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why pve is better

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  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,157
    PVE is great, but there should be PVE, PVP, and PVX, or rather PVE/P mixed together basically PVE as in you go out to slay monsters for resources but there are other players compete for the same thing so PVEP meaning you can die and they can kill the boss or acquire items as well aka like a survival kinda thing.
    gunklacker
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    SIMPLE,like VERY simple...

    PVE does NOT need to be balanced and actually thrives on not being balanced,PVP needs to be balanced or the game takes a huge nosedive.
    So what is better,a failed game or a game that thrives,yeah pretty obvious.

    This question of course is taken to mean IF done in a mmorpg because in a first person shooter it is the complete opposite albeit still needs to be balanced.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,157
    Wizardry said:
    SIMPLE,like VERY simple...

    PVE does NOT need to be balanced and actually thrives on not being balanced,PVP needs to be balanced or the game takes a huge nosedive.
    So what is better,a failed game or a game that thrives,yeah pretty obvious.

    This question of course is taken to mean IF done in a mmorpg because in a first person shooter it is the complete opposite albeit still needs to be balanced.
    Balanced as in skills this is why u have two different skill settings one for PVP against otehr players and one that effects other bosses and display both effects / damage stats on the skills.

    You do this when you first start design or development.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited August 2017
    In both PvE and PvP there is an important balance question.

    Is there a point to every class / type of character?

    For instance if you have three general archetypes of melee / magic / ranged is there a reason people would play all of those, or would a team of all magic characters be better than a mixed team in so many more scenarios people never play the other two?

    If one of those archetypes can win almost every 1 v 1 duel but they all have their own reasons they are good, then balance is ok. It's when you feel forced into playing certain specs because they are the only viable ones in nearly every scenario that balance is an issue.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    lol .. there is no such thing as "better". It is all personal preferences. 
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Iselin said:
    Loke666 said:

    People will not fund just a good idea, you need to back it up with something that makes a finnished game likely, a good finnished game.
    Not that I was serious in the first place but the current record holder for highest funded MMO in KS history is Steven Shariff, a former(?) MLM vitamin salesman:  http://www.mmo-central.com/2017/06/03/ashes-creation-tops-kickstarter-mmo-funding/
    Ouch, that hurts. :cry:
     I meant "People should not fund just a good idea..." but I forgot that more then a few people are suckers for good marketting and buy anything if it have the right add.
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Iselin said:
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    Actually if you think that through you'd realize that the "unbalanced crap" you're referring to is no different in the PVE of most MMOs where a level 40 also has no chance to beat a level 60 mob. Why is it so much easier to grin and bear it when it's the AI of a higher level mob and not another player handing you your ass?
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    You don't sound as if you have a lot of experience with PvP games...

    image
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,803
    The reason why PVE is better for me is at the end of the day I want to like my fellow players, not dislike them....I would rather work together with other players than fight against them.
    gunklacker
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,096
    The reason why PVE is better for me is at the end of the day I want to like my fellow players, not dislike them....I would rather work together with other players than fight against them.
    That's probably one of the most understandable explanations I have seen.

    That said, my counter would be that if NPCs were really intelligent then it should be hard to distinguish between an AI controlled NPC and a player.

    Loke666

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  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    edited August 2017
    I like to plan out what I'm doing for a session.  Dungeons, crafting, exploration, etc.  In PvP others can come along and plan your activities.  You can end up spending your time going back and forth in PvP.  Unless it's zoned or flagged then you have a choice to PvP or PvE that day.  
    [Deleted User]

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775


    That said, my counter would be that if NPCs were really intelligent then it should be hard to distinguish between an AI controlled NPC and a player.

    It is not like you cannot already treat players as NPCs.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    The reason why PVE is better for me is at the end of the day I want to like my fellow players, not dislike them....I would rather work together with other players than fight against them.
    In a good PvP game you do work together with other players as well against a common enemy, the difference is that the enemy have other players behind them.

    Of course in a bad game everyone and their mother will constantly try to murder and rob you and I see why that isn't very relaxing or comfortable.

    You generally don't dislike players in FPS games you fight (or at least most people don't), the problem really isn't PvP in itself, just that MMOs often have between so-so and terrible PvP.
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    You don't sound as if you have a lot of experience with PvP games...
    Yeah, I just started with UO beta 20+ years ago. My experience is quite short indeed.
    If you are dying over and over again from the same person means you haven't learned any from your death.

    If you are being camped that's means you failed a very basic PvP rule "Only wear what you can afford to lose". Every experienced PvP player knows this and if I die I consider my items forfeit.

    I would expect corpse camping, repeated deaths and noob camping to happen to someone new to PvP games... not someone who's been playing for 20 years.

    image
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    If you are dying over and over again from the same person means you haven't learned any from your death.

    If you are being camped that's means you failed a very basic PvP rule "Only wear what you can afford to lose". Every experienced PvP player knows this and if I die I consider my items forfeit.

    I would expect corpse camping, repeated deaths and noob camping to happen to someone new to PvP games... not someone who's been playing for 20 years.
    There have always been a problem with that thinking: What is the need of any above basic gear if you wont wear it?

    Full loot PvP was unpopular 20 years ago (but back then you could basically just choose between Meridian 59 and UO so UO did fine even if they added the Trammel pretty soon to keep more players) and it is unpopular today.

    It is also illogical due to MMOs silly carrying capacity. If that part was realistic people would just loot what they actually needed because they couldn't carry very much. Ever wore a real armor? I have a viking armor which actually is relatively light, a chainmail, helmet & bracers, about 20 kg. Could I carry a backup of that armor in a backpack and still fight and walk around? Not for long.

    What we need is something in between full loot and no loot, just let people drop one item instead of all of them. And yes, there is already a game that been doing something like that since 1999: Lineage. Guess which PvP game that have more players then all the full loot games put together? And that game have been around 18 years and still keeps that up.

    We could actually just have 2 server settings for the same game to make both of us happy but don't expect too many people on the full loot server.

    In my case I started PvE in 1996 with Meridian 59 and PvP with Lineage in 2001 (the western beta) so I played my part of PvP as well. I like PvP but the full loot thing gets old pretty fast. I can certainly afford to loose a random of my equipped gear and I will wear better gear that way making your loot actually better.

    1 random equipped item + more realitic carrying capacity = more fun.

    And you are free to call me a carebear for that if you want to but we both know itr would increase the player numbers a lot.
    [Deleted User]
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    By your own admission they still happen though. NPC's don't do that which is what he stated.
    [Deleted User]
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • RufusUORufusUO Member UncommonPosts: 37
    When I first read the title, I had a strong suspicion that this was a troll thread.

    After looking through the pages and seeing the OP disappear after p1, I suspect it was intended to spark flame wars between others.

    Resist the bait, friends, resiiiiiiist!
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Asheron's Call had that too. You didn't drop all your items, just a few of your most expensive ones. You could cover your worn gear with expensive stuff. Death and looting would still cost, but you wouldn't end naked and defenseless.
    Also, low levels didn't drop crap. So noob camping was pointless except for being a true asshole.
    And levels didn't matter as much as player skill, a skilled level 20 could easily beat a bad level 40.
    Heh, forgot  about that. Yeah, AC was a good game. :)
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    You don't sound as if you have a lot of experience with PvP games...
    Yeah, I just started with UO beta 20+ years ago. My experience is quite short indeed.
    If you are dying over and over again from the same person means you haven't learned any from your death.

    If you are being camped that's means you failed a very basic PvP rule "Only wear what you can afford to lose". Every experienced PvP player knows this and if I die I consider my items forfeit.

    I would expect corpse camping, repeated deaths and noob camping to happen to someone new to PvP games... not someone who's been playing for 20 years.
    You don't make any sense, what the hell has what you're wearing and drop on the first death to do with being spawn/zone camped.
    And you pretend being more experienced?

    This is exactly what kills FFA PvP games. And this is what already forced UO to patch in Trammel during renaissance, to stop the massive player bleeding.
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, (((( doesn't camp your graveyard))) doesn't follow you around in low level areas.

    I assumed you meant your gravestone, which contain items after death. I also assumed that one would return to such a place to retrieve such items, equipment, etcetera. If this is not what you meant... then I apologize for any misunderstandings. =)

    image
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Loke666 said:
    If you are dying over and over again from the same person means you haven't learned any from your death.

    If you are being camped that's means you failed a very basic PvP rule "Only wear what you can afford to lose". Every experienced PvP player knows this and if I die I consider my items forfeit.

    I would expect corpse camping, repeated deaths and noob camping to happen to someone new to PvP games... not someone who's been playing for 20 years.
    There have always been a problem with that thinking: What is the need of any above basic gear if you wont wear it?


    The only problem I see is the mentality gamers go into a PvP game with. Gear in a PvP FL MMO and Gear in a PvE are wildly different and should not be viewed the same.

    Before you go out you are supposed to have a healthy set of items to prepare for your death. You should be able to craft the very basic items needed to fight efficiently. Armor shouldn't determine the outcome of your encounter, only how many mistakes were made. I've seen skilled players even in games like DaoC (which gear is a factor) completely obliterate other players NAKED. This however, is not the goal, the goal is you being able to craft the essentials yourself and prepare for your death. 

    My mentality "If you can beat me... you were going to beat me no matter what I was wearing"

    image
  • SirBalinSirBalin Member UncommonPosts: 1,300
    pvp in a nutshell

    win

    1. u play good
    2. u feed but team play good
    3. opponent play bad
    4. lucky

    lose 

    1. u play bad
    2. u play good but team feed like hell
    3. opponent play good
    4. bad luck

    pve? win everything and roleplay in your mind
    Bottom line, games need pvp and pve servers.  To often they try to make both pvers and pvpers happy on the same server and in the end, both sides will never be happy.
    gunklacker

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,803
    The reason why PVE is better for me is at the end of the day I want to like my fellow players, not dislike them....I would rather work together with other players than fight against them.
    That's probably one of the most understandable explanations I have seen.

    That said, my counter would be that if NPCs were really intelligent then it should be hard to distinguish between an AI controlled NPC and a player.

    Right thats up to the devs and game makers.....They have to quit making so much of it so easy that we dont need anyone else.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    The only problem I see is the mentality gamers go into a PvP game with. Gear in a PvP FL MMO and Gear in a PvE are wildly different and should not be viewed the same.

    Before you go out you are supposed to have a healthy set of items to prepare for your death. You should be able to craft the very basic items needed to fight efficiently. Armor shouldn't determine the outcome of your encounter, only how many mistakes were made. I've seen skilled players even in games like DaoC (which gear is a factor) completely obliterate other players NAKED. This however, is not the goal, the goal is you being able to craft the essentials yourself and prepare for your death. 

    My mentality "If you can beat me... you were going to beat me no matter what I was wearing"
    Yes, and you would loose any gear with the Lineage/AC system as well, just not by dying a single time.

    Constantly replacing all gear adds a rather boring grind to a game.  Yeah, it is a kick to defeat someone and loot them but a single item would give you almost the same kick. You can also put a little more work into gear.

    Gear certainly should not be the determined factor of a battle, just an edge.

    Anyways: the majority of people hate full loot PvP. The single loot thing can and will attract much more players. Lineage had 4 million players last winter (unsure now), that is subscribing players and it peaked way higher. How much players have the top full loot game ever had?

    It was UOs peak at 450K players, right?

    While it is fine to make small niche game for a specific crowd I think we need something more then that and a full loot game won't deliver it. So if we want a popular PvP game we will either get something instanced with zero loot or something more like Lineage with open world and a single lootable item each time. Both those methods work and have clearly generated many players in the past.
    [Deleted User]
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    It was 250K, and let's not forget this was 2 years AFTER Trammel was introduced.
    My misstake, checked on a wall of text and accidently looked on the next line which was EQ. :blush:

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,662
    edited August 2017
    Iselin said:
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    Actually if you think that through you'd realize that the "unbalanced crap" you're referring to is no different in the PVE of most MMOs where a level 40 also has no chance to beat a level 60 mob. Why is it so much easier to grin and bear it when it's the AI of a higher level mob and not another player handing you your ass?
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    Maybe they should, instead of standing around like brainless statues.

    I'd actually like to see a MMO where the AI was a real threat for players to overcome,  but just as with unbalanced PVP I doubt many would enjoy it.

    People generally expect to win, especially in PVE,  take that away and my guess is few will play.

    Although...modern survival games appear to somewhat rely on this design, and are quite popular, so perhaps I'm underestimating the demand.

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  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Kyleran said:
    Maybe they should, instead of standing around like brainless statues.

    I'd actually like to see a MMO where the AI was a real threat for players to overcome,  but just as with unbalanced PVP I doubt many would enjoy it.

    People generally expect to win, especially in PVE,  take that away and my guess is few will play.

    Although...modern survival games appear to somewhat rely on this design, and are quite popular, so perhaps I'm underestimating the demand.
    The hard thing is to get the AI just right, you don't want it to be better then human players after all, just similar or just below.

    I think enough people would enjoy it, not as many as enjoyed Wow of course but still enough to make a pretty good profit if the rest of the game is good.
    [Deleted User]
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