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Conditions that allow classes to be "more powerful"

anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,893
What are conditions/negatives do you believe are fair, to make a class operating under perfect conditions more powerful?   How much does your answer change if the game mechanics shift to/away from PvE/PvP?

  • Probably the most popular one would be difficulty curve.   After all if you need to spend some 20 hours just to understand how to properly use your classes twitch/conditional abilities you should get some reward for it, especially when most other classes just need a few hours to learn.
  • Time investment is still pretty popular.  Leveling systems, Rune systems, and Grind systems of all sort.
  • Next one is conditional power.   For instance your class is below the average power tier, but when you toss your spell breaker at a mage it turns into an empowering experience as you take out that mage with ease.  In some cases it could be something like "Why did you expect to win against a druid in a forest?".
  • Requiring ammo when other classes don't.   Doesn't see much use in modern MMOs, but it was popular a long while back and still is in some text based games / MUDS.
  • Easy to interrupt, counter or requires support.   That channelling mage can do some amazing things when left to their own devices, but throw any type of damage at them and they'll never be able to cast even their simplest spells,  maybe if you have a long term DOT ability you might be able to lock them out of their magic abilities the whole fight.   Don't fight a tower/stationary-pet mage under their tower.
  • requires you to utterly lack some type of ability.   For instance in a movement heavy game, your character would find themselves without a good escape ability.   Perhaps in a Crowd Control heavy game, to gain that awesome ability you'd need to take up your self CC cleanse ability slot.
  • Ability requires multiple people.   For instance you make use of "shield wall" abilities that become more defensively powerful the more people that use the ability in the group.   
  • only a subset of people can use the ability.   For instance only the guild leader/party leader can use the ability,  the first person to solve a puzzle gets a slightly more powerful version of an ability, the first guild to take down a raid boss gain stat bonuses to their looted gear from the dungeon.
  • The thing isn't fun to play.   We've all seen this in some games where X thing just isn't fun or involving, and is granted a bit of power in return for it.
  • Requires some sort of extra knowledge, or steps.   For instance you know that if you spent time in a volcano in the past day, your fire spells get a "hidden" damage bonus that isn't revealed anywhere on the user interface.
  • It's not a DPS class, or is a respond to the enemy class.   Healers are given quite a bit of power in return for only being able to respond to incoming fire.  Quite a few classes give up a lot of DPS in return for having access to some outstanding crowd control.
  • It doesn't affect the fight.  For instance classes that affect quest rewards, have easier access to crafting, doesn't need to buy consumables, and similar.

____________

Personally I'm curious what a lot of people think.  I know there have been quite of bit of complaints about sameness.   But when it comes down to combating that "sameness" how much power are you willing to give up to someone else, especially in cases where that power might be used against you (either directly in PvP, or indirectly to gain monetary/cultural/speed bonuses in PvE).

I also think that in a PvE game the devs should be allowed to go pretty crazy if they want to.   For PvPer I think there are games where power gimmicks work pretty well (EVE is a good example), though they should come at a cost that rapidly increases the more you attempt to use.



Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

Gdemami

Comments

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,129
    edited August 2017
    Your avatar get delete when it get killed .

    The logic here is : your ship class is super OP , but you will lost it if it get destroy , fair trade .
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    Non-stacking abilities. That is only one caster per group is effective. Multiple casts at the same time are not more effective.
    MrMelGibson
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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,829
    Well ideas change dramatically depending pve or pvp.I mean would a game be fun if you just one shot your opponent..oh wait arpg's like Diablo/POE do this,yep both crap games.
    I cannot understand any rational thought that one shotting an opponent is fun and to make it an actual GAME,we should have a challenge,obstacles to overcome.

    PVP 100% must have balance,the only other remote choice is paper rock scissors but in itself that is a form of balance but again might as well chuck that design in with arpg's<<<crap.Shallow one tricky pony ideas don't sit well with me,i like to see the developer put some thought,effort and depth into their combat systems.

    The opposite side of the coin is that PVE does not need to be balanced at all.In the PVE side you can also OP characters under certain conditions.You can give players a lot of power if the mob has a lot of hitpoints,otherwise you end up one shotting again,aka no brainer no skills needed at all.You also need to "points back at dev effort"create a solid AI where the npc might heal itself or put up a shield block to nullify your op attack or even disrupt a powerful spell,we just need a good solid system designer and no that does not mean ,show me your long resume of working for Blizzard or Bethesda because that means nothing to me.

    Also mentioned is perhaps an op ability that utilizes several players in a combo,i am all for that idea.My past experience in that area has proven to me that majority of gamer's do not like to think at all,they actually would rather just sit there and solo one shot stuff,i guess the modern era of gamer is pretty shallow minded.BTW i draw ALL of my conclusions off of real life gaming for the past 30 years,i have seen a lot of gamer's over that time and can easily make assumptions based off of fact.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,025
    I believe that each class should bring in some unique ability/skill to encourage groups to use a variety of classes instead of just stacking the FOTM class.  At the same time bringing in new ideas for support/tank classes to encourage people to fill those roles.  Not sure if I answered your question correctly.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,391
    I believe that each class should bring in some unique ability/skill to encourage groups to use a variety of classes instead of just stacking the FOTM class.  At the same time bringing in new ideas for support/tank classes to encourage people to fill those roles.  Not sure if I answered your question correctly.
    The problem with that is that no matter what you do, certain classes/builds will always be a bit better at a particular role than others in a given balancing cycle. Word gets out and the majority of players, who want to complete fights as smoothly as possible, will prefer those who are at the top of the heap over others.

    The classes / builds may change over time due to the constant nerf/buff cycle but the dynamics of seeking out the best stay the same.

    I'm not saying that everyone does that but most seem to.
    MrMelGibson
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited August 2017
    Iselin said:
    I believe that each class should bring in some unique ability/skill to encourage groups to use a variety of classes instead of just stacking the FOTM class.  At the same time bringing in new ideas for support/tank classes to encourage people to fill those roles.  Not sure if I answered your question correctly.
    The problem with that is that no matter what you do, certain classes/builds will always be a bit better at a particular role than others in a given balancing cycle. Word gets out and the majority of players, who want to complete fights as smoothly as possible, will prefer those who are at the top of the heap over others.

    The classes / builds may change over time due to the constant nerf/buff cycle but the dynamics of seeking out the best stay the same.

    I'm not saying that everyone does that but most seem to.
    Players will widely take the path of least resistance to accomplish any given goal, which is why FOTM builds are popular in the first place.  Indeed, player behavior is primarily regulated by the time and effort required to accomplish any given task and the rewards for doing so that cannot be found through faster, easier means.

    Players will only opt for the avenue requiring more effort or time when there's an exclusive reward for doing so.  Unfortunately, it would be a shit show for devs to go "okay, this build is kinda weak, so we're upping the drop rate for folks while playing this build!"

    No good answer from me here, just thought I'd expound on the point you're making, @Iselin.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on

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  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,893
    Iselin said:
    I believe that each class should bring in some unique ability/skill to encourage groups to use a variety of classes instead of just stacking the FOTM class.  At the same time bringing in new ideas for support/tank classes to encourage people to fill those roles.  Not sure if I answered your question correctly.
    The problem with that is that no matter what you do, certain classes/builds will always be a bit better at a particular role than others in a given balancing cycle. Word gets out and the majority of players, who want to complete fights as smoothly as possible, will prefer those who are at the top of the heap over others.

    The classes / builds may change over time due to the constant nerf/buff cycle but the dynamics of seeking out the best stay the same.

    I'm not saying that everyone does that but most seem to.
    Players will widely take the path of least resistance to accomplish any given goal, which is why FOTM builds are popular in the first place.  Indeed, player behavior is primarily regulated by the time and effort required to accomplish any given task and the rewards for doing so that cannot be found through faster, easier means.

    Players will only opt for the avenue requiring more effort or time when there's an exclusive reward for doing so.  Unfortunately, it would be a shit show for devs to go "okay, this build is kinda weak, so we're upping the drop rate for folks while playing this build!"

    No good answer from me here, just thought I'd expound on the point you're making, @Iselin.
    Yes there will always be something better.   But do you as a player care if something is better.   Are you willing to play a class/something you enjoy, and leave people with stronger FOTM builds alone  OR do you want to see those FOTM builds have built in disadvantages along with what/how strong those disadvantages should be.

    I imagine the worse case scenrio could be something along the lines of one shot anything ability (world boses, players, or well anything).   But that player would require massive grind/support/time/something to do so.

    More typical cases of a rogue having stealth, but typically having pretty weak range attacks.

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,025
    Iselin said:
    I believe that each class should bring in some unique ability/skill to encourage groups to use a variety of classes instead of just stacking the FOTM class.  At the same time bringing in new ideas for support/tank classes to encourage people to fill those roles.  Not sure if I answered your question correctly.
    The problem with that is that no matter what you do, certain classes/builds will always be a bit better at a particular role than others in a given balancing cycle. Word gets out and the majority of players, who want to complete fights as smoothly as possible, will prefer those who are at the top of the heap over others.

    The classes / builds may change over time due to the constant nerf/buff cycle but the dynamics of seeking out the best stay the same.

    I'm not saying that everyone does that but most seem to.
    Maybe they need to give a certain buff to a raid group for having every class available part of the raid team.  Like a gear set.  This would encourage people playing different classes, and also people who still want the FOTM team can still run that.  But that buff or "set buff" for unique classes could offset that FOTM power difference.  

    I imagine it would be difficult to get right.  But it could be done.
    Gdemami
  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,227
    I wasn't really sure what you were asking specifically but I'll answer it of how I interpret it.

    Classes are simply an avatar of a role you wish to provide in the game world via combat with other classes to progress through content. 

    Good class design would allow your class/role to excel at the conditions they are meant for. It would also allow the skill and wisdom of a player to be more tactical in a condition to have a higher opportunity of success. 

    To properly answer your question, it needs to be asked at the very foundation of what a class is, a role. The role of the class is to bring forth uniqueness of what that class brings to the table. If classes share the same role, what thematic class mechanics make that class unique to play? Performance of classes that share the same role should be determined by player input as well as class output from said mechanics. 

    Can that role be powerful in the conditions they are meant for? Can that role have a balanced opportunity to compete against other classes that share that same role? 

    'Sameness' is not necessarily a bad thing, but 'sameness' when all classes share the same utility to potentially perform aspects of the same role is bad. Take WoW for instance. Especially in PVP. Nearly every class has a self heal, a gap closer, a silence, root/stun, ability to lock out of spell schools. In those conditions, it's challenging for one to overcome a condition because your class looses an advantage over other classes. It really breaks class balancing.

    Also in regards to 'sameness', it's okay if classes share the same role, but what makes them unique in performance and output in any given condition. 

    This is actually a difficult question to ask across the board because there are some many variables and design decisions to go into something like that. That's why I answered at a foundnational level. 




  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,815
    Resistances to certain elements/effects increases for a time as you get hit by them repeatedly so people won't spam same skill nor effect on PvP or PvE and will have to actually build a balanced team in order to be effective. 
    MrMelGibson
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  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,583
    As far as MMOs go, I believe the game should be designed with group balance in mind first, then 1v1 balance second. 

    So, there should be multiple roles (tank, healer, dps, buffer, debuffer, cc etc)
    Each role should have one or more classes
    Each class should be a unique way to fulfil a role 

    Content should be designed so that every role has a valid purpose
    Classes should be designed to overcome problems resulting from missing roles (e.g. if you don't have a CC class with you, you could bring an AoE DPS instead). 
    Classes should have lots of inter-class dependencies


    Once that is sorted - i.e. every class has a valid purpose and every group setup can complete content - then it is time for the 1v1 balance. 

    First up is power gaps. There shouldn't be any. This is an MMO, you're supposed to be playing together. Power gaps get in the way of the foundation of MMO design and create barriers to playing with other people, so they need to be removed. This means horizontal progression - no stat creep, no unlocking of uber abilities, no tiered gear etc. 

    Second is class v class balance. Every class should be able to kill every other class 1v1 if played correctly. This balance is not about DPS, or health, but about the whole toolset available to a class. Perhaps you're playing a CC class with low DPS, you can still win against melee DPS through careful use of CC, kiting and the few damage skills you have. Likewise, the melee DPS can win through careful interrupts, slows to prevent kiting and bleeds to continue DPS if stunned. If two players of equal skill face each other, the outcome will come down to usual combat RNG. 



    If this level of balance is achieved, then player skill is the only thing that allows a class to become too powerful. I'm fine with that - a good player should be winning fights. 
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