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why pve is better

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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Iselin said:

    That's what KS was made for. Just describe your ideas as you do here, buy some unity assets, make a video and go for it. The KS results should tell you all you need to know about the demand for RPG MMOs with little progression.
    "Hi. My game design experience includes playing around with a game maker I forgot the name of in middle/elementary school and making custom scenarios in Age of Empires II. I have an idea for a game and all I need is 50 million dollars to pull it off."

    There is something called a resume and qualifications. Notice how all the successful kickstarters had lead developers with a little thing called "previous experience"? Notice how they also had some kind of gameplay footage in their kickstarters?

    You don't just go out, and post up your ideas on kickstarter with no-qualifications and no initial investment. It's a bit more complex than that.

    Like I said, spot me 50 million and I'll make the game you want. And I'd start by hiring people with some actual qualifications.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,306
    Eldurian said:
    Iselin said:

    That's what KS was made for. Just describe your ideas as you do here, buy some unity assets, make a video and go for it. The KS results should tell you all you need to know about the demand for RPG MMOs with little progression.
    "Hi. My game design experience includes playing around with a game maker I forgot the name of in middle/elementary school and making custom scenarios in Age of Empires II. I have an idea for a game and all I need is 50 million dollars to pull it off."

    There is something called a resume and qualifications. Notice how all the successful kickstarters had lead developers with a little thing called "previous experience"? Notice how they also had some kind of gameplay footage in their kickstarters?

    You don't just go out, and post up your ideas on kickstarter with no-qualifications and no initial investment. It's a bit more complex than that.

    Like I said, spot me 50 million and I'll make the game you want. And I'd start by hiring people with some actual qualifications.
    You're being too humble. Your experience is probably above average for KS producers. You jut need to hire the right people. Matter of fact your ideas about future hires is usually part of the pitch. 
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    I think you are massively underestimating the experience of Kickstarter developers. My favorite game ever, a game I played obsessively throughout my entire time in high-school was called Freelancer. Developed by Chris Roberts.

    Star Citizen Lead Dev = Chris Roberts

    Ultima Online is considered one if the pioneers of the MMO genre and is greatly beloved. Lead developer was Richard Garriott.

    Shroud of the Avatar Leader Developer = Richard Garriott

    Go down the list of kickstarter MMOs. You will find people who worked on SWG, Ultima, Shadowbane etc. etc. etc.

    By far the least qualified developer to get a Kickstarter off the ground was Ryan Dancey who still had experience working for CCP as a marketer and lots of references in the pen and paper industry.

    You don't just go on kickstarter with no experience and nothing to show and ask for money. If I ever develop an MMO it will be through money I've earned through other ventures I'm a bit more qualified to start. Not through panhandling online with nothing but ideas of what would make a cool game.



  • healboothealboot Member UncommonPosts: 100
    pvp in a massively multiplayer game is great! Then add in the role playing aspect awesome!  As long as the focus of the roles being played is who's got the biggest sword. If the focus is exploring new places and helping the local population with defeating monsters with big swords I don't see what would draw pvp players towards it?
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Eldurian said:
    Iselin said:

    That's what KS was made for. Just describe your ideas as you do here, buy some unity assets, make a video and go for it. The KS results should tell you all you need to know about the demand for RPG MMOs with little progression.
    "Hi. My game design experience includes playing around with a game maker I forgot the name of in middle/elementary school and making custom scenarios in Age of Empires II. I have an idea for a game and all I need is 50 million dollars to pull it off."

    There is something called a resume and qualifications. Notice how all the successful kickstarters had lead developers with a little thing called "previous experience"? Notice how they also had some kind of gameplay footage in their kickstarters?

    You don't just go out, and post up your ideas on kickstarter with no-qualifications and no initial investment. It's a bit more complex than that.

    Like I said, spot me 50 million and I'll make the game you want. And I'd start by hiring people with some actual qualifications.
    Yeah, you can't really make a good MMORPG without a good lead programmer no matter how great your ideas is. Vanguard proved that if nothing else, it had great ideas but lousy programing. It might never had become a huge hit but with a good lead programmer it would still be around.

    People who do art and write story might do fine with enough talent and other experience, story guys could be writers make pen and paper RPG products or just be really good at writing and you could certainly find talented people for concept art on Deviant art but for other people you need experience in the genre or at least something close to it.

    For instance, the team that coded Guildwars did code and design Warcraft 3 first, moving to a CORPG after that was no problem.

    The hard part is finding a good lead programmer, they are not that common and certainly tend to be employed. The only 2 I know works at Massive (well, at least we been drinking together more then a few times but neither of them are close friends). I also know a couple of people that can code but not good enough to lead. My own coding is rather bad unless we are talking about coding industrial machines of course, that I do for a living.

    So before even considering a kickstarter you need to find at least a good lead programmer and someone good at 3D studio Max or a similar program. Also, you need at least a small demo that test your basic mechanics so you know they work and have something to show people.

    Unless you can get a lead designer that people will buy anything from. I personally would fund anything Strain, Kaplan or Van Caneghem would kickstart, no questions asked. I know they would give me something for my cash and 2 of those people could lead program themselves while Kaplan certainly would find someone good anyways. None of the people like that would be involved in someone elses kickstarter though and either of them could get funding from an AAA publisher anyways  (a few best selling games tend to make that easier)so the point is kinda moot.

    People will not fund just a good idea, you need to back it up with something that makes a finnished game likely, a good finnished game.
    Torval
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,306
    Loke666 said:

    People will not fund just a good idea, you need to back it up with something that makes a finnished game likely, a good finnished game.
    Not that I was serious in the first place but the current record holder for highest funded MMO in KS history is Steven Shariff, a former(?) MLM vitamin salesman:  http://www.mmo-central.com/2017/06/03/ashes-creation-tops-kickstarter-mmo-funding/
    Kyleran
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,063
    DMKano said:
    Cake vs Pie

    It's a personal preference - one, neither or both
    You can compare those. In a bake-a-cake contest, a pie entry would be considered a very shitty cake.

    Just saying :p
    Kyleran
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,338
    edited August 2017
     I prefer the imbalance in MMORPG RvR PvP , and history seems to show it was the best experience for the majority of players that were there ..UO,DAOC, SWG ,ACDarktide, Warhammer, AO, all had imbalance in class vs class .. But it also cutivated the community , made battles exciting unpredictable and the most fun i have had in any PvP .. The exact balance act we are seeing now  , becomes very predictable and boring .. the irony of it ,,,
    IselinSlapshot1188Kyleran
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,119
    PVE is great, but there should be PVE, PVP, and PVX, or rather PVE/P mixed together basically PVE as in you go out to slay monsters for resources but there are other players compete for the same thing so PVEP meaning you can die and they can kill the boss or acquire items as well aka like a survival kinda thing.
    gunklacker
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,649
    SIMPLE,like VERY simple...

    PVE does NOT need to be balanced and actually thrives on not being balanced,PVP needs to be balanced or the game takes a huge nosedive.
    So what is better,a failed game or a game that thrives,yeah pretty obvious.

    This question of course is taken to mean IF done in a mmorpg because in a first person shooter it is the complete opposite albeit still needs to be balanced.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,119
    Wizardry said:
    SIMPLE,like VERY simple...

    PVE does NOT need to be balanced and actually thrives on not being balanced,PVP needs to be balanced or the game takes a huge nosedive.
    So what is better,a failed game or a game that thrives,yeah pretty obvious.

    This question of course is taken to mean IF done in a mmorpg because in a first person shooter it is the complete opposite albeit still needs to be balanced.
    Balanced as in skills this is why u have two different skill settings one for PVP against otehr players and one that effects other bosses and display both effects / damage stats on the skills.

    You do this when you first start design or development.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited August 2017
    In both PvE and PvP there is an important balance question.

    Is there a point to every class / type of character?

    For instance if you have three general archetypes of melee / magic / ranged is there a reason people would play all of those, or would a team of all magic characters be better than a mixed team in so many more scenarios people never play the other two?

    If one of those archetypes can win almost every 1 v 1 duel but they all have their own reasons they are good, then balance is ok. It's when you feel forced into playing certain specs because they are the only viable ones in nearly every scenario that balance is an issue.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,156
    Iselin said:
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    Actually if you think that through you'd realize that the "unbalanced crap" you're referring to is no different in the PVE of most MMOs where a level 40 also has no chance to beat a level 60 mob. Why is it so much easier to grin and bear it when it's the AI of a higher level mob and not another player handing you your ass?
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    lol .. there is no such thing as "better". It is all personal preferences. 
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Iselin said:
    Loke666 said:

    People will not fund just a good idea, you need to back it up with something that makes a finnished game likely, a good finnished game.
    Not that I was serious in the first place but the current record holder for highest funded MMO in KS history is Steven Shariff, a former(?) MLM vitamin salesman:  http://www.mmo-central.com/2017/06/03/ashes-creation-tops-kickstarter-mmo-funding/
    Ouch, that hurts. :cry:
     I meant "People should not fund just a good idea..." but I forgot that more then a few people are suckers for good marketting and buy anything if it have the right add.
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Iselin said:
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    Actually if you think that through you'd realize that the "unbalanced crap" you're referring to is no different in the PVE of most MMOs where a level 40 also has no chance to beat a level 60 mob. Why is it so much easier to grin and bear it when it's the AI of a higher level mob and not another player handing you your ass?
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    You don't sound as if you have a lot of experience with PvP games...

    image
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,560
    The reason why PVE is better for me is at the end of the day I want to like my fellow players, not dislike them....I would rather work together with other players than fight against them.
    gunklacker
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,098
    The reason why PVE is better for me is at the end of the day I want to like my fellow players, not dislike them....I would rather work together with other players than fight against them.
    That's probably one of the most understandable explanations I have seen.

    That said, my counter would be that if NPCs were really intelligent then it should be hard to distinguish between an AI controlled NPC and a player.

    Loke666

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  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,966
    edited August 2017
    I like to plan out what I'm doing for a session.  Dungeons, crafting, exploration, etc.  In PvP others can come along and plan your activities.  You can end up spending your time going back and forth in PvP.  Unless it's zoned or flagged then you have a choice to PvP or PvE that day.  
    Torval

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774


    That said, my counter would be that if NPCs were really intelligent then it should be hard to distinguish between an AI controlled NPC and a player.

    It is not like you cannot already treat players as NPCs.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    The reason why PVE is better for me is at the end of the day I want to like my fellow players, not dislike them....I would rather work together with other players than fight against them.
    In a good PvP game you do work together with other players as well against a common enemy, the difference is that the enemy have other players behind them.

    Of course in a bad game everyone and their mother will constantly try to murder and rob you and I see why that isn't very relaxing or comfortable.

    You generally don't dislike players in FPS games you fight (or at least most people don't), the problem really isn't PvP in itself, just that MMOs often have between so-so and terrible PvP.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,156
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    You don't sound as if you have a lot of experience with PvP games...
    Yeah, I just started with UO beta 20+ years ago. My experience is quite short indeed.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    You don't sound as if you have a lot of experience with PvP games...
    Yeah, I just started with UO beta 20+ years ago. My experience is quite short indeed.
    If you are dying over and over again from the same person means you haven't learned any from your death.

    If you are being camped that's means you failed a very basic PvP rule "Only wear what you can afford to lose". Every experienced PvP player knows this and if I die I consider my items forfeit.

    I would expect corpse camping, repeated deaths and noob camping to happen to someone new to PvP games... not someone who's been playing for 20 years.

    image
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    If you are dying over and over again from the same person means you haven't learned any from your death.

    If you are being camped that's means you failed a very basic PvP rule "Only wear what you can afford to lose". Every experienced PvP player knows this and if I die I consider my items forfeit.

    I would expect corpse camping, repeated deaths and noob camping to happen to someone new to PvP games... not someone who's been playing for 20 years.
    There have always been a problem with that thinking: What is the need of any above basic gear if you wont wear it?

    Full loot PvP was unpopular 20 years ago (but back then you could basically just choose between Meridian 59 and UO so UO did fine even if they added the Trammel pretty soon to keep more players) and it is unpopular today.

    It is also illogical due to MMOs silly carrying capacity. If that part was realistic people would just loot what they actually needed because they couldn't carry very much. Ever wore a real armor? I have a viking armor which actually is relatively light, a chainmail, helmet & bracers, about 20 kg. Could I carry a backup of that armor in a backpack and still fight and walk around? Not for long.

    What we need is something in between full loot and no loot, just let people drop one item instead of all of them. And yes, there is already a game that been doing something like that since 1999: Lineage. Guess which PvP game that have more players then all the full loot games put together? And that game have been around 18 years and still keeps that up.

    We could actually just have 2 server settings for the same game to make both of us happy but don't expect too many people on the full loot server.

    In my case I started PvE in 1996 with Meridian 59 and PvP with Lineage in 2001 (the western beta) so I played my part of PvP as well. I like PvP but the full loot thing gets old pretty fast. I can certainly afford to loose a random of my equipped gear and I will wear better gear that way making your loot actually better.

    1 random equipped item + more realitic carrying capacity = more fun.

    And you are free to call me a carebear for that if you want to but we both know itr would increase the player numbers a lot.
    Torval
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,156
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    You don't sound as if you have a lot of experience with PvP games...
    Yeah, I just started with UO beta 20+ years ago. My experience is quite short indeed.
    If you are dying over and over again from the same person means you haven't learned any from your death.

    If you are being camped that's means you failed a very basic PvP rule "Only wear what you can afford to lose". Every experienced PvP player knows this and if I die I consider my items forfeit.

    I would expect corpse camping, repeated deaths and noob camping to happen to someone new to PvP games... not someone who's been playing for 20 years.
    You don't make any sense, what the hell has what you're wearing and drop on the first death to do with being spawn/zone camped.
    And you pretend being more experienced?

    This is exactly what kills FFA PvP games. And this is what already forced UO to patch in Trammel during renaissance, to stop the massive player bleeding.
    Slapshot1188
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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