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"The Pantheon Difference" (from the official Pantheon website)

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  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 224
    edited July 2017
    Kyleran said:
    All I want to say is I hope at some point all the posters here get a chance to play together.  Would be awesome to group up with you guys/ladies in a random group :smile:  
    Or maybe drag a train to zone through your dungeon group. ;)
    They need to get the bard in for the great trains.
    AE Fear and speed makes for a great train.

    On the subject of alts, EQ seemed alt friend to me but then I only played it early on and left after the 3rd expansion. By the time I left I had 3 characters at the max level. Two of them did do raid content although I preferred to take my main character a bard.
  • KilsinKilsin Member RarePosts: 507
    Mendel said:
    Kilsin said:
    ste2000 said:
    Kilsin said:

    I think that is what resonates with me the most, the "replayability" so to speak, if you can experience something new on a different character (different class/race) that you missed the first time around then to me personally, that is alt-friendly. I don't personally see how alt-friendly = easy power level to max level, that is just called power levelling
    That shows that you really have problem with gaming terminology.
    Power Leveling doesn't mean  what you just described, at all.
    Power Leveling means that the character has been given an external boost either by other players or by powerful gear (Twinking), which allows him to accelerate the speed of leveling in an articial way than initially designed for its level.

    Kilsin said:
    ... and shows that the games levelling curve is too easy and some companies do this intentionally when they want you to feel instant gratification and rush you to where they think the action is (end game, raiding, PvP, battlegrounds etc.).

    You just described what "Alt Friendly" means for most people.
    When you claim that the game is "Alt Friendly" you need to understand that's what most people think about, whether you like it or not.

    I politely asked you to link me the definitive terminology, if you can point me to where it is written in stone what "alt-friendly" means and not just argue in favour of your own opinion/preference then I would be happy to read up and change my views, but until you show me something, I won't be arguing with you over opinions, my friend.

    Twinking = Helping a lower level character by giving them higher level and more powerful weapons/armour/buffs to make it easier for them

    Power Levelling = Powering your way to max level as fast and efficiently as possible

    Alts are not defined by either of these things, they are alternate characters to play when and how you see fit.
    I think that since you introduced the term "alt-friendly" to the conversation, the onus is on you to state what you mean, @Kilsin.  Since you challenged other members to define the term you're using, it becomes an example of vagueness.  State what you mean and strive to minimize the number of ways your statement can be interpreted.  Don't forget that there's always the option to not say anything at all.

    When I saw the term "alt-friendly" I thought of ways VR might implement to pass equipment to alternative characters.  Shared-bank slots / storage, in-game e-mail capable of attaching items / money, etc.   Creating an alternate character has far more implications that just "replayability" -- there's also extending single character storage limitations (mules) and enabling a player to circumvent game limits, such as crafting.

    If the game provides so many official ways to bypass elements of the game design, how solid are those design decisions in the first place?  Alts were (or became) an accepted way to cheat.  One hundred bank slots not enough?  Create an alt.  Want to craft an item that requires an component made with another craft?  Create an alt.  Class restricted crafts, like EQ1's shaman and rogue, or restricted crafting, like LotRO, both encourage creation of single-purpose alts that only allow a single player to do everything they need for themselves.

    Nothing about "alt-friendly" suggests that it is also "group- or community-friendly."  People loot all the items because 'their alt needs that'.  Instead of a character buying an item from another player, they pass the components to an alt and build the item themselves.  Neither situation involves the larger community and doesn't promote player interaction.

    So, tell me again how Pantheon is supposed to encourage community development when there's a mechanism (or more than one) that lets each player control a hoard of alts that effectively makes them completely self-sufficient?  That sounds distinctly like a solo-oriented game, not in line with how Pantheon is being promoted.

    VR is definitely sending mixed messages by not being concise.


    Edit to remove duplicate quotation.
    Regarding your statement "I think that since you introduced the term "alt-friendly" to the conversation, the onus is on you to state what you mean, @Kilsin."

    I did, both in my original reply to it and one of my explanations of what it means to me is even quoted in your above reply but I was told I was wrong by one person who then went on to explain why their personal understanding of the phrase "alt-friendly" was the proper meaning understood by "most" people and yet no evidence of this could be provided.

    I am not going to continue this any longer than it needs to be discussed but it is interesting to see someone call me out over a phrase so I tried to understand what it means to them and how they came to understand the phrase, it just goes to show that it is something that is probably based on each individuals game experiences and how alts were used in those game experiences. World of Warcraft was listed which is interesting as it is probably the furthest away from Pantheon you can get in terms of comparison so I am not sure why it was used but it is still interesting nevertheless.

    If by mixed messages you mean by using a phrase and clarifying what it means to me twice then I think we both disagree on the meaning of mixed! lol ;)

    The VR message is clear, check the website in my signature for all the information you will ever need for this phase of development, and my personal understanding of the phrase was explained, so what message it mixed?
    svanndrivendawndcutbi001

    Community & Web Manager | Visionary Realms, Inc.
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  • jpedrote52jpedrote52 Member UncommonPosts: 112
    edited July 2017
    @ste2000

    Take a step back and start taking information into context, alright mate.

    To me "alt-friendly" means easy powerleveling to max level and catch-up mechanics (such as gear, rep, currency, etc) that will reduce the gap between a player that plays a lot and a more casual player.

    But when Kilsin use the term "alt-friendly" not even for a second did I think he meant what I described above, you know why?, because I took is words inside the context of "Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen" MMORPG, and inside this context "alt-friendly" would never imply what I described above, because it simply does not fit the type of game Pantheon is aiming to be. So instead of arguing over definitions of gaming terms (which will never be universal, and will vary from gaming community from gaming community) , start taking them into context of said game.
    drivendawn
  • Kiori001Kiori001 Member UncommonPosts: 18
    I must admit that if I cannot do all content on one toon,  I will make an alt.  Another reason is I might have a static to group with on one toon,  if they are not available I will play an alt.  Then there is just the fun of trying another class.  A deep immersive world which it takes some time to get to end game is actually more likely to make me interested in alts.

    I remember commenting once on a Pantheon Facebook thread that I would like level locking      ( turning off xp ).  I would have liked this in Vanguard when I did the armour set quest in that Elven town( So long ago that I can no longer remember the places name ).  I had kind of out lvled the location by the time I had completed all the bits and pieces for my armour set and helped all in the group that I did it with complete it also.

    I see turning off xp as a perk,  if its not ingame and to be honest I doubt it will be,  but if it was I would still make an alt or two.  But being able to turn off xp so I could fully experience a location I was in would be great.  Completing stuff over level I find meh,  but if a great quest series as the Armour set was in Vanguard I would complete anyway for the acheivement.


  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,202
    Im almost certain VG had level locking, though it might not have been in from the start.
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,416
    edited August 2017
    Nope it wasn't in at the start but yeah you could slow down your xp rate.  Not sure if you could completely stop it as I never used it. I had three top level characters by the time it was introduced. 




  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 6,964
    The Pantheon Difference: Low Production Value
    drivendawn
  • Kiori001Kiori001 Member UncommonPosts: 18
    I cannot remember VG having level locking,  but my memory can be pretty porous :P.  I do remember EQ2 having this though.

    Possibly it came later,  but when I first did the armour quests at that Elven town it was not available.

    VG sure had its ups and downs initially but it turned out to be a great game in the end,  but by that time many had moved onto greener fields.  I still remember getting into the game for the first time.  I saw a tower,  went over,  entered and started climbing the steps.  As I stepped out on the balcony at the top the lag beast hit,  next thing I know I'm a piece of splat on the ground.

    I left and came back to the game about three times. I remember the 2nd time getting back into game and about two hours later getting a ping from a member of my old guild.  Not long after I was back in guild and being taken on a tour of the old port warehouse raid zone.  Saw a big eye for the first time and visited the dragon at the bottom.  Cheers Reverence,  good people,  good guild.  
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,599
    I don't remember level locking either but as poster above,my memory on some things can be very shotty.Yes Eq2 had level locking ,it can be a nice idea but i prefer to see levels act more like aging and not some computer code to manipulate a number for some reason,example to not gray out drops or to build AA's.
    I prefer to see brad completely throw out his old way of thinking,remove everything that looks fake,looks like computer code and make the world look plausibly real which also means NO yellow markers over anyone's head or floating arrows in the air guiding you somewhere,like Waypoints for example.

    The whole new era of gamer really wants to ruin immersion and dumb games down with what they call quality of life improvements,to me another word for LAZY gamer.I do not want o see automation,auto pathing,auto movement,i want a world where we truly look to be living a role playing life.That means starting as a peasant and earning our way through the ranks.,NO easy cash shop buying to skip over effort.
    kadajvolaju

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    Wizardry said:

    I prefer to see brad completely throw out his old way of thinking
    Not going to happen.

    This is the main problem with MMOs today. Dinosaur developers who should retire and free up the competition for new, fresh devs without all the old baggage.
    kadajvolajuSiugdrivendawnMendelXthos
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,599
    edited September 2017
    I like a lot of what i read there in the OP but it still leaves a lot of room to question specifics.

    "mobs might be a lot tougher" than perhaps what we are used to.This should NOT limit gaming to specific gear or tiers of gear to be able to fight a Boss.I cannot stand Wow...FFXIV design of item levels and tiers,it turns me right off.

    As well just because something is tough and a game is geared towards grouping does not mean it should completely remove the possibility of SOLO.This is where a very good overall design comes into play and idk but it is going to be really tough for Brad to pull it off seeing how he has developed past games.

    I can think sort of like how Brad thinks based on the past.Example perhaps your group will be FORCED to have a Mezzer,forced to have other specific roles.A great design would NOT need that,yes perhaps for best efficiency but there should be an open door for players to be creative on setups of both character and group or to even attempt to solo or duo .

    Another example of BAD design is LEASHING mobs.This leads to the Solo ability,a player should be able to carefully pull one by one so as to not face a whole group of mobs at one time.This also means mobs have to be moving to allow a patient player to wait for that opportunity for a solo pull.Game design is not something i or anyone can sum up in one topic or a few paragraphs,it really needs a LOT of pre planning and work before even starting.

    Keyword "efficiency".


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • drivendawndrivendawn Member RarePosts: 2,124
    The Pantheon Difference: Low Production Value
    For a AAA sure, for an indie? No absolutely not if you ask me
    dcutbi001
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,202
    The only thing I remember about level locking in VG was that every once in a while someone would ask in general "What the hell is this ability for?  Why would I want to stop xp???".  Maybe 2 people ever really used it.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,483
    svann said:
    The only thing I remember about level locking in VG was that every once in a while someone would ask in general "What the hell is this ability for?  Why would I want to stop xp???".  Maybe 2 people ever really used it.
    svann said:
    The only thing I remember about level locking in VG was that every once in a while someone would ask in general "What the hell is this ability for?  Why would I want to stop xp???".  Maybe 2 people ever really used it.
    My guess is to prevent leveling past the content, I believe some dungeons took so long it was possible to do so.

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  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    edited September 2017
    bcbully said:
    Here's the thing guys. Without amazing pvp systems Pantheon will be a extremely nich. It wont reach more than 150k total players. That's even being a bit optimistic...


    PvP causes far more problems in MMORPG's than it solves.

    If you want PvP, there are entire genres dedicated to that gaming style.

    Post edited by Nightbringe1 on

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
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  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    svann said:
    The only thing I remember about level locking in VG was that every once in a while someone would ask in general "What the hell is this ability for?  Why would I want to stop xp???".  Maybe 2 people ever really used it.


    I am a frequent abuser of Level Locking.

    I prefer to experience as much content as possible at the appropriate level, and have no compulsion to race to level cap.

    Kiori001

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,852
    Kyleran said:
    svann said:
    The only thing I remember about level locking in VG was that every once in a while someone would ask in general "What the hell is this ability for?  Why would I want to stop xp???".  Maybe 2 people ever really used it.
    svann said:
    The only thing I remember about level locking in VG was that every once in a while someone would ask in general "What the hell is this ability for?  Why would I want to stop xp???".  Maybe 2 people ever really used it.
    My guess is to prevent leveling past the content, I believe some dungeons took so long it was possible to do so.
    In EQ2 (and I think it worked this way or similarly in VG) you could lock your Adventure, AA, and Crafting levels. Players level lock for xp and loot drops, but especially for AA. If you lock your adventure level and keep leveling AA then you have access to much more powerful traits and skill effects for that adventure level. There's a bit more to it, but that's the general gist.

    It was a cool bandaid fix for poor design. Hopefully this is being taken into consideration so the game won't need level locking, mentoring, or any other kludge.

    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

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  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    svann said:
    The only thing I remember about level locking in VG was that every once in a while someone would ask in general "What the hell is this ability for?  Why would I want to stop xp???".  Maybe 2 people ever really used it.
    svann said:
    The only thing I remember about level locking in VG was that every once in a while someone would ask in general "What the hell is this ability for?  Why would I want to stop xp???".  Maybe 2 people ever really used it.
    My guess is to prevent leveling past the content, I believe some dungeons took so long it was possible to do so.
    In EQ2 (and I think it worked this way or similarly in VG) you could lock your Adventure, AA, and Crafting levels. Players level lock for xp and loot drops, but especially for AA. If you lock your adventure level and keep leveling AA then you have access to much more powerful traits and skill effects for that adventure level. There's a bit more to it, but that's the general gist.

    It was a cool bandaid fix for poor design. Hopefully this is being taken into consideration so the game won't need level locking, mentoring, or any other kludge.

    Diverting 100% xp in AA effectively level locks your character in Both EQ and EQ2, allowing you to experience level appropriate group content while solo. All it takes is lots of time and effort.

    EQ2 also supports disabling experience based on type. You can, for example, disable xp from killing mobs while gaining xp from quest completion.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • RhyaukRhyauk Member UncommonPosts: 16
    Watching a few of the videos on the Pantheon site I can't help but get a bit of a Vanguard SoH feel, which kind of sparks my interest.  I'll keep an eye on this game.
  • XthosXthos Member UncommonPosts: 2,711
    edited September 2017
    Wizardry said:

    I prefer to see brad completely throw out his old way of thinking
    Not going to happen.

    This is the main problem with MMOs today. Dinosaur developers who should retire and free up the competition for new, fresh devs without all the old baggage.

    I am mainly interested because he is not throwing everything out.  He is a big part of two of my favorite mmos of all time, so I am hopeful that he can add a third on the list.  I am tired of the super p2w and/or arcadish mmos.  I look forward to a updated refresh, and supposedly no cash shop and a sub...We wll see, but it is not what we have been getting.  The new/fresh hasn't been that new/fresh, it is mostly scaled down cash grabs...So compared to that, this retread is kinda new/fresh I guess.  
    Kiori001svann
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