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Which MMO most promoted griefing?

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  • PoliticaldadPoliticaldad Member UncommonPosts: 104
    Mortal Online 
  • esarphieesarphie Member UncommonPosts: 75
    Two come to mind... Ultima Online, and Lineage II. 

    Lineage was especially bad at launch, not because of the Asian bot armies, and the exploits that had been fixed for months overseas but were imported whole cloth to North America, but because of two core mechanics: First, really low level characters would drop nothing if killed, and second, to-hit was entirely level based, and damage was completely weapon based... and anyone could wield any weapon, as long as they could afford the insane vendor prices. Soooo, sitting at the only exit from town was always a bunch of level 4 characters with one-hit kill weapons, swiping at everyone who was trying to enter or leave, and killing well over half the people in reach.
  • SpiiderSpiider Member UncommonPosts: 657
    Eve online and rust (much much later)

    No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.

  • SomethingUnusualSomethingUnusual Member UncommonPosts: 545
    Is it griefing when someone dominates the Monopoly board? No. Is it griefing when you lose at checkers? No. 

    Griefing is a myth. Its winning or losing. Grow a pair.
    RhoklawIselin

    Death stalks me... Well, figuratively that is. I get killed and people take my stuff.

  • HatefullHatefull Member RarePosts: 1,595
    Is it griefing when someone dominates the Monopoly board? No. Is it griefing when you lose at checkers? No. 

    Griefing is a myth. Its winning or losing. Grow a pair.
    That is an over simplification of the topic. Yes, in PvP there is usually a winner and a loser and most people that play PvP games are aware of this and can take a beating without batting an eye.

    While this topic is highly subjective, I think people can agree that there is a difference, if not in mechanics at least in the spirit of PvP vs Griefing. 

    Your final line "grow a pair' is awesome. I wonder how you would take it if Conor McGregor decided to beat the shit out of you every time you stepped out your front door. Obviously, there is nothing you can do about it (don't say other wise, you know it's true) beyond calling the police to come and keep him off you. However, if the cops won't come, what then, sit there looking out the window wishing you could go get a cupcake? Hoping this beast gets bored and leaves? Yeah, nope, the door opens you get a beating and back to the window with you.

    Same concept here, some people can take a PvP loss, but when it comes to corpse camping or other shenanigans that keep you from being able to even play the game, it's just grief. Some games are designed with this in mind and they make it pretty well known before you log in. Especially in the case of Eve...if you do not realize that it's going to happen then that is your issue.

    Anyway, it's not as simple as grow a pair, nor is it anything like a board game, that is an asinine comparison.
    Jean-Luc_PicardlahnmirEldurianConstantineMerusKyleranLynxJSAVyntMadFrenchielaseritRufusUO

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Is it griefing when someone dominates the Monopoly board? No. Is it griefing when you lose at checkers? No. 

    Griefing is a myth. Its winning or losing. Grow a pair.
    Checkers and Monopoly are games with clear victory objectives. Pursuing those objectives is not griefing because your intent is to win. Now if you were to put yourself in a position where your victory was assured and then intentionally drag things out to toy with your opponents all the while talking crap and rubbing their nose in it, that would be griefing because your intent is piss people off.

    If you can't see the difference between pursuing victory and intentionally trying to ruin your opponents day, and think the the latter is a myth... then I think you are the one in need of growing something. Though probably something a bit higher up on your body than a pair.
  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,186
    Hatefull said:

    While this topic is highly subjective, I think people can agree that there is a difference, if not in mechanics at least in the spirit of PvP vs Griefing. .
    The keyword there is "spirit". For a short time, UO had included in its Code of Conduct a section on behavior/actions adhering to the spirit of the game. However, discerning intent - or at least getting someone to own up to actual intent - is far harder than any other form of moderation or governance. 
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 5,797
    Is it griefing when someone dominates the Monopoly board? No. Is it griefing when you lose at checkers? No. 

    Griefing is a myth. Its winning or losing. Grow a pair.
    Clearly you don't understand the term of griefing. Griefing is when someone takes advantage of gear, level or stat progression in which their opponent has no means of defending against or winning. So, if we are to use your analogy of say Monopoly. It would be like someone playing by themselves for 100 dice rolls and then someone else joins. Let me know how that turns out. Thank you for upholding the need for stereotypes.
    HatefullFlyByKnight

  • centkincentkin Member UncommonPosts: 1,373
    The next tier up is spawn camping.  Where you get killed then when you respawn are instantly killed again and again until you give up and stop playing for however long they decide to be there.  This is especially bad with exp loss, but simple denial of the ability to play period is sufficient.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member EpicPosts: 7,608
    I don't really think Lineage 2 supported griefing because they gave you a few ways to avoid it.  If you were being hounded in one zone there are lots of other equal level zones to go to, to complete your grind.  If you stocked blessed scrolls, you could instantly port to another location when you saw that red name running towards you or if he didn't one shot you it was easy to teleport before the second hit.  If in a guild you could could easily escape and come back with your mates.  Ruined his day because he missed what he thought was going to be an easy kill.

    Games that support eternal stun locking are a different matter.
    Hatefull

    “We see the world, not as it is, but as we are or, as we are conditioned to see it.”   ― Stephen R. Covey

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 11,588
    Any game where PVP happens in the open world with no flagging or PVE-only zones. Even the WOW PVP servers had quest hub griefing of lowbees and the ever popular killing of the quest NPCs.

    It's the armpit of MMO PVP and there are always some who love armpits.
    LynxJSAMadFrenchieKyleranFlyByKnightOctagon7711
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,186
    I don't really think Lineage 2 supported griefing because they gave you a few ways to avoid it.  If you were being hounded in one zone there are lots of other equal level zones to go to, to complete your grind.  If you stocked blessed scrolls, you could instantly port to another location when you saw that red name running towards you or if he didn't one shot you it was easy to teleport before the second hit.  If in a guild you could could easily escape and come back with your mates.  Ruined his day because he missed what he thought was going to be an easy kill.

    Games that support eternal stun locking are a different matter.
    I take it you started playing sometime around 2005 or later. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 30,464
    LynxJSA said:
    I don't really think Lineage 2 supported griefing because they gave you a few ways to avoid it.  If you were being hounded in one zone there are lots of other equal level zones to go to, to complete your grind.  If you stocked blessed scrolls, you could instantly port to another location when you saw that red name running towards you or if he didn't one shot you it was easy to teleport before the second hit.  If in a guild you could could easily escape and come back with your mates.  Ruined his day because he missed what he thought was going to be an easy kill.

    Games that support eternal stun locking are a different matter.
    I take it you started playing sometime around 2005 or later. 
    I played L2 in US servers from launch plus 6 months and was only PKd twice.

    Not sure where you experienced all of this griefing.

    "I should run a marathon backwards. So I could see what second place look like" Royce da 5'9"

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, back in EVE until then

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 2,821
    Okay, if we're going to be dumb;

    If OWPVP is the "armpit" of MMOS, the people who make these types of comments are the female orafices of MMOs. 

    Stop playing OWPVP games and bringing your helpless, passive aggressive, allergic to everything, Munchausen by MMO complaining and whining to every discussion.

    All these folks do is use the silliest analogies, and try to convince how sane they are compared to others who are capable of playing a game without acting like their genitals are getting stepped on.

    It's the SAME people EVERY TIME. Are you folks continually playing OWPVP games getting your feelings hurt or are you still projecting bad feels from 199x when that guy one time did something to you in 8bit?

    Cut it out. You don't have a clue what griefing is because gauging how soft and whiny some of you can be authorities, lawyers, and day time talk shows would be involved if it happened to you.

    Do people grief in games? Yes, all games where humans can interact. The more interaction options the more opportunity for bad behavior. Is it a good reason for some nozzles to blanket flame every OWPVP player and game? Nope.
    KyleranMadFrenchieRhoklaw
    • If a game has non-blondes with freckles, it's political
    • If a game has a female lead, it's political
    • If a game has non-white people, it's political
    • If a game has non-heterosexual people in it, it's political
    • If a game tries to avoid having underage objectification in it, it's political
    • If a game attempts to curb hate speech and toxicity, it's political
    • If a game removes crying FROG or confederate imagery, it's f#$%ing political


    There's always going to be some slack jawed yokel peon who takes stuff like this as a shot at THEIR liberty and freedom, and that's what is hilarious.

    Working hard to live, and working hard to respectfully EXIST are not the same.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 11,588
    edited August 2017
    Okay, if we're going to be dumb;

    If OWPVP is the "armpit" of MMOS, the people who make these types of comments are the female orafices of MMOs. 

    Stop playing OWPVP games and bringing your helpless, passive aggressive, allergic to everything, Munchausen by MMO complaining and whining to every discussion.

    All these folks do is use the silliest analogies, and try to convince how sane they are compared to others who are capable of playing a game without acting like their genitals are getting stepped on.

    It's the SAME people EVERY TIME. Are you folks continually playing OWPVP games getting your feelings hurt or are you still projecting bad feels from 199x when that guy one time did something to you in 8bit?

    Cut it out. You don't have a clue what griefing is because gauging how soft and whiny some of you can be authorities, lawyers, and day time talk shows would be involved if it happened to you.

    Do people grief in games? Yes, all games where humans can interact. The more interaction options the more opportunity for bad behavior. Is it a good reason for some nozzles to blanket flame every OWPVP player and game? Nope.
    I thought we were talking about griefing... no? I'm confused are you defending griefing or only the games where it's possible?

    I was never griefed in DAoC nor WAR nor GW2 nor ESO. Died in PVP many times but that's a whole different story.

    There are asshats who get their jollies from preventing others from playing. Are you saying games where that's enabled that is good design?
    Post edited by Iselin on
    GdemamiKyleran
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • AoriAori Member EpicPosts: 4,036
    In Lineage 2, I've deleveled people causing them to lose months worth of XP, from PK to training, I've done it all to enemies. I've even singlehandedly disbanded alliances to get away from being targeted by me. I've made 2 people quit the game who were long time players.

    You could quite literally ruin peoples experience permanently in Lineage 2.
    Hatefull
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member EpicPosts: 7,608
    LynxJSA said:
    I don't really think Lineage 2 supported griefing because they gave you a few ways to avoid it.  If you were being hounded in one zone there are lots of other equal level zones to go to, to complete your grind.  If you stocked blessed scrolls, you could instantly port to another location when you saw that red name running towards you or if he didn't one shot you it was easy to teleport before the second hit.  If in a guild you could could easily escape and come back with your mates.  Ruined his day because he missed what he thought was going to be an easy kill.

    Games that support eternal stun locking are a different matter.
    I take it you started playing sometime around 2005 or later. 
    Probably.  I think the grind griefed more people than anything else.
    LynxJSA

    “We see the world, not as it is, but as we are or, as we are conditioned to see it.”   ― Stephen R. Covey

  • DrunkWolfDrunkWolf Member UncommonPosts: 1,412
    i see a few post about ole age of conan, yeah it was open pvp and there was alot of killing but it was a ton of fun. the huge battles that would start up because of it was great.

    we use to battle for hours over a damn wagon that summoned mobs to kill and level up. it made it interesting fighting other groups who wanted that wagon for themselves.

    The problem is so many people think they want pvp but then they join the pvp server get killed and quit the game. when they should of been on a pve server to begin with.

    you might call being killed while questing griefing, as i call it a bigger challenge because the game itself is already to damn easy. having to fight others and get some friends to back you up for some good battles is fun to some of us.
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 1,718
    DrunkWolf said:
    i see a few post about ole age of conan, yeah it was open pvp and there was alot of killing but it was a ton of fun. the huge battles that would start up because of it was great.

    we use to battle for hours over a damn wagon that summoned mobs to kill and level up. it made it interesting fighting other groups who wanted that wagon for themselves.

    The problem is so many people think they want pvp but then they join the pvp server get killed and quit the game. when they should of been on a pve server to begin with.

    you might call being killed while questing griefing, as i call it a bigger challenge because the game itself is already to damn easy. having to fight others and get some friends to back you up for some good battles is fun to some of us.
    Absolutely! But what you describe doesn't come close to grieving, its just PVP. Grieving is killing a level one at the entry point of the game over and over again for hours/days/weeks with your guild of max level characters until he or she quits. Its about the absolute unfair, about ruining someones experience, intent.

    What you describe is just good old PVP and I wouldn't want to miss it.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Kyleran
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,186
    Kyleran said:
    LynxJSA said:
    I don't really think Lineage 2 supported griefing because they gave you a few ways to avoid it.  If you were being hounded in one zone there are lots of other equal level zones to go to, to complete your grind.  If you stocked blessed scrolls, you could instantly port to another location when you saw that red name running towards you or if he didn't one shot you it was easy to teleport before the second hit.  If in a guild you could could easily escape and come back with your mates.  Ruined his day because he missed what he thought was going to be an easy kill.

    Games that support eternal stun locking are a different matter.
    I take it you started playing sometime around 2005 or later. 
    I played L2 in US servers from launch plus 6 months and was only PKd twice.

    Not sure where you experienced all of this griefing.
    Lionna, mostly starter areas, especially the Dwarven area.  You're either full of it, forgetful, or mistaken if you contend there was no griefing, especially fromthe botters, in early L2. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 30,464
    edited August 2017
    LynxJSA said:
    Kyleran said:
    LynxJSA said:
    I don't really think Lineage 2 supported griefing because they gave you a few ways to avoid it.  If you were being hounded in one zone there are lots of other equal level zones to go to, to complete your grind.  If you stocked blessed scrolls, you could instantly port to another location when you saw that red name running towards you or if he didn't one shot you it was easy to teleport before the second hit.  If in a guild you could could easily escape and come back with your mates.  Ruined his day because he missed what he thought was going to be an easy kill.

    Games that support eternal stun locking are a different matter.
    I take it you started playing sometime around 2005 or later. 
    I played L2 in US servers from launch plus 6 months and was only PKd twice.

    Not sure where you experienced all of this griefing.
    Lionna, mostly starter areas, especially the Dwarven area.  You're either full of it, forgetful, or mistaken if you contend there was no griefing, especially fromthe botters, in early L2. 
    Fact remains I was killed 2 times in 6 months, maybe I was just very good at evading asshats, it is a specialty of mine.

    Also I didn't spend much time in starter areas and I never rolled a dwarf so perhaps I just missed all of the action.

    I was actually friends with the Asian gold farmers who regularly let me group with them, even though I was a SR.

    We couldn't chat much, but they knew enough to get their point across when necessary.



    Post edited by Kyleran on

    "I should run a marathon backwards. So I could see what second place look like" Royce da 5'9"

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, back in EVE until then

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 7,580
    Okay, if we're going to be dumb;

    If OWPVP is the "armpit" of MMOS, the people who make these types of comments are the female orafices of MMOs.
    Is that the average griefer? A sexist nerd?
    Well, not that I'm surprised...
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    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited August 2017
    Rhoklaw said:
    Is it griefing when someone dominates the Monopoly board? No. Is it griefing when you lose at checkers? No. 

    Griefing is a myth. Its winning or losing. Grow a pair.
    Clearly you don't understand the term of griefing. Griefing is when someone takes advantage of gear, level or stat progression in which their opponent has no means of defending against or winning. So, if we are to use your analogy of say Monopoly. It would be like someone playing by themselves for 100 dice rolls and then someone else joins. Let me know how that turns out. Thank you for upholding the need for stereotypes.
    That's not really griefing, that's using the disparity inherent in the game to your advantage. As you can see in my signature, I'm not a big fan of disparity either but they are separate subjects.

    Griefing is about intention. Griefing is driven by the specific intent to ruin someone else's gaming experience, AKA cause them grief.

    I'll give you two scenarios to highlight the difference.

    Scenario 1: Pirate Pete the high level sees Newby Ned who just started the game today. Newby Ned is farming NPCs that sometimes drop valuable items. Ones valuable even to veterans. He kills him, takes his stack of that items off his corpse, and goes on about his day.

    Scenario 2: Griefer Gary kills Pirate Pete, an evenly matched opponent, and takes his gear. PvP Pete respawns at the nearby bindpoint without gear. Despite the fact he gains nothing from further kills against Pirate Pete, Griefer Gary decides to camp the bindpoint for the next four hours because he loves "The sweet taste of his salty tears."

    Scenario 1 is not griefing. Pirate Pete's motivation for killing the newb was the loot. He didn't rub his nose in it or do anything to make the loss sting worse. He got his loot and went on about his business. The disparity doesn't matter, it was the intent of the action.

    Scenario 2 is griefing. Greifer Gary is killing specifically because his motivation is to ruin someone else's day. That is the classic definition of griefing. The fact that Gary had to kill him in an evenly matched fight to camp him doesn't matter. It was the intent of his actions.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
    Jean-Luc_PicardGdemamiKyleran
  • klash2defklash2def Member RarePosts: 1,182
    EVE because its a whole other level and type of grief that happens in game.. its literally sabotage.. getting ganked in a open world themepark game is one thing..you can log out of wow if the pvp is too hard, get gear and try again later.. not in eve.  getting on the wrong side of a corp is a whole other thing..log out and come back the same people are sabotaging you. no escape unless  you uninstall. 
    GdemamiKyleran
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  • SomethingUnusualSomethingUnusual Member UncommonPosts: 545
    Let me clarify... Is it possible and within the rules of the game being played? If the answer is yes, the losing party is just that, the loser. After all... GAME. Back to the monopoly statement. One player can easily dominate the other players, if the other players are getting mad about losing and flipping the board and quitting. They're the asshole, not the dominating player. Change monopoly with any game ever. Still a game. Be butthurt all you want to, flip my board and I'll not be inviting you for another game. Beat me, oh well, I lost, life goes on. 

    If you don't like a game with rules that enable. Then don't play it. And certainly don't try to cry about it... Admit it's not the game for you instead of being the asshole that complains that the game isn't fair. 

    KyleranHatefull

    Death stalks me... Well, figuratively that is. I get killed and people take my stuff.

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