Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Which MMO most promoted griefing?

11214161718

Comments

  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610
    edited September 2017

    How is that, kid?
    By building a sand castle in a public sand pit, the kid explicitly opened himself to destruction by some brain dead bully too. It's not different. Or he would have done his castle in a private place (PvE server?).
    Both are multiplayer communities.
    So how is it different? Please, pray tell me.
    The main difference is expectation.

    If the child knows people will destroy his sand castle, and repeatedly punch him in the face if he steps into the sand pit then it's the same thing as OWPvP griefing and he may not step into it.

    Another example could be the US/UK hostages taken in the past by IS and executed in Syria.
    Utterly defenceless but they must've known they were risking their lives being out there.

    Personally, stepping into an OWPvP game is more like the Syria example than stepping into a childs sand pit.

    image
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    Rhoklaw said:

    I'm tired of this political correctness filter, so I'm just going to be blunt. People who grief are mentally ill.
    It's a game.

    I can be blunt as well. People who take games or things that happen in games too seriously are mentally ill.
    CaffynatedFlyByKnight
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 753
    laserit said:

    Spawn camping to defend an objective is not griefing.

    Spawn camping to ruin someones day for shits and giggles is griefing.

    Is that agreeable?
    Not necessarily. Killing people, standing on their corpse and proclaiming to everyone around "I da best" then doing it again if they come back is the intended purpose of some games. In the Crowfall alpha people were complaining about being killed repeatedly before they could even make a basic weapon. The devs told them flat out "this ruleset may not be for you."

    It comes down to the developers intent for how the game is supposed to be played.
    immodium said:
    How is that, kid?
    By building a sand castle in a public sand pit, the kid explicitly opened himself to destruction by some brain dead bully too. It's not different. Or he would have done his castle in a private place (PvE server?).
    Both are multiplayer communities.
    So how is it different? Please, pray tell me.
    The main difference is expectation.

    If the child knows people will destroy his sand castle, and repeatedly punch him in the face if he steps into the sand pit then it's the same thing as OWPvP griefing and he may not step into it.

    Another example could be the US/UK hostages taken in the past by ISIS and executed in Syria.
    Utterly defenceless but they must've known they were risking their lives being out there.

    Personally, stepping into an OWPvP game is more like the Syria example than stepping into a childs sand pit.
    I don't think either is quite accurate. It's more like US/UK citizens who join Syrian militias and then get captured and executed.

    They're combatants in a war zone, who fully understood what that meant when they went over there.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited September 2017

    It makes you look like a moron when you don't understand basic ideas. the definition for griefing has been repeatedly linked in this thread. All of the credible sources include some form of abuse of unintended mechanics to ruin other people's experience.

    If your IQ is too low to understand that, then you should just stop posting instead of griefing me with your stupidity.
    Developers "intend" for you to corpse camp players too weak to defend themselves just as much as they "intend" for you to camp a spawn of mobs that are grey con.

    Unless you receive some kind of reward from repeatedly killing players too weak to defend themselves (which, in all but I think one MMORPG that's relevant, you don't), then the developers are discouraging that activity.


    But hey, keep on high-fiving and slapping your Bros on the ass, yelling "GG!" whenever you participate in griefing.  The vast majority doesn't give a shit about your overly aggressive attempts to "enlighten" us, you're still just gonna be that asshole.
    Most games reward killing grey con mobs. In many it's more rewarding than killing mobs your own level because of the sheer volume you can kill in the same time. Even if it isn't actively encourage, it doesn't mean it's actively discouraged.

    As for PvP, I don't see the problem with killing low levels. In TERA I got ganked my first time crossing the Lumbertown bridge. I imagine a lot of people did since it was pretty much camped by high levels looking for a laugh when I played. I laughed, respawned and jumped down into the river to avoid them. Life went on. If you can't get over dying in a PvP game then you shouldn't play them.

    Being murdered in UO and making friends with the people who murdered me is how I first got into MMO PvP.

    And where did I say anything about me killing newbs?

    I'm ok with the behavior but it isn't something I find enjoyable. I'm ok with gay dudes, but making out with one isn't something that sounds very appealing. You don't have to participate in every activity that you don't find morally objectionable.
    Never played an MMORPG where the best way to progress was camping grey con mobs.  In fact, I don't remember the last time I played an MMORPG where grey con mobs provided anything in the way of valuable loot or any experience.


    Some of the best money farming spots are 10+ levels below level 'cap' in BDO.

    We're really comparing behavior targeted at the expense of others as the same as a personal life choice in regard to sexuality?  That's not at all an accurate comparison.  Gay people aren't gay to spite straight people. 



    There in lies the issue. You're assuming that killing low levels or other "griefing" behavior is done to spite people. I don't agree with you.

    And nodody in this thread has said that simply engaging in PvP is griefing.  That's the red herring you, and others, keep trying to make this argument about.  Griefing is beyond simply engaging in PvP.

    But this has been explained ad nauseum.

    I've never said that anyone was arguing that all PvP is griefing. "Strawman! Strawman!"


    IB4Quoted out of context.



    You can disagree all you want, the vast majority disagrees with you, not me. 
    For someone who likes to cite logical fallacies (incorrectly) you sure do use a lot of them.

    Argumentum ad populum isn't a valid rebuttal.
    Griefing is done to degrade the experience of those around the player doing the griefing.  Nothing about gay people going to the movies degrades that experience for anyone else going to that movie.  Someone standing up and yelling during the movie repeatedly does.  You can attempt to make the case that those people are simply "enjoying the movie in their own way," but nobody really cares if it means it degrades others' experiences.

    Again, you're simply wrong on what griefing is. Yelling in a movie theater is against the rules. They will kick you out for that. Killing newbs in low level areas or spawn camping is not against the rules in most games. Where it is against the written COC I would agree that it's griefing. The COC is part of the game and its intended functionality as much as the mechanics.



    And I'm saying that nobody really cares what's written in the COC when making judgements on people's behavior, just like in real life.  That's reality.


    You, and a select few others, seem to think it's wrong, but boohoo, nobody in the majority cares: act like an asshat, get labeled as one.  That's not hard.  And sure, that's an argumentum ad populum, but since we're talking about the inherently subjective judgements made by folks based on the actions of others, then perception is the reality.


    I'm sure Hitler and his closest generals didn't think they were assholes.  Nobody cares about their opinions, though...  Because they were assholes.


    You can defend them if you like, but despite all your rage, you're still just a rat in the cage of public perception.



    EDIT- Holy crap, I need to stop posting from my phone.

    Gdemami

    image
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,041
    Ohh come on guys, at least something good came out of this thread.

    check out my new sig, thanks @Kyleran !

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Kyleran[Deleted User]Hatefull
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    edited September 2017

    Griefing is about the players actions and intent. Not the developers.
    Actions and intent. Let's remember those two words.

    Walking into a PvP area and killing someone without reason isn't griefing. That's just part of PvP. Following that person around repeatedly killing them or doing other things to annoy them is griefing. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

    Yet it seems most people can't understand it. These people are just too delicate to play any game with PvP. Even a single death seems to send them into a tail-spin. A single resource node taken before they get there and the insults spew in chat. Get to a mob before them and they act like you just started World War III. Those people really should consider avoiding games with PvP entirely.
    Gdemami
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 753
    And I'm saying that nobody really cares what's written in the COC when making judgements on people's behavior, just like in real life.  That's reality. You, and a select few others, seem to think it's wrong, but boohoo, nobody in the majority cares: act like an asshat, get labeled as one.  That's not hard.  And sure, that's an argumentum ad populum, but since we're talking about the inherently subjective judgements made by folks based on the actions of others, then perception is the reality.

    I'm sure Hitler and his closest generals didn't think they were assholes.  Nobody cares about their opinions, though...  Because they were assholes.

    You can defend them if you like, but despite all your rage, you're still just a rat in the cage of public perception.
    What Hitler and his closest generals did was illegal under international law. Those who didn't die in the war were put on trial and executed for war crimes and crimes against humanity. I'm not seeing how that relates to whether or not killing newbs in an MMO is griefing or not.

    Thanks for admitting you're wrong though. Even if you don't care that you're wrong, it's still healthy to be able to come to grips with reality.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited September 2017

    Griefing is about the players actions and intent. Not the developers.
    Actions and intent. Let's remember those two words.

    Walking into a PvP area and killing someone without reason isn't griefing. That's just part of PvP. Following that person around repeatedly killing them or doing other things to annoy them is griefing. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

    Yet it seems most people can't understand it. These people are just too delicate to play any game with PvP. Even a single death seems to send them into a tail-spin. A single resource node taken before they get there and the insults spew in chat. Get to a mob before them and they act like you just started World War III. Those people really should consider avoiding games with PvP entirely.
    Those people don't appear to be the ones being defended by the majority in this thread.  It's the griefers, who go to newbie zones to camp quest NPCs, corpse camp those who didn't pose a threat in the first place, or utilize broken mechanics to derail the experience of others that the majority are speaking on.  Those who go to a PvP area and expect no competition aren't having their sensitivities defended here.

    It really is an issue of no direct consequence.  I don't remember ever seeing a video of Butterbean repeatedly beating the shit out of a featherweight novice boxer, because he would be labeled an asshat and a coward for picking a fight with someone like that.  He wouldn't go to jail (depending upon the setting and context), but anyone who was cheering him on would be labeled an asshole alongside him.  If Butterbean did pick that fight, would you be shouting about how that person shouldn't have participated in the sport of boxing if he was "afraid" of getting hit?
    EldurianGdemamiHatefull

    image
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    laserit said:

    Spawn camping to defend an objective is not griefing.

    Spawn camping to ruin someones day for shits and giggles is griefing.

    Is that agreeable?
    Not necessarily. Killing people, standing on their corpse and proclaiming to everyone around "I da best" then doing it again if they come back is the intended purpose of some games. In the Crowfall alpha people were complaining about being killed repeatedly before they could even make a basic weapon. The devs told them flat out "this ruleset may not be for you."

    It comes down to the developers intent for how the game is supposed to be played. 
    Griefing is 100% about the "intent"

    How its done is irrelevant.

    *If we shouldn't, we couldn't* is not a fair or valid argument.
    Gdemami[Deleted User]HatefullRufusUO

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 753
    laserit said:
    laserit said:

    Spawn camping to defend an objective is not griefing.

    Spawn camping to ruin someones day for shits and giggles is griefing.

    Is that agreeable?
    Not necessarily. Killing people, standing on their corpse and proclaiming to everyone around "I da best" then doing it again if they come back is the intended purpose of some games. In the Crowfall alpha people were complaining about being killed repeatedly before they could even make a basic weapon. The devs told them flat out "this ruleset may not be for you."

    It comes down to the developers intent for how the game is supposed to be played. 
    Griefing is 100% about the "intent"

    How its done is irrelevant.

    *If we shouldn't, we couldn't* is not a fair or valid argument.
    It's about the intent of the developers.

    Example: Day of Defeat Omaha map. The Allies spawn in boats being fired down on by machineguns from the Axis defenses. It is 100% intended by the developers that the Axis are supposed to kill the Allies in their spawn. Preferably repeatedly, because it becomes very difficult to defend if they start pushing up the cliffs.

    Example 2: Team Fortress Classic Attack/Defend game mode. The defense sets up in fortifications overlooking the offense's spawn room. It is by intentional design that you can fire into the spawn and kill the offense.

    Example 3: Planetside 1/2. You can go into the enemy base and camp their spawn rooms. In fact, it is required to camp their spawn rooms if you ever hope to capture a defended base.
    Gdemami
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    If you seriously try to correlate a persons in game behavior with IRL, you might be the one with the mental/emotional issues.

    If you join OWPVP games only to complain about getting hit, you might be the one with the mental/emotional issues.

    A few of you have butt hurt inner childs projecting left over bad feels from some older title. I'm sorry they hurt you. Let it GO. Go get a hug. Stay away from the other boys/girls when they're having fun and rough housing while you're recovering. You're still raw and fragile.
    CaffynatedGdemamiHatefull
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    "If Butterbean did pick that fight, would you be shouting about how that person shouldn't have participated in the sport of boxing if he was "afraid" of getting hit?"

    If he willingly got into the ring with him (aka entered a PvP area)...

    YES

    I can tell you from Albion Online that just about every day I hear about someone entering a tier V red zone as a tier III and whining that they were "griefed".

    In Eve, there was a steady stream of newbie morons who would just jump right into 0.0 and then complain when they were killed, claiming it was griefing.

    No one has the right to fair PvP if they choose to enter unfair situations. No one. Ever. Go away, get better/stronger/more skilled and come back later. If you keep going back for more that's your own fault.

    Part of playing in PvP areas is being aware of your surroundings. Also, realize that getting ambushed is also part of PvP. So is stalking. So is 5v1, etc.

    You have no right to expect anything else.

    Some times it's just another player trying to show you that the area you're in is out of your league. What would you have them do? Tell them, "Hey, you should consider coming back here when you're stronger." I've done that. Most of the time the response is, "Fuck you!". So I kill them. They come back. I kill them again. They come back. They're not getting griefed, they are a first class MORON. I don't like people telling me to fuck off.

    If that's griefing to you, then postlarval = proud griefer.
    GdemamiCaffynated
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    If you seriously try to correlate a persons in game behavior with IRL, you might be the one with the mental/emotional issues.
    Yeah no. If you act like an asshole online it's because you are an asshole. You can use the "It's just a game" excuse for behaving in a competitive manor, IE killing people for profits, because they are in your way, or because you like a good fight. You don't get to use the "It's just a game" excuse to behave like a total twat and intentionally be as big of an ass as possible when the people you are playing with are real. Intentionally going to areas filled with tons of low level players and killing them because "lol" falls into the latter, not the former. If you do it you are an asshole. Period.
    dragonlee66Gdemami
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    "If Butterbean did pick that fight, would you be shouting about how that person shouldn't have participated in the sport of boxing if he was "afraid" of getting hit?"

    If he willingly got into the ring with him (aka entered a PvP area)...

    YES

    I can tell you from Albion Online that just about every day I hear about someone entering a tier V red zone as a tier III and whining that they were "griefed".

    In Eve, there was a steady stream of newbie morons who would just jump right into 0.0 and then complain when they were killed, claiming it was griefing.

    No one has the right to fair PvP if they choose to enter unfair situations. No one. Ever. Go away, get better/stronger/more skilled and come back later. If you keep going back for more that's your own fault.

    Part of playing in PvP areas is being aware of your surroundings. Also, realize that getting ambushed is also part of PvP. So is stalking. So is 5v1, etc.

    You have no right to expect anything else.

    Some times it's just another player trying to show you that the area you're in is out of your league. What would you have them do? Tell them, "Hey, you should consider coming back here when you're stronger." I've done that. Most of the time the response is, "Fuck you!". So I kill them. They come back. I kill them again. They come back. They're not getting griefed, they are a first class MORON. I don't like people telling me to fuck off.

    If that's griefing to you, then postlarval = proud griefer.
    Who said anything about getting into the ring?  The kid was training at the gym, Butterbean was just bored.  Interrupting this kid's training was fun for him.  I mean, the kid's at the gym, he should expect to get hit, right?
    GdemamiHatefull

    image
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    edited September 2017
    "If Butterbean did pick that fight, would you be shouting about how that person shouldn't have participated in the sport of boxing if he was "afraid" of getting hit?"

    If he willingly got into the ring with him (aka entered a PvP area)...

    YES

    I can tell you from Albion Online that just about every day I hear about someone entering a tier V red zone as a tier III and whining that they were "griefed".

    In Eve, there was a steady stream of newbie morons who would just jump right into 0.0 and then complain when they were killed, claiming it was griefing.

    No one has the right to fair PvP if they choose to enter unfair situations. No one. Ever. Go away, get better/stronger/more skilled and come back later. If you keep going back for more that's your own fault.

    Part of playing in PvP areas is being aware of your surroundings. Also, realize that getting ambushed is also part of PvP. So is stalking. So is 5v1, etc.

    You have no right to expect anything else.

    Some times it's just another player trying to show you that the area you're in is out of your league. What would you have them do? Tell them, "Hey, you should consider coming back here when you're stronger." I've done that. Most of the time the response is, "Fuck you!". So I kill them. They come back. I kill them again. They come back. They're not getting griefed, they are a first class MORON. I don't like people telling me to fuck off.

    If that's griefing to you, then postlarval = proud griefer.
    Who said anything about getting into the ring?  The kid was training at the gym, Butterbean was just bored.  Interrupting this kid's training was fun for him.  I mean, the kid's at the gym, he should expect to get hit, right?
    And your example is not describing a PvP situation as the exists in games. It's a poor use case. In boxing the ring is the accepted PvP environment. Your example in an MMO would be akin to a PvPer walking into a PvE area and being able to kill someone (probably by breaking rules - hacking). In your example, he picked the fight outside of the accepted boxing rules. He broke the rules. That's not even griefing. It's also not boxing, it's fighting. BIG difference.

    ALL PvP is consensual. You choose to enter a PvP area. You choose to turn on a PvP flag.
    CaffynatedGdemami
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    The reason people play PvP games is because they like competition. The reason most people are super burnt on PvP games these days is because you aren't actually competitive until you've spent considerable time killing mobs to level while at the mercy of people who can just walk up and one shot you. People don't stick around for that crap, the vast majority of them just leave.

    Every PvP game I go to it's the same old story. Fighting to get a character worth playing before the game's population plummets so far down that the game itself isn't worth playing no matter how strong your character is.

    There is really a simple question every PvPer should ask themselves:

    A. Do you want to play a successful game with lots of other players who can offer an engaging fight and constant action?
    B. Do you want to play a dead game?

    If the answer is A, then you need to adopt a zero tolerance policy for griefers, and grief them as actively as they grief everyone else until they leave your games. If the answer is B, then just tolerate them and then sit back and watch your game become the next Shadowbane, Ultima Online, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, Wurm PvP Server, Mortal Online etc. And then sit around and blame the developers or the carebears when you are once again running around in a game where you can kill everyone, but there is nobody there to kill.

    As long as we tolerate griefers, PvP games are doomed. It doesn't matter what the developer says is ok. It doesn't matter what the "Point of a PvP" game is. If you break your toys you don't get to play them with them anymore. So don't be a moron, and take care of your damn toys.
    GdemamiHatefullRufusUO
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Eldurian said:
    The reason people play PvP games is because they like competition. The reason most people are super burnt on PvP games these days is because you aren't actually competitive until you've spent considerable time killing mobs to level while at the mercy of people who can just walk up and one shot you. People don't stick around for that crap, the vast majority of them just leave.

    Every PvP game I go to it's the same old story. Fighting to get a character worth playing before the game's population plummets so far down that the game itself isn't worth playing no matter how strong your character is.

    There is really a simple question every PvPer should ask themselves:

    A. Do you want to play a successful game with lots of other players who can offer an engaging fight and constant action?
    B. Do you want to play a dead game?

    If the answer is A, then you need to adopt a zero tolerance policy for griefers, and grief them as actively as they grief everyone else until they leave your games. If the answer is B, then just tolerate them and then sit back and watch your game become the next Shadowbane, Ultima Online, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, Wurm PvP Server, Mortal Online etc. And then sit around and blame the developers or the carebears when you are once again running around in a game where you can kill everyone, but there is nobody there to kill.

    As long as we tolerate griefers, PvP games are doomed. It doesn't matter what the developer says is ok. It doesn't matter what the "Point of a PvP" game is. If you break your toys you don't get to play them with them anymore. So don't be a moron, and take care of your damn toys.
    There are/were Anti-Griefers in Shadowbane, Ultima Online, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, Wurm PvP Server, Mortal Online etc...

    It's not enough.

    I would like a system in place where is shows me a proximity of where the griefers are when logged in, based on my tracking skill. Something like what Bountyhunters had to track Jedi in SWG.
    immodium

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    "If Butterbean did pick that fight, would you be shouting about how that person shouldn't have participated in the sport of boxing if he was "afraid" of getting hit?"

    If he willingly got into the ring with him (aka entered a PvP area)...

    YES

    I can tell you from Albion Online that just about every day I hear about someone entering a tier V red zone as a tier III and whining that they were "griefed".

    In Eve, there was a steady stream of newbie morons who would just jump right into 0.0 and then complain when they were killed, claiming it was griefing.

    No one has the right to fair PvP if they choose to enter unfair situations. No one. Ever. Go away, get better/stronger/more skilled and come back later. If you keep going back for more that's your own fault.

    Part of playing in PvP areas is being aware of your surroundings. Also, realize that getting ambushed is also part of PvP. So is stalking. So is 5v1, etc.

    You have no right to expect anything else.

    Some times it's just another player trying to show you that the area you're in is out of your league. What would you have them do? Tell them, "Hey, you should consider coming back here when you're stronger." I've done that. Most of the time the response is, "Fuck you!". So I kill them. They come back. I kill them again. They come back. They're not getting griefed, they are a first class MORON. I don't like people telling me to fuck off.

    If that's griefing to you, then postlarval = proud griefer.
    Who said anything about getting into the ring?  The kid was training at the gym, Butterbean was just bored.  Interrupting this kid's training was fun for him.  I mean, the kid's at the gym, he should expect to get hit, right?
    And your example is not describing a PvP situation as the exists in games. It's a poor use case. In boxing the ring is the accepted PvP environment. Your example in an MMO would be akin to a PvPer walking into a PvE area and being able to kill someone (probably by breaking rules - hacking). In your example, he picked the fight outside of the accepted boxing rules. He broke the rules. That's not even griefing. It's also not boxing, it's fighting. BIG difference.

    ALL PvP is consensual. You choose to enter a PvP area. You choose to turn on a PvP flag.
    What?  Not all training or sparring happens in the ring.  What boxing gym have you been to?  

    The point is just because something isn't directly and completely prevented by the system itself, it doesn't mean you get to perform the act and submit you shouldn't be judged for it.  You wanna camp lowbie quest givers in a lowbie zone in your raid gear?  Then congrats!  Here's your asshat pin (decoder ring sold separately)!

    Do you wanna shout to the rooftops about how awful gay people are?  Sure, but when you get judged for it as a bigot or homophobe, don't whine.  Be a man and own up to it.  These psuedo-justifications don't help your case; they just make you look like an asshat who also can't handle being held accountable.
    GdemamiHatefull

    image
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    laserit said:
    laserit said:

    Spawn camping to defend an objective is not griefing.

    Spawn camping to ruin someones day for shits and giggles is griefing.

    Is that agreeable?
    Not necessarily. Killing people, standing on their corpse and proclaiming to everyone around "I da best" then doing it again if they come back is the intended purpose of some games. In the Crowfall alpha people were complaining about being killed repeatedly before they could even make a basic weapon. The devs told them flat out "this ruleset may not be for you."

    It comes down to the developers intent for how the game is supposed to be played. 
    Griefing is 100% about the "intent"

    How its done is irrelevant.

    *If we shouldn't, we couldn't* is not a fair or valid argument.
    It's about the intent of the developers.

    Example: Day of Defeat Omaha map. The Allies spawn in boats being fired down on by machineguns from the Axis defenses. It is 100% intended by the developers that the Axis are supposed to kill the Allies in their spawn. Preferably repeatedly, because it becomes very difficult to defend if they start pushing up the cliffs.

    Example 2: Team Fortress Classic Attack/Defend game mode. The defense sets up in fortifications overlooking the offense's spawn room. It is by intentional design that you can fire into the spawn and kill the offense.

    Example 3: Planetside 1/2. You can go into the enemy base and camp their spawn rooms. In fact, it is required to camp their spawn rooms if you ever hope to capture a defended base.
    Good examples of when spawn camping is not griefing.

    Example of griefing with spawn camping

    Johnny is bored, he's a level 60. Johnny gets his kicks going to the level 20-30 zone, picking a a low level victim, killing them and spawn camping them,  over and over and over until they get fed up and log out.

    He then moves on to his next victim.
    MadFrenchieGdemamiHatefull

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited September 2017
    Oh sure they existed but at least in the ones I have played the overall attitude has been one of tolerance to griefers. Griefers are actually treated as a legitimate part of the community with a legitimate voice and concerns that should be listened to. 

    I think part of the solution is definitely getting a development team that says to griefers "No you aren't a legitimate part of our community, you are a nuisance who drive away far more players then your own contributions are worth," and designing game features with that in mind. But part of it definitely is building a PvP game with a community where griefing is not considered acceptable by the players themselves.

    Gdemami
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited September 2017
    laserit said:
    laserit said:
    laserit said:

    Spawn camping to defend an objective is not griefing.

    Spawn camping to ruin someones day for shits and giggles is griefing.

    Is that agreeable?
    Not necessarily. Killing people, standing on their corpse and proclaiming to everyone around "I da best" then doing it again if they come back is the intended purpose of some games. In the Crowfall alpha people were complaining about being killed repeatedly before they could even make a basic weapon. The devs told them flat out "this ruleset may not be for you."

    It comes down to the developers intent for how the game is supposed to be played. 
    Griefing is 100% about the "intent"

    How its done is irrelevant.

    *If we shouldn't, we couldn't* is not a fair or valid argument.
    It's about the intent of the developers.

    Example: Day of Defeat Omaha map. The Allies spawn in boats being fired down on by machineguns from the Axis defenses. It is 100% intended by the developers that the Axis are supposed to kill the Allies in their spawn. Preferably repeatedly, because it becomes very difficult to defend if they start pushing up the cliffs.

    Example 2: Team Fortress Classic Attack/Defend game mode. The defense sets up in fortifications overlooking the offense's spawn room. It is by intentional design that you can fire into the spawn and kill the offense.

    Example 3: Planetside 1/2. You can go into the enemy base and camp their spawn rooms. In fact, it is required to camp their spawn rooms if you ever hope to capture a defended base.
    Good examples of when spawn camping is not griefing.

    Example of griefing with spawn camping

    Johnny is bored, he's a level 60. Johnny gets his kicks going to the level 20-30 zone, picking a a low level victim, killing them and spawn camping them,  over and over and over until they get fed up and log out.

    He then moves on to his next victim.
    He also undercut his own argument by using only FPSs as examples.


    FPSs are focused on skill winning the day.  MMORPGs aren't.  A level 7 Hunter can't headshot a level 60 Shaman and get an instakill.

    Take the spawn camping technique mentioned in Day of Defeat.  If the spawn camping team also had swords and spells that do 10× more damage than the other team, I highly doubt the players would be as accepting of the situation.
    laseritGdemami

    image
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    edited September 2017
    laserit said:
    laserit said:
    laserit said:

    Spawn camping to defend an objective is not griefing.

    Spawn camping to ruin someones day for shits and giggles is griefing.

    Is that agreeable?
    Not necessarily. Killing people, standing on their corpse and proclaiming to everyone around "I da best" then doing it again if they come back is the intended purpose of some games. In the Crowfall alpha people were complaining about being killed repeatedly before they could even make a basic weapon. The devs told them flat out "this ruleset may not be for you."

    It comes down to the developers intent for how the game is supposed to be played. 
    Griefing is 100% about the "intent"

    How its done is irrelevant.

    *If we shouldn't, we couldn't* is not a fair or valid argument.
    It's about the intent of the developers.

    Example: Day of Defeat Omaha map. The Allies spawn in boats being fired down on by machineguns from the Axis defenses. It is 100% intended by the developers that the Axis are supposed to kill the Allies in their spawn. Preferably repeatedly, because it becomes very difficult to defend if they start pushing up the cliffs.

    Example 2: Team Fortress Classic Attack/Defend game mode. The defense sets up in fortifications overlooking the offense's spawn room. It is by intentional design that you can fire into the spawn and kill the offense.

    Example 3: Planetside 1/2. You can go into the enemy base and camp their spawn rooms. In fact, it is required to camp their spawn rooms if you ever hope to capture a defended base.
    Good examples of when spawn camping is not griefing.

    Example of griefing with spawn camping

    Johnny is bored, he's a level 60. Johnny gets his kicks going to the level 20-30 zone, picking a a low level victim, killing them and spawn camping them,  over and over and over until they get fed up and log out.

    He then moves on to his next victim.
    That's not griefing either, unless you're prepared to elaborate your scenario. 

    • How do you know what gives Johnny his kicks?
    • How does Johnny know the low level is having an emotional response?
    • Is Johnny getting points for the kills?
    • Is bored Johnny trying to instigate PVP with higher level people by having these players call out faction/guild?
    • Does Johnny want mobs or mats there?
    • Why are the players being referred to as "victims", it's a clearly a PVP area.

    Need more info.
    MadFrenchieCaffynated
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505

    • Is bored Johnny trying to instigate PVP with higher level people by having these players call out faction/guild?
    The entire post was a reach, but this takes the cake.  Johnny can instigate PvP with higher level people by attacking....  Well, higher level people.  In their higher level zones.
    GdemamiHatefull

    image
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    laserit said:
    laserit said:
    laserit said:

    Spawn camping to defend an objective is not griefing.

    Spawn camping to ruin someones day for shits and giggles is griefing.

    Is that agreeable?
    Not necessarily. Killing people, standing on their corpse and proclaiming to everyone around "I da best" then doing it again if they come back is the intended purpose of some games. In the Crowfall alpha people were complaining about being killed repeatedly before they could even make a basic weapon. The devs told them flat out "this ruleset may not be for you."

    It comes down to the developers intent for how the game is supposed to be played. 
    Griefing is 100% about the "intent"

    How its done is irrelevant.

    *If we shouldn't, we couldn't* is not a fair or valid argument.
    It's about the intent of the developers.

    Example: Day of Defeat Omaha map. The Allies spawn in boats being fired down on by machineguns from the Axis defenses. It is 100% intended by the developers that the Axis are supposed to kill the Allies in their spawn. Preferably repeatedly, because it becomes very difficult to defend if they start pushing up the cliffs.

    Example 2: Team Fortress Classic Attack/Defend game mode. The defense sets up in fortifications overlooking the offense's spawn room. It is by intentional design that you can fire into the spawn and kill the offense.

    Example 3: Planetside 1/2. You can go into the enemy base and camp their spawn rooms. In fact, it is required to camp their spawn rooms if you ever hope to capture a defended base.
    Good examples of when spawn camping is not griefing.

    Example of griefing with spawn camping

    Johnny is bored, he's a level 60. Johnny gets his kicks going to the level 20-30 zone, picking a a low level victim, killing them and spawn camping them,  over and over and over until they get fed up and log out.

    He then moves on to his next victim.
    That's not griefing either, unless you're prepared to elaborate your scenario. 

    • How do you know what gives Johnny his kicks?
    • How does Johnny know the low level is having an emotional response?
    • Is Johnny getting points for the kills?
    • Is bored Johnny trying to instigate PVP with higher level people by having these players call out faction/guild?
    • Does Johnny want mobs or mats there?
    • Why are the players being referred to as "victims", it's a clearly a PVP area.

    Need more info.
    Let's make the game WoW

    • Johnny must get some kind of gratification
    • Sometimes he gets a nasty whisper, sometimes he doesn't
    • Nope: he gets no honorable kills or loot
    • Nope: when help comes, Johnny heads for the hills
    • Mobs are grey and worth nothing and Johnny leveled his crafting past the mats in that zone level
    • They are referred to as victims because they have a zero % chance to defend themselves
    Gdemami

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    laserit said:
    laserit said:
    laserit said:
    laserit said:

    Spawn camping to defend an objective is not griefing.

    Spawn camping to ruin someones day for shits and giggles is griefing.

    Is that agreeable?
    Not necessarily. Killing people, standing on their corpse and proclaiming to everyone around "I da best" then doing it again if they come back is the intended purpose of some games. In the Crowfall alpha people were complaining about being killed repeatedly before they could even make a basic weapon. The devs told them flat out "this ruleset may not be for you."

    It comes down to the developers intent for how the game is supposed to be played. 
    Griefing is 100% about the "intent"

    How its done is irrelevant.

    *If we shouldn't, we couldn't* is not a fair or valid argument.
    It's about the intent of the developers.

    Example: Day of Defeat Omaha map. The Allies spawn in boats being fired down on by machineguns from the Axis defenses. It is 100% intended by the developers that the Axis are supposed to kill the Allies in their spawn. Preferably repeatedly, because it becomes very difficult to defend if they start pushing up the cliffs.

    Example 2: Team Fortress Classic Attack/Defend game mode. The defense sets up in fortifications overlooking the offense's spawn room. It is by intentional design that you can fire into the spawn and kill the offense.

    Example 3: Planetside 1/2. You can go into the enemy base and camp their spawn rooms. In fact, it is required to camp their spawn rooms if you ever hope to capture a defended base.
    Good examples of when spawn camping is not griefing.

    Example of griefing with spawn camping

    Johnny is bored, he's a level 60. Johnny gets his kicks going to the level 20-30 zone, picking a a low level victim, killing them and spawn camping them,  over and over and over until they get fed up and log out.

    He then moves on to his next victim.
    That's not griefing either, unless you're prepared to elaborate your scenario. 

    • How do you know what gives Johnny his kicks?
    • How does Johnny know the low level is having an emotional response?
    • Is Johnny getting points for the kills?
    • Is bored Johnny trying to instigate PVP with higher level people by having these players call out faction/guild?
    • Does Johnny want mobs or mats there?
    • Why are the players being referred to as "victims", it's a clearly a PVP area.

    Need more info.
    Let's make the game WoW

    • Johnny must get some kind of gratification
    • Sometimes he gets a nasty whisper, sometimes he doesn't
    • Nope: he gets no honorable kills or loot
    • Nope: when help comes, Johnny heads for the hills
    • Mobs are grey and worth nothing and Johnny leveled his crafting past the mats in that zone level
    • They are referred to as victims because they have a zero % chance to defend themselves
    Johnny is a bored scrub.

    The "victims" aren't victims because they are aware of what PVP is and have the option to go elsewhere safer...

    Griefing is something that warrants a warning > suspension > ban.

    "Ermahgad some high level guy keeps killing me" =/= warning > suspension > ban

    Or does it?

    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Sign In or Register to comment.