or should. If you're a developer you're either not being honest or you live in some crazy utopian dev ecosystem inside Area 51. :smirk:
    If they had at least changed a few things but it's an obvious 1:1 copy and they didn't even try to hide it.

    You guys are convinced that there is nothing that can be done about it. That's fine.

    I think pointing out all the "borrowed" elements is enough to give it a shot at court.
    Harbinger of Fools
  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,007
    edited September 2017
    @Dakeru

    Pay close attention to 14:, and 17: a, b c, and d.
    The second PUBG tries any legal action, PUBG no longer exists.

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  • mrputtsmrputts Member UncommonPosts: 271
    Xodic said:
    @Dakeru

    Pay close attention to 14:, and 17: a, b c, and d.
    The second PUBG tries any legal action, PUBG no longer exists.

    I wonder if you can get a refund if they get their game terminated...

    Ea is like a poo fingered midas ~ShakyMo

  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,007
    mrputts said:
    Xodic said:
    @Dakeru

    Pay close attention to 14:, and 17: a, b c, and d.
    The second PUBG tries any legal action, PUBG no longer exists.

    I wonder if you can get a refund if they get their game terminated...
    E. No Refunds

    Except to the extent required by law, all payments, fees and royalties are non-refundable under all circumstances, regardless of whether or not this Agreement has been terminated.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,281
    Xasapis said:
    I don't see how anyone can claim ownership of a genre. The mere notion is ludicrous and if Bluehole is actually claiming such a thing, they are delusional.

    In fact, I'm pretty sure I could make an identical replica of their game and as long as they didn't share the same code, they could do nothing to prevent me from selling it. After all, it's not like it hasn't been done before, over and over again.
    And you'd be wrong, copy the look and feel too closely and the courts might come down on you.

    Read the Tetris decision for better understanding. 


    laxie

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  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,052
    Xasapis said:
    I don't see how anyone can claim ownership of a genre. The mere notion is ludicrous and if Bluehole is actually claiming such a thing, they are delusional.

    In fact, I'm pretty sure I could make an identical replica of their game and as long as they didn't share the same code, they could do nothing to prevent me from selling it. After all, it's not like it hasn't been done before, over and over again.
    You can't claim ownership of an idea, but you can own the expression of an idea.

    In games, you can't own the general rules of a game. If you were explaining a game to a non-gamer in general terms, you could not claim ownership of that description. For a game like Tetris, this would be something like "stacking block patterns on top of each other in order to form complete lines, scoring points as a result". The person got busted in the Tetris case, because they used the exact same block patterns as Tetris - that is an expression of the idea (they could have used any other variation in patterns or a different grid size).

    For a battle royale, you probably can't own the idea of fighting other people until a single one is standing. You probably also can't own the idea of a shrinking battlefield, nor selecting where you start the battle, nor the idea of collecting weapons scattered on the battlefield. You might be able to own the expression of it though - perhaps flying in on an army plane, having a specific set of weapons, the shape of the play area. In a MOBA, you might own the idea of having 5 melee minions and 2 caster minions in a wave.

    If your product has too many of these similarities in the expression of the idea, the court might rule against you.

    Given the fact that PUBG and Fortnite is so dissimilar thematically though, I think you'd struggle to argue one might confuse them. The weapons aren't even scattered on the floor, in Fortnite you find chests. Fortnite has crafting and building. I think the expression of the idea is fairly unique. Much more so than the relationship between WoW (technically Everquest) and most MMORPGs. If PUBG could win a case against Fortnite, Everquest could win a case against any MMORPG out there.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,760
    laxie said:
    Xasapis said:
    I don't see how anyone can claim ownership of a genre. The mere notion is ludicrous and if Bluehole is actually claiming such a thing, they are delusional.

    In fact, I'm pretty sure I could make an identical replica of their game and as long as they didn't share the same code, they could do nothing to prevent me from selling it. After all, it's not like it hasn't been done before, over and over again.
    You can't claim ownership of an idea, but you can own the expression of an idea.

    In games, you can't own the general rules of a game. If you were explaining a game to a non-gamer in general terms, you could not claim ownership of that description. For a game like Tetris, this would be something like "stacking block patterns on top of each other in order to form complete lines, scoring points as a result". The person got busted in the Tetris case, because they used the exact same block patterns as Tetris - that is an expression of the idea (they could have used any other variation in patterns or a different grid size).

    For a battle royale, you probably can't own the idea of fighting other people until a single one is standing. You probably also can't own the idea of a shrinking battlefield, nor selecting where you start the battle, nor the idea of collecting weapons scattered on the battlefield. You might be able to own the expression of it though - perhaps flying in on an army plane, having a specific set of weapons, the shape of the play area. In a MOBA, you might own the idea of having 5 melee minions and 2 caster minions in a wave.

    If your product has too many of these similarities in the expression of the idea, the court might rule against you.

    Given the fact that PUBG and Fortnite is so dissimilar thematically though, I think you'd struggle to argue one might confuse them. The weapons aren't even scattered on the floor, in Fortnite you find chests. Fortnite has crafting and building. I think the expression of the idea is fairly unique. Much more so than the relationship between WoW (technically Everquest) and most MMORPGs. If PUBG could win a case against Fortnite, Everquest could win a case against any MMORPG out there.
    Or DIKU against EQ. Where does it end?
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  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,052
    Torval said:
    Or DIKU against EQ. Where does it end?
    I mean, Pong had bats. And orcs in RPGs also carry bats.
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,713
    Xodic said:
    @Dakeru

    Pay close attention to 14:, and 17: a, b c, and d.
    The second PUBG tries any legal action, PUBG no longer exists.

    I think you should have paid attention to the points you listed yourself.
    Those points say that your license will be revoked when you steal code or intelectual property of third parties.

    It says nothing about them being allowed to do whatever they want.

    If they go the blackmail route and revoke the license for PUBG then no one will ever use their engine again.
    Harbinger of Fools
  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 579
    edited September 2017
    Dakeru said:
    Xodic said:
    @Dakeru

    Pay close attention to 14:, and 17: a, b c, and d.
    The second PUBG tries any legal action, PUBG no longer exists.

    I think you should have paid attention to the points you listed yourself.
    Those points say that your license will be revoked when you steal code or intelectual property of third parties.

    It says nothing about them being allowed to do whatever they want.

    If they go the blackmail route and revoke the license for PUBG then no one will ever use their engine again.
    The thing is they could revoke it basically based off legal threats to them that are unfounded as that could be considered libel/defimation. There are similarities, but it is nowhere near a 1:1 ripoff either. Their baser claims are basically stating that epic shouldn't be able to make a game that competes with anyone that they work with or that licenses their engine. Epic would basically no longer be able to make ANY games using their rather flawed logic. Not to mention the so called "using pubg for promotion" was literally epic saying "We love battle royale games like PUBG"

    Not to mention that Epic has a much longer history of licensing their engine and making games that compete with those that they license to and it has NEVER been an issue until PUBG. And their reasoning is based on things epic "could do"

  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 579
    MaxBacon said:
    Dauzqul said:
    They pay EPIC royalties because they licensed to use their engine. If EPIC wants to make a Battle Royale game, they have every right to.

    You can't copyright game modes. Petty lawsuit by a petty company.
    Yeah I got the same.

    Sure it leaves a salty taste on EPIC's clients on creating direct competitors to their games at the same time they charge them royalties to use their engine, but end of the day they aren't doing anything that would be logically illegal.
    The thing is it is known that Epic makes games and licenses their engine now for like 20+ years. This isn't a new company popping up that is doe eyed (nor is bluehole, though bluehole is much much younger than epic is). Epic has been making games and licensing their engine for so long that it isn't somehow a magically unknown variable and this is the first time ever that something like this has EVER come up in their long storied history.

    The only legal trouble that epic ever got into before was the whole Silicon Knights debacle which Silicon Knights lost quite handily. If it were a problem it would of already reared its head by now sometime in the last 20 or so years. 
  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 579
    Aztok said:
    Sounds like all the want is for Epic games to play fair and not cripple Bluehole. when really its already to late. Epic games will cash in on the genre's success and eat bluehole alive. its just business.

    They shouldve made contracts that wouldve prevented Epic games from doing this very thing.
    Epic would not be able to make any games ever based on their logic. Epic is trying to cash in on the genre's success yes. However unless Bluehole has a specific contract drawn up and isn't just licensing the engine they are under the standard terms of service any other licensee is. Epic has never had an issue both supporting a competing game and making a game that competes with their own in 20+ years. No one has ever had issue with epic making competing games and it isn't fair to expect them not to be able to make their own game mode.

    Not to mention that almost everything PUBG is is marketplace based assets to begin with. You can't draw up your own contracts to license someone else's technology/engine unless you have a "special" relationship with them.

    Epic treats everyone the same with their licensing and just because they are making a competing product doesn't mean they won't offer fair support to PUBG/Bluehole and nothing in their history suggests they would do so. 
  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 579
    taukuota said:
    As I understood it, the main problem here is that PUBG is using unreal engine to build BR game. Unreal engine is not suited for sich type of game therefore PUBG had to create custom modifications for unreal engine to make it work. And now they think that those custom modifocations from PUBG team were used to build Fortnite?
    Thing is. People have already made blueprints for Battle Royale type game modes. It is completely doable using blueprints as it is and the engine is quite literally already capable of it through blueprints. People sell those blueprints and PUBG actually used a lot of assets from epic's unreal marketplace. 
  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 579
    MaxBacon said:
    Fortnite ain't gonna drop Battle Royale, it's going F2P in 2 days (the specific game mode) and highlights the main game, so it shows they have a strong development direction to iterate on PvP.

    This gives is bad publicity is to Unreal Engine, that Epic would be willing to take upon their clients and create direct competitors to them with no refrain while charging them royalties.
    It doesn't though. Epic has been doing that for 20+ years. The industry has never had an issue with it until bluehole started up. Epic has never had an issue supporting and making competitive products at the same time as supporting licensees of their engine. Unless epic is flat out using bluehole's code there is nothing to see here and unless bluehole submitted that code directly to epic epic has 0 access to it and they know better not to use that code. They aren't some new doe eyed company like I said. 
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member RarePosts: 1,649
    PUBG is just giving Fortnite a bunch of free publicity. I'm sure many people didn't even know the game until they saw it mentioned everywhere in the last few days.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,961
    edited September 2017
    It doesn't though. Epic has been doing that for 20+ years. The industry has never had an issue with it until bluehole started up. Epic has never had an issue supporting and making competitive products at the same time as supporting licensees of their engine. Unless epic is flat out using bluehole's code there is nothing to see here and unless bluehole submitted that code directly to epic epic has 0 access to it and they know better not to use that code. They aren't some new doe eyed company like I said. 
    One can't simply make the code claim when both use the same engine that Epic Develops.

    In that aspect, they use a lot of the same code, now it gets more over being the same base codebae being also the same game idea and design copied under the Fortnite title, pissing off PUBG lol

    If you as a game developer get Unreal Engine, you're paying royalties to Epic, make your own game under it, then Epic decides to make a game directly based on your design that will be direct competition, you won't be so happy paying them royalties then wouldn't you? :p
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,760
    MaxBacon said:
    It doesn't though. Epic has been doing that for 20+ years. The industry has never had an issue with it until bluehole started up. Epic has never had an issue supporting and making competitive products at the same time as supporting licensees of their engine. Unless epic is flat out using bluehole's code there is nothing to see here and unless bluehole submitted that code directly to epic epic has 0 access to it and they know better not to use that code. They aren't some new doe eyed company like I said. 
    One can't simply make the code claim when both use the same engine that Epic Develops.

    In that aspect, they use a lot of the same code, now it gets more over being the same base codebae being also the same game idea and design copied under the Fortnite title, pissing off PUBG lol

    If you as a game developer get Unreal Engine, you're paying royalties to Epic, make your own game under it, then Epic decides to make a game directly based on your design that will be direct competition, you won't be so happy paying them royalties then wouldn't you? :p

    If you're going to extrapolate to that degree then every program in existence shares code base.

    Epic didn't make a game based on BlueHole's design because BlueHole didn't design anything original at all in that game. Believe it or not, before PUBG paratrooping was a thing, weapon caches were a thing, shooting was a thing, survival was a thing. Nothing they did was original. It's just fun and popular. Don't confuse the two.

    On top of that it's already been stated that engine developers do directly compete with those they license their engine with. It happens in the game industry and outside of it because there are software engines for all kinds of things, not just games. Here are three engine examples licensed outside the game industry where the developer charges hefty fees for the license and also provides software functionality directly competes with their customers: Qvera, LEADTOOLS, and Pentaho.

    BlueHole may be inexperience with this but it's not an uncommon practice at all.
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  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 579
    MaxBacon said:
    It doesn't though. Epic has been doing that for 20+ years. The industry has never had an issue with it until bluehole started up. Epic has never had an issue supporting and making competitive products at the same time as supporting licensees of their engine. Unless epic is flat out using bluehole's code there is nothing to see here and unless bluehole submitted that code directly to epic epic has 0 access to it and they know better not to use that code. They aren't some new doe eyed company like I said. 
    One can't simply make the code claim when both use the same engine that Epic Develops.

    In that aspect, they use a lot of the same code, now it gets more over being the same base codebae being also the same game idea and design copied under the Fortnite title, pissing off PUBG lol

    If you as a game developer get Unreal Engine, you're paying royalties to Epic, make your own game under it, then Epic decides to make a game directly based on your design that will be direct competition, you won't be so happy paying them royalties then wouldn't you? :p
    The thing is there are multiple ways to do a blueprint. Also people are selling Battle Royale/LMS blueprints and have been for a bit now. To further a dd epic has been making games and competing with people that use their engine again as I stated. You seem to of ignored the rest of the comment entirely. Epic could go back to their old model which would mean these people have to pay out a lot more money up front for each and every project and they can deem who they want to work with or not and then all these developers springing up would need to make their own engines to do anything from the ground up or deal with epic controlling the gates as it were entirely. 

    Epic makes games and was a game developer before they made their engine available for licensing and when they did it was closed off and you had to pay a large fee to them at a time up front. They have since the later part of UE3's lifespan made the engine free to use up front, but collect royalties if you make money from your game (and only if you plan on making money I might add) also. No developer has in epic's long history of licensing their engine ever had a problem with epic (other than silicon knights who sued them and lost for "not providing a complete engine, and silicon knights were in breach of contract for not paying what they were supposed to) 

    You just seem to happily ignore the long history epic has of both making games that compete with licensees while also happily supporting licensees of their engine. They also have far more experience making games than Bluehole does so them able to turn around and make a game mode (that isn't all that complicated) doesn't mean they "stole" anything. Not to mention again that a lot of what bluehole used was Unreal Marketplace assets in the first place. Hell they might of bought a blueprint from someone for all we know. 
  • HeraseHerase Member RarePosts: 992
    Dakeru said:
    If they had at least changed a few things but it's an obvious 1:1 copy and they didn't even try to hide it.

    You guys are convinced that there is nothing that can be done about it. That's fine.

    I think pointing out all the "borrowed" elements is enough to give it a shot at court.
    The fact fortnight has base building makes it far far from being 1:1 copy.
    Different gun system, graphics, mechanics. the only thing that is similar is the parachuting in part, any other parts can be found in any other BR game
    Torvallaxie
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,961
    Torval said:
    If you're going to extrapolate to that degree then every program in existence shares code base.

    BlueHole may be inexperience with this but it's not an uncommon practice at all.
    This is a very specific case.

    What I know is if I was a client of Epic, using their engine and paying them royalties, I would be pissed if Epic created a game that is very similar and directly competes with my game and offers pretty much the same thing. But this is one annoyance though, not something to sue for.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,760
    MaxBacon said:
    Torval said:
    If you're going to extrapolate to that degree then every program in existence shares code base.

    BlueHole may be inexperience with this but it's not an uncommon practice at all.
    This is a very specific case.

    What I know is if I was a client of Epic, using their engine and paying them royalties, I would be pissed if Epic created a game that is very similar and directly competes with my game and offers pretty much the same thing. But this is one annoyance though, not something to sue for.

    You could always write your own engine at that point. That's what people do who don't like that deal. Or they might pay extra licensing fees as a result. That could be an option.
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  • DeadlyDagDeadlyDag Member UncommonPosts: 8
    Arskaaa said:
    hope they sue shit out fortnite. i dint buyed that game for pvp.


    I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but you know that the PvP-part of the game is free, and that the PvE-part is totally separate and are fully functional, yes?
    They are even implementing zombie/horde-mode soon on PvE.
  • saintriku92saintriku92 Member UncommonPosts: 87
    For the people saying epic is in the wrong, and that they carbon copied pubg, theres this game called h1z1 king of the king....and oddly enough its got the same opening sequence as pubg. funny huh? 
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