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Pantheon doing level scaling? Seriously?
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I still have the impression that mentoring will only affect a very few people and probably isn't worth making it a development priority.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Downscaling ensures this content is experienced, and providing unique rewards to the higher level player makes it worth his while. Imo, a much better system than boosting.
If the content isn't being scaled, it will inherently be a fairly linear progression. But I think we're debating two different situations here.
The only true difference between up and down scaling is that when it's only down the new low level player has to play the game on rails following a specific path from appropriate area to appropriate area in the traditional RPG way. With up scaling they don't. For a high level player up or down makes absolutely zero difference since they can go anywhere and fight mobs at their level everywhere.
Having said that, I would expect that fans of this game in particular, who all seem to be into it for the retro vibe, would hate anything that deviates from the way it was always done in the "good ole days."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
No developer is going to want the work they've put into lower level content to be completely skipped by a new player just because he has a friend who's been playing a while longer to boost him. That renders the time spent developing that content less useful. With the content locusts in the genre these days, that's a serious concern for developers.
It's why new zones and expansions in traditional MMOs are always about the max level player and they have level creep. Scaling is a great way to add to the game without restricting who can take advantage of it (and doing silly shit like selling instant level 100 perks.)
Doing it solo or with friends doesn't come into it at all unless there just is no other meaningful reason for going back to those zones you already discarded.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
If you're going to dynamically scale the player to all content/all content to the player, there's not a real reason to have to implement a mentoring system aside from encouraging group play. Everyone will be scaled to roughly the same effectiveness at that point.
The carrot's on the stick for a reason in these games. Not saying I don't wish it were different, simply trying to be realistic.
You can take any of these games apart, and examine their entrails in detail. The more you do that, the less realistic they become.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
With that said, I'd very much like to see that treadmill system flipped on its head. I just have a hard time imagining in my mind's eye a system that would hold the player's attention more effectively. Even in immensely popular games outside the genre, such as Destiny, we can see that "ooh shiny!" carrot is extremely popular and extremely effective. They even provide an easy overview of your current carrot level (light level) that helps you compare where you are to what's next for your gameplay agenda. Other than farming those light levels, there's not much of a point to Destiny after you complete the story missions.
Imagine the reaction had Bungie eliminated light level progression, instead relying solely on solid gunplay to keep you playing the same missions over and over with no real point or progression to be had. That ooh shiny! carrot is dangerously tasty!
Story carrots could hold it better and would be more enjoyable for me, but that requires a metric shit ton more dev time to keep a constant stream of quality story content coming.
Without a lot of effort or thought,just going on what i know from my fave game,it can be and there are easy ways to create longevity in a fashion that players will enjoy.
Sub class,with 20 classes that is a LOT of leveling to raise all the various classes to attain a more versatile character.
What is baffling is that almost every single developer saw it right in front of their eyes with their crafting systems but couldn't figure it out with classes.I am talking about allowing players to craft more than one profession,classes same thing,it doesn't even make sense to LIMIT players unless done in a way that makes sense.
Scaling does NOT make sense,not in any way.the reason mobs have levels is because they need to have that identity ,this is gaming we can't give them real life AI,that would be impossible,so we give them identifiable aspects like a level 50 Dragon,breathes massive AOE damage fire.Once yo ustart scaling stuff you remove all of that,what then a scaled level 1 Dragon breathing a small 15 dmg aoe more of a bad breathe than a fire breathing Dragon?You remove the mobs identity and turn it into nothing more than a number,a piece of code.
I don't know why i even bother to explain things,if people don't GET IT,they likely never will,just keep on trucking with yellow markers ,lines and arrows flashing around bla bla whatever enjoy whatever ,we can even remove the label,no more mmorpg just call everything a GAME or a pile of C++ code.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Moaning for the thousandth time...
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Many people consider mmo pve too easy. Add scaling to that and you take away the ability to find something harder. Difficulty sliders are not a fix for this. Even if you turned a slider up and made every mob more difficult, once you've killed one mob, you've killed them all, there is nothing to look forward to. Boring.
For the most part I find your arguement pretty much nonsensical. You sound like a brainwashed lefty socialist. It sounds like you are arguing for not only mob scaling but gear scaling too. Make every player the same and every mob the same, then it's all about "playing together". Except it would be boring as hell and nobody would play at all. Might as well play a shooter . Those are fun because of the action, not the progression, and progression is a big part of what an MMO is supposed to be about.
The only thing worse than a lefty socialist is that other kind of socialist, whoever they are,
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It's my opinion that the LFD system itself has cheapened the worth of players even more so than gear checks. Being able to hit a few buttons and have the game find another player for you, sometimes even adding and porting them to the dungeon automatically, means every player is pretty much completely expendable.
I do remember times in DAoC where we would take on players a little bit low level, a little bit underskilled or under geared, simply because we knew the player behind the screen was chill and it was better to endure the additional challenge of using that player in the group as opposed to attempting to find a "more perfect" fit for the group comp and content. It wasn't perfect, but it increased the value of the person behind the avatar. Of course, DAoC also divided players into smaller servers, which inherently made the community more familiar and increased the value of a positive reputation witin that community. Cross-realm grouping destroyed that benefit, to the detriment only of those players who earnestly wish to leave a positive mark, and to the largest benefit of the vitriolic player who only wishes to endure other players insofar as it serves their goal exclusively.
Even in ESO, gear alters the overall effectiveness of a character, despite the global scaling. Add an LFD that allows player to port in and you have a recipe for players treating each other like NPCs.
Causing gamers to see past the stat sheet would take more than simple scaling, as even scaling leaves room for gear progression (at least, in the games that I've experienced it in). Since progression isn't going the way of the dodo anytime soon (too efficient a method to keep players playing without having to constantly release new content), I think the genre would be well-served to search for ways to root out bad behavior on a globally recognized scale, as well as rewarding good behavior in the same global manner.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Nobody cares if you have 500 instances if only 5 are relevant.
National Socialists were considered "right wing" - and there are a wide range of "left" and "right" socialist parties in Europe.
And pretty much all US parties have "socialist" elements since "socialism" simply means some stuff owned by "everyone" or by "some collective" - there is a debate about what but that is it at its most basic.
Sheesh I remember the uproar from lefty Fort Worth Texans when it was proposed that a highway be built by a private company who would charge tolls. People - it seemed - thought that the new road should be in public ownership. Along with lots of other stuff ... schools, an army etc. etc.
And when there is a disaster you would be amazed at how quickly those impacted feel that "the socialist state" should shift into action and come to the rescue. (And hopefully the rescue operation needed in Puerto Rico and other islands impacted will be in high gear soon.)
As for Dungeons and their relevance, a single dungeon will have various levels of content, i.e. a dungeon can have content for levels 10-50, the entrance of the dungeon is low level content and the further you go the higher level you'll need to be, and at the end of the dungeon there is the possibility for a raid zone, this way no artwork or zones are "wasted" for the low levels.
For a group of 10-15 to stay ahead of 6 solo players, there needs to be at least 6 mobs per group in an area to provide the raw XP. So, to support 5 groups at this level range, the dungeon would need to supply 30 appropriate level mobs to fight.
Now, with a min-max difference of 5 levels, there are 8 range brackets within a 10-50 range. This immediately balloons the dungeon population to 240 mobs (8 x 30). Not totally impossible. But that's only 1 group at each level bracket. For that dungeon to support 6 simultaneous groups at each bracket, that's going to be 1440 (240 x 6) mobs in total. That's a bit more problematic. It is going to make the footprint of the dungeon rather large to keep the mobs independent and prevent graphic rendering issues.
What happens when an extra group tries to squeeze in at a specific bracket? If a 7th 30-35 group enters the dungeon, they can either 'compete' with the other 6 30-35 groups for level appropriate spawns, or they can take a disproportionate number of the 25-30 (or even the 20-25) mobs. Overpopulation puts pressure on the dungeon both laterally and downward. In my example, a 7th group in the 30-35 bracket could impact 19 total groups, potentially causing conflict for 100+ players.
We don't know how Pantheon will actually implement the grouping function, if there will be bonuses or other incentives to encourage grouping. We haven't had experience with their default mob scaling to know if a group of 30-35 is better off hunting 30-35 mobs, or sticking with weaker mobs (25-30) for best XP.
My instinct suggests that dungeons will not be all inclusive. They will cater to 2 adjacent brackets (25-30 and 30-35), with larger dungeons supporting a smaller bracket (10-15) as a secondary hunting area. The idea of a single 10-50 hunting area is wonderful, but is really more a single-player / single-group concept. That's an idea that doesn't easily scale to a multi-group environment.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
You mentioned solo players, I don't believe dungeons will be solo player friendly, at most they'll be able to kill the entrance guards, but not progress further (unless they out level it). Solo players will have to stick to roaming mobs on the outdoor zones, and easy low level outdoor camps (it's what i'm beating on at least)
As for the dungeon level range, I don't know if they'll make a 10-50 single dungeon zone, they might opt to divide the dungeon in 3 or more level ranges ( i.e.10-20 30-35 45-50), instead of having a full 10-50 levelling option. But i'm almost certain that a single dungeon will support multiple levels of content, they'll not create dungeons or zones specifically for low levels, those low level zones dungeons will have relevant high level content.