Originally posted by Xiaoki GW2 is a bad example because some of the Living Story events have had an impact on the game world but these events were planned scripted events.
A "Living Breathing" world would not have scripted events on timers. Things would just happen.
EQN is much more in line with what a "Living Breathing" world should be. Of you hunt
I think personally that EQN will just be another example of the mechanics used in GW2, another variation in effect of the 'seemingly' random scripted events that follow a fairly linear path. Of course until SOE actually manage to create the thing we won't know for sure, but early indications do seem to point in that direction, either way the ephemeral nature of those 'scripted events' is not really in question so i don't think its really representative of an 'ideal' for candidacy of a 'living breathing world'. If anything, based on previous games at least, a 'living breathing world' is not so much 'designed' as something that occurs under the right conditions, however only sandbox games so far appear to have the best 'possibility' of bringing those 'conditions' together.
Originally posted by flizzer When people use this term they are really talking about nostalgia and the game they played when they were younger and had so much more free time. Nostalgia is a wonderful drug that distorts reality.
What game are you talking about?
EQ certainly wasn't "living and breathing" with slow static spawn, and camping.
The term living breathing world refers to "PLAYERS" actively engaged in the world.. It has nothing to do with NPC and mobs.. When you venture out and see no one, the cities seem void of players, people consider the game world dead.. However, when you bump into others frequently, or group up with them while adventuring, and the cities are robust with active players chatting, or doing whatever brings them to the city.. That is a living breathing world..
Closest to have it from still existing one are propably:
WURM
EVE
but they sell gold for $, so kinda undermine 'living breathing world' at same time.
In 1997-1999 Ultima Online also could've been used as example of 'living breathing mmo' by standards from 90s. UO was very simplistic, even primitive in many regards + had A LOT conceptual downsides - so by todays standard I would not call it 'living breathing mmo' anymore.
WoW of GW2 as example of 'living breathing world' is an absurd. WoW - I have no idea why would anyone call it 'living breathing world'. GW2 - sorry simple scripted events on loop - cannot be called 'living breathing world'.
The term living breathing world refers to "PLAYERS" actively engaged in the world.. It has nothing to do with NPC and mobs.. When you venture out and see no one, the cities seem void of players, people consider the game world dead.. However, when you bump into others frequently, or group up with them while adventuring, and the cities are robust with active players chatting, or doing whatever brings them to the city.. That is a living breathing world..
There is more to a living breathing world then seeing other players run by. Most mmo's are basically single player games. You only see other players while they are playing the same single player content like you. I don't get much thrill out of that.
like others have said, SWG was a perfect example of a living breating world - a open sandbox game with so many choices of things to do - with so many systems and activities outside of the scope of the "wow generation" norm
a game where not only the game provides many things to do, but where the community can and often does do things outside of the box too, creating a world not just designed to be experienced (themepark) but also inviting and exciting to add, change and influence (sandbox)
So it isnt just down to the game itself but the community that inhabits that world also matters but getting both together at the same time is a rare but awesome thing
The term living breathing world refers to "PLAYERS" actively engaged in the world.. It has nothing to do with NPC and mobs.. When you venture out and see no one, the cities seem void of players, people consider the game world dead.. However, when you bump into others frequently, or group up with them while adventuring, and the cities are robust with active players chatting, or doing whatever brings them to the city.. That is a living breathing world..
There is more to a living breathing world then seeing other players run by. Most mmo's are basically single player games. You only see other players while they are playing the same single player content like you. I don't get much thrill out of that.
And where did I say it ONLY is seeing others? Player INTERACTION is the key.. I don't care if you're chatting, selling, buying, buffing, etc etc.. Being social is what makes it a living breathing world.. IMO.. Without it, you are just playing a single player console game..
A living breathing world is partly a world that is not centered around the character. it is also more immersive to the character there are seasons it can be hot or cold you can get hungry or thirsty usualy where you gain penalties but not actually die you get woulds or cripples but but heal quickly or ways to remove them. the best way to describe it is if the player were pulled into another universial dimention something like (avatar). a game might have a great start this way the great escape to this new world. you might start out with a small pack of items but all your knowledge of the new world is unknown and the NPC or even pcs interact with you as such and you make friends or enemies, get thrown in jail, there are disease and famines there are trinary encounters like robbers or gobblins as well as some semi static locations and usually the world is BIG days or weeks walking and if there are oceans then there are ways to travel by water crafts are important for social or morale or rumors and information. and there is work besides adventuring.
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
I would say games where you had to interact with the players more. In Anarchy Online you had to ask other players for buffs to put on armor and weapons, buffs to travel. You met people in the game and went out and killed some stuff to lvl.
You had to sell your loot yourself. It's all hard work and glad games are not like that anymore.
These days you never have to interact with anyone to do normal stuff like putting on a weapon, and you get ported into a group.
WoW of GW2 as example of 'living breathing world' is an absurd. WoW - I have no idea why would anyone call it 'living breathing world'. GW2 - sorry simple scripted events on loop - cannot be called 'living breathing world'.
It's tendency by people to just shout out the name of their favorite MMOs every time someone asks "What MMO has X positive quality?"
"What MMO has the best graphics?" "WoW!!!" "What MMO is a living breathing world?" "WOW!!!" "What MMO has the best storyline?" "WOW!!!"
When people use this term they are really talking about nostalgia and the game they played when they were younger and had so much more free time. Nostalgia is a wonderful drug that distorts reality.
So tired of this absurd argument. First of all, who has ever referred to any old school MMO as having a living world? The best thing about old school MMOs was the sense of community, never heard "living world" to describe them.
And stop telling us that we only prefer the first gen MMOs because of nostalgia, it is insulting to my intelligence. I know wtf I like and why I like it.
People are probably referring to their first mmo. The nostalgia makes that mmo seem amazing. When in reality it was what they would call an on rails theme park experience. People refer to every mmo as a theme park and use the term sandbox as the holy grail. So far I haven't come across which feels these so called criteria. I guess the most amusing is when you read people hate what they call theme parks and say that EQ was so much better even though EQ fits their criteria for an on rails theme park experience lol.
For the OP, I would say Ultima Online Catskills server. We had so many awesome RP guild, true strict always in character Rp guilds. It really made the world feel alive. We even had orc guilds that would wear the same armor as the NPC orcs despite it being crappy, they also hung out in the orc forts around the world. Always stayed in character, had some good fights with them even though they were easy to kill. The world did feel alive because the community made it that way.
A living breathing world would be GW2 as you work your way through the story you get promoted and hear the towns folk talking about what has happened in the world. You also do minor investigations like finding out what happened to your parents or your sister. ESO does the same, you end up running into NPC's who have heard of your exploits and comment on them from time to time. Or any game where you build up trust or hate with different NPC factions like in WoW. So basically building a reputation in the game world.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
A really old necro. But not record-setting, at least for this site.
To me, a living, breathing world has to react to the actions of the character. At its core, this means that the spawn rate (introduction of new creatures into the environment) needs to respond to activity on the server. Hunt a lot of predators, the herbivores will fill the eco-system. Kill all the prey, and the predators will move away looking for food. To date, the only MMORPG that I've played that incorporated this concept has been Ryzom.
Ryzom even had changes in mat harvesting for day/night, sun/rain and seasonal variations. Some mats only dropped on rainy fall nights. The only problem is that this variation was also coupled with difficulty of the area. It really serious dedication to harvest the special stuff from the dangerous places. Casual craftsmen need not apply.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
UO , Everquest, DAOC , AC, AO , Eve ........These are some of the best examples , all these games were designed to cultivate community activity , They all have dome tremendous jobs of wrapping the LOre/Classes/Crafting and pve and pvp experience into a cohesive believeable world .. Its not just a number its a world expereince that was delivered ..
Originally posted by fardreamer vanilla ultima online.
+1 You nailed it.
It didn't have a very long life though did it.
How long can a living breathing world last? Of those that have existed, how many are still left? What's the average lifespan for one?
UO , Everquest, DAOC , AC, AO , Eve and Runescape all of these are left and all the longest running MMOs out for a reason , while many others that have opened much later have shutterd up.. There longevity stands as a testimate to there great worlds ...
And as far as Vanilla UO not lasting long, 20 years is a good run as you can still play Siege Perilous server which is orginal rule set(basically) Skill gains are different , Its actually a little harder than Vanilla only the Hardcore need apply
When people use this term they are really talking about nostalgia and the game they played when they were younger and had so much more free time. Nostalgia is a wonderful drug that distorts reality.
So tired of this absurd argument. First of all, who has ever referred to any old school MMO as having a living world? The best thing about old school MMOs was the sense of community, never heard "living world" to describe them.
And stop telling us that we only prefer the first gen MMOs because of nostalgia, it is insulting to my intelligence. I know wtf I like and why I like it.
Ultima Online's depth of features has nothing to do with nostalgia. No game has come close despite huge leaps in technology, other than in flashier graphics. It's pretty pathetic really.
Originally posted by fardreamer vanilla ultima online.
+1 You nailed it.
It didn't have a very long life though did it.
How long can a living breathing world last? Of those that have existed, how many are still left? What's the average lifespan for one?
UO , Everquest, DAOC , AC, AO , Eve and Runescape all of these are left and all the longest running MMOs out for a reason , while many others that have opened much later have shutterd up.. There longevity stands as a testimate to there great worlds ...
And as far as Vanilla UO not lasting long, 20 years is a good run as you can still play Siege Perilous server which is orginal rule set(basically) Skill gains are different , Its actually a little harder than Vanilla only the Hardcore need apply
That's not what I'm talking about. Fardreamer said "vanilla ultima online" and Xzen +1'd. I pointed out that the vanilla living world that was UO didn't last that long before it changed.
One of the loudest complaints from the old school mmo vets is that these first gen games are trashy shadows of their former selves. Is that not true?
The OP asked for current examples. Someone pointed out a past example. Lots of people pointed out past examples. Do the current games fit the bill and qualify or don't they?
More older (first gen) games closed than survived. A handful of titles doesn't prove the design point. A lot of first gen designs were crude and unpopular. Turns out fixing and improving on them is hard because we all like different things.
Each one of those games is currently available and provides more of a Living Breathing World than any other games avavilble in there current and former versions ..
AC closed this year , aside from that All the first Gen games i listed are availble ...Which are all the closed ones , and im not implying small unknown Titles ..
UO,Everquest,AO,DAOC ,Runescape and AC These are the first gen titles of any note all but AC are there to play ..
Originally posted by fardreamer vanilla ultima online.
+1 You nailed it.
It didn't have a very long life though did it.
How long can a living breathing world last? Of those that have existed, how many are still left? What's the average lifespan for one?
UO , Everquest, DAOC , AC, AO , Eve and Runescape all of these are left and all the longest running MMOs out for a reason , while many others that have opened much later have shutterd up.. There longevity stands as a testimate to there great worlds ...
And as far as Vanilla UO not lasting long, 20 years is a good run as you can still play Siege Perilous server which is orginal rule set(basically) Skill gains are different , Its actually a little harder than Vanilla only the Hardcore need apply
That's not what I'm talking about. Fardreamer said "vanilla ultima online" and Xzen +1'd. I pointed out that the vanilla living world that was UO didn't last that long before it changed.
One of the loudest complaints from the old school mmo vets is that these first gen games are trashy shadows of their former selves. Is that not true?
The OP asked for current examples. Someone pointed out a past example. Lots of people pointed out past examples. Do the current games fit the bill and qualify or don't they?
More older (first gen) games closed than survived. A handful of titles doesn't prove the design point. A lot of first gen designs were crude and unpopular. Turns out fixing and improving on them is hard because we all like different things.
Each one of those games is currently available and provides more of a Living Breathing World than any other games avavilble in there current and former versions ..
AC closed this year , aside from that All the first Gen games i listed are availble ...Which are all the closed ones , and im not implying small unknown Titles ..
UO,Everquest,AO,DAOC ,Runescape and AC These are the first gen titles of any note all but AC are there to play ..
Quite some assertions in that post and some I agree with. The people that consider the vanilla experience the only true or best living world experience don't agree with us. Thus, I responded that their view of what makes a living world was very short lived.
The other thing that baffles me is early mmos weren't often, if ever, commonly referred to or described as living worlds. I don't think they were. I remember MMO gamers being interested in quality online communities not living world simulations. If "living worlds" were really in demand wouldn't there be more of them?
So only the titles on your list are of any note... to you. I think newer games are better and have more to offer. If they were really that good compared to current offerings then people would play those instead wouldn't they.
Everyones experience will differ of course Torv , mine all those games i go back to or currently play because all the newer games dont offer for ex.. Even 1/3 the player activities in a game like UO ..
Well , i also think the problem for many players and why these games are Niche now .. Is the simple fact is that they take dedication , have a higher learning curve , and truly require social interaction .. Todays players want instant gratification , jump in easy play , and the ability to socialize as little as possible , Hence why they arent as popular now ..
Many of todays gamers , think they want that Living World Experrience till they Experience it , then run back to one of these newer games that offer little resitance for them and there play style
and as a side note .. Origin System slogan for UO was " We Create Worlds" and EQ "Your in Our World" etc ..
so these games were created and promoted with that in mind
Before I read any other post I thought Ryzom. Maybe Kenshi if I was stretching to look for something else. I don't think anything really exists that is a living breathing world MMO other than Ryzom. WoW phasing, nope, GW2 dynamic events, nope.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Depending on how you apply the definition of "Living breathing world" I think most sandboxes would fall within it. When it's broad enough to cover WoW then it literally covers everything. Particularly given most MMOs are based on WoW.
In the narrowest definition I would say the fact that trolls will bash through your fence and eat your livestock, wolves will kill chickens they can find, trees grow naturally on their own and are spread by other trees of the same type, unused mines and roads collapse over time etc. would make Wurm the truest "Living breathing world" I have played.
Comments
I think personally that EQN will just be another example of the mechanics used in GW2, another variation in effect of the 'seemingly' random scripted events that follow a fairly linear path. Of course until SOE actually manage to create the thing we won't know for sure, but early indications do seem to point in that direction, either way the ephemeral nature of those 'scripted events' is not really in question so i don't think its really representative of an 'ideal' for candidacy of a 'living breathing world'. If anything, based on previous games at least, a 'living breathing world' is not so much 'designed' as something that occurs under the right conditions, however only sandbox games so far appear to have the best 'possibility' of bringing those 'conditions' together.
The term living breathing world refers to "PLAYERS" actively engaged in the world.. It has nothing to do with NPC and mobs.. When you venture out and see no one, the cities seem void of players, people consider the game world dead.. However, when you bump into others frequently, or group up with them while adventuring, and the cities are robust with active players chatting, or doing whatever brings them to the city.. That is a living breathing world..
None of MMORPGs have 'living breathing world'
Closest to have it from still existing one are propably:
WURM
EVE
but they sell gold for $, so kinda undermine 'living breathing world' at same time.
In 1997-1999 Ultima Online also could've been used as example of 'living breathing mmo' by standards from 90s. UO was very simplistic, even primitive in many regards + had A LOT conceptual downsides - so by todays standard I would not call it 'living breathing mmo' anymore.
WoW of GW2 as example of 'living breathing world' is an absurd. WoW - I have no idea why would anyone call it 'living breathing world'. GW2 - sorry simple scripted events on loop - cannot be called 'living breathing world'.
There is more to a living breathing world then seeing other players run by. Most mmo's are basically single player games. You only see other players while they are playing the same single player content like you. I don't get much thrill out of that.
like others have said, SWG was a perfect example of a living breating world - a open sandbox game with so many choices of things to do - with so many systems and activities outside of the scope of the "wow generation" norm
a game where not only the game provides many things to do, but where the community can and often does do things outside of the box too, creating a world not just designed to be experienced (themepark) but also inviting and exciting to add, change and influence (sandbox)
So it isnt just down to the game itself but the community that inhabits that world also matters but getting both together at the same time is a rare but awesome thing
And where did I say it ONLY is seeing others? Player INTERACTION is the key.. I don't care if you're chatting, selling, buying, buffing, etc etc.. Being social is what makes it a living breathing world.. IMO.. Without it, you are just playing a single player console game..
a game might have a great start this way the great escape to this new world.
you might start out with a small pack of items but all your knowledge of the new world is unknown and the NPC or even pcs interact with you as such and you make friends or enemies, get thrown in jail, there are disease and famines there are trinary encounters like robbers or gobblins as well as some semi static locations and usually the world is BIG days or weeks walking and if there are oceans then there are ways to travel by water crafts are important for social or morale or rumors and information. and there is work besides adventuring.
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
You had to sell your loot yourself. It's all hard work and glad games are not like that anymore.
These days you never have to interact with anyone to do normal stuff like putting on a weapon, and you get ported into a group.
"What MMO has the best graphics?" "WoW!!!"
"What MMO is a living breathing world?" "WOW!!!"
"What MMO has the best storyline?" "WOW!!!"
So tired of this absurd argument. First of all, who has ever referred to any old school MMO as having a living world? The best thing about old school MMOs was the sense of community, never heard "living world" to describe them.
And stop telling us that we only prefer the first gen MMOs because of nostalgia, it is insulting to my intelligence. I know wtf I like and why I like it.
See my last post, for you as well.
MAGA
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
To me, a living, breathing world has to react to the actions of the character. At its core, this means that the spawn rate (introduction of new creatures into the environment) needs to respond to activity on the server. Hunt a lot of predators, the herbivores will fill the eco-system. Kill all the prey, and the predators will move away looking for food. To date, the only MMORPG that I've played that incorporated this concept has been Ryzom.
Ryzom even had changes in mat harvesting for day/night, sun/rain and seasonal variations. Some mats only dropped on rainy fall nights. The only problem is that this variation was also coupled with difficulty of the area. It really serious dedication to harvest the special stuff from the dangerous places. Casual craftsmen need not apply.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
There longevity stands as a testimate to there great worlds ...
And as far as Vanilla UO not lasting long, 20 years is a good run as you can still play Siege Perilous server which is orginal rule set(basically) Skill gains are different , Its actually a little harder than Vanilla only the Hardcore need apply
AC closed this year , aside from that All the first Gen games i listed are availble ...Which are all the closed ones , and im not implying small unknown Titles ..
UO,Everquest,AO,DAOC ,Runescape and AC These are the first gen titles of any note all but AC are there to play ..
Well , i also think the problem for many players and why these games are Niche now ..
Is the simple fact is that they take dedication , have a higher learning curve , and truly require social interaction .. Todays players want instant gratification , jump in easy play , and the ability to socialize as little as possible , Hence why they arent as popular now ..
Many of todays gamers , think they want that Living World Experrience till they Experience it , then run back to one of these newer games that offer little resitance for them and there play style
and as a side note .. Origin System slogan for UO was " We Create Worlds"
and EQ "Your in Our World" etc ..
so these games were created and promoted with that in mind
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In the narrowest definition I would say the fact that trolls will bash through your fence and eat your livestock, wolves will kill chickens they can find, trees grow naturally on their own and are spread by other trees of the same type, unused mines and roads collapse over time etc. would make Wurm the truest "Living breathing world" I have played.