So you're saying I am delusional but not an asshole?
...another of your 'others use logic' ?
Oh. So you weren't being sarcastic by saying "ouch"? Well you're an enigma mate. When you put something such as an ouch out there, you have to ready yourself for a lot of different interpretations.
Anyways, I am sure backing up your argument by making sounds is a solid proof of others not using logic. ^^
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Eve isn't a grief-fest nightmare at all, the game is what it is, the so called griefer corps and individuals are a must in the game or the whole thing would stagnant to hell and become a trading sim.
Not my playstyle, but they do force people to engage in conflict or at least better organise themselves and/or never leave a station ever.
Worst games for griefing I have experienced are now failed or low pop, so that in itself should say that rampant griefing is a game killer and pandering to it is a very short term and dumb position for a company to actively pursue.
So if a company did support it you are left with a rather confusing conflict of interest, but there are so many fast burn, rapid turnover cookie cutter MMO's being churn out by some publishers, maybe there is a formula where this is beneficial.
It's quite simple really. The mechanic that promotes griefing is PvP. Anything with PvP in it generally promotes griefing. The only thing that deters griefing are mechanics put in place to stop it, such as specific zones like DAoC's frontiers and SWG's PvP flag system. To ask which game promoted griefing the worst is irrelevant. They are all equally annoying in one way or another.
Although I don't like PvP in mmorpgs, I would not say pvp equals griefing. Pvp can be honest challenge between players like any sport is, while griefing is the act of feeling good by causing misery to someone else. So a pvp player kills someone for the challenge, glory, loot, power, etc, but a griefer kills because they are sad personalities who can only feel joy by trying to make others more miserable than they are.
You know by your definition when someone ninja-pulls a boss to wipe an unready raid is not an asshole--he is just doing PvE.
You are wasting your time, his thought processes are so very different than most people and mostly out of step with the norm.
In D&D terms he's probably a chaotic neutral.
I always felt chaotic neutral was the best neutral along the good/evil neutral axis. To care about societal norms and laws more than morality sounds like a horrible existence to be honest even though Lawful Neutral is probably the most common alignment IRL. CN at least combine their apathy with a free spirit.
No. His problem is that his logic rarely works, and even when it does work it's often obvious he's making up ridiculous scenarios just to avoid being wrong.
"I killed the easy target for four hours for the PvPz! Not because I enjoy watching them rage!"
Right. And I gargle salt water and drink shots of vinegar when I have a sore throat because I love the flavor.
These threads always suck because they always turn into a way for some extra moist carebear type to complain about normal PVP as if it's grief.
Griefing is something malicious, nefarious, biased, and unforgivingly persistent.
Which is why although I've been ganked many times in EVE, rare if ever was it what I term as griefing.
Closest thing to griefing I expereienced was the war dec mechanic, but just my opinion as it is mostly utilized by the players to camp PVE players in stations for weeks on end or rack up easy kills on the same.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There is no correlation between PvP being fair and this argument.
Priceless...
Its all about intent. Grieving is not about PVPing, its about taking enjoyment away from someone else which can also be done in a PVE setting. Grieving is also killing that rare elite before the other guy over and over again because you have an instant dps spell and he doesn't. Grieving can be harrasment through chat or flooding an Auction House with overpriced crap to run a specific guy out of buissiness.
And all that can be called 'playing the game' UNTIL your soul motivation is to take the enjoyment from the other person away, then its called grieving.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Or just allowed humans freedom, so that they acted in accordance with their nature when threat of retaliation or punishment is not present.
It is never the game's fault. It is sad that there has to be high level of regulation implemented in the games to prevent humans from acting naturally.
I would actually kind of disagree on that point. While few games promote "griefing" per say, a lot of games really make killing everyone you see who isn't friendly the most logical course of action.
In these scenarios the players aren't aiming to grief, but they are causing a lot more damage than would be needed if better systems were in place.
Example 1: In Darkfall when you are defeated in combat you are incapacitated. Not dead your character just lays there unable to do anything until you bleed out (Original) recover (Unholy Wars) or choose to allow yourself to die.
Other players have the choice to revive or finish you off while you are in this state. In order to loot you, it is required that they finish you off.
This is an example of a choice that needlessly encourages players to kill each other. If you get killed you will often go back to find most your stuff still on your body. If they simply allowed looting in the incapacitated state they could just take what they want and leave, as would be realistic. Instead the game encourages you to finish off every opponent you fight.
This scenario also applies to Mortal Online. While they do have the ability to take things from living opponents in MO it requires skill points invested in things not useful to combat and is far more limited than post death looting.
Example 2: In EVE in Null Sec space. As there is no security status change for ganking in null sec and no other way to know if a target is likely to attack you every non-allied friendly player you see in null sec must be presumed as a potential threat. (And even some of the friendly ones if your alliance sucks managing diplomatic statuses as I unfortunately discovered)
This combined with no benefit in allowing neutral players to operate from your space has resulted in every major power adopting a policy called NBSI (Not Blue, Shoot It). Not because they all want to (Many do but some don't). Because the game leaves no other viable option.
TL:DR - While few games actively promote griefing, most PvP games omit mechanics that would allow players to more viably forgo killing other players for the sake of mercy or cooperation.
Lineage 2 in my opinion had the most aggressive griefers I've ever encountered.
There was a person on my server back in the day that would camp outside of the Heretics Catacomb (a non instanced dungeon area) every day all day. They had maxed out their PK number on the stats screen, and would kill literally anyone that tried to go in. If someone came a long and killed them, they happened to have multiple other characters strategically positioned to log in and kill the person who killed them. It was really strange to me, but they obviously were having fun. There were also so many players who had perma red (name turned red if you killed another player without them attacking back, and you had to work it off via a karma system) characters, and they would just roam and kill new players or just players who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Even my first 5 minutes into the game back in C2 (2nd major patch, around 2004) I was a young kid who had never really played MMO's. I created an elf warrior, and started around this big tree. I walked about 5 feet only to get ganked almost instantaneously and got a whisper just saying "lol don't start an elf next time". It was extremely toxic and was just generic griefing of new players, but that's what dragged me into the game and I wanted to kill players like that.
Or just allowed humans freedom, so that they acted in accordance with their nature when threat of retaliation or punishment is not present.
It is never the game's fault. It is sad that there has to be high level of regulation implemented in the games to prevent humans from acting naturally.
I would actually kind of disagree on that point. While few games promote "griefing" per say, a lot of games really make killing everyone you see who isn't friendly the most logical course of action.
In these scenarios the players aren't aiming to grief, but they are causing a lot more damage than would be needed if better systems were in place.
Example 1: In Darkfall when you are defeated in combat you are incapacitated. Not dead your character just lays there unable to do anything until you bleed out (Original) recover (Unholy Wars) or choose to allow yourself to die.
Other players have the choice to revive or finish you off while you are in this state. In order to loot you, it is required that they finish you off.
This is an example of a choice that needlessly encourages players to kill each other. If you get killed you will often go back to find most your stuff still on your body. If they simply allowed looting in the incapacitated state they could just take what they want and leave, as would be realistic. Instead the game encourages you to finish off every opponent you fight.
This scenario also applies to Mortal Online. While they do have the ability to take things from living opponents in MO it requires skill points invested in things not useful to combat and is far more limited than post death looting.
Example 2: In EVE in Null Sec space. As there is no security status change for ganking in null sec and no other way to know if a target is likely to attack you every non-allied friendly player you see in null sec must be presumed as a potential threat. (And even some of the friendly ones if your alliance sucks managing diplomatic statuses as I unfortunately discovered)
This combined with no benefit in allowing neutral players to operate from your space has resulted in every major power adopting a policy called NBSI (Not Blue, Shoot It). Not because they all want to (Many do but some don't). Because the game leaves no other viable option.
TL:DR - While few games actively promote griefing, most PvP games omit mechanics that would allow players to more viably forgo killing other players for the sake of mercy or cooperation.
Well in EVE there's one region (Fountain?) where the alliances who live there promote a "Not Red, Don't Shoot" policy and while not perfect works pretty well if you are part of the regional intel.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Right but that's an exception to the rule, and I'm guessing it takes an insane amount of work to manage for little reward. Overall the game's mechanics discourage that playstyle.
Though having the corps that run citadels get the tax proceeds is a step in the right direction. A cut of the proceeds from ratting/missions within their systems would be an even greater one.
Some kind of alignment system particular to the area an alliance holds sovereignty of that allows them to easily identify targets who have been breaking their laws in their systems in combination with that could actually see NRDS become a widely adopted policy.
Lately, I've taken a shine to griefing in Roblox. I know, I know, but when you have a 5y/o kid just getting into gaming you gotta game with 'em. Anyway there is this game where people dress up in a castle pretending to be fairies or mermaids. Way far away from the castle are bears that can kill you. Theres also a dragon morph on one side of the map. I morph into a dragon and fly over all the bears, just enough to aggro, but not enough for them to hit me. Then, I slowly train them all to the castle. It's not fast, but man is it fun to watch the ensuing chaos at the spawn point. That said, my daughter is sick of my behavior lol
I think no matter the game mode (PvE or PvP), if a player is doing something hoping it will detriment a another just because they can...
That's the point - the player is not doing it to grief anyone.
How do you know that? As humankind we have proved we are capable of doing anything for any reason. But somehow we draw the line on PvP? I think it is cute that you are trying to see the best in people.
I have done a lot of griefing in WoW and in EVE--A lot. Thanks for trying to put a nice spin on it but no--I've done it only to irritate others; because a lot of times I am an asshole both in-game and in the real world. But I'm not a delusional one.
Maybe the spin you are forcing on the whole thing because you are a griefer yourself and hurts you emotionally when people call you that? If that's the case, mate, I think it is the time for you to man up and take responsibility over being an asshole.
@Kyleran - I'm well past the chaotic neutral web and gone deep into the abyss now.
It's funny you posted this because I was going to bring up the fact people have stated they grief people hoping it makes them mad, because it's true one doesn't know the motivation of people in online games. Props for being honest.
Right. I'm not the type to get my rocks off kicking some random guy I know nothing about around but when I wage war in PvP games, a large component of my tactics are griefing.
1. Because most groups I target out have issues with griefing in their own ranks and I'm giving them a taste of their own medicine. 2. Because in any war where the rivalry is intense and genuine I fully admit I enjoy watching the enemy suffer. 3. Because breaking the will of enemy guild to the point of causing internal drama and disbandment is an effective strategy in eliminating them as a threat.
So while I wouldn't really call myself a griefer, I've spent a lot of time anti-griefing, a large component of which is griefing the griefers. I've gazed into that abyss so to speak.
Having an enemy you hate whine as you gank them over and over is a uniquely satisfying experience. Telling them "Drop tags and I'll let you go" and having some of them actually quit their guild over it is even more satisfying. The combat isn't engaging, it's boring as crap. You are there for their suffering. It's the only thing that makes it fun.
Two come to mind... Ultima Online, and Lineage II.
Lineage was especially bad at launch, not because of the Asian bot armies, and the exploits that had been fixed for months overseas but were imported whole cloth to North America, but because of two core mechanics: First, really low level characters would drop nothing if killed, and second, to-hit was entirely level based, and damage was completely weapon based... and anyone could wield any weapon, as long as they could afford the insane vendor prices. Soooo, sitting at the only exit from town was always a bunch of level 4 characters with one-hit kill weapons, swiping at everyone who was trying to enter or leave, and killing well over half the people in reach.
Is it griefing when someone dominates the Monopoly board? No. Is it griefing when you lose at checkers? No.
Griefing is a myth. Its winning or losing. Grow a pair.
That is an over simplification of the topic. Yes, in PvP there is usually a winner and a loser and most people that play PvP games are aware of this and can take a beating without batting an eye.
While this topic is highly subjective, I think people can agree that there is a difference, if not in mechanics at least in the spirit of PvP vs Griefing.
Your final line "grow a pair' is awesome. I wonder how you would take it if Conor McGregor decided to beat the shit out of you every time you stepped out your front door. Obviously, there is nothing you can do about it (don't say other wise, you know it's true) beyond calling the police to come and keep him off you. However, if the cops won't come, what then, sit there looking out the window wishing you could go get a cupcake? Hoping this beast gets bored and leaves? Yeah, nope, the door opens you get a beating and back to the window with you.
Same concept here, some people can take a PvP loss, but when it comes to corpse camping or other shenanigans that keep you from being able to even play the game, it's just grief. Some games are designed with this in mind and they make it pretty well known before you log in. Especially in the case of Eve...if you do not realize that it's going to happen then that is your issue.
Anyway, it's not as simple as grow a pair, nor is it anything like a board game, that is an asinine comparison.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Is it griefing when someone dominates the Monopoly board? No. Is it griefing when you lose at checkers? No.
Griefing is a myth. Its winning or losing. Grow a pair.
Checkers and Monopoly are games with clear victory objectives. Pursuing those objectives is not griefing because your intent is to win. Now if you were to put yourself in a position where your victory was assured and then intentionally drag things out to toy with your opponents all the while talking crap and rubbing their nose in it, that would be griefing because your intent is piss people off.
If you can't see the difference between pursuing victory and intentionally trying to ruin your opponents day, and think the the latter is a myth... then I think you are the one in need of growing something. Though probably something a bit higher up on your body than a pair.
While this topic is highly subjective, I think people can agree that there is a difference, if not in mechanics at least in the spirit of PvP vs Griefing. .
The keyword there is "spirit". For a short time, UO had included in its Code of Conduct a section on behavior/actions adhering to the spirit of the game. However, discerning intent - or at least getting someone to own up to actual intent - is far harder than any other form of moderation or governance.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The next tier up is spawn camping. Where you get killed then when you respawn are instantly killed again and again until you give up and stop playing for however long they decide to be there. This is especially bad with exp loss, but simple denial of the ability to play period is sufficient.
I don't really think Lineage 2 supported griefing because they gave you a few ways to avoid it. If you were being hounded in one zone there are lots of other equal level zones to go to, to complete your grind. If you stocked blessed scrolls, you could instantly port to another location when you saw that red name running towards you or if he didn't one shot you it was easy to teleport before the second hit. If in a guild you could could easily escape and come back with your mates. Ruined his day because he missed what he thought was going to be an easy kill.
Games that support eternal stun locking are a different matter.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Comments
Anyways, I am sure backing up your argument by making sounds is a solid proof of others not using logic. ^^
Not my playstyle, but they do force people to engage in conflict or at least better organise themselves and/or never leave a station ever.
Worst games for griefing I have experienced are now failed or low pop, so that in itself should say that rampant griefing is a game killer and pandering to it is a very short term and dumb position for a company to actively pursue.
So if a company did support it you are left with a rather confusing conflict of interest, but there are so many fast burn, rapid turnover cookie cutter MMO's being churn out by some publishers, maybe there is a formula where this is beneficial.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
No. His problem is that his logic rarely works, and even when it does work it's often obvious he's making up ridiculous scenarios just to avoid being wrong.
"I killed the easy target for four hours for the PvPz! Not because I enjoy watching them rage!"
Right. And I gargle salt water and drink shots of vinegar when I have a sore throat because I love the flavor.
Griefing is something malicious, nefarious, biased, and unforgivingly persistent.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Closest thing to griefing I expereienced was the war dec mechanic, but just my opinion as it is mostly utilized by the players to camp PVE players in stations for weeks on end or rack up easy kills on the same.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And all that can be called 'playing the game' UNTIL your soul motivation is to take the enjoyment from the other person away, then its called grieving.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
In these scenarios the players aren't aiming to grief, but they are causing a lot more damage than would be needed if better systems were in place.
Example 1: In Darkfall when you are defeated in combat you are incapacitated. Not dead your character just lays there unable to do anything until you bleed out (Original) recover (Unholy Wars) or choose to allow yourself to die.
Other players have the choice to revive or finish you off while you are in this state. In order to loot you, it is required that they finish you off.
This is an example of a choice that needlessly encourages players to kill each other. If you get killed you will often go back to find most your stuff still on your body. If they simply allowed looting in the incapacitated state they could just take what they want and leave, as would be realistic. Instead the game encourages you to finish off every opponent you fight.
This scenario also applies to Mortal Online. While they do have the ability to take things from living opponents in MO it requires skill points invested in things not useful to combat and is far more limited than post death looting.
Example 2: In EVE in Null Sec space. As there is no security status change for ganking in null sec and no other way to know if a target is likely to attack you every non-allied friendly player you see in null sec must be presumed as a potential threat. (And even some of the friendly ones if your alliance sucks managing diplomatic statuses as I unfortunately discovered)
This combined with no benefit in allowing neutral players to operate from your space has resulted in every major power adopting a policy called NBSI (Not Blue, Shoot It). Not because they all want to (Many do but some don't). Because the game leaves no other viable option.
TL:DR - While few games actively promote griefing, most PvP games omit mechanics that would allow players to more viably forgo killing other players for the sake of mercy or cooperation.
There was a person on my server back in the day that would camp outside of the Heretics Catacomb (a non instanced dungeon area) every day all day. They had maxed out their PK number on the stats screen, and would kill literally anyone that tried to go in. If someone came a long and killed them, they happened to have multiple other characters strategically positioned to log in and kill the person who killed them. It was really strange to me, but they obviously were having fun. There were also so many players who had perma red (name turned red if you killed another player without them attacking back, and you had to work it off via a karma system) characters, and they would just roam and kill new players or just players who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Even my first 5 minutes into the game back in C2 (2nd major patch, around 2004) I was a young kid who had never really played MMO's. I created an elf warrior, and started around this big tree. I walked about 5 feet only to get ganked almost instantaneously and got a whisper just saying "lol don't start an elf next time". It was extremely toxic and was just generic griefing of new players, but that's what dragged me into the game and I wanted to kill players like that.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Though having the corps that run citadels get the tax proceeds is a step in the right direction. A cut of the proceeds from ratting/missions within their systems would be an even greater one.
Some kind of alignment system particular to the area an alliance holds sovereignty of that allows them to easily identify targets who have been breaking their laws in their systems in combination with that could actually see NRDS become a widely adopted policy.
That's just, like, my opinion, man.
1. Because most groups I target out have issues with griefing in their own ranks and I'm giving them a taste of their own medicine.
2. Because in any war where the rivalry is intense and genuine I fully admit I enjoy watching the enemy suffer.
3. Because breaking the will of enemy guild to the point of causing internal drama and disbandment is an effective strategy in eliminating them as a threat.
So while I wouldn't really call myself a griefer, I've spent a lot of time anti-griefing, a large component of which is griefing the griefers. I've gazed into that abyss so to speak.
Having an enemy you hate whine as you gank them over and over is a uniquely satisfying experience. Telling them "Drop tags and I'll let you go" and having some of them actually quit their guild over it is even more satisfying. The combat isn't engaging, it's boring as crap. You are there for their suffering. It's the only thing that makes it fun.
Lineage was especially bad at launch, not because of the Asian bot armies, and the exploits that had been fixed for months overseas but were imported whole cloth to North America, but because of two core mechanics: First, really low level characters would drop nothing if killed, and second, to-hit was entirely level based, and damage was completely weapon based... and anyone could wield any weapon, as long as they could afford the insane vendor prices. Soooo, sitting at the only exit from town was always a bunch of level 4 characters with one-hit kill weapons, swiping at everyone who was trying to enter or leave, and killing well over half the people in reach.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
Griefing is a myth. Its winning or losing. Grow a pair.
While this topic is highly subjective, I think people can agree that there is a difference, if not in mechanics at least in the spirit of PvP vs Griefing.
Your final line "grow a pair' is awesome. I wonder how you would take it if Conor McGregor decided to beat the shit out of you every time you stepped out your front door. Obviously, there is nothing you can do about it (don't say other wise, you know it's true) beyond calling the police to come and keep him off you. However, if the cops won't come, what then, sit there looking out the window wishing you could go get a cupcake? Hoping this beast gets bored and leaves? Yeah, nope, the door opens you get a beating and back to the window with you.
Same concept here, some people can take a PvP loss, but when it comes to corpse camping or other shenanigans that keep you from being able to even play the game, it's just grief. Some games are designed with this in mind and they make it pretty well known before you log in. Especially in the case of Eve...if you do not realize that it's going to happen then that is your issue.
Anyway, it's not as simple as grow a pair, nor is it anything like a board game, that is an asinine comparison.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
If you can't see the difference between pursuing victory and intentionally trying to ruin your opponents day, and think the the latter is a myth... then I think you are the one in need of growing something. Though probably something a bit higher up on your body than a pair.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Games that support eternal stun locking are a different matter.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey