Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Which MMO most promoted griefing?

1121314151618»

Comments

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,503
    So to sum up the thread:

    Side A: You consent to PvP when you log into a PvP game. All PvP that is allowed by the devs is intended. You can not be griefed by someone who is playing the game the way the devs intended it to be played.

    Side B: We don't care what the creator of the game intended. Our feelings are all that matter. If you hurt our feelings we will call you mentally ill, morally bankrupt, an "a$$hole", and a "total failure as a human being" because that's a rational response to being inconvenienced.

    Neither side is going to budge and there's no common ground. Continuing to argue is pointless.


    The reason you made that conclusion is because you see it in black or white. Either it is totally fine or it is a mental illness. But the fact is there are lots of shades in between. 
    So true. I am pretty well done with this thread, at this point the: "There is no griefing" Crowd and just being obstinate for no other reason than to just be obstinate.  Willful ignorance and immaturity that I am done entertaining. I look at the roll call here, the who's who of trolls on this forum.

    Anyway, all valid points have been made and the rational people, and I would add people that actually participate in PvP, understand and tend to agree more or less.

    Cheers.

    GdemamiVengeSunsoarMadFrenchie[Deleted User]IselinConstantineMerusKyleran

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

    In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,041
    Rhoklaw said:
    Rhoklaw said:

    I'm tired of this political correctness filter, so I'm just going to be blunt. People who grief are mentally ill.
    It's a game.

    I can be blunt as well. People who take games or things that happen in games too seriously are mentally ill.
    Same could be said about going to the movies. Just because there happens to be some asshat in the crowd that ruins the movie, we should just get over it right? Even though we spent $20. It doesn't matter how you try to twist the subject around, I'll be able to come right back and throw it in your face with more stupid analogies.

    No one said anything about taking games too seriously. It's called paid entertainment, whether in the form of a subscription or a cash shop. If people invest money in something and some twat decides to ruin that value of entertainment because they are an immature asshat, it's called griefing and people who defend that kind of crap are definitely mentally ill.
    Careful, he might call you a snowflake. He's tough like that.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Hatefull
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    lahnmir said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Rhoklaw said:

    I'm tired of this political correctness filter, so I'm just going to be blunt. People who grief are mentally ill.
    It's a game.

    I can be blunt as well. People who take games or things that happen in games too seriously are mentally ill.
    Same could be said about going to the movies. Just because there happens to be some asshat in the crowd that ruins the movie, we should just get over it right? Even though we spent $20. It doesn't matter how you try to twist the subject around, I'll be able to come right back and throw it in your face with more stupid analogies.

    No one said anything about taking games too seriously. It's called paid entertainment, whether in the form of a subscription or a cash shop. If people invest money in something and some twat decides to ruin that value of entertainment because they are an immature asshat, it's called griefing and people who defend that kind of crap are definitely mentally ill.
    Careful, he might call you a snowflake. He's tough like that.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Why don't you just show him? You already live the part.
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    I think the main take away the few trolls who've really driven the majority of the opposition in this thread need to get through their heads is "It's only a game" is not an unlimited license to be as big of an asshole as possible. 

    As long as your opponents are human a certain level of conduct is expected. The vast majority of people have no issue in sorting out the difference between actions licensed by the competitive nature of a game, and actions that constitute being a straight asshat.

    The fact the difference even needs to be explained to some people shows they lack a natural instinct to understand basic human empathy the way the rest of us do. 
    GdemamiHatefullKyleran[Deleted User]RufusUO
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    Probably Eve.
    You cant promote griefing more than this:



    Contract system is filled with scams
    Main markets filled with spammers and suicide bombers
    People will be your friend for months just to steal your stuff
    Devs have been caught playing and spawning stuff in for their corp
    A game card added that cost real money and can be stolen or destroyed

    I still miss this one and when I retire, I will be back...
    Hatefull
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Lol nobody ever mentioned getting ganked in a friggin' MOBA or being beaten in a fighting game as griefing...

    But hey, let's not let a little thing like logic get in the way!  We got a school of red herrings to fish!


    ARedHerring_edit

    No, you're right... no one mentioned fighting games or MOBA's but my point was the attitude not the game. Hence the "and so on"

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    No, you're right... no one mentioned fighting games or MOBA's but my point was the attitude not the game. Hence the "and so on"
    But no one is taking that attitude.  Or, well, none of the posters I've agreed with, nor myself.  There is a difference.

    image
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    No, you're right... no one mentioned fighting games or MOBA's but my point was the attitude not the game. Hence the "and so on"
    But no one is taking that attitude.  Or, well, none of the posters I've agreed with, nor myself.  There is a difference.
    ...

    I misunderstand you. What does this have to do with you or the posters you agreed with?

    Your comment lost me.

    image
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    laserit said:
    Gdemami said:
    lahnmir said:


    Oooo...story-time. I have a story too.

    My uncle who lived in Canada had to wait 4 1/2 months for medical care for his condition.

    Actually he technically only had to wait 2 months because he died. That didn't stop them from sending him an appointment reminder a couple of months later however. I'm sure my aunt appreciated the notice.

    Nice bang-up awesome health care system you got going. If he was in the US he would be alive today.
    In my country we laugh at how bad both the Canadian AND US healthcare ystem are. Then again, I live in The Netherlands where we have some of the  best care in the world, in 2015 we actually had THE best. So now that we are done measuring healthcare peens and sharing stories, could you take it down a notch? He shared a story, sorry you had a different experience, no need to act like that.

    postlarval said:


    Well, that's probably because you take responsibility for yourself, how you choose to have fun, what you chose to do, etc.

    Seems the average MMO gamer these days is a whining, entitled victim. It's never their fault. It's always someone else that's to blame for everything that happens to them.
    And what a ridiculous statement. If someone else prevents you from doing anything, how in ANY way is that the your fault? If someone does something to you you can in no way prevent and prevents you from doing anything at all, how can you choose to have fun or do something else? There is no one else to blame, grievers have victims, apparently you don't have a clue what a griever is or you just haven't read the thread at all.

    The one whining and feeling entitled is you. Whining about how bad behavior is being looked down upon and entitled because you think your morally bankrupt play style should be accepted for what it is and people have no right to call you out on it and call you a jerk. Go play in your empty OWPVP game all normal players left because of the toxicity, or isn't that what has happened to all cough*good*cough OWPVP games out there?

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    There is toxicity in all MMO's because humans play them. Playing a PvE MMO doesn't mean you have a heightened sense of morality, it just means the MMO has strict barriers preventing humans from doing "what humans do".

    I'm not oblivious to the problems that OWpvp MMO's have however, if i'm going to continue to play them I can't pretend like calling someone an as$hole is going to get my stuff back. I know as$holes exist so i'm extra careful when i'm out & about. It requires extra work/attention which is why some players decide to aviod these type of games entirely.

    OWpvp games are extremely competitive and not all players are good sports, so i'll never expect a OWpvp game to have as many players as a PvE one. Humans take the path of least resistance... so it only natural for a PvE to have more players. Even if there were a good OWpvp game that was developed to perfection but it was still full loot upon death how many more players would play this game?
    lahnmir

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    No, you're right... no one mentioned fighting games or MOBA's but my point was the attitude not the game. Hence the "and so on"
    But no one is taking that attitude.  Or, well, none of the posters I've agreed with, nor myself.  There is a difference.
    ...

    I misunderstand you. What does this have to do with you or the posters you agreed with?

    Your comment lost me.
    Unless I misread your post, you were implying that the attitude taken against griefers is the same attitude taken when beaten in a fighting game or ganked in a MOBA.  But that isn't true.  Which is something me and many others have been pointing out for pages now.
    HatefullGdemami

    image
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    No, you're right... no one mentioned fighting games or MOBA's but my point was the attitude not the game. Hence the "and so on"
    But no one is taking that attitude.  Or, well, none of the posters I've agreed with, nor myself.  There is a difference.
    ...

    I misunderstand you. What does this have to do with you or the posters you agreed with?

    Your comment lost me.
    Unless I misread your post, you were implying that the attitude taken against griefers is the same attitude taken when beaten in a fighting game or ganked in a MOBA.  But that isn't true.  Which is something me and many others have been pointing out for pages now.
    Thank you for clarifying. I made a statement regarding my own attitude when something unfortunate happens in any game.

    I'v been playing OWpvp long enough to know how to mitigate unpleasant situations like getting griefed ect... so if it does happen, it's more of a"How did I let this happen?" rather than a"This person is doing this to me"




    GdemamiMadFrenchie

    image
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    While my own attitude at losing is a desire to get stronger and win again next time, I still realize that isn't the attitude everyone takes. I love PvP enough to endure some beatings to get to the point I am dishing them out. Not everyone does. Most people don't.

    What I utterly reject though is the premise all griefers give that "Those people aren't cut out for these games. We are driving the weak from our community to make them stronger."

    Too often they are driving everyone from their community. And then the community dies. Part of this lies on developers to lower stat based disparity and better protect those who are still learning the game. A large part of this falls on us, and the fact so many of us are more upset about "carebears" then the griefers that drive the carebear attitudes.

    People have the screeching knee-jerk reaction they do when they hear PvP because they remember getting camped by people they have no chance to resist all too well.
    KyleranlahnmirGdemami[Deleted User]ConstantineMerusGeneral-ZodMadFrenchieRufusUO
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,041
    Eldurian said:
    While my own attitude at losing is a desire to get stronger and win again next time, I still realize that isn't the attitude everyone takes. I love PvP enough to endure some beatings to get to the point I am dishing them out. Not everyone does. Most people don't.

    What I utterly reject though is the premise all griefers give that "Those people aren't cut out for these games. We are driving the weak from our community to make them stronger."

    Too often they are driving everyone from their community. And then the community dies. Part of this lies on developers to lower stat based disparity and better protect those who are still learning the game. A large part of this falls on us, and the fact so many of us are more upset about "carebears" then the griefers that drive the carebear attitudes.

    People have the screeching knee-jerk reaction they do when they hear PvP because they remember getting camped by people they have no chance to resist all too well.
    Couldn't agree more. Now to patiently wait till you get called a snowflake for not seeing everything in black and white. The 'you're not with us so you are against us' attitude in this thread is staggering. But whatever, well said and I fully agree.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Gdemami[Deleted User]Kyleran
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Eldurian said:
    While my own attitude at losing is a desire to get stronger and win again next time, I still realize that isn't the attitude everyone takes. I love PvP enough to endure some beatings to get to the point I am dishing them out. Not everyone does. Most people don't.

    What I utterly reject though is the premise all griefers give that "Those people aren't cut out for these games. We are driving the weak from our community to make them stronger."

    Too often they are driving everyone from their community. And then the community dies. Part of this lies on developers to lower stat based disparity and better protect those who are still learning the game. A large part of this falls on us, and the fact so many of us are more upset about "carebears" then the griefers that drive the carebear attitudes.

    People have the screeching knee-jerk reaction they do when they hear PvP because they remember getting camped by people they have no chance to resist all too well.
    While I agree with your comment, saying that the entire community leaves due to griefing is a bit of an overstatement. Me personally, I would place poor design and power disparity between new and veteran players at the top of the "reasons why I left" list. Frankly, I don't think some of these OWpvp games would keep their players even if the PvP aspect was removed entirely. Anybody down to play a PvE Darkfall... No?!, why not? 

    I think we can all agree that griefing is a problem and the main reason why players who are new to PvP won't play but telling griefers to stop griefing is like telling people to stop being as$holes. I would much rather teach the players new to PvP griefing-prevention methods. This way they can still have fun regardless of that small percentage of the community that are jerks. Because you can design a good game but you can't stop people from being jerks.

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,662
    edited September 2017
    Eldurian said:
    While my own attitude at losing is a desire to get stronger and win again next time, I still realize that isn't the attitude everyone takes. I love PvP enough to endure some beatings to get to the point I am dishing them out. Not everyone does. Most people don't.

    What I utterly reject though is the premise all griefers give that "Those people aren't cut out for these games. We are driving the weak from our community to make them stronger."

    Too often they are driving everyone from their community. And then the community dies. Part of this lies on developers to lower stat based disparity and better protect those who are still learning the game. A large part of this falls on us, and the fact so many of us are more upset about "carebears" then the griefers that drive the carebear attitudes.

    People have the screeching knee-jerk reaction they do when they hear PvP because they remember getting camped by people they have no chance to resist all too well.
    While I agree with your comment, saying that the entire community leaves due to griefing is a bit of an overstatement. Me personally, I would place poor design and power disparity between new and veteran players at the top of the "reasons why I left" list. Frankly, I don't think some of these OWpvp games would keep their players even if the PvP aspect was removed entirely. Anybody down to play a PvE Darkfall... No?!, why not? 

    I think we can all agree that griefing is a problem and the main reason why players who are new to PvP won't play but telling griefers to stop griefing is like telling people to stop being as$holes. I would much rather teach the players new to PvP griefing-prevention methods. This way they can still have fun regardless of that small percentage of the community that are jerks. Because you can design a good game but you can't stop people from being jerks.
    I would have played DF if they had put in EVE like restrictions which give players some control on the amount of risk they are willing to take on.

    I don't  believe an open world FFA PVP game can retain a strong player base for long no matter how well its designed (the days of Darktide are long past) unless perhaps if you take away most of the power disparity (aka progression) which seems to be contadictiry to one of the core pillars of MMORPGs.





    MadFrenchie

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,662
    Talonsin said:
    Probably Eve.
    You cant promote griefing more than this:



    Contract system is filled with scams
    Main markets filled with spammers and suicide bombers
    People will be your friend for months just to steal your stuff
    Devs have been caught playing and spawning stuff in for their corp
    A game card added that cost real money and can be stolen or destroyed

    I still miss this one and when I retire, I will be back...
    While I do admit there are a few places in EVE where some griefing is possible, I don't consider any of the things you listed above as falling into that categoery.

    I love EVE for providing players the freedom to be the villian, even though I never play it as one.

    EVE is actually better for its pirates,  marauding empires and yes, even for its "Goons," at least IMO.


    immodium

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Eldurian said:

    As long as your opponents are human a certain level of conduct is expected. The vast majority of people have no issue in sorting out the difference between actions licensed by the competitive nature of a game, and actions that constitute being a straight asshat.

    The fact the difference even needs to be explained to some people shows they lack a natural instinct to understand basic human empathy the way the rest of us do. 
    May be they just don't care, instead of not knowing. Why would anyone listen to you if they enjoy being a asshat?

    After all, there is no consequences, right? 

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,157
    Here is the reason why Smite hits my biggest list of Griefing allowed games along with evidence although it appears Hi-Rez employee have two different defintions.

    1.) Basically in smite discored which is located at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/467763/www.redit.com/r/smite

    I asked a question if harassing players in chat threatening to report one another just because a new player is bad at the game is report worthy, I had a Hi-Rez emploee come out and tell me No, that Hi-Rez will not ban a person for harassing another player by the means of solicting reports on one another.

    Meanwhile "League OF Legends" for example will punish a player if they threaten to report another user or harassment chat solicting reports, its okay to report a toxic player or someone you feel is feeding in any MOBA, but its not okay to disrupt the chat in an on-going game for example because a player is new "making them feel unwelcome" and disrupting game play because that player might just press tab & mute everyone or turn off chat entirely resulting in a loss of the game for 3 or 4 other players who are trying to win and your in a game bitching at a new player.

    https://imgur.com/a/ElhyE The evidenice right here.

    However upon questioning a 7 day suspension because of getting reported by toxic trolls in smite, Hi-Rez got back to me and told me that its not okay for people to do this kind of harassment as seen here. 

    https://imgur.com/a/Y4dRI/

    2.) Getting banned for discord for no good reason, on the day that Vivox was released I was new in the discord and in off topic section I believe it was talked about how "Vivox is not a secure app" and how I could easily hack it by obtaining IP address of all users something among these lines, without any warning or discussion a so called Moderator, I can't find out their name bans my account the ban for that was reversed, but still Moderators that don't know what they are doing or have any knowledge in any filed they likely have no real education in Real Life, so I posted it on the smite reddit currently with like 60 or so up-votes.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Smite/comments/6wqxsu/is_vivox_secure/

    The problem with Vivox is that users in games can load up any IP logging program and obtain persons IP addresses this can be used for malicious purposes such as DDOS a user or kicking people out of their smite games aka if a person gets kicked from so many games they would get banned for leaving the game from Smite, Also no one was notified about this in the EULA or user agreement / privacy policy.

    3.) Yesterday late night someone posted a "somewhat Lwed looking image" in Discord which looked well, like a rear end on the smite app itself, but after looking at it it turned out to be a characters Arm-Pit I believe from streetfighter, needless to say I posted a response back to that in the off topic selection, and Immediately get banned without warning for a 2nd time, one of the moderators tells me I am testing the rules and it will not be lifted, so question rather is why the guy above me doesn't get banned for posting a so called somewhat NSFW picture, although neither of them were actually lwed images just a couple of things posted in fun you can click here to see the evidence its completely innocent but in the long run looks like its not.
    https://imgur.com/a/Dzjz2

    4.) After that I logged into discord with a different IP address to discover that one of the main moderators of the smite discord actually only temporary bans users for telling others in the discord "Kill Yourself" which is a popular thing thrown around in MOBA's to Grief team-mates often because they are new or lack skill which isn't nice at all, a person doing this will get a temporary suspension, but someone like me who posts a image joking around as a reply to someone else gets a immediately life ban?
    https://imgur.com/a/cJVst

    This is a copy of their rules in smite which only says "No NSFW" images which is defined as acts of violence, or actual nudity for example, not a illusion image or joke image as defined by the people posting these.
    https://imgur.com/a/vSArS

    This is my most recent griefer experience, where a Hi-Rez employee themselves says its okay to harassment others, and where moderators clearly abuse the rights they are granted immediately banning people off a server simply because they make a mistake or they feel a rule has been violated but don't actually warn the individual.

    I play MMORPG games still but mostly sticking to ESO, although currently MOBA, are the worst experience I see when it comes to Griefing, and Smite is one of the games where new players are feeling more and more unwelcome.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Smite/comments/6zqf7c/smites_community_is_not_newbie_friendly/
    ^ I am not sure but that may have been censored by the moderators of smite reddit?
    GdemamiKyleran
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,772
    I think EvE really no? It's pretty unforgiving about that also, it just happens, you cry a lot, many people rage-quit, others come and take their place, a loop that continues on going.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited September 2017
    So EVE has done one thing that actually helps with the griefing of newbs a bit even if most people won't tell you how to do it.

    The EVE killright system gives you rights to kill people who destroy your ships in highsec or pod you in lowsec. You can also set the kill rights so other people can activate them. This does little to dissuade people who target newbs but there is a major upside.

    When you make killrights available to others you can set a price. Common practice if you set a killright available to everyone is for the person you put the killright on to have an alt buy it in order to clear it out.

    The cool part is you can set a killright as high as about 10mil ISK and expect them to clear it. When they do, you get what they paid to clear it. So newbs flying ships worth less than 10mil (or ships that don't cost after 10 mil after factoring insurance) can recoupe their losses by selling killrights. So that doesn't mean that if you go mining in lowsec in a venture and forget to watch local you won't get killed and podded by some numbnut in a T3 cruiser.

    But it does mean you can sell him his own killright for more than your ship was worth, and buy a new one + profit.
    GdemamiRufusUO
  • LerxstLerxst Member UncommonPosts: 648
    Any game where open, full loot PvP exists and is not policed, discouraged or penalized by any design in the game, whether it be a "city guard" system, bounty system, etc.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Lerxst said:
    Any game where open, full loot PvP exists and is not policed, discouraged or penalized by any design in the game, whether it be a "city guard" system, bounty system, etc.


    and you will have no one to blame if you get griefed in such a game, since you have a choice to play something else.
    Kyleran
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Lerxst said:
    Any game where open, full loot PvP exists and is not policed, discouraged or penalized by any design in the game, whether it be a "city guard" system, bounty system, etc.
    and you will have no one to blame if you get griefed in such a game, since you have a choice to play something else.
    And those of us who enjoy such games need to remember that if we tolerate community members who go around ganking all our newbs most of them WILL play something else.
    [Deleted User]VengeSunsoar
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Eldurian said:
    Lerxst said:
    Any game where open, full loot PvP exists and is not policed, discouraged or penalized by any design in the game, whether it be a "city guard" system, bounty system, etc.
    and you will have no one to blame if you get griefed in such a game, since you have a choice to play something else.
    And those of us who enjoy such games need to remember that if we tolerate community members who go around ganking all our newbs most of them WILL play something else.

    Of course. That is, if you are willing to spend your time to help the newbies against griefers. Now that sounds a lot of work to me .. it is much easier just to play some other games.

    But if that is your cup of tea, and assuming there are still newbies around, more power to you. One question though .. did any of those newbies "grow up" and become a griefer? That would be ironic, would it?
Sign In or Register to comment.