Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Which MMO most promoted griefing?

11213141618

Comments

  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610
    This thread delivers.

    >Wannabe psychologists diagnose "griefing" as mental illness

    TBH I don't believe they can be that naive to believe that.

    If you take the same logic and apply it to people being nice in video games, or just human interaction online in general.

    "This person is being nice to me, ergo they must be nice in real life." Is nonsense.
    Hatefull

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    lahnmir said:
    As this is still going I was thinking about a real world example of doing things that are allowed and ok yet can absolutely destroy someones life.

    I found one, its called stalking. Stalkers just appear in the same social space as the victim. They can hang out in front of their house all day and take pictures that coincidentally have the victim on them. They can gather information on the victim or send them the nicest letters and emails. Nothing special on its own, some things nice even but the victim feels horrible in the end. Why?

    Because they are defenseless
    Because the intention shines through
    Because the stalker doesn't know when to stop
    Because the stalker can do it unpunished and knows it
    Because it interferes and disrupts their every day business

    ALL these points apply to grievers too. Now for the million dollar question: How do people in Real Life think about stalkers? Are they ok with it, are these normal people? Is it an acceptable thing to do or is there something wrong in their heads?

    Stalker victims can't log out, don't get me wrong, i know that. But every motive and result is the same. The big problem is that most stalkers, even when arrested and/or punished, can't see what they are doing wrong and this goes for grievers too, this is on the stalker/griever though and NOT on their victims.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where do you live that stalking is allowed and ok? It's a felony where I am.

    laserit said:
    Good examples of when spawn camping is not griefing.

    Example of griefing with spawn camping

    Johnny is bored, he's a level 60. Johnny gets his kicks going to the level 20-30 zone, picking a a low level victim, killing them and spawn camping them,  over and over and over until they get fed up and log out.

    He then moves on to his next victim.
    Still not clearly griefing. As I mentioned previously, some devs see that as intended gameplay. See Crowfall. They not only say it's ok, they tell people who don't like it to wait for tests of less hardcore rulesets.

    If the devs intend for this to be the way the game is played it literally can not be griefing.
    He also undercut his own argument by using only FPSs as examples.


    FPSs are focused on skill winning the day.  MMORPGs aren't.  A level 7 Hunter can't headshot a level 60 Shaman and get an instakill.

    Take the spawn camping technique mentioned in Day of Defeat.  If the spawn camping team also had swords and spells that do 10× more damage than the other team, I highly doubt the players would be as accepting of the situation.
    I used FPS games because they're very straight forward and even the people in this thread should be able to see the developers intent.

    As far as damage goes, the defenders have MG42s. They probably do more than 10x the damage of the allied riflemen in the boats.

    The attackers can also use MGs, and the defenders aren't nigh invincible with high level epic gear.  C'mon, I shouldn't have had to point that out.  Don't intentionally leave out information about the game to help your own argument.  Day of Defeat never limited attackers and defenders or their weaponry in such a way.  The server admins could set the class limits.
    Setting up an immobile machinegun on the beach is suicide.

    The defenders are in bunkers a hundred yards away where you can barely see them, and need a sniper rifle to even have a chance of hitting them. Using a sniper rifle in the open is also pretty close to suicide.

    Next excuse?
    Lol, and yet you still intentionally fail to understand.  There's nothing about that situation that's equitable to an MMORPG where a player can achieve stat domination before the fight ever starts.  Stop being willfully ignorant.

    And if you don't think snipers routinely neutralized MG nests in the original DoD by wall sniping, you never played it for any length of time.  All they needed was one piece of cover tall enough to stand behind.
    People on the beach, and especially just spawning in the boats are basically free kills who can't fight back. They remain such until they reach a specified point of advance. In MMO terms, that would be leveling up to a competitive point.

    Snipers were not effective during the initial advance. After the riflemen pushed up and breached the sea wall snipers could camp on the beach and keep the bunkers clear, but during the opening portion of the map they were free kills unless the defenders were hopelessly incompetent. They spawned in full view of the enemy, had a noticeably different model and were an easy target while scoped in. 
    No, it isn't.   Nothing about the FPS example is equal to an MMORPG, and your attempt in this post to equate them with "leveling up to a competitive point" is the most hardcore nonsense I've heard you spout yet.

    Your very specific example itself fails, and you are sticking to it because you know that's about the only specific instance that you can even attempt to equate to an MMORPG.  But it's still utter bullshit.

    I mean yea, it was so easy to own those newbs with that M1 Garand of Holy Hellfire +2, right?
    Gdemami

    image
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,838
    Honestly I think some of you are too sensitive for mmorpgs. 

    Die a thousand times to an NPC that a person designed just to troll you and your buds, but die a few times to a person and you're ready to cry and quit. Smh...
    CaffynatedpostlarvalFlyByKnightGeneral-Zod
    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 753
    lahnmir said:
    As this is still going I was thinking about a real world example of doing things that are allowed and ok yet can absolutely destroy someones life.

    I found one, its called stalking. Stalkers just appear in the same social space as the victim. They can hang out in front of their house all day and take pictures that coincidentally have the victim on them. They can gather information on the victim or send them the nicest letters and emails. Nothing special on its own, some things nice even but the victim feels horrible in the end. Why?

    Because they are defenseless
    Because the intention shines through
    Because the stalker doesn't know when to stop
    Because the stalker can do it unpunished and knows it
    Because it interferes and disrupts their every day business

    ALL these points apply to grievers too. Now for the million dollar question: How do people in Real Life think about stalkers? Are they ok with it, are these normal people? Is it an acceptable thing to do or is there something wrong in their heads?

    Stalker victims can't log out, don't get me wrong, i know that. But every motive and result is the same. The big problem is that most stalkers, even when arrested and/or punished, can't see what they are doing wrong and this goes for grievers too, this is on the stalker/griever though and NOT on their victims.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where do you live that stalking is allowed and ok? It's a felony where I am.

    laserit said:
    Good examples of when spawn camping is not griefing.

    Example of griefing with spawn camping

    Johnny is bored, he's a level 60. Johnny gets his kicks going to the level 20-30 zone, picking a a low level victim, killing them and spawn camping them,  over and over and over until they get fed up and log out.

    He then moves on to his next victim.
    Still not clearly griefing. As I mentioned previously, some devs see that as intended gameplay. See Crowfall. They not only say it's ok, they tell people who don't like it to wait for tests of less hardcore rulesets.

    If the devs intend for this to be the way the game is played it literally can not be griefing.
    He also undercut his own argument by using only FPSs as examples.


    FPSs are focused on skill winning the day.  MMORPGs aren't.  A level 7 Hunter can't headshot a level 60 Shaman and get an instakill.

    Take the spawn camping technique mentioned in Day of Defeat.  If the spawn camping team also had swords and spells that do 10× more damage than the other team, I highly doubt the players would be as accepting of the situation.
    I used FPS games because they're very straight forward and even the people in this thread should be able to see the developers intent.

    As far as damage goes, the defenders have MG42s. They probably do more than 10x the damage of the allied riflemen in the boats.

    The attackers can also use MGs, and the defenders aren't nigh invincible with high level epic gear.  C'mon, I shouldn't have had to point that out.  Don't intentionally leave out information about the game to help your own argument.  Day of Defeat never limited attackers and defenders or their weaponry in such a way.  The server admins could set the class limits.
    Setting up an immobile machinegun on the beach is suicide.

    The defenders are in bunkers a hundred yards away where you can barely see them, and need a sniper rifle to even have a chance of hitting them. Using a sniper rifle in the open is also pretty close to suicide.

    Next excuse?
    Lol, and yet you still intentionally fail to understand.  There's nothing about that situation that's equitable to an MMORPG where a player can achieve stat domination before the fight ever starts.  Stop being willfully ignorant.

    And if you don't think snipers routinely neutralized MG nests in the original DoD by wall sniping, you never played it for any length of time.  All they needed was one piece of cover tall enough to stand behind.
    People on the beach, and especially just spawning in the boats are basically free kills who can't fight back. They remain such until they reach a specified point of advance. In MMO terms, that would be leveling up to a competitive point.

    Snipers were not effective during the initial advance. After the riflemen pushed up and breached the sea wall snipers could camp on the beach and keep the bunkers clear, but during the opening portion of the map they were free kills unless the defenders were hopelessly incompetent. They spawned in full view of the enemy, had a noticeably different model and were an easy target while scoped in. 
    No, it isn't.   Nothing about the FPS example is equal to an MMORPG, and your attempt in this post to equate them with "leveling up to a competitive point" is the most hardcore nonsense I've heard you spout yet.

    Your very specific example itself fails, and you are sticking to it because you know that's about the only specific instance that you can even attempt to equate to an MMORPG.  But it's still utter bullshit.

    I mean yea, it was so easy to own those newbs with that M1 Garand of Holy Hellfire +2, right?
    Planetside is an MMO. Crowfall is an MMO.

    You just ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

    I give up. There's no reasoning with you.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Gdemami said:
    lahnmir said:
    You have no clue what you are talking about, absolutely zero and I don't even know where to start correcting you. It is as if the gardener walked in on a Neuro Science convention and acted like he was one of the attendees thinking he could bluff his way through conversations. I am almost embarresed by how big a fool you are making of yourself right now, almost.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Correcting me? You may start correcting Leon Eisenberg coining ADHD 'mental disorder' and before dying confessing it being a fictitious disease.

    You may even start correcting Allan Frances, DSM IV chair comitee when he openly speaks how ridiculous the manual actualy is:

    Vast majority of those so called 'mental disorders' are lacking any biological markers and are based on more than dubious studies. Psychology/psychiatry is just bogus science...proven again and again.
    But if we don't make up fictitious diseases how will the pharmaceutical industry ever get rich?
    That's not a World issue, it's an American issue.

    You tune in to your news channels and every goddamn commercial is for some drug where the side effects seem worse than the affliction.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited September 2017
    immodium said:
    TBH I don't believe they can be that naive to believe that.
    In that case, you are the one who is being naive...
  • lancerxxlancerxx Member UncommonPosts: 63
    In the words of the great philosopher Rodney King:"Can we all just get along"
    Hatefull
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    laserit said:
    Gdemami said:
    lahnmir said:
    You have no clue what you are talking about, absolutely zero and I don't even know where to start correcting you. It is as if the gardener walked in on a Neuro Science convention and acted like he was one of the attendees thinking he could bluff his way through conversations. I am almost embarresed by how big a fool you are making of yourself right now, almost.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Correcting me? You may start correcting Leon Eisenberg coining ADHD 'mental disorder' and before dying confessing it being a fictitious disease.

    You may even start correcting Allan Frances, DSM IV chair comitee when he openly speaks how ridiculous the manual actualy is:

    Vast majority of those so called 'mental disorders' are lacking any biological markers and are based on more than dubious studies. Psychology/psychiatry is just bogus science...proven again and again.
    But if we don't make up fictitious diseases how will the pharmaceutical industry ever get rich?
    That's not a World issue, it's an American issue.

    You tune in to your news channels and every goddamn commercial is for some drug where the side effects seem worse than the affliction.
    Sorry, but you're right up there in the top five for drug costs. I'd say your drug industry is getting pretty fat and happy as well.

    You take more prescription drugs than we do. Just read any OECD working paper if you need facts. I'll be happy to suggest one. You fill 12 to our 10 per year.

    You also keep your costs down by letting people die waiting for a physician's appointment. Nice cheap solution, eh?

    I'd say Canada has its own set of issues.

    I vaguely remember something about stones and glass houses...


    laseritHatefullIselin
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,662
    Shinami said:
    Stalking is legally defined as an overwhelming obsession against an individual to the point the threat of harm against the targeted individual is perceived. 

    Griefers know: 

    ~Who to target
    ~Where to target 
    ~How to take advantage of the situation
    ~Cover their tracks
    ~Systematically gank players in a zone

    In fact, in every game I've played where griefing was a way of life; I've always been involving in the meetings by top guilds on how to maximize griefing to others outside the company of the guild as a measure to keep players out of the game and to limit the power of any potential player. 

    It was a way of life to gank a dangerous player until one of three things happen: 
    a) The player surrenders and leaves the game
    b) The player surrenders and unconditionally gives his property away
    c) The player surrenders and joins the guild that griefed him, then encourage the player to grief his old guild for failure of protecting him..

    Do I blame the griefers for taking advantage of the situation? 

    No!

    I blame the developers for creating games that promote such conduct, where human nature deals with exploiting any resource capable of winning in these games even if the exploitation deals with the oppression of others. 

    Such games are proof that developers do not playtest their games enough and do not patch accordingly problems in their games. Quality Assurance also fails as one of the jobs that QA has is to foresee problems in the design and make adjustments willingly and offer solution.

    Do I apologize to players who were PKed a thousand times until they surrendered? 
    Not really. 
    Are we to blame? 

    Of course we are, as we planned and executed the plan against the player. 

    Is our execution of the plan legal to the environment and design of the game's rules? 
    Of course it is! 

    Who is to blame? 
    Developer is to blame. 

    What if the Developer Changes their Terms of Service Agreement to eliminate Griefing or Lessen it? 

    I can't sue you for changing your ToS agreement, but I can sue you for targeting out griefers by comparing both agreements directly and proving that the agreement change was done so to specifically target a group of players in an environment coded specifically for such behavior. Then I can make a count for each player who was banned for Griefing prior to the execution of the new agreement and charge the developer two separate counts for each infraction against a player. 

    This has been fought in courts before...and the players have won. 
    Best thing to end such a problem is to make sure the game itself is playtested thoroughly. 

    Worse thing you want are players to Chargeback. ^_^

    Suppose a Developer says "We didn't know this would happen....we did nothing wrong!"
    Sorry, but that does not hold out in court. Developers and Publishers assume all action and damages caused by the behaviors of the clients upon their system under their ToS. "We didn't know" is not accepted. 

    What is a solution to this? 
    Awareness...
    Make it known to everyone what kind of game is being played.
    What kind of developer is creating the game.
    What kind of publisher is running the game. 

    Discourage such systems by refusing to take part in such a system because unlike what real life throws at us, we have the choice on which game we want to play and take part in. Refusal is not going to destroy our economy, it will however force them to go back to their drawing boards and maybe with a flicker of hope, actually make a game worthy of actually playing. 
    You seem to be trying to absolve yourself of responsibility for your actions, yet even if developers permit you to do something, ultimately it is still your choice to do so.

    In the above scenario I would never try to grief anyone as you described, just goes against my personal moral code.

    If you chose to do otherwise that's fine, but don't blame the devs for your personal decision.




    MadFrenchieHatefull

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,662
    Iselin said:
    Rhoklaw said:

    I'm tired of this political correctness filter, so I'm just going to be blunt. People who grief are mentally ill.
    It even has a name: EDD, aka "Empathy Deficit Disorder".
    Empathy Deficit Disorder was a tongue-in-cheek disorder made up to mock people who make up ridiculous disorders that describe completely normal human behavior.



    No, not really:  https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-new-resilience/201004/are-you-suffering-empathy-deficit-disorder

    To add, it is not completely normal human behavior to show a lack of empathy towards others.

    Typical of some perhaps, but not normal.


    HatefullGdemami

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,503
    edited September 2017

    It makes you look like a moron when you don't understand basic ideas. the definition for griefing has been repeatedly linked in this thread. All of the credible sources include some form of abuse of unintended mechanics to ruin other people's experience.

    If your IQ is too low to understand that, then you should just stop posting instead of griefing me with your stupidity.
    Developers "intend" for you to corpse camp players too weak to defend themselves just as much as they "intend" for you to camp a spawn of mobs that are grey con.

    Unless you receive some kind of reward from repeatedly killing players too weak to defend themselves (which, in all but I think one MMORPG that's relevant, you don't), then the developers are discouraging that activity.


    But hey, keep on high-fiving and slapping your Bros on the ass, yelling "GG!" whenever you participate in griefing.  The vast majority doesn't give a shit about your overly aggressive attempts to "enlighten" us, you're still just gonna be that asshole.
    Most games reward killing grey con mobs. In many it's more rewarding than killing mobs your own level because of the sheer volume you can kill in the same time. Even if it isn't actively encourage, it doesn't mean it's actively discouraged.

    As for PvP, I don't see the problem with killing low levels. In TERA I got ganked my first time crossing the Lumbertown bridge. I imagine a lot of people did since it was pretty much camped by high levels looking for a laugh when I played. I laughed, respawned and jumped down into the river to avoid them. Life went on. If you can't get over dying in a PvP game then you shouldn't play them.

    Being murdered in UO and making friends with the people who murdered me is how I first got into MMO PvP.

    And where did I say anything about me killing newbs?

    I'm ok with the behavior but it isn't something I find enjoyable. I'm ok with gay dudes, but making out with one isn't something that sounds very appealing. You don't have to participate in every activity that you don't find morally objectionable.
    Never played an MMORPG where the best way to progress was camping grey con mobs.  In fact, I don't remember the last time I played an MMORPG where grey con mobs provided anything in the way of valuable loot or any experience.


    Some of the best money farming spots are 10+ levels below level 'cap' in BDO.

    We're really comparing behavior targeted at the expense of others as the same as a personal life choice in regard to sexuality?  That's not at all an accurate comparison.  Gay people aren't gay to spite straight people. 



    There in lies the issue. You're assuming that killing low levels or other "griefing" behavior is done to spite people. I don't agree with you.

    And nodody in this thread has said that simply engaging in PvP is griefing.  That's the red herring you, and others, keep trying to make this argument about.  Griefing is beyond simply engaging in PvP.

    But this has been explained ad nauseum.

    I've never said that anyone was arguing that all PvP is griefing. "Strawman! Strawman!"


    IB4Quoted out of context.



    Every argument in the first 13 pages you presented (and I use argument in its loosest definition as you make zero valid points) is how PvP is not griefing and most of the participants of this thread agree with that. You even provided an amusing but very off point graphic to back up your total ignorance to the topic. You fail to see the over arching point that PvP is cool, taking advantage of levels/gear/mechanics to destroy a persons enjoyment is not.

    Now, recently, you have started trying to convince others in this thread that some people in this discussion are too dumb to understand your oh so subtle points. Yet, YOU can't even recognize the giant point looming throughout the entire thread. So the only Strawman (I bet you have to google the definition as you are using it incorrectly, which surprises no one) is you arguing against no one other than the people that know what they are talking about trying to get you to focus on the actual discussion instead of your repeated and annoying statement that PvP is gud.

    Great, we get it, PvP is not griefing. Now go sit in the corner and play with your blocks. Oh and put your helmet on.

    For reference, you can see in your age appropriate graphic where you ACTUALLY state PvP is not griefing. There are others but this one is enough.


    Gdemami[Deleted User]MadFrenchieRufusUO

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

    In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    lahnmir said:
    As this is still going I was thinking about a real world example of doing things that are allowed and ok yet can absolutely destroy someones life.

    I found one, its called stalking. Stalkers just appear in the same social space as the victim. They can hang out in front of their house all day and take pictures that coincidentally have the victim on them. They can gather information on the victim or send them the nicest letters and emails. Nothing special on its own, some things nice even but the victim feels horrible in the end. Why?

    Because they are defenseless
    Because the intention shines through
    Because the stalker doesn't know when to stop
    Because the stalker can do it unpunished and knows it
    Because it interferes and disrupts their every day business

    ALL these points apply to grievers too. Now for the million dollar question: How do people in Real Life think about stalkers? Are they ok with it, are these normal people? Is it an acceptable thing to do or is there something wrong in their heads?

    Stalker victims can't log out, don't get me wrong, i know that. But every motive and result is the same. The big problem is that most stalkers, even when arrested and/or punished, can't see what they are doing wrong and this goes for grievers too, this is on the stalker/griever though and NOT on their victims.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where do you live that stalking is allowed and ok? It's a felony where I am.

    laserit said:
    Good examples of when spawn camping is not griefing.

    Example of griefing with spawn camping

    Johnny is bored, he's a level 60. Johnny gets his kicks going to the level 20-30 zone, picking a a low level victim, killing them and spawn camping them,  over and over and over until they get fed up and log out.

    He then moves on to his next victim.
    Still not clearly griefing. As I mentioned previously, some devs see that as intended gameplay. See Crowfall. They not only say it's ok, they tell people who don't like it to wait for tests of less hardcore rulesets.

    If the devs intend for this to be the way the game is played it literally can not be griefing.
    He also undercut his own argument by using only FPSs as examples.


    FPSs are focused on skill winning the day.  MMORPGs aren't.  A level 7 Hunter can't headshot a level 60 Shaman and get an instakill.

    Take the spawn camping technique mentioned in Day of Defeat.  If the spawn camping team also had swords and spells that do 10× more damage than the other team, I highly doubt the players would be as accepting of the situation.
    I used FPS games because they're very straight forward and even the people in this thread should be able to see the developers intent.

    As far as damage goes, the defenders have MG42s. They probably do more than 10x the damage of the allied riflemen in the boats.

    The attackers can also use MGs, and the defenders aren't nigh invincible with high level epic gear.  C'mon, I shouldn't have had to point that out.  Don't intentionally leave out information about the game to help your own argument.  Day of Defeat never limited attackers and defenders or their weaponry in such a way.  The server admins could set the class limits.
    Setting up an immobile machinegun on the beach is suicide.

    The defenders are in bunkers a hundred yards away where you can barely see them, and need a sniper rifle to even have a chance of hitting them. Using a sniper rifle in the open is also pretty close to suicide.

    Next excuse?
    Lol, and yet you still intentionally fail to understand.  There's nothing about that situation that's equitable to an MMORPG where a player can achieve stat domination before the fight ever starts.  Stop being willfully ignorant.

    And if you don't think snipers routinely neutralized MG nests in the original DoD by wall sniping, you never played it for any length of time.  All they needed was one piece of cover tall enough to stand behind.
    People on the beach, and especially just spawning in the boats are basically free kills who can't fight back. They remain such until they reach a specified point of advance. In MMO terms, that would be leveling up to a competitive point.

    Snipers were not effective during the initial advance. After the riflemen pushed up and breached the sea wall snipers could camp on the beach and keep the bunkers clear, but during the opening portion of the map they were free kills unless the defenders were hopelessly incompetent. They spawned in full view of the enemy, had a noticeably different model and were an easy target while scoped in. 
    No, it isn't.   Nothing about the FPS example is equal to an MMORPG, and your attempt in this post to equate them with "leveling up to a competitive point" is the most hardcore nonsense I've heard you spout yet.

    Your very specific example itself fails, and you are sticking to it because you know that's about the only specific instance that you can even attempt to equate to an MMORPG.  But it's still utter bullshit.

    I mean yea, it was so easy to own those newbs with that M1 Garand of Holy Hellfire +2, right?
    Planetside is an MMO. Crowfall is an MMO.

    You just ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

    I give up. There's no reasoning with you.
    And they all are very different than Day of Defeat...  Which is why they're a friggin MMO and Day of Defeat isn't..... Which is why your comparison was bullshit.

    Thanks for playing.

    GdemamiHatefull[Deleted User]

    image
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    edited September 2017
    laserit said:
    Gdemami said:
    lahnmir said:
    You have no clue what you are talking about, absolutely zero and I don't even know where to start correcting you. It is as if the gardener walked in on a Neuro Science convention and acted like he was one of the attendees thinking he could bluff his way through conversations. I am almost embarresed by how big a fool you are making of yourself right now, almost.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Correcting me? You may start correcting Leon Eisenberg coining ADHD 'mental disorder' and before dying confessing it being a fictitious disease.

    You may even start correcting Allan Frances, DSM IV chair comitee when he openly speaks how ridiculous the manual actualy is:

    Vast majority of those so called 'mental disorders' are lacking any biological markers and are based on more than dubious studies. Psychology/psychiatry is just bogus science...proven again and again.
    But if we don't make up fictitious diseases how will the pharmaceutical industry ever get rich?
    That's not a World issue, it's an American issue.

    You tune in to your news channels and every goddamn commercial is for some drug where the side effects seem worse than the affliction.
    Sorry, but you're right up there in the top five for drug costs. I'd say your drug industry is getting pretty fat and happy as well.

    You take more prescription drugs than we do. Just read any OECD working paper if you need facts. I'll be happy to suggest one. You fill 12 to our 10 per year.

    You also keep your costs down by letting people die waiting for a physician's appointment. Nice cheap solution, eh?

    I'd say Canada has its own set of issues.

    I vaguely remember something about stones and glass houses...


    Canada, like any place certainly does have its issues.

    But statements like: 

    "You also keep your costs down by letting people die waiting for a physician's appointment. Nice cheap solution, eh?"

    are just plain ignorant.

    My personal experiences:

    My stepson is now 19 years old, in 2010 we were camping about 12 miles from Kamloops BC. He woke his mother and me up at around 2:00 am, he had puked up a ton of blood. We raced him to Royal Inland Hospital. He had varicose veins in his stomach that burst and he was bleeding to death. The hospital thickened his blood and induced him into a coma and medevaced him to Vancouver General Hospital where he had a very specialized surgery where they epoxy glued up the veins.

    It turned out that my stepson suffered from Autoimmune Hepatitis. His immune system was attacking his liver. His liver has cirrhosis that prevents the blood from being filtered through it. The blood gets backed up under pressure and inflames his spleen and causes vericose veins to grow in his stomach. Over the years he has many many surgeries and specialists. He's on a transplant list. I can't imagine how much money has been spent and is spent on his treatment over the years.

    No private medical insurance required, no bill to pay.



    Just over two years ago, a couple friends and I were cutting firewood for our recreational properties and we were about 8 miles up a logging road (red dot) One of my friends collapsed
    in pain suffering a heart attack. Luckily for him we still had cell phone service and we called 911.
    We raced down the logging road where an ambulance was waiting for us at the highway. The ambulance took him and raced to a place where he was picked up by a medevac helicopter.

    Three hours after the initial heart attack he was in recovery after surgery at Royal Columbian Hospital (blue circle)



    No private medical insurance required, no bill to pay.

    Just a couple months ago a realtor friend of mine started to feel a little light headed and short of breath. She went to see her family doctor who then sent her to the hospital for an angiogram. She never left the hospital and I visited her 3 days later after her open heart surgery.

    No private medical insurance required, no bill to pay.

    Are there are some bad stories? well sure, but I'm quite positive that there are thousands of good stories for every bad story.

    We hear a lot of propaganda bullshit about your system up here, as I'm sure you hear a lot of propaganda bullshit about our system down there.

    Systems like the Germans have are superior than either IMHO

    edit: If you think that's funny @Gdemami  your a fucking goof

    Post edited by laserit on
    GdemamiKyleranMadFrenchieIselinHatefullRufusUO

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    This thread delivers.

    >Wannabe psychologists diagnose "griefing" as mental illness

    And you are the one who told me I'm a danger to myself and others because I pointed out that enjoying the suffering of others fits the literal definition of sadism.

    How about you stop being a hypocrite.
    Hatefull
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 753
    Hatefull said:
    Every argument in the first 13 pages you presented (and I use argument in its loosest definition as you make zero valid points) is how PvP is not griefing and most of the participants of this thread agree with that. You even provided an amusing but very off point graphic to back up your total ignorance to the topic. You fail to see the over arching point that PvP is cool, taking advantage of levels/gear/mechanics to destroy a persons enjoyment is not.

    Now, recently, you have started trying to convince others in this thread that some people in this discussion are too dumb to understand your oh so subtle points. Yet, YOU can't even recognize the giant point looming throughout the entire thread. So the only Strawman (I bet you have to google the definition as you are using it incorrectly, which surprises no one) is you arguing against no one other than the people that know what they are talking about trying to get you to focus on the actual discussion instead of your repeated and annoying statement that PvP is gud.

    Great, we get it, PvP is not griefing. Now go sit in the corner and play with your blocks. Oh and put your helmet on.

    For reference, you can see in your age appropriate graphic where you ACTUALLY state PvP is not griefing. There are others but this one is enough.


    >calls other people's arguments strawmen
    >strawman their arguments
    >still think you're not a moron

    Amazing. Please continue.

    Planetside is an MMO. Crowfall is an MMO.

    You just ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

    I give up. There's no reasoning with you.
    And they all are very different than Day of Defeat...  Which is why they're a friggin MMO and Day of Defeat isn't..... Which is why your comparison was bullshit.

    Thanks for playing.

    You get more hopeless with every post. It's like arguing with a 2 year old.
    MadFrenchieHatefullKyleran
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    If i'm ever angry about something that happened in a Video Game... it's anger towards myself for not doing better.

    If i'm losing over and over again to somebody doing the same move in a fighting game, i'm angry at myself because I knew what he was going to do.

    If I get ganked in LoL, im angry at myself for not putting wards down..

    and so on...


    Caffynated

    image
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    If i'm ever angry about something that happened in a Video Game... it's anger towards myself for not doing better.

    If i'm losing over and over again to somebody doing the same move in a fighting game, i'm angry at myself because I knew what he was going to do.

    If I get ganked in LoL, im angry at myself for not putting wards down..

    and so on...


    Well, that's probably because you take responsibility for yourself, how you choose to have fun, what you chose to do, etc.

    Seems the average MMO gamer these days is a whining, entitled victim. It's never their fault. It's always someone else that's to blame for everything that happens to them.
    CaffynatedHatefull
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Lol nobody ever mentioned getting ganked in a friggin' MOBA or being beaten in a fighting game as griefing...

    But hey, let's not let a little thing like logic get in the way!  We got a school of red herrings to fish!


    ARedHerring_edit

    Hatefull

    image
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    edited September 2017
    If i'm ever angry about something that happened in a Video Game... it's anger towards myself for not doing better.

    If i'm losing over and over again to somebody doing the same move in a fighting game, i'm angry at myself because I knew what he was going to do.

    If I get ganked in LoL, im angry at myself for not putting wards down..

    and so on...


    Well, that's probably because you take responsibility for yourself, how you choose to have fun, what you chose to do, etc.

    Seems the average MMO gamer these days is a whining, entitled victim. It's never their fault. It's always someone else that's to blame for everything that happens to them.
    No. They just recognize that griefing does occur. They don't want to be part of that so they choose to stay away from those games. Then those games shrivel up and die and everyone in them complains that no one wants to play.

    So they are taking your advice and choosing how they have fun and people still complain about them.

    For some reason they seem to think that treating people like crap outside the game will make people want to try the game to be treated like crap inside the game. Bizarre logic.
    IselinMadFrenchieEldurian[Deleted User]GdemamiHatefullKyleranRufusUO
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    laserit said:
    laserit said:
    Gdemami said:
    lahnmir said:
    You have no clue what you are talking about, absolutely zero and I don't even know where to start correcting you. It is as if the gardener walked in on a Neuro Science convention and acted like he was one of the attendees thinking he could bluff his way through conversations. I am almost embarresed by how big a fool you are making of yourself right now, almost.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Correcting me? You may start correcting Leon Eisenberg coining ADHD 'mental disorder' and before dying confessing it being a fictitious disease.

    You may even start correcting Allan Frances, DSM IV chair comitee when he openly speaks how ridiculous the manual actualy is:

    Vast majority of those so called 'mental disorders' are lacking any biological markers and are based on more than dubious studies. Psychology/psychiatry is just bogus science...proven again and again.
    But if we don't make up fictitious diseases how will the pharmaceutical industry ever get rich?
    That's not a World issue, it's an American issue.

    You tune in to your news channels and every goddamn commercial is for some drug where the side effects seem worse than the affliction.
    Sorry, but you're right up there in the top five for drug costs. I'd say your drug industry is getting pretty fat and happy as well.

    You take more prescription drugs than we do. Just read any OECD working paper if you need facts. I'll be happy to suggest one. You fill 12 to our 10 per year.

    You also keep your costs down by letting people die waiting for a physician's appointment. Nice cheap solution, eh?

    I'd say Canada has its own set of issues.

    I vaguely remember something about stones and glass houses...


    Canada, like any place certainly does have its issues.

    But statements like: 

    "You also keep your costs down by letting people die waiting for a physician's appointment. Nice cheap solution, eh?"

    are just plain ignorant.

    My personal experiences:

    My stepson is now 19 years old, in 2010 we were camping about 12 miles from Kamloops BC. He woke his mother and me up at around 2:00 am, he had puked up a ton of blood. We raced him to Royal Inland Hospital. He had varicose veins in his stomach that burst and he was bleeding to death. The hospital thickened his blood and induced him into a coma and medevaced him to Vancouver General Hospital where he had a very specialized surgery where they epoxy glued up the veins.

    It turned out that my stepson suffered from Autoimmune Hepatitis. His immune system was attacking his liver. His liver has cirrhosis that prevents the blood from being filtered through it. The blood gets backed up under pressure and inflames his spleen and causes vericose veins to grow in his stomach. Over the years he has many many surgeries and specialists. He's on a transplant list. I can't imagine how much money has been spent and is spent on his treatment over the years.

    No private medical insurance required, no bill to pay.



    Just over two years ago, a couple friends and I were cutting firewood for our recreational properties and we were about 8 miles up a logging road (red dot) One of my friends collapsed
    in pain suffering a heart attack. Luckily for him we still had cell phone service and we called 911.
    We raced down the logging road where an ambulance was waiting for us at the highway. The ambulance took him and raced to a place where he was picked up by a medevac helicopter.

    Three hours after the initial heart attack he was in recovery after surgery at Royal Columbian Hospital (blue circle)



    No private medical insurance required, no bill to pay.

    Just a couple months ago a realtor friend of mine started to feel a little light headed and short of breath. She went to see her family doctor who then sent her to the hospital for an angiogram. She never left the hospital and I visited her 3 days later after her open heart surgery.

    No private medical insurance required, no bill to pay.

    Are there are some bad stories? well sure, but I'm quite positive that there are thousands of good stories for every bad story.

    We hear a lot of propaganda bullshit about your system up here, as I'm sure you hear a lot of propaganda bullshit about our system down there.

    Systems like the Germans have are superior than either IMHO

    edit: If you think that's funny @Gdemami  your a fucking goof

    Oooo...story-time. I have a story too.

    My uncle who lived in Canada had to wait 4 1/2 months for medical care for his condition.

    Actually he technically only had to wait 2 months because he died. That didn't stop them from sending him an appointment reminder a couple of months later however. I'm sure my aunt appreciated the notice.

    Nice bang-up awesome health care system you got going. If he was in the US he would be alive today.
    Hatefull
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,041
    edited September 2017
    laserit said:
    laserit said:
    Gdemami said:
    lahnmir said:


    Oooo...story-time. I have a story too.

    My uncle who lived in Canada had to wait 4 1/2 months for medical care for his condition.

    Actually he technically only had to wait 2 months because he died. That didn't stop them from sending him an appointment reminder a couple of months later however. I'm sure my aunt appreciated the notice.

    Nice bang-up awesome health care system you got going. If he was in the US he would be alive today.
    In my country we laugh at how bad both the Canadian AND US healthcare ystem are. Then again, I live in The Netherlands where we have some of the  best care in the world, in 2015 we actually had THE best. So now that we are done measuring healthcare peens and sharing stories, could you take it down a notch? He shared a story, sorry you had a different experience, no need to act like that.

    postlarval said:


    Well, that's probably because you take responsibility for yourself, how you choose to have fun, what you chose to do, etc.

    Seems the average MMO gamer these days is a whining, entitled victim. It's never their fault. It's always someone else that's to blame for everything that happens to them.
    And what a ridiculous statement. If someone else prevents you from doing anything, how in ANY way is that the your fault? If someone does something to you you can in no way prevent and prevents you from doing anything at all, how can you choose to have fun or do something else? There is no one else to blame, grievers have victims, apparently you don't have a clue what a griever is or you just haven't read the thread at all.

    The one whining and feeling entitled is you. Whining about how bad behavior is being looked down upon and entitled because you think your morally bankrupt play style should be accepted for what it is and people have no right to call you out on it and call you a jerk. Go play in your empty OWPVP game all normal players left because of the toxicity, or isn't that what has happened to all cough*good*cough OWPVP games out there?

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    laserit[Deleted User]GdemamiHatefull
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    laserit said:
    laserit said:
    Gdemami said:
    lahnmir said:
    You have no clue what you are talking about, absolutely zero and I don't even know where to start correcting you. It is as if the gardener walked in on a Neuro Science convention and acted like he was one of the attendees thinking he could bluff his way through conversations. I am almost embarresed by how big a fool you are making of yourself right now, almost.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Correcting me? You may start correcting Leon Eisenberg coining ADHD 'mental disorder' and before dying confessing it being a fictitious disease.

    You may even start correcting Allan Frances, DSM IV chair comitee when he openly speaks how ridiculous the manual actualy is:

    Vast majority of those so called 'mental disorders' are lacking any biological markers and are based on more than dubious studies. Psychology/psychiatry is just bogus science...proven again and again.
    But if we don't make up fictitious diseases how will the pharmaceutical industry ever get rich?
    That's not a World issue, it's an American issue.

    You tune in to your news channels and every goddamn commercial is for some drug where the side effects seem worse than the affliction.
    Sorry, but you're right up there in the top five for drug costs. I'd say your drug industry is getting pretty fat and happy as well.

    You take more prescription drugs than we do. Just read any OECD working paper if you need facts. I'll be happy to suggest one. You fill 12 to our 10 per year.

    You also keep your costs down by letting people die waiting for a physician's appointment. Nice cheap solution, eh?

    I'd say Canada has its own set of issues.

    I vaguely remember something about stones and glass houses...


    Canada, like any place certainly does have its issues.

    But statements like: 

    "You also keep your costs down by letting people die waiting for a physician's appointment. Nice cheap solution, eh?"

    are just plain ignorant.

    My personal experiences:

    My stepson is now 19 years old, in 2010 we were camping about 12 miles from Kamloops BC. He woke his mother and me up at around 2:00 am, he had puked up a ton of blood. We raced him to Royal Inland Hospital. He had varicose veins in his stomach that burst and he was bleeding to death. The hospital thickened his blood and induced him into a coma and medevaced him to Vancouver General Hospital where he had a very specialized surgery where they epoxy glued up the veins.

    It turned out that my stepson suffered from Autoimmune Hepatitis. His immune system was attacking his liver. His liver has cirrhosis that prevents the blood from being filtered through it. The blood gets backed up under pressure and inflames his spleen and causes vericose veins to grow in his stomach. Over the years he has many many surgeries and specialists. He's on a transplant list. I can't imagine how much money has been spent and is spent on his treatment over the years.

    No private medical insurance required, no bill to pay.



    Just over two years ago, a couple friends and I were cutting firewood for our recreational properties and we were about 8 miles up a logging road (red dot) One of my friends collapsed
    in pain suffering a heart attack. Luckily for him we still had cell phone service and we called 911.
    We raced down the logging road where an ambulance was waiting for us at the highway. The ambulance took him and raced to a place where he was picked up by a medevac helicopter.

    Three hours after the initial heart attack he was in recovery after surgery at Royal Columbian Hospital (blue circle)



    No private medical insurance required, no bill to pay.

    Just a couple months ago a realtor friend of mine started to feel a little light headed and short of breath. She went to see her family doctor who then sent her to the hospital for an angiogram. She never left the hospital and I visited her 3 days later after her open heart surgery.

    No private medical insurance required, no bill to pay.

    Are there are some bad stories? well sure, but I'm quite positive that there are thousands of good stories for every bad story.

    We hear a lot of propaganda bullshit about your system up here, as I'm sure you hear a lot of propaganda bullshit about our system down there.

    Systems like the Germans have are superior than either IMHO

    edit: If you think that's funny @Gdemami  your a fucking goof

    Oooo...story-time. I have a story too.

    My uncle who lived in Canada had to wait 4 1/2 months for medical care for his condition.

    Actually he technically only had to wait 2 months because he died. That didn't stop them from sending him an appointment reminder a couple of months later however. I'm sure my aunt appreciated the notice.

    Nice bang-up awesome health care system you got going. If he was in the US he would be alive today.
    Sorry for your Uncle

    Sounds like he had a Shitty Doctor, sucks when the system lets people down.

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/03/health/medical-error-a-leading-cause-of-death/index.html

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/05/03/researchers-medical-errors-now-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-united-states/?utm_term=.26217e289b28

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/americans-who-confronted-surprise-medical-bills-share-their-stories/



    [Deleted User]Hatefull

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 753
    So to sum up the thread:

    Side A: You consent to PvP when you log into a PvP game. All PvP that is allowed by the devs is intended. You can not be griefed by someone who is playing the game the way the devs intended it to be played.

    Side B: We don't care what the creator of the game intended. Our feelings are all that matter. If you hurt our feelings we will call you mentally ill, morally bankrupt, an "a$$hole", and a "total failure as a human being" because that's a rational response to being inconvenienced.

    Neither side is going to budge and there's no common ground. Continuing to argue is pointless.


    GdemamiHatefullGeneral-ZodKyleran
  • paladin2k4paladin2k4 Member UncommonPosts: 1
    I would say Eve Online, since it is an equal opportunity destroyer.  From the first day you log in to the last, the open nature of the game allows players to keep OTHER players from playing the game.  Whether it's a PVP game or not, this is the definition of griefing
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    So to sum up the thread:

    Side A: You consent to PvP when you log into a PvP game. All PvP that is allowed by the devs is intended. You can not be griefed by someone who is playing the game the way the devs intended it to be played.

    Side B: We don't care what the creator of the game intended. Our feelings are all that matter. If you hurt our feelings we will call you mentally ill, morally bankrupt, an "a$$hole", and a "total failure as a human being" because that's a rational response to being inconvenienced.

    Neither side is going to budge and there's no common ground. Continuing to argue is pointless.


    The reason you made that conclusion is because you see it in black or white. Either it is totally fine or it is a mental illness. But the fact is there are lots of shades in between. 
    lahnmirGdemamiMadFrenchie[Deleted User]HatefullKyleranRufusUO
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Sign In or Register to comment.