I'm pretty tech-ignorant, so I'm looking for some expert opinions. The Kickstarter for Camelot Unchained states that their goal is to "Maintain an absolute minimum of 30 FPS in battles of up to 500 people." That's why they're building a custom engine: no one else, apparently, has built an available engine that can do this. My question is, is this even feasible with modern technology? For a small team working with a relatively small budget? Have others, especially AAA developers, tried and failed to achieve such a lofty goal? I'm wondering if problems achieving this base programming goal are part of the reason that the game is still in a pre-alpha state after four years. Again, I'm very ignorant of how this all works, so I'm looking for the opinions of programmers or network pros that know a lot about this.
Daybreak could not do it. They failed with Voxel tech but maybe CU dev team knows something Daybreak did not. Voxels in the end is what killed EQN from being a playable game.
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Daybreak could not do it. They failed with Voxel tech but maybe CU dev team knows something Daybreak did not. Voxels in the end is what killed EQN from being a playable game.
You're correct in that using Voxels in a large-scale building game is a source of problems for many devs. It works great in small-scale games but large-scale, well, that would be a major PITA. That's why we don't use Voxels, but use blocks that are not able to be altered such as EQN andCrowfall wwew talking about during their Kickstarter (they were, at the time, both using the same Voxel engine).
What was the latency between bot clients and server?
This is key in simulating real world performance, as latency is directly related to maximum bandwidth throughput from server back to clients
I didnt see latency figures mentioned anywhere.
Yeah, it's pretty hard to simulate network routing (latency and jitter) down to the last mile. That's also mostly out of their control.
Last mile is always an issue but selecting thw lowest latency return path via best provider in real time from server to client can be controlled via BGP routing tuning solutions like Noction IRP - which Blizzard, CCP, Trion and other game hosting companies use.
AWS doesnt - and BGP inherently has no latency awareness, so AWS doesnt know how to get around high latency providers when a better alternate lower latency path exists over a higher AS count (BGP less preferred) route.
Yep, once we get through most of Beta 1 we will start looking at different cloud providers. For now, AWS is easy to work for and is, well, the devil you know.
I liked the battle size in DAOC because it was still personal enough that you could pick an individual target and stick on it. But in the early days, at least, AOE CC and DPS was devastating. Too powerful. Hopefully, CU finds a balance.
Me too. It will be difficult especially as Torval says below, as the number of people in a battle go up.
I liked the battle size in DAOC because it was still personal enough that you could pick an individual target and stick on it. But in the early days, at least, AOE CC and DPS was devastating. Too powerful. Hopefully, CU finds a balance.
That's been my question as well. What will meaningful combat look like in a group of 500 people? Can I contribute to the battle in a manner that will have an impact that I can see?
It's great that mass combat won't be a freeze frame flash show. I've been in several of those and am ready for that to be tech history. But, I don't think simply removing performance problems instantly makes for quality battles. I'm curious how they're going to make those battles engaging.
+1, QFT, etc.
I need to keep my answer short, as we are in the middle of getting ready for a 500 Bot test with Backers but here's a few things to keep in mind.
1) We (devs, players) need to separate a siege battle from an open field battle in our heads. 500 folks in a siege will feel very different from 500 in an open field.
2) For sieges, a 500 person battle will, most likely, feel a lot more personal since, unless the attackers are dumb, they will be attacking the structure from different points. This will mean that it won't be 250 vs. 250, but rather smaller groups attacking the structure's defenses versus other smaller groups defending it.
3) For an open field battle, your ability to contribute visibly will depend on a lot on your class and your playstyle. If you are a DPS caster who likes to stay in the back and cast more powerful spells, you will see a less frequent (slower cast) but larger effect (bigger game) on a battle. On the other hand, if you are a melee DPS, you'll see less effect on a large battle unless you are focused on taking out specific targets ("Kill the clothies!") versus just looking for targets of opportunity.
I could talk about this all day but I need to get back to work. I can come back later if asked/needed.
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
edited August 2017
FYI, we're testing 500Bots (archers + fighters), with our Alpha and IT backers right now.
My favorite comment so far (from a Backer with a 4K monitor) - "impressive..even with fireworks im getting 45 FPS"
Makes me smile. We're not there yet but 500 Bots + players make a pretty good Alpha test.
Hit 1K, server ran great, shut down the test as scheduled.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
I appreciate the candor and your many replies Mark, never change.
On an unrelated note I tried Googling you to see your previous games and now I'm being pushed ads for Marc Jacobs women's clothing and cosmetics.
Maybe you can straighten Google out on who the "real Mark" is.
While I have changed over the years, it's mostly for the better. Nobody's perfect, but I'm always trying to get better at everything I can get better at (sadly, no more b-ball for me). In terms of candor, yeah, I'm still as candid as I've been in the past (not counting my time at EA where I had to be incredibly careful about what I said) and I still won't attack other devs/games, that will never change.
I appreciate the candor and your many replies Mark, never change.
On an unrelated note I tried Googling you to see your previous games and now I'm being pushed ads for Marc Jacobs women's clothing and cosmetics.
Maybe you can straighten Google out on who the "real Mark" is.
Maybe it's his crafting alt.
Nice, well played.
FYI, we'll be running another test today, geared to our European Backers time-wise.
Edit: Update - First part of the European-focused test was not a rousing success (it was hinky) but the 2nd hour+ was great. 1K Bots, people connecting from all over the world and great performance. We hit a bump once we went over 1K, but we think we know what the problem is and should be able to fix that quickly.
As he was heading out the door, one of our client-focused programmers told me that he fixed a bit of old code that now is new and improved code that got us a nice increase in rendering time per frame.
Latest big bot battle tests peaked over 2600 bots! Mark managed to run a character through the mass mob with smooth fps, latency and no rubber banding.
Obviously this was a heavy stress test and not a benchmark for release battles. It is sick tech though. Mark even stated it only fell slightly short of how many total players even resided on orginal Daoc servers ... and this is only in one immediate battle.
Latest big bot battle tests peaked over 2600 bots! Mark managed to run a character through the mass mob with smooth fps, latency and no rubber banding.
Obviously this was a heavy stress test and not a benchmark for release battles. It is sick tech though. Mark even stated it only fell slightly short of how many total players even resided on orginal Daoc servers ... and this is only in one immediate battle.
Do you have a vid of that test? It would be interesting to see.
Biggest Castle siege I was ever apart of was in Lineage 2 , there was over 100 different clans watching us take control of Aiden castle, it was insane , Well over 1000 people
Lineage 2 it was possible to have Unlimated numbers of people it seemed, Animations for every character Ect , and this was Years and Years ago
Goood Gooood memories , I was controlling the Huge golem knocking down the castle walls also
Biggest Castle siege I was ever apart of was in Lineage 2 , there was over 100 different clans watching us take control of Aiden castle, it was insane , Well over 1000 people
Lineage 2 it was possible to have Unlimated numbers of people it seemed, Animations for every character Ect , and this was Years and Years ago
Goood Gooood memories , I was controlling the Huge golem knocking down the castle walls also
Was that Hindemith? if so I was in that castle defending! Loved that. Best time I've ever had.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Latest big bot battle tests peaked over 2600 bots! Mark managed to run a character through the mass mob with smooth fps, latency and no rubber banding.
Obviously this was a heavy stress test and not a benchmark for release battles. It is sick tech though. Mark even stated it only fell slightly short of how many total players even resided on orginal Daoc servers ... and this is only in one immediate battle.
Do you have a vid of that test? It would be interesting to see.
I thought they were going to throw a screenshot in the weekly update but just checked and nothing. Might be buried in the forums but I don't post things from there as under NDA.
I'd imagine end of month newsletter will have at least a screen. This info is from last weekly vid update which is worth a look for the first 10-15 minutes of weekly review if not into the 45 minutes of Q&A.
I know the delays of beta annoy many but it is truly very soon if counting in months.
Biggest Castle siege I was ever apart of was in Lineage 2 , there was over 100 different clans watching us take control of Aiden castle, it was insane , Well over 1000 people
Lineage 2 it was possible to have Unlimated numbers of people it seemed, Animations for every character Ect , and this was Years and Years ago
Goood Gooood memories , I was controlling the Huge golem knocking down the castle walls also
Was that Hindemith? if so I was in that castle defending! Loved that. Best time I've ever had.
was on the Kain server actually Fallen Angels was my clan
I was the number 1 dwarf bounty hunter for a while hahah
Latest big bot battle tests peaked over 2600 bots! Mark managed to run a character through the mass mob with smooth fps, latency and no rubber banding.
Obviously this was a heavy stress test and not a benchmark for release battles. It is sick tech though. Mark even stated it only fell slightly short of how many total players even resided on orginal Daoc servers ... and this is only in one immediate battle.
Do you have a vid of that test? It would be interesting to see.
I thought they were going to throw a screenshot in the weekly update but just checked and nothing. Might be buried in the forums but I don't post things from there as under NDA.
I'd imagine end of month newsletter will have at least a screen. This info is from last weekly vid update which is worth a look for the first 10-15 minutes of weekly review if not into the 45 minutes of Q&A.
I know the delays of beta annoy many but it is truly very soon if counting in months.
Jacobs posted a screen from his own rig on the forums. You can probably track it down through his profile.
Rithwis, Righteous Golem of Camelot | Skritha, Orc Archer of Tamriel | Bloodwod, Sawbones of Auraxis | Thrumdi, Blue Norn of Tyria | Gwidwod, Spider of the Ettenmoors | Gideon Slack, Hunter of Alsius
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Please do not respond to me
Yep, once we get through most of Beta 1 we will start looking at different cloud providers. For now, AWS is easy to work for and is, well, the devil you know.
Me too. It will be difficult especially as Torval says below, as the number of people in a battle go up.
+1, QFT, etc.
I need to keep my answer short, as we are in the middle of getting ready for a 500 Bot test with Backers but here's a few things to keep in mind.
1) We (devs, players) need to separate a siege battle from an open field battle in our heads. 500 folks in a siege will feel very different from 500 in an open field.
2) For sieges, a 500 person battle will, most likely, feel a lot more personal since, unless the attackers are dumb, they will be attacking the structure from different points. This will mean that it won't be 250 vs. 250, but rather smaller groups attacking the structure's defenses versus other smaller groups defending it.
3) For an open field battle, your ability to contribute visibly will depend on a lot on your class and your playstyle. If you are a DPS caster who likes to stay in the back and cast more powerful spells, you will see a less frequent (slower cast) but larger effect (bigger game) on a battle. On the other hand, if you are a melee DPS, you'll see less effect on a large battle unless you are focused on taking out specific targets ("Kill the clothies!") versus just looking for targets of opportunity.
I could talk about this all day but I need to get back to work. I can come back later if asked/needed.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
My favorite comment so far (from a Backer with a 4K monitor) - "impressive..even with fireworks im getting 45 FPS"
Makes me smile. We're not there yet but 500 Bots + players make a pretty good Alpha test.
Hit 1K, server ran great, shut down the test as scheduled.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
On an unrelated note I tried Googling you to see your previous games and now I'm being pushed ads for Marc Jacobs women's clothing and cosmetics.
Maybe you can straighten Google out on who the "real Mark" is.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Nice, well played.
FYI, we'll be running another test today, geared to our European Backers time-wise.
Edit: Update - First part of the European-focused test was not a rousing success (it was hinky) but the 2nd hour+ was great. 1K Bots, people connecting from all over the world and great performance. We hit a bump once we went over 1K, but we think we know what the problem is and should be able to fix that quickly.
As he was heading out the door, one of our client-focused programmers told me that he fixed a bit of old code that now is new and improved code that got us a nice increase in rendering time per frame.
Today was a very good day.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Obviously this was a heavy stress test and not a benchmark for release battles. It is sick tech though. Mark even stated it only fell slightly short of how many total players even resided on orginal Daoc servers ... and this is only in one immediate battle.
You stay sassy!
It would be interesting to see.
..Cake..
Biggest Castle siege I was ever apart of was in Lineage 2 , there was over 100 different clans watching us take control of Aiden castle, it was insane , Well over 1000 people
Lineage 2 it was possible to have Unlimated numbers of people it seemed, Animations for every character Ect , and this was Years and Years ago
Goood Gooood memories , I was controlling the Huge golem knocking down the castle walls also
Need to Bottle the code from Lineage 2 so other games can have smooth 1000 people siege's
Havnt seen any game come close to this level of intense PVP
I read your name as TabulaRosa...
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'd imagine end of month newsletter will have at least a screen. This info is from last weekly vid update which is worth a look for the first 10-15 minutes of weekly review if not into the 45 minutes of Q&A.
I know the delays of beta annoy many but it is truly very soon if counting in months.
You stay sassy!
was on the Kain server actually
I was the number 1 dwarf bounty hunter for a while hahah
good times
Rithwis, Righteous Golem of Camelot | Skritha, Orc Archer of Tamriel | Bloodwod, Sawbones of Auraxis | Thrumdi, Blue Norn of Tyria | Gwidwod, Spider of the Ettenmoors | Gideon Slack, Hunter of Alsius