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Chronicles of Elyria - A Delayed Concern - MMORPG.com

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Comments

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    MaxBacon said:
    Iselin said:
    An MMORPG in 18 months...

    Nah. No one could be that naive. So I reject the overoptimism and reality bubble ideas. Not a single person in this planet who has ever even played an MMO, much less someone attempting to develop one could possibly delude themselves into thinking that this would be doable in 18 months.

    There's only one plausible explanation and that is that it always was a deliberate deception.
    That's the same vibe I got from CoE, that was why I did not back it. It was the too much, too soon and for a small amount of money.

    People should be more accepting of crowd funded projects without demanding release dates from the beginning, allowing for hype trains being driven the same way they are by the big publishers and titles that do rarely give dates before the release is close. 

    People want realistic estimates, but if they do conservative estimates that mean a long time that drives off interest pretty quickly, so if people do not benefit that then the viable strategy is continuously stretch delivery dates to be as soon as possible.
    The problem of securing funding for a long-term project is the developer's, not the consumers.  We shouldn't give them a pass just because they're asking us for money directly to fund the project; that's asking to be blindly taken advantage of.

    Totally agree! The biggest issue with KS MMORPGs is that they are nearly never completely fan-funded. Therefore, we are relying on the developers to secure additional funding to make it happen, unless you start with a literal MVP, but nobody would stick around and pay for something that isn't full of features anyway.  So the idea of funding an MMO via crowdfunding is hilariously flawed to begin with. Whether it be an industry vet or a complete noob, nobody has hit dates particularly well in this genre. Don't fool yourself into thinking that some aren't given a pass, though.

    That being said, there are also some that would have you believe that this is something that is solved with experience and fancy gantt charts. However, there are other projects with very experienced industry vets which are years off the rails as well, so I'd say that there is also a lot of over-simplification that takes place here as well. Either that, or we've got a metric fuck ton of AWESOME project managers here who are spending their time posting about their own greatness when they could be making millions by solving what appears to be an industry epidemic. For the life of me, I simply cannot figure out how someone would accept a gantt with a 12-month allowance for the inability to find talent, on top of the actual schedule for the hiring process, lol. I'm not a PM, though, so I'm sure there is a button in MS Project for that :wink:
    MendelGdemami

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,866
    edited August 2017
    @MadFrenchie @CrazKanuk You will see that there is a problem.

    If I go in KS to fund a game I am creating, when it comes to give estimates, say I myself in a conservative matter would expect my project to take 4 years to create. But, if I'm optimistic (then unrealistic) and all goes as planned without any problems, I can stretch that to 2 years.

    Now here's the deal, If I ask you to fund my game and say it's going to take 4 years to create, you'll likely not fund me, if I stretch it to 2 years, you're more likely to fund me.

    See the problem? People say they want the realistic estimate but at the same time they wouldn't support the project if so, what would turn out those projects would struggle to fund themselves if not even failing to do so because of it.

    I do not like or stand by giving passes to those who do that, but it's really annoying if you give a conservative estimate you drive off the interest (without proven interest you'll also struggle at getting investors) and would fail at fund your project, then your only viability is doing the opposite.
  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,499
    Anyone who puts in solid gantt chart timelines for a complex project like this is either a rookie or extremely optimistic.  Unless you have a overly simplistic project, all a gantt chart does is give you an idea of what you work on next.  Even experienced project managers usually create a timeline far shorter than it will actually be.

    We are dealing with an extremely inexperienced game developer here.  Anyone with experience knows that feature creep has killed more projects.  This idiot kept adding features.  Hence many people mocking the game as they should.

    It looks like reality has slapped him in the face.  Sometimes it is a wakeup call.  We will have to see if he climbs out of his fantasy world although the mud project tends to think he will never climb out of it.

    Looks like this is another Duke Nukem in the making.... 
    GdemamiSlapshot1188
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,271
    CrazKanuk said:
    MaxBacon said:
    Iselin said:
    An MMORPG in 18 months...

    Nah. No one could be that naive. So I reject the overoptimism and reality bubble ideas. Not a single person in this planet who has ever even played an MMO, much less someone attempting to develop one could possibly delude themselves into thinking that this would be doable in 18 months.

    There's only one plausible explanation and that is that it always was a deliberate deception.
    That's the same vibe I got from CoE, that was why I did not back it. It was the too much, too soon and for a small amount of money.

    People should be more accepting of crowd funded projects without demanding release dates from the beginning, allowing for hype trains being driven the same way they are by the big publishers and titles that do rarely give dates before the release is close. 

    People want realistic estimates, but if they do conservative estimates that mean a long time that drives off interest pretty quickly, so if people do not benefit that then the viable strategy is continuously stretch delivery dates to be as soon as possible.
    The problem of securing funding for a long-term project is the developer's, not the consumers.  We shouldn't give them a pass just because they're asking us for money directly to fund the project; that's asking to be blindly taken advantage of.

    Totally agree! The biggest issue with KS MMORPGs is that they are nearly never completely fan-funded. Therefore, we are relying on the developers to secure additional funding to make it happen, unless you start with a literal MVP, but nobody would stick around and pay for something that isn't full of features anyway.  So the idea of funding an MMO via crowdfunding is hilariously flawed to begin with. Whether it be an industry vet or a complete noob, nobody has hit dates particularly well in this genre. Don't fool yourself into thinking that some aren't given a pass, though.

    That being said, there are also some that would have you believe that this is something that is solved with experience and fancy gantt charts. However, there are other projects with very experienced industry vets which are years off the rails as well, so I'd say that there is also a lot of over-simplification that takes place here as well. Either that, or we've got a metric fuck ton of AWESOME project managers here who are spending their time posting about their own greatness when they could be making millions by solving what appears to be an industry epidemic. For the life of me, I simply cannot figure out how someone would accept a gantt with a 12-month allowance for the inability to find talent, on top of the actual schedule for the hiring process, lol. I'm not a PM, though, so I'm sure there is a button in MS Project for that :wink:
    Wonderful bit of discussion.

    Project estimation is one of the most difficult things to do right.  Ultimately, even the most draconian COCOMO model is totally dependent on the skill and expertise of the person(s) evaluating the elements.  Entirely too many businesses, not only the game industry, sees this aspect of project management a complete waste of time.  "Paralysis by analysis" is a phrase commonly used to describe the entire project management process (and any other attempt to "define the problem before coding it").   A good model can't produce 100% accurate results, but it can provide more reasonable guidelines than just pulling a date out of the corporate hat (usually belonging to some marketing or accounting guy).

    But that gets into another thing that bothered me when I was involved in the IT industry -- companies (and managers) that manage by deadlines.  Workloads, especially for creative endeavors, don't always follow repeatable, predictable patterns.


    CrazKanukGdemamiTimEisenOzmodan

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    MaxBacon said:
    @MadFrenchie @CrazKanuk You will see that there is a problem.

    If I go in KS to fund a game I am creating, when it comes to give estimates, say I myself in a conservative matter would expect my project to take 4 years to create. But, if I'm optimistic (then unrealistic) and all goes as planned without any problems, I can stretch that to 2 years.

    Now here's the deal, If I ask you to fund my game and say it's going to take 4 years to create, you'll likely not fund me, if I stretch it to 2 years, you're more likely to fund me.

    See the problem? People say they want the realistic estimate but at the same time they wouldn't support the project if so, what would turn out those projects would struggle to fund themselves if not even failing to do so because of it.

    I do not like or stand by giving passes to those who do that, but it's really annoying if you give a conservative estimate you drive off the interest (without proven interest you'll also struggle at getting investors) and would fail at fund your project, then your only viability is doing the opposite.

    Oh, I don't think that people require a realistic estimate. Estimates are simply used as ammunition when someone sees fit. I've seen many games come and go through KS and there are games I've backed which didn't hit their target date. Torment was the most recent, and it missed by like 3 years, lol, and it's not even an MMORPG. 

    People seem to want to only pay attention to a delivery date when it fits their agenda. Otherwise, you never hear about it. Looking at my KS account, though, I can't find one game that shipped before it's estimated delivery date. Then again, I never backed a game saying "Wow! This is going to ship by X date, so based on that I've gotta back it."

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited August 2017
    MaxBacon said:
    @MadFrenchie @CrazKanuk You will see that there is a problem.

    If I go in KS to fund a game I am creating, when it comes to give estimates, say I myself in a conservative matter would expect my project to take 4 years to create. But, if I'm optimistic (then unrealistic) and all goes as planned without any problems, I can stretch that to 2 years.

    Now here's the deal, If I ask you to fund my game and say it's going to take 4 years to create, you'll likely not fund me, if I stretch it to 2 years, you're more likely to fund me.

    See the problem? People say they want the realistic estimate but at the same time they wouldn't support the project if so, what would turn out those projects would struggle to fund themselves if not even failing to do so because of it.

    I do not like or stand by giving passes to those who do that, but it's really annoying if you give a conservative estimate you drive off the interest (without proven interest you'll also struggle at getting investors) and would fail at fund your project, then your only viability is doing the opposite.
    Again, convincing folks to give you money is the problem of the folks asking for the money. 

    It doesn't excuse using an unrealistic or predatory timeline to attempt to gather funds.  There is no responsibility from the private consumer to fund projects just because folks want funding.  Especially when that funding comes with no direct potential for financial gain, as is the case with many of these crowdfunding endesvors.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
    GdemamiTimEisen

    image
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,054
    edited August 2017
    CrazKanuk said:
    MaxBacon said:
    @MadFrenchie @CrazKanuk You will see that there is a problem.

    If I go in KS to fund a game I am creating, when it comes to give estimates, say I myself in a conservative matter would expect my project to take 4 years to create. But, if I'm optimistic (then unrealistic) and all goes as planned without any problems, I can stretch that to 2 years.

    Now here's the deal, If I ask you to fund my game and say it's going to take 4 years to create, you'll likely not fund me, if I stretch it to 2 years, you're more likely to fund me.

    See the problem? People say they want the realistic estimate but at the same time they wouldn't support the project if so, what would turn out those projects would struggle to fund themselves if not even failing to do so because of it.

    I do not like or stand by giving passes to those who do that, but it's really annoying if you give a conservative estimate you drive off the interest (without proven interest you'll also struggle at getting investors) and would fail at fund your project, then your only viability is doing the opposite.

    Oh, I don't think that people require a realistic estimate. Estimates are simply used as ammunition when someone sees fit. I've seen many games come and go through KS and there are games I've backed which didn't hit their target date. Torment was the most recent, and it missed by like 3 years, lol, and it's not even an MMORPG. 

    People seem to want to only pay attention to a delivery date when it fits their agenda. Otherwise, you never hear about it. Looking at my KS account, though, I can't find one game that shipped before it's estimated delivery date. Then again, I never backed a game saying "Wow! This is going to ship by X date, so based on that I've gotta back it."
    Except when a developer goes out if his way to mock the customers that doubt his ridiculous timeline and uses his gantt charts as part of his response he clearly opens himself up for ridicule when he fails spectacularly.  Even more so when he never even apologizes but just blames his customers and prospective employees for the delay.
    GdemamiKyleranAsm0deus

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,742
    I think the mmorpg.com staff have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this game. I wonder if this changes anything for them after this? 
    PhryMendel



  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,708
    Nanfoodle said:
    I think the mmorpg.com staff have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this game. I wonder if this changes anything for them after this? 
    What is it you expect to change for them...?
    They're not suddenly going to call CoE a scam or anything if that's what you're after xD
    It doesn't serve their purpose to insult devs over a setback. Plenty of players are more than willing to take up that role ;)
    CrazKanukTimEisen

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,054
    Nanfoodle said:
    I think the mmorpg.com staff have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this game. I wonder if this changes anything for them after this? 
    What is it you expect to change for them...?
    They're not suddenly going to call CoE a scam or anything if that's what you're after xD
    It doesn't serve their purpose to insult devs over a setback. Plenty of players are more than willing to take up that role ;)
    I also don't think it's a scam.  I just think it's a case of a guy who has no experience in leading a team of MMORPG developers who overestimated his abilities.   Not too rare, but it's his attitude that kicks it up to another level.
    MendelGdemamiTimEisenAzaron_NightbladeAsm0deus

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,005
    Nanfoodle said:
    I think the mmorpg.com staff have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this game. I wonder if this changes anything for them after this? 
    Part of the problem i think, is that when it comes to Kickstarter games, we hear more and more about how games have been abandoned due to lack of finance or whatever reason, than we do about the completed ones, which often seem as rare as hens teeth.
    I still think that putting money into a kickstarter is a gamble, you might get something out of it, and you might not, i am no longer a gambler myself, not that i ever really was but these days i am even less inclined than ever, so i would rather wait and buy a finished game than to pay into kickstarters, or buy into the 'dubious' early access games. :/
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,742
    Nanfoodle said:
    I think the mmorpg.com staff have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this game. I wonder if this changes anything for them after this? 
    What is it you expect to change for them...?
    They're not suddenly going to call CoE a scam or anything if that's what you're after xD
    It doesn't serve their purpose to insult devs over a setback. Plenty of players are more than willing to take up that role ;)
    Who is insulting here? This is where many of thought we would be with this game. The very reason I didnt back it. Maybe 2-3 years from now when they have proven they know what they are doing and can show progress worth talking about. I may back this game. 



  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    CrazKanuk said:
    MaxBacon said:
    @MadFrenchie @CrazKanuk You will see that there is a problem.

    If I go in KS to fund a game I am creating, when it comes to give estimates, say I myself in a conservative matter would expect my project to take 4 years to create. But, if I'm optimistic (then unrealistic) and all goes as planned without any problems, I can stretch that to 2 years.

    Now here's the deal, If I ask you to fund my game and say it's going to take 4 years to create, you'll likely not fund me, if I stretch it to 2 years, you're more likely to fund me.

    See the problem? People say they want the realistic estimate but at the same time they wouldn't support the project if so, what would turn out those projects would struggle to fund themselves if not even failing to do so because of it.

    I do not like or stand by giving passes to those who do that, but it's really annoying if you give a conservative estimate you drive off the interest (without proven interest you'll also struggle at getting investors) and would fail at fund your project, then your only viability is doing the opposite.

    Oh, I don't think that people require a realistic estimate. Estimates are simply used as ammunition when someone sees fit. I've seen many games come and go through KS and there are games I've backed which didn't hit their target date. Torment was the most recent, and it missed by like 3 years, lol, and it's not even an MMORPG. 

    People seem to want to only pay attention to a delivery date when it fits their agenda. Otherwise, you never hear about it. Looking at my KS account, though, I can't find one game that shipped before it's estimated delivery date. Then again, I never backed a game saying "Wow! This is going to ship by X date, so based on that I've gotta back it."
    Except when a developer goes out if his way to mock the customers that doubt his ridiculous timeline and uses his gantt charts as part of his response he clearly opens himself up for ridicule when he fails spectacularly.  Even more so when he never even apologizes but just blames his customers and prospective employees for the delay.


    Yup! Being an arrogant asshole does open you up for criticism *cough* Murca */cough*, but don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining! The accuracy or inaccuracy of his project planning has little to do with this criticism. Just say it, he's a fucking asshole and you'd never back him because of that. Don't paint him as being unreliable because he's behind schedule when EVERYBODY is behind schedule. Also, not being informed on aforementioned gantt charts, do you know whether the ACTUAL work is trending to plan? Or are you only saying that the gantt chart isn't aligned with the original date? Again, as I mentioned previously, it's entirely possible for a gantt chart to be completely accurate and still have the project be wildly behind schedule. 

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this guy got his projections right, but based on some of the stuff I read in his update, which could be complete bullshit too, there are things in there like the inability to hire the right talent, which may not/could not be accounted for in a project schedule. Also, it should be noted that being an arrogant asshole probably isn't going to do you any favors in finding talented people to work for you either.

    Gantt charts are a great way to use historical data to predict future success, but they really suck as a calendar of events for people to rely upon. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    edited August 2017
    Nanfoodle said:
    I think the mmorpg.com staff have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this game. I wonder if this changes anything for them after this? 


    Says the guy with a Pantheon sig? Fuck me! How many times has BM outright screwed his community? Again, I know it's easier to look down than up at the ivory tower where you've placed some other developers, but I think that as a staff of an impartial website with impartial editorial, it's better to remain impartial. I mean I think it's fantastic that they've remained impartial with Pantheon, too, and didn't focus on the fact that BM was literally caught stealing crowdfunding money, or that he's responsible for one of the most legendary firings in game industry history, and they shouldn't. We COULD if we wanted, but we're not, right? *sniff* 
    TimEisenOzmodan

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,054
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    MaxBacon said:
    @MadFrenchie @CrazKanuk You will see that there is a problem.

    If I go in KS to fund a game I am creating, when it comes to give estimates, say I myself in a conservative matter would expect my project to take 4 years to create. But, if I'm optimistic (then unrealistic) and all goes as planned without any problems, I can stretch that to 2 years.

    Now here's the deal, If I ask you to fund my game and say it's going to take 4 years to create, you'll likely not fund me, if I stretch it to 2 years, you're more likely to fund me.

    See the problem? People say they want the realistic estimate but at the same time they wouldn't support the project if so, what would turn out those projects would struggle to fund themselves if not even failing to do so because of it.

    I do not like or stand by giving passes to those who do that, but it's really annoying if you give a conservative estimate you drive off the interest (without proven interest you'll also struggle at getting investors) and would fail at fund your project, then your only viability is doing the opposite.

    Oh, I don't think that people require a realistic estimate. Estimates are simply used as ammunition when someone sees fit. I've seen many games come and go through KS and there are games I've backed which didn't hit their target date. Torment was the most recent, and it missed by like 3 years, lol, and it's not even an MMORPG. 

    People seem to want to only pay attention to a delivery date when it fits their agenda. Otherwise, you never hear about it. Looking at my KS account, though, I can't find one game that shipped before it's estimated delivery date. Then again, I never backed a game saying "Wow! This is going to ship by X date, so based on that I've gotta back it."
    Except when a developer goes out if his way to mock the customers that doubt his ridiculous timeline and uses his gantt charts as part of his response he clearly opens himself up for ridicule when he fails spectacularly.  Even more so when he never even apologizes but just blames his customers and prospective employees for the delay.


    Yup! Being an arrogant asshole does open you up for criticism *cough* Murca */cough*, but don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining! The accuracy or inaccuracy of his project planning has little to do with this criticism. Just say it, he's a fucking asshole and you'd never back him because of that. Don't paint him as being unreliable because he's behind schedule when EVERYBODY is behind schedule. Also, not being informed on aforementioned gantt charts, do you know whether the ACTUAL work is trending to plan? Or are you only saying that the gantt chart isn't aligned with the original date? Again, as I mentioned previously, it's entirely possible for a gantt chart to be completely accurate and still have the project be wildly behind schedule. 

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this guy got his projections right, but based on some of the stuff I read in his update, which could be complete bullshit too, there are things in there like the inability to hire the right talent, which may not/could not be accounted for in a project schedule. Also, it should be noted that being an arrogant asshole probably isn't going to do you any favors in finding talented people to work for you either.

    Gantt charts are a great way to use historical data to predict future success, but they really suck as a calendar of events for people to rely upon. 
    Gantt charts were introduced to the discussion by Mr Caspian.  I didn't need a chart to know his 18 month launch date was bullshit.
    GdemamiKyleranTimEisen

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    MaxBacon said:
    @MadFrenchie @CrazKanuk You will see that there is a problem.

    If I go in KS to fund a game I am creating, when it comes to give estimates, say I myself in a conservative matter would expect my project to take 4 years to create. But, if I'm optimistic (then unrealistic) and all goes as planned without any problems, I can stretch that to 2 years.

    Now here's the deal, If I ask you to fund my game and say it's going to take 4 years to create, you'll likely not fund me, if I stretch it to 2 years, you're more likely to fund me.

    See the problem? People say they want the realistic estimate but at the same time they wouldn't support the project if so, what would turn out those projects would struggle to fund themselves if not even failing to do so because of it.

    I do not like or stand by giving passes to those who do that, but it's really annoying if you give a conservative estimate you drive off the interest (without proven interest you'll also struggle at getting investors) and would fail at fund your project, then your only viability is doing the opposite.

    Oh, I don't think that people require a realistic estimate. Estimates are simply used as ammunition when someone sees fit. I've seen many games come and go through KS and there are games I've backed which didn't hit their target date. Torment was the most recent, and it missed by like 3 years, lol, and it's not even an MMORPG. 

    People seem to want to only pay attention to a delivery date when it fits their agenda. Otherwise, you never hear about it. Looking at my KS account, though, I can't find one game that shipped before it's estimated delivery date. Then again, I never backed a game saying "Wow! This is going to ship by X date, so based on that I've gotta back it."
    Except when a developer goes out if his way to mock the customers that doubt his ridiculous timeline and uses his gantt charts as part of his response he clearly opens himself up for ridicule when he fails spectacularly.  Even more so when he never even apologizes but just blames his customers and prospective employees for the delay.


    Yup! Being an arrogant asshole does open you up for criticism *cough* Murca */cough*, but don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining! The accuracy or inaccuracy of his project planning has little to do with this criticism. Just say it, he's a fucking asshole and you'd never back him because of that. Don't paint him as being unreliable because he's behind schedule when EVERYBODY is behind schedule. Also, not being informed on aforementioned gantt charts, do you know whether the ACTUAL work is trending to plan? Or are you only saying that the gantt chart isn't aligned with the original date? Again, as I mentioned previously, it's entirely possible for a gantt chart to be completely accurate and still have the project be wildly behind schedule. 

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this guy got his projections right, but based on some of the stuff I read in his update, which could be complete bullshit too, there are things in there like the inability to hire the right talent, which may not/could not be accounted for in a project schedule. Also, it should be noted that being an arrogant asshole probably isn't going to do you any favors in finding talented people to work for you either.

    Gantt charts are a great way to use historical data to predict future success, but they really suck as a calendar of events for people to rely upon. 
    Gantt charts were introduced to the discussion by Mr Caspian.  I didn't need a chart to know his 18 month launch date was bullshit.

    Yeah, but a Gantt chart doesn't mean his estimates are wrong, that's the point I was making. All we know is that there were unknowns not accounted for in the gantt chart which effectively pushed all project timelines back. In fact, I think that the current schedule is still effectively 18 months, is it not? Without going back and reading through it again, didn't he say it was like 2018 or 2019? So If they were just now getting underway, the original gantt chart could actually still be in play........ until the inevitable delays are introduced through actual slippage of items in the timeline. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,054
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    MaxBacon said:
    @MadFrenchie @CrazKanuk You will see that there is a problem.

    If I go in KS to fund a game I am creating, when it comes to give estimates, say I myself in a conservative matter would expect my project to take 4 years to create. But, if I'm optimistic (then unrealistic) and all goes as planned without any problems, I can stretch that to 2 years.

    Now here's the deal, If I ask you to fund my game and say it's going to take 4 years to create, you'll likely not fund me, if I stretch it to 2 years, you're more likely to fund me.

    See the problem? People say they want the realistic estimate but at the same time they wouldn't support the project if so, what would turn out those projects would struggle to fund themselves if not even failing to do so because of it.

    I do not like or stand by giving passes to those who do that, but it's really annoying if you give a conservative estimate you drive off the interest (without proven interest you'll also struggle at getting investors) and would fail at fund your project, then your only viability is doing the opposite.

    Oh, I don't think that people require a realistic estimate. Estimates are simply used as ammunition when someone sees fit. I've seen many games come and go through KS and there are games I've backed which didn't hit their target date. Torment was the most recent, and it missed by like 3 years, lol, and it's not even an MMORPG. 

    People seem to want to only pay attention to a delivery date when it fits their agenda. Otherwise, you never hear about it. Looking at my KS account, though, I can't find one game that shipped before it's estimated delivery date. Then again, I never backed a game saying "Wow! This is going to ship by X date, so based on that I've gotta back it."
    Except when a developer goes out if his way to mock the customers that doubt his ridiculous timeline and uses his gantt charts as part of his response he clearly opens himself up for ridicule when he fails spectacularly.  Even more so when he never even apologizes but just blames his customers and prospective employees for the delay.


    Yup! Being an arrogant asshole does open you up for criticism *cough* Murca */cough*, but don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining! The accuracy or inaccuracy of his project planning has little to do with this criticism. Just say it, he's a fucking asshole and you'd never back him because of that. Don't paint him as being unreliable because he's behind schedule when EVERYBODY is behind schedule. Also, not being informed on aforementioned gantt charts, do you know whether the ACTUAL work is trending to plan? Or are you only saying that the gantt chart isn't aligned with the original date? Again, as I mentioned previously, it's entirely possible for a gantt chart to be completely accurate and still have the project be wildly behind schedule. 

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this guy got his projections right, but based on some of the stuff I read in his update, which could be complete bullshit too, there are things in there like the inability to hire the right talent, which may not/could not be accounted for in a project schedule. Also, it should be noted that being an arrogant asshole probably isn't going to do you any favors in finding talented people to work for you either.

    Gantt charts are a great way to use historical data to predict future success, but they really suck as a calendar of events for people to rely upon. 
    Gantt charts were introduced to the discussion by Mr Caspian.  I didn't need a chart to know his 18 month launch date was bullshit.

    Yeah, but a Gantt chart doesn't mean his estimates are wrong, that's the point I was making. All we know is that there were unknowns not accounted for in the gantt chart which effectively pushed all project timelines back. In fact, I think that the current schedule is still effectively 18 months, is it not? Without going back and reading through it again, didn't he say it was like 2018 or 2019? So If they were just now getting underway, the original gantt chart could actually still be in play........ until the inevitable delays are introduced through actual slippage of items in the timeline. 
    The point I was making is HE shouldn't have used his Gantt charts as some sort of proof that we'd be playing his game next month.
    SpottyGekkoGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited August 2017
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    MaxBacon said:
    @MadFrenchie @CrazKanuk You will see that there is a problem.

    If I go in KS to fund a game I am creating, when it comes to give estimates, say I myself in a conservative matter would expect my project to take 4 years to create. But, if I'm optimistic (then unrealistic) and all goes as planned without any problems, I can stretch that to 2 years.

    Now here's the deal, If I ask you to fund my game and say it's going to take 4 years to create, you'll likely not fund me, if I stretch it to 2 years, you're more likely to fund me.

    See the problem? People say they want the realistic estimate but at the same time they wouldn't support the project if so, what would turn out those projects would struggle to fund themselves if not even failing to do so because of it.

    I do not like or stand by giving passes to those who do that, but it's really annoying if you give a conservative estimate you drive off the interest (without proven interest you'll also struggle at getting investors) and would fail at fund your project, then your only viability is doing the opposite.

    Oh, I don't think that people require a realistic estimate. Estimates are simply used as ammunition when someone sees fit. I've seen many games come and go through KS and there are games I've backed which didn't hit their target date. Torment was the most recent, and it missed by like 3 years, lol, and it's not even an MMORPG. 

    People seem to want to only pay attention to a delivery date when it fits their agenda. Otherwise, you never hear about it. Looking at my KS account, though, I can't find one game that shipped before it's estimated delivery date. Then again, I never backed a game saying "Wow! This is going to ship by X date, so based on that I've gotta back it."
    Except when a developer goes out if his way to mock the customers that doubt his ridiculous timeline and uses his gantt charts as part of his response he clearly opens himself up for ridicule when he fails spectacularly.  Even more so when he never even apologizes but just blames his customers and prospective employees for the delay.


    Yup! Being an arrogant asshole does open you up for criticism *cough* Murca */cough*, but don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining! The accuracy or inaccuracy of his project planning has little to do with this criticism. Just say it, he's a fucking asshole and you'd never back him because of that. Don't paint him as being unreliable because he's behind schedule when EVERYBODY is behind schedule. Also, not being informed on aforementioned gantt charts, do you know whether the ACTUAL work is trending to plan? Or are you only saying that the gantt chart isn't aligned with the original date? Again, as I mentioned previously, it's entirely possible for a gantt chart to be completely accurate and still have the project be wildly behind schedule. 

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this guy got his projections right, but based on some of the stuff I read in his update, which could be complete bullshit too, there are things in there like the inability to hire the right talent, which may not/could not be accounted for in a project schedule. Also, it should be noted that being an arrogant asshole probably isn't going to do you any favors in finding talented people to work for you either.

    Gantt charts are a great way to use historical data to predict future success, but they really suck as a calendar of events for people to rely upon. 
    It doesn't matter whether or not his gantt scheduling accounted for acquiring talent or not; if it did, we're back at square one.  If it didn't, then it only adds to his incompetency for not being able to solicit the talent and not making it clear at all when relaying public timelines that he didn't even have an office of personnel to attempt to complete the game per the timeline.  
    GdemamiSlapshot1188

    image
  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 240
    edited November 2017
    TimEisen said:
    Kyleran said:
    TimEisen said:
    I think we are starting to see a crowd funded truth emerge.  <snip>

    TLDR; From a KS to a ever shifting deadline crowd funded MMOs feel more like gas light machines than game making journeys. The problem lies within the age old battle between a sales pitch and reality lol.

    Then again Ashes just set a funding record by not doing anything like I said so what do I know?
    Ashes is either the first exception to the rule or the best case of smoke and mirrors witnessed to date.

    ;)

    I saw shiny graphics and marketing which is the opposite of what I like to see for any game AAA to crowd funded. If anything this KS experiment has pushed me to always seek out engine information, which is exactly the kind studios seem to avoid talking about.
    Yea, pretty much that. We don't know if the games using a great engine (like Dual Universe and Camelot Unchained) will meet our expectations at launch, but at least we know that the foundation of those games is solid so it's encouraging.

    Post edited by francis_baud on
    TorvalTimEisen
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,708
    Nanfoodle said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    I think the mmorpg.com staff have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this game. I wonder if this changes anything for them after this? 
    What is it you expect to change for them...?
    They're not suddenly going to call CoE a scam or anything if that's what you're after xD
    It doesn't serve their purpose to insult devs over a setback. Plenty of players are more than willing to take up that role ;)
    Who is insulting here? This is where many of thought we would be with this game. The very reason I didnt back it. Maybe 2-3 years from now when they have proven they know what they are doing and can show progress worth talking about. I may back this game. 
    Fair enough! I just wasn't sure what you meant by it. I mean, they're already reporting on the delays and such.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,499
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    MaxBacon said:
    @MadFrenchie @CrazKanuk You will see that there is a problem.

    If I go in KS to fund a game I am creating, when it comes to give estimates, say I myself in a conservative matter would expect my project to take 4 years to create. But, if I'm optimistic (then unrealistic) and all goes as planned without any problems, I can stretch that to 2 years.

    Now here's the deal, If I ask you to fund my game and say it's going to take 4 years to create, you'll likely not fund me, if I stretch it to 2 years, you're more likely to fund me.

    See the problem? People say they want the realistic estimate but at the same time they wouldn't support the project if so, what would turn out those projects would struggle to fund themselves if not even failing to do so because of it.

    I do not like or stand by giving passes to those who do that, but it's really annoying if you give a conservative estimate you drive off the interest (without proven interest you'll also struggle at getting investors) and would fail at fund your project, then your only viability is doing the opposite.

    Oh, I don't think that people require a realistic estimate. Estimates are simply used as ammunition when someone sees fit. I've seen many games come and go through KS and there are games I've backed which didn't hit their target date. Torment was the most recent, and it missed by like 3 years, lol, and it's not even an MMORPG. 

    People seem to want to only pay attention to a delivery date when it fits their agenda. Otherwise, you never hear about it. Looking at my KS account, though, I can't find one game that shipped before it's estimated delivery date. Then again, I never backed a game saying "Wow! This is going to ship by X date, so based on that I've gotta back it."
    Except when a developer goes out if his way to mock the customers that doubt his ridiculous timeline and uses his gantt charts as part of his response he clearly opens himself up for ridicule when he fails spectacularly.  Even more so when he never even apologizes but just blames his customers and prospective employees for the delay.


    Yup! Being an arrogant asshole does open you up for criticism *cough* Murca */cough*, but don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining! The accuracy or inaccuracy of his project planning has little to do with this criticism. Just say it, he's a fucking asshole and you'd never back him because of that. Don't paint him as being unreliable because he's behind schedule when EVERYBODY is behind schedule. Also, not being informed on aforementioned gantt charts, do you know whether the ACTUAL work is trending to plan? Or are you only saying that the gantt chart isn't aligned with the original date? Again, as I mentioned previously, it's entirely possible for a gantt chart to be completely accurate and still have the project be wildly behind schedule. 

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this guy got his projections right, but based on some of the stuff I read in his update, which could be complete bullshit too, there are things in there like the inability to hire the right talent, which may not/could not be accounted for in a project schedule. Also, it should be noted that being an arrogant asshole probably isn't going to do you any favors in finding talented people to work for you either.

    Gantt charts are a great way to use historical data to predict future success, but they really suck as a calendar of events for people to rely upon. 
    Gantt charts were introduced to the discussion by Mr Caspian.  I didn't need a chart to know his 18 month launch date was bullshit.

    Yeah, but a Gantt chart doesn't mean his estimates are wrong, that's the point I was making. All we know is that there were unknowns not accounted for in the gantt chart which effectively pushed all project timelines back. In fact, I think that the current schedule is still effectively 18 months, is it not? Without going back and reading through it again, didn't he say it was like 2018 or 2019? So If they were just now getting underway, the original gantt chart could actually still be in play........ until the inevitable delays are introduced through actual slippage of items in the timeline. 
    Even a expert project manager could not do a gantt chart for this game because of all the feature creep.  That is what is delaying this game and will probably kill it.  The original KS featured a fairly simple game and then stupid kept adding feature after feature.  Anyone who ever worked in IT knows that is the death knell of any project.

    Maybe the light bulb will go on and he will return to the original project, but like I said before when he announced the MUD, he pretty much indicated that was not going to happen.  The chances of this game seeing the light of day is miniscule.
    GdemamiCrazKanuk
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    MaxBacon said:
    @MadFrenchie @CrazKanuk You will see that there is a problem.

    If I go in KS to fund a game I am creating, when it comes to give estimates, say I myself in a conservative matter would expect my project to take 4 years to create. But, if I'm optimistic (then unrealistic) and all goes as planned without any problems, I can stretch that to 2 years.

    Now here's the deal, If I ask you to fund my game and say it's going to take 4 years to create, you'll likely not fund me, if I stretch it to 2 years, you're more likely to fund me.

    See the problem? People say they want the realistic estimate but at the same time they wouldn't support the project if so, what would turn out those projects would struggle to fund themselves if not even failing to do so because of it.

    I do not like or stand by giving passes to those who do that, but it's really annoying if you give a conservative estimate you drive off the interest (without proven interest you'll also struggle at getting investors) and would fail at fund your project, then your only viability is doing the opposite.

    Oh, I don't think that people require a realistic estimate. Estimates are simply used as ammunition when someone sees fit. I've seen many games come and go through KS and there are games I've backed which didn't hit their target date. Torment was the most recent, and it missed by like 3 years, lol, and it's not even an MMORPG. 

    People seem to want to only pay attention to a delivery date when it fits their agenda. Otherwise, you never hear about it. Looking at my KS account, though, I can't find one game that shipped before it's estimated delivery date. Then again, I never backed a game saying "Wow! This is going to ship by X date, so based on that I've gotta back it."
    Except when a developer goes out if his way to mock the customers that doubt his ridiculous timeline and uses his gantt charts as part of his response he clearly opens himself up for ridicule when he fails spectacularly.  Even more so when he never even apologizes but just blames his customers and prospective employees for the delay.


    Yup! Being an arrogant asshole does open you up for criticism *cough* Murca */cough*, but don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining! The accuracy or inaccuracy of his project planning has little to do with this criticism. Just say it, he's a fucking asshole and you'd never back him because of that. Don't paint him as being unreliable because he's behind schedule when EVERYBODY is behind schedule. Also, not being informed on aforementioned gantt charts, do you know whether the ACTUAL work is trending to plan? Or are you only saying that the gantt chart isn't aligned with the original date? Again, as I mentioned previously, it's entirely possible for a gantt chart to be completely accurate and still have the project be wildly behind schedule. 

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this guy got his projections right, but based on some of the stuff I read in his update, which could be complete bullshit too, there are things in there like the inability to hire the right talent, which may not/could not be accounted for in a project schedule. Also, it should be noted that being an arrogant asshole probably isn't going to do you any favors in finding talented people to work for you either.

    Gantt charts are a great way to use historical data to predict future success, but they really suck as a calendar of events for people to rely upon. 
    Gantt charts were introduced to the discussion by Mr Caspian.  I didn't need a chart to know his 18 month launch date was bullshit.

    Yeah, but a Gantt chart doesn't mean his estimates are wrong, that's the point I was making. All we know is that there were unknowns not accounted for in the gantt chart which effectively pushed all project timelines back. In fact, I think that the current schedule is still effectively 18 months, is it not? Without going back and reading through it again, didn't he say it was like 2018 or 2019? So If they were just now getting underway, the original gantt chart could actually still be in play........ until the inevitable delays are introduced through actual slippage of items in the timeline. 
    The point I was making is HE shouldn't have used his Gantt charts as some sort of proof that we'd be playing his game next month.

    Honestly, if I could, I'd hire you just to sit in my project retrospectives. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,767
    Nanfoodle said:
    I think the mmorpg.com staff have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this game. I wonder if this changes anything for them after this? 
    I don't think they have the wool pulled over their eyes. I think there is just so little to write about anymore, it kinda forces their hand.
  • MikaelJordanMikaelJordan Member CommonPosts: 20
    That's sad, tho... I heard about this game 5 months ago when looking for new games. Quite impressive and interesting is my first thought. As advertised, this game is so real: your character will become old and die following the cycle of time; become fat if you the player, eat too much; you have to work out for your character to become fit, etc. COE is definitely suitable for gamers (like me) who are quite lazy, just sitting at one place. So I'm looking forward to it then today find out about this...
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,713
    Nanfoodle said:
    I think the mmorpg.com staff have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this game. I wonder if this changes anything for them after this? 
    I don't think they have the wool pulled over their eyes. I think there is just so little to write about anymore, it kinda forces their hand.
    I think what he meant is Tim's change of stance from optimistic to concerned.
    I too wonder if this will change a bit of his view in future columns.

    Well we have at least until 2019 now to find out.
    Harbinger of Fools
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