Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

D&D 5e on top again

stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Member UncommonPosts: 884
D&D is still on top of the ICV2 Hobby sales for Spring 2017. I wonder if the release of Starfinder by Paizo will unseat it. It was nice to see that the 5e Middle Earth by Cubicle 7 broke into the top 5. 

James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

Amathe
«1

Comments

  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,976
    D&D Beyond is wrapping up beta and will be releasing next month so that's going to be even more momentum. With Twitch behind them, they have a lot of resources.
    stevebombsquadNycteliosMrMelGibson
  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Member UncommonPosts: 884
    Yeah, this edition seems to be doing quite well. I am really looking forward to the Tomb of Annihilation. 

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    The edition is doing quite well because it is a good edition, unlike the fourth.
    stevebombsquad
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    I am not surprised. 

    D&D 3 and 3.5 got killed eventually by all the silly class books and similar, some by TSR while other 3rd part publishers. The game eventually got insanely unbalanced and players always bought weird books and demanding to use them for their characters.

    D&D 4 was just terrible, they tried to get the Wow players into it by using MMO mechanics. Worst D&D edition ever.

    Pathfinder have gotten into the same problem as D&D 3, too much additional books, crappy balance and the rules are getting more and more complicated.

    D&D 5 is very simple right now and the balance is at least better even though some classes still suck at low level (sorceror) while others get unplayable after lvl 12 unless the whole group plays then (bard). Sometimes the rules feels a bit too much simplified  for my taste but it leaves more to roleplaying and the very strict limit on magical items work really well to balance things.

    You basically can have 3 powerful items since you need to bind them (yeah, you can unbind them as well), rings for instance are all requiring that to work and magic weapons that have anything more then simple +1-+3. My rogues boots of elvenkind does not have to be bound.

    That makes things far less complicated then Pathfinder where high level characters tend to have an insane amount of magical stuff on them. It also annoys the monty haul players a lot. ;)

    Sadly do the Forgotten realms campaign still suck, have not been good since 4th edition released.

    Personally do I wish they make a new AD&D edition. I liked AD&D, and don't let the "advanced" thing trick you, besides the Thac0 that mystified many players it was rather basic and simple.
    forcelima
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Loke666 said:
    I am not surprised. 

    D&D 3 and 3.5 got killed eventually by all the silly class books and similar, some by TSR while other 3rd part publishers. The game eventually got insanely unbalanced and players always bought weird books and demanding to use them for their characters.

    D&D 4 was just terrible, they tried to get the Wow players into it by using MMO mechanics. Worst D&D edition ever.

    Pathfinder have gotten into the same problem as D&D 3, too much additional books, crappy balance and the rules are getting more and more complicated.

    D&D 5 is very simple right now and the balance is at least better even though some classes still suck at low level (sorceror) while others get unplayable after lvl 12 unless the whole group plays then (bard). Sometimes the rules feels a bit too much simplified  for my taste but it leaves more to roleplaying and the very strict limit on magical items work really well to balance things.

    You basically can have 3 powerful items since you need to bind them (yeah, you can unbind them as well), rings for instance are all requiring that to work and magic weapons that have anything more then simple +1-+3. My rogues boots of elvenkind does not have to be bound.

    That makes things far less complicated then Pathfinder where high level characters tend to have an insane amount of magical stuff on them. It also annoys the monty haul players a lot. ;)

    Sadly do the Forgotten realms campaign still suck, have not been good since 4th edition released.

    Personally do I wish they make a new AD&D edition. I liked AD&D, and don't let the "advanced" thing trick you, besides the Thac0 that mystified many players it was rather basic and simple.

    To this day, I still wonder at people who can't understand Thac0.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • AlverantAlverant Member RarePosts: 1,149
    Loke666 said:
    I am not surprised. 

    D&D 3 and 3.5 got killed eventually by all the silly class books and similar, some by TSR while other 3rd part publishers. The game eventually got insanely unbalanced and players always bought weird books and demanding to use them for their characters.

    D&D 4 was just terrible, they tried to get the Wow players into it by using MMO mechanics. Worst D&D edition ever.

    Pathfinder have gotten into the same problem as D&D 3, too much additional books, crappy balance and the rules are getting more and more complicated.

    It's feature/power creep. The business needs people to keep buying books. So with a finite customer base it has to keep making more books to keep going. Adding special classes and elements gives people the motivation to buy those books. Sometimes you gotta wipe the slate clean and start over. I promise you, D&D 5 will have the same problems. Eventually you'll be able to get a 4th major magic item or a way to change an item so it can be used unbound. It will be handled in books that have to be bought because businesses need an ongoing income.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,899

    Wish I knew enough people to even play with lol

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    edited August 2017

    Wish I knew enough people to even play with lol

    Online tables are more popular than ever due that very reason, my friend. Only 1 campaign from the ones I'm in, the one I am game master (Vampire Masquerade 4thED, not D&D) is not online. There are many tools (or simple using discord) for such and some that can be adapted for it, like Tabletop Simulator.

    You should check out the D&D Beyond site and forums - you'll probably fine a campaign to play there.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • GruntyGrunty Member EpicPosts: 8,657

    Wish I knew enough people to even play with lol

    This site has a lot of U.S. national online game group links. http://dfwroleplayers.com/find-a-game-group/
    "I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone.  It's not.  The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone."  Robin Williams
  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,304
    waynejr2 said:
    Loke666 said:
    I am not surprised. 

    D&D 3 and 3.5 got killed eventually by all the silly class books and similar, some by TSR while other 3rd part publishers. The game eventually got insanely unbalanced and players always bought weird books and demanding to use them for their characters.

    D&D 4 was just terrible, they tried to get the Wow players into it by using MMO mechanics. Worst D&D edition ever.

    Pathfinder have gotten into the same problem as D&D 3, too much additional books, crappy balance and the rules are getting more and more complicated.

    D&D 5 is very simple right now and the balance is at least better even though some classes still suck at low level (sorceror) while others get unplayable after lvl 12 unless the whole group plays then (bard). Sometimes the rules feels a bit too much simplified  for my taste but it leaves more to roleplaying and the very strict limit on magical items work really well to balance things.

    You basically can have 3 powerful items since you need to bind them (yeah, you can unbind them as well), rings for instance are all requiring that to work and magic weapons that have anything more then simple +1-+3. My rogues boots of elvenkind does not have to be bound.

    That makes things far less complicated then Pathfinder where high level characters tend to have an insane amount of magical stuff on them. It also annoys the monty haul players a lot. ;)

    Sadly do the Forgotten realms campaign still suck, have not been good since 4th edition released.

    Personally do I wish they make a new AD&D edition. I liked AD&D, and don't let the "advanced" thing trick you, besides the Thac0 that mystified many players it was rather basic and simple.

    To this day, I still wonder at people who can't understand Thac0.
    I do my budget, manage bills, work a tech job and yet, I have to write the little chart down.  Drives me crazy: I can do  double entry accounting, but not THAC0 in my head.  

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,596
    D&D is still on top of the ICV2 Hobby sales for Spring 2017. I wonder if the release of Starfinder by Paizo will unseat it. It was nice to see that the 5e Middle Earth by Cubicle 7 broke into the top 5. 
    DnD still remains philosophically flawed.  From the time I was 8 years old and played a magic user in "Keep on the Borderlands" and died after the first pit I fell into, to the modern modules which insist that plot advancement hinge on me picking the right building/npc/map point to approach, I understand that it's not so much about story or challenge, but more about arbitrary BS.

    PbtA... even the Marvel system works better for appreciating player characters while creating a challenge, and encouraging story participation.  So many better systems now than DnD...
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Robsolf said:
    D&D is still on top of the ICV2 Hobby sales for Spring 2017. I wonder if the release of Starfinder by Paizo will unseat it. It was nice to see that the 5e Middle Earth by Cubicle 7 broke into the top 5. 
    DnD still remains philosophically flawed.  From the time I was 8 years old and played a magic user in "Keep on the Borderlands" and died after the first pit I fell into, to the modern modules which insist that plot advancement hinge on me picking the right building/npc/map point to approach, I understand that it's not so much about story or challenge, but more about arbitrary BS.

    PbtA... even the Marvel system works better for appreciating player characters while creating a challenge, and encouraging story participation.  So many better systems now than DnD...

    I think that is the crux of why many people dislike a particular RPG.  My character died...
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,596
    waynejr2 said:
    Robsolf said:
    D&D is still on top of the ICV2 Hobby sales for Spring 2017. I wonder if the release of Starfinder by Paizo will unseat it. It was nice to see that the 5e Middle Earth by Cubicle 7 broke into the top 5. 
    DnD still remains philosophically flawed.  From the time I was 8 years old and played a magic user in "Keep on the Borderlands" and died after the first pit I fell into, to the modern modules which insist that plot advancement hinge on me picking the right building/npc/map point to approach, I understand that it's not so much about story or challenge, but more about arbitrary BS.

    PbtA... even the Marvel system works better for appreciating player characters while creating a challenge, and encouraging story participation.  So many better systems now than DnD...

    I think that is the crux of why many people dislike a particular RPG.  My character died...
    Some, maybe.  On the other hand, if a game gives you a 20% chance to see a pit trap, then a 50% chance that you'll die when you fall into it, then I'd call that a pretty good reason to dislike a particular RPG.

    5th edition shows that it's gone a long way since then, but it still adheres to a guessing game narrative that often drags the plot into a swamp to die a horrible death... to the point where you wish that would happen to your character.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    mgilbrtsn said:
    waynejr2 said:
    Loke666 said:
    I am not surprised. 

    D&D 3 and 3.5 got killed eventually by all the silly class books and similar, some by TSR while other 3rd part publishers. The game eventually got insanely unbalanced and players always bought weird books and demanding to use them for their characters.

    D&D 4 was just terrible, they tried to get the Wow players into it by using MMO mechanics. Worst D&D edition ever.

    Pathfinder have gotten into the same problem as D&D 3, too much additional books, crappy balance and the rules are getting more and more complicated.

    D&D 5 is very simple right now and the balance is at least better even though some classes still suck at low level (sorceror) while others get unplayable after lvl 12 unless the whole group plays then (bard). Sometimes the rules feels a bit too much simplified  for my taste but it leaves more to roleplaying and the very strict limit on magical items work really well to balance things.

    You basically can have 3 powerful items since you need to bind them (yeah, you can unbind them as well), rings for instance are all requiring that to work and magic weapons that have anything more then simple +1-+3. My rogues boots of elvenkind does not have to be bound.

    That makes things far less complicated then Pathfinder where high level characters tend to have an insane amount of magical stuff on them. It also annoys the monty haul players a lot. ;)

    Sadly do the Forgotten realms campaign still suck, have not been good since 4th edition released.

    Personally do I wish they make a new AD&D edition. I liked AD&D, and don't let the "advanced" thing trick you, besides the Thac0 that mystified many players it was rather basic and simple.

    To this day, I still wonder at people who can't understand Thac0.
    I do my budget, manage bills, work a tech job and yet, I have to write the little chart down.  Drives me crazy: I can do  double entry accounting, but not THAC0 in my head.  

    Thac0 is a number you need to hit AC 0.  Suppose your Thac0 is 15.  Now, you might wonder how you hit AC 1?  You take Thac0 and subtract the AC to get the to hit number.  So 15 - 1 is 14.   If the AC was -1, you would do  15 - -1 for a 16.   And to be redundant, at AC0  15 - 0 = 15.  AC 10 would be 15 - 10 or 5 to hit.

    OR SIMPLY:  Take Thac0 and subtract the AC to know the minimum number to hit.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,304
    waynejr2 said:
    mgilbrtsn said:
    waynejr2 said:
    Loke666 said:
    I am not surprised. 

    D&D 3 and 3.5 got killed eventually by all the silly class books and similar, some by TSR while other 3rd part publishers. The game eventually got insanely unbalanced and players always bought weird books and demanding to use them for their characters.

    D&D 4 was just terrible, they tried to get the Wow players into it by using MMO mechanics. Worst D&D edition ever.

    Pathfinder have gotten into the same problem as D&D 3, too much additional books, crappy balance and the rules are getting more and more complicated.

    D&D 5 is very simple right now and the balance is at least better even though some classes still suck at low level (sorceror) while others get unplayable after lvl 12 unless the whole group plays then (bard). Sometimes the rules feels a bit too much simplified  for my taste but it leaves more to roleplaying and the very strict limit on magical items work really well to balance things.

    You basically can have 3 powerful items since you need to bind them (yeah, you can unbind them as well), rings for instance are all requiring that to work and magic weapons that have anything more then simple +1-+3. My rogues boots of elvenkind does not have to be bound.

    That makes things far less complicated then Pathfinder where high level characters tend to have an insane amount of magical stuff on them. It also annoys the monty haul players a lot. ;)

    Sadly do the Forgotten realms campaign still suck, have not been good since 4th edition released.

    Personally do I wish they make a new AD&D edition. I liked AD&D, and don't let the "advanced" thing trick you, besides the Thac0 that mystified many players it was rather basic and simple.

    To this day, I still wonder at people who can't understand Thac0.
    I do my budget, manage bills, work a tech job and yet, I have to write the little chart down.  Drives me crazy: I can do  double entry accounting, but not THAC0 in my head.  

    Thac0 is a number you need to hit AC 0.  Suppose your Thac0 is 15.  Now, you might wonder how you hit AC 1?  You take Thac0 and subtract the AC to get the to hit number.  So 15 - 1 is 14.   If the AC was -1, you would do  15 - -1 for a 16.   And to be redundant, at AC0  15 - 0 = 15.  AC 10 would be 15 - 10 or 5 to hit.

    OR SIMPLY:  Take Thac0 and subtract the AC to know the minimum number to hit.
    I know!!!  That's the sick, twisted part.  I'll have it explained:  It's incredibly easy:  I screw it up.  It's a mental block.  It's bizarre!!!
    Robsolf

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • DonpoohbearDonpoohbear Member UncommonPosts: 85
    id love more material for naval battles and such  pirate adventures woot 
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,429
    I gave up following D&D with the 4th edition.  I didn't understand the move to more MMORPG-like conventions and systems, then expecting a human GM to implement these.  That edition might have worked as part of an actual computerized game, but they tried to make it a p&p game.  Unfathomable!

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    waynejr2 said:
    mgilbrtsn said:
    waynejr2 said:
    Loke666 said:
    I am not surprised. 

    D&D 3 and 3.5 got killed eventually by all the silly class books and similar, some by TSR while other 3rd part publishers. The game eventually got insanely unbalanced and players always bought weird books and demanding to use them for their characters.

    D&D 4 was just terrible, they tried to get the Wow players into it by using MMO mechanics. Worst D&D edition ever.

    Pathfinder have gotten into the same problem as D&D 3, too much additional books, crappy balance and the rules are getting more and more complicated.

    D&D 5 is very simple right now and the balance is at least better even though some classes still suck at low level (sorceror) while others get unplayable after lvl 12 unless the whole group plays then (bard). Sometimes the rules feels a bit too much simplified  for my taste but it leaves more to roleplaying and the very strict limit on magical items work really well to balance things.

    You basically can have 3 powerful items since you need to bind them (yeah, you can unbind them as well), rings for instance are all requiring that to work and magic weapons that have anything more then simple +1-+3. My rogues boots of elvenkind does not have to be bound.

    That makes things far less complicated then Pathfinder where high level characters tend to have an insane amount of magical stuff on them. It also annoys the monty haul players a lot. ;)

    Sadly do the Forgotten realms campaign still suck, have not been good since 4th edition released.

    Personally do I wish they make a new AD&D edition. I liked AD&D, and don't let the "advanced" thing trick you, besides the Thac0 that mystified many players it was rather basic and simple.

    To this day, I still wonder at people who can't understand Thac0.
    I do my budget, manage bills, work a tech job and yet, I have to write the little chart down.  Drives me crazy: I can do  double entry accounting, but not THAC0 in my head.  

    Thac0 is a number you need to hit AC 0.  Suppose your Thac0 is 15.  Now, you might wonder how you hit AC 1?  You take Thac0 and subtract the AC to get the to hit number.  So 15 - 1 is 14.   If the AC was -1, you would do  15 - -1 for a 16.   And to be redundant, at AC0  15 - 0 = 15.  AC 10 would be 15 - 10 or 5 to hit.

    OR SIMPLY:  Take Thac0 and subtract the AC to know the minimum number to hit.
    That what "unnecessary complicated" means. 
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    Mendel said:
    I gave up following D&D with the 4th edition.  I didn't understand the move to more MMORPG-like conventions and systems, then expecting a human GM to implement these.  That edition might have worked as part of an actual computerized game, but they tried to make it a p&p game.  Unfathomable!
    You REALLY  should give 5thED a try. Like, for real, trust me on this.
    Ortho
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • penandpaperpenandpaper Member UncommonPosts: 173
    Oh, the hate for fourth is palpable... ;)

    I've personally thought all the systems I've played (from Advanced to 5th) have had their merits.  Personally, the largest problem in all RPG's is power creep, not the actual system.  Power creep breaks systems and drags combat into epically long sections of the game.  But the climb up is damn fun!  :)

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Nyctelios said:
    waynejr2 said:
    mgilbrtsn said:
    waynejr2 said:
    Loke666 said:
    I am not surprised. 

    D&D 3 and 3.5 got killed eventually by all the silly class books and similar, some by TSR while other 3rd part publishers. The game eventually got insanely unbalanced and players always bought weird books and demanding to use them for their characters.

    D&D 4 was just terrible, they tried to get the Wow players into it by using MMO mechanics. Worst D&D edition ever.

    Pathfinder have gotten into the same problem as D&D 3, too much additional books, crappy balance and the rules are getting more and more complicated.

    D&D 5 is very simple right now and the balance is at least better even though some classes still suck at low level (sorceror) while others get unplayable after lvl 12 unless the whole group plays then (bard). Sometimes the rules feels a bit too much simplified  for my taste but it leaves more to roleplaying and the very strict limit on magical items work really well to balance things.

    You basically can have 3 powerful items since you need to bind them (yeah, you can unbind them as well), rings for instance are all requiring that to work and magic weapons that have anything more then simple +1-+3. My rogues boots of elvenkind does not have to be bound.

    That makes things far less complicated then Pathfinder where high level characters tend to have an insane amount of magical stuff on them. It also annoys the monty haul players a lot. ;)

    Sadly do the Forgotten realms campaign still suck, have not been good since 4th edition released.

    Personally do I wish they make a new AD&D edition. I liked AD&D, and don't let the "advanced" thing trick you, besides the Thac0 that mystified many players it was rather basic and simple.

    To this day, I still wonder at people who can't understand Thac0.
    I do my budget, manage bills, work a tech job and yet, I have to write the little chart down.  Drives me crazy: I can do  double entry accounting, but not THAC0 in my head.  

    Thac0 is a number you need to hit AC 0.  Suppose your Thac0 is 15.  Now, you might wonder how you hit AC 1?  You take Thac0 and subtract the AC to get the to hit number.  So 15 - 1 is 14.   If the AC was -1, you would do  15 - -1 for a 16.   And to be redundant, at AC0  15 - 0 = 15.  AC 10 would be 15 - 10 or 5 to hit.

    OR SIMPLY:  Take Thac0 and subtract the AC to know the minimum number to hit.
    That what "unnecessary complicated" means. 

    Where is the complicated?
    Robsolf
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    waynejr2 said:
    Nyctelios said:
    waynejr2 said:
    mgilbrtsn said:
    waynejr2 said:
    Loke666 said:
    I am not surprised. 

    D&D 3 and 3.5 got killed eventually by all the silly class books and similar, some by TSR while other 3rd part publishers. The game eventually got insanely unbalanced and players always bought weird books and demanding to use them for their characters.

    D&D 4 was just terrible, they tried to get the Wow players into it by using MMO mechanics. Worst D&D edition ever.

    Pathfinder have gotten into the same problem as D&D 3, too much additional books, crappy balance and the rules are getting more and more complicated.

    D&D 5 is very simple right now and the balance is at least better even though some classes still suck at low level (sorceror) while others get unplayable after lvl 12 unless the whole group plays then (bard). Sometimes the rules feels a bit too much simplified  for my taste but it leaves more to roleplaying and the very strict limit on magical items work really well to balance things.

    You basically can have 3 powerful items since you need to bind them (yeah, you can unbind them as well), rings for instance are all requiring that to work and magic weapons that have anything more then simple +1-+3. My rogues boots of elvenkind does not have to be bound.

    That makes things far less complicated then Pathfinder where high level characters tend to have an insane amount of magical stuff on them. It also annoys the monty haul players a lot. ;)

    Sadly do the Forgotten realms campaign still suck, have not been good since 4th edition released.

    Personally do I wish they make a new AD&D edition. I liked AD&D, and don't let the "advanced" thing trick you, besides the Thac0 that mystified many players it was rather basic and simple.

    To this day, I still wonder at people who can't understand Thac0.
    I do my budget, manage bills, work a tech job and yet, I have to write the little chart down.  Drives me crazy: I can do  double entry accounting, but not THAC0 in my head.  

    Thac0 is a number you need to hit AC 0.  Suppose your Thac0 is 15.  Now, you might wonder how you hit AC 1?  You take Thac0 and subtract the AC to get the to hit number.  So 15 - 1 is 14.   If the AC was -1, you would do  15 - -1 for a 16.   And to be redundant, at AC0  15 - 0 = 15.  AC 10 would be 15 - 10 or 5 to hit.

    OR SIMPLY:  Take Thac0 and subtract the AC to know the minimum number to hit.
    That what "unnecessary complicated" means. 

    Where is the complicated?
    When you can streamline to something more accessible. 

    This sorta "elitism" in rpg systems made them look bad for too long. I lost count how many people gave up trying to play because they felt stupid they could not understand "a game" on the first time. We are talking about entertainment and gaming here, the point is to be a good interface to the player, not one that requires the player to think beyond the necessary.

    How is it complicated? When any other does better and easily? Why the standard metric would be a mid point instead of being a increasing number like is the actual method? You get your PROF, add your d20 roll plus bonus and if reaches AC you hit. It follows the same principle as the rest of the game and its mechanics (skill, att rolls, etc). It is streamlined, it's logical, it's intuitive.

    Thac0 is jut a system someone tried to make something that could easily be simple and efficient and just became unnecessary complicated for the sake of being unnecessary complicated.

    Thank Ao for 5thEd.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    Oh, the hate for fourth is palpable... ;)

    I've personally thought all the systems I've played (from Advanced to 5th) have had their merits.  Personally, the largest problem in all RPG's is power creep, not the actual system.  Power creep breaks systems and drags combat into epically long sections of the game.  But the climb up is damn fun!  :)

    Hardly hate, the mechanics themselves are something that is not what RPG and it's freedom meant to be.

    If you want the mechanics blocking your actions you can easily play a board game. It's cheaper and it's quicker to set up.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Nyctelios said:
    waynejr2 said:
    Nyctelios said:
    waynejr2 said:
    mgilbrtsn said:
    waynejr2 said:
    Loke666 said:
    I am not surprised. 

    D&D 3 and 3.5 got killed eventually by all the silly class books and similar, some by TSR while other 3rd part publishers. The game eventually got insanely unbalanced and players always bought weird books and demanding to use them for their characters.

    D&D 4 was just terrible, they tried to get the Wow players into it by using MMO mechanics. Worst D&D edition ever.

    Pathfinder have gotten into the same problem as D&D 3, too much additional books, crappy balance and the rules are getting more and more complicated.

    D&D 5 is very simple right now and the balance is at least better even though some classes still suck at low level (sorceror) while others get unplayable after lvl 12 unless the whole group plays then (bard). Sometimes the rules feels a bit too much simplified  for my taste but it leaves more to roleplaying and the very strict limit on magical items work really well to balance things.

    You basically can have 3 powerful items since you need to bind them (yeah, you can unbind them as well), rings for instance are all requiring that to work and magic weapons that have anything more then simple +1-+3. My rogues boots of elvenkind does not have to be bound.

    That makes things far less complicated then Pathfinder where high level characters tend to have an insane amount of magical stuff on them. It also annoys the monty haul players a lot. ;)

    Sadly do the Forgotten realms campaign still suck, have not been good since 4th edition released.

    Personally do I wish they make a new AD&D edition. I liked AD&D, and don't let the "advanced" thing trick you, besides the Thac0 that mystified many players it was rather basic and simple.

    To this day, I still wonder at people who can't understand Thac0.
    I do my budget, manage bills, work a tech job and yet, I have to write the little chart down.  Drives me crazy: I can do  double entry accounting, but not THAC0 in my head.  

    Thac0 is a number you need to hit AC 0.  Suppose your Thac0 is 15.  Now, you might wonder how you hit AC 1?  You take Thac0 and subtract the AC to get the to hit number.  So 15 - 1 is 14.   If the AC was -1, you would do  15 - -1 for a 16.   And to be redundant, at AC0  15 - 0 = 15.  AC 10 would be 15 - 10 or 5 to hit.

    OR SIMPLY:  Take Thac0 and subtract the AC to know the minimum number to hit.
    That what "unnecessary complicated" means. 

    Where is the complicated?
    When you can streamline to something more accessible. 

    This sorta "elitism" in rpg systems made them look bad for too long. I lost count how many people gave up trying to play because they felt stupid they could not understand "a game" on the first time. We are talking about entertainment and gaming here, the point is to be a good interface to the player, not one that requires the player to think beyond the necessary.

    How is it complicated? When any other does better and easily? Why the standard metric would be a mid point instead of being a increasing number like is the actual method? You get your PROF, add your d20 roll plus bonus and if reaches AC you hit. It follows the same principle as the rest of the game and its mechanics (skill, att rolls, etc). It is streamlined, it's logical, it's intuitive.

    Thac0 is jut a system someone tried to make something that could easily be simple and efficient and just became unnecessary complicated for the sake of being unnecessary complicated.

    Thank Ao for 5thEd.

    Saying another system does something different/better isn't helpful. 

    Tell me explicitly what you find "complicated" about THAC0?  Don't talk about other systems.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800
    waynejr2 said:

    Tell me explicitly what you find "complicated" about THAC0?  Don't talk about other systems.
    Well... a lot of people found THAC0 confusing.  Mainly because of the -# AC means harder for monster to get hit.  The system (while I had no problem with it) seemed to many to not really 'fit' right.  Also the original presentation of it from 2nd edition was a little vague, if I remember correctly.  Companies have gotten better through the years with page layouts for systems.  I know there were plenty of friends I've had to show that THAC0 chart to myself and then explained the system.  In fact I had it explained to me the first time as well.

    All the being said I LOVED 2nd edition.  Loved it.  I thought 3.5 was good and didn't really like 4.0.  Funny thing is I would have prob liked 4.0 if it was a different game and a little more board game focused, perhaps like Descent.

    I will say this that those that have not played D&D 5th edition and consider yourself an old school D&D player, you should really check it out.  5th edition is by far my favorite iteration of the D&D universe.  It's flexible, streamlined and allows for DMs to run the game by using map and miniatures or theater of the mind.  This is my opinion is a HUGE benefit for many gamers, since a lot of playgroups vary on what they like.  

    The gang at WotC have done a phenomenal job responding to feedback from the player base and the system really shines because of it.
Sign In or Register to comment.