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Chronicles of Elyria - A Delayed Concern - MMORPG.com

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  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479
    edited November 2017
    TimEisen said:
    Kyleran said:
    TimEisen said:
    I think we are starting to see a crowd funded truth emerge.  <snip>

    TLDR; From a KS to a ever shifting deadline crowd funded MMOs feel more like gas light machines than game making journeys. The problem lies within the age old battle between a sales pitch and reality lol.

    Then again Ashes just set a funding record by not doing anything like I said so what do I know?
    Ashes is either the first exception to the rule or the best case of smoke and mirrors witnessed to date.

    ;)

    I saw shiny graphics and marketing which is the opposite of what I like to see for any game AAA to crowd funded. If anything this KS experiment has pushed me to always seek out engine information, which is exactly the kind studios seem to avoid talking about.
    Yea, pretty much that. We don't know if the games using a great engine (like Dual Universe and Camelot Unchained) will meet our expectations at launch, but at least we know that the foundation of those games is solid so it's encouraging.

    Post edited by francis_baud on
    [Deleted User][Deleted User]
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Nanfoodle said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    I think the mmorpg.com staff have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this game. I wonder if this changes anything for them after this? 
    What is it you expect to change for them...?
    They're not suddenly going to call CoE a scam or anything if that's what you're after xD
    It doesn't serve their purpose to insult devs over a setback. Plenty of players are more than willing to take up that role ;)
    Who is insulting here? This is where many of thought we would be with this game. The very reason I didnt back it. Maybe 2-3 years from now when they have proven they know what they are doing and can show progress worth talking about. I may back this game. 
    Fair enough! I just wasn't sure what you meant by it. I mean, they're already reporting on the delays and such.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    MaxBacon said:
    @MadFrenchie @CrazKanuk You will see that there is a problem.

    If I go in KS to fund a game I am creating, when it comes to give estimates, say I myself in a conservative matter would expect my project to take 4 years to create. But, if I'm optimistic (then unrealistic) and all goes as planned without any problems, I can stretch that to 2 years.

    Now here's the deal, If I ask you to fund my game and say it's going to take 4 years to create, you'll likely not fund me, if I stretch it to 2 years, you're more likely to fund me.

    See the problem? People say they want the realistic estimate but at the same time they wouldn't support the project if so, what would turn out those projects would struggle to fund themselves if not even failing to do so because of it.

    I do not like or stand by giving passes to those who do that, but it's really annoying if you give a conservative estimate you drive off the interest (without proven interest you'll also struggle at getting investors) and would fail at fund your project, then your only viability is doing the opposite.

    Oh, I don't think that people require a realistic estimate. Estimates are simply used as ammunition when someone sees fit. I've seen many games come and go through KS and there are games I've backed which didn't hit their target date. Torment was the most recent, and it missed by like 3 years, lol, and it's not even an MMORPG. 

    People seem to want to only pay attention to a delivery date when it fits their agenda. Otherwise, you never hear about it. Looking at my KS account, though, I can't find one game that shipped before it's estimated delivery date. Then again, I never backed a game saying "Wow! This is going to ship by X date, so based on that I've gotta back it."
    Except when a developer goes out if his way to mock the customers that doubt his ridiculous timeline and uses his gantt charts as part of his response he clearly opens himself up for ridicule when he fails spectacularly.  Even more so when he never even apologizes but just blames his customers and prospective employees for the delay.


    Yup! Being an arrogant asshole does open you up for criticism *cough* Murca */cough*, but don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining! The accuracy or inaccuracy of his project planning has little to do with this criticism. Just say it, he's a fucking asshole and you'd never back him because of that. Don't paint him as being unreliable because he's behind schedule when EVERYBODY is behind schedule. Also, not being informed on aforementioned gantt charts, do you know whether the ACTUAL work is trending to plan? Or are you only saying that the gantt chart isn't aligned with the original date? Again, as I mentioned previously, it's entirely possible for a gantt chart to be completely accurate and still have the project be wildly behind schedule. 

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this guy got his projections right, but based on some of the stuff I read in his update, which could be complete bullshit too, there are things in there like the inability to hire the right talent, which may not/could not be accounted for in a project schedule. Also, it should be noted that being an arrogant asshole probably isn't going to do you any favors in finding talented people to work for you either.

    Gantt charts are a great way to use historical data to predict future success, but they really suck as a calendar of events for people to rely upon. 
    Gantt charts were introduced to the discussion by Mr Caspian.  I didn't need a chart to know his 18 month launch date was bullshit.

    Yeah, but a Gantt chart doesn't mean his estimates are wrong, that's the point I was making. All we know is that there were unknowns not accounted for in the gantt chart which effectively pushed all project timelines back. In fact, I think that the current schedule is still effectively 18 months, is it not? Without going back and reading through it again, didn't he say it was like 2018 or 2019? So If they were just now getting underway, the original gantt chart could actually still be in play........ until the inevitable delays are introduced through actual slippage of items in the timeline. 
    Even a expert project manager could not do a gantt chart for this game because of all the feature creep.  That is what is delaying this game and will probably kill it.  The original KS featured a fairly simple game and then stupid kept adding feature after feature.  Anyone who ever worked in IT knows that is the death knell of any project.

    Maybe the light bulb will go on and he will return to the original project, but like I said before when he announced the MUD, he pretty much indicated that was not going to happen.  The chances of this game seeing the light of day is miniscule.
    GdemamiCrazKanuk
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    MaxBacon said:
    @MadFrenchie @CrazKanuk You will see that there is a problem.

    If I go in KS to fund a game I am creating, when it comes to give estimates, say I myself in a conservative matter would expect my project to take 4 years to create. But, if I'm optimistic (then unrealistic) and all goes as planned without any problems, I can stretch that to 2 years.

    Now here's the deal, If I ask you to fund my game and say it's going to take 4 years to create, you'll likely not fund me, if I stretch it to 2 years, you're more likely to fund me.

    See the problem? People say they want the realistic estimate but at the same time they wouldn't support the project if so, what would turn out those projects would struggle to fund themselves if not even failing to do so because of it.

    I do not like or stand by giving passes to those who do that, but it's really annoying if you give a conservative estimate you drive off the interest (without proven interest you'll also struggle at getting investors) and would fail at fund your project, then your only viability is doing the opposite.

    Oh, I don't think that people require a realistic estimate. Estimates are simply used as ammunition when someone sees fit. I've seen many games come and go through KS and there are games I've backed which didn't hit their target date. Torment was the most recent, and it missed by like 3 years, lol, and it's not even an MMORPG. 

    People seem to want to only pay attention to a delivery date when it fits their agenda. Otherwise, you never hear about it. Looking at my KS account, though, I can't find one game that shipped before it's estimated delivery date. Then again, I never backed a game saying "Wow! This is going to ship by X date, so based on that I've gotta back it."
    Except when a developer goes out if his way to mock the customers that doubt his ridiculous timeline and uses his gantt charts as part of his response he clearly opens himself up for ridicule when he fails spectacularly.  Even more so when he never even apologizes but just blames his customers and prospective employees for the delay.


    Yup! Being an arrogant asshole does open you up for criticism *cough* Murca */cough*, but don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining! The accuracy or inaccuracy of his project planning has little to do with this criticism. Just say it, he's a fucking asshole and you'd never back him because of that. Don't paint him as being unreliable because he's behind schedule when EVERYBODY is behind schedule. Also, not being informed on aforementioned gantt charts, do you know whether the ACTUAL work is trending to plan? Or are you only saying that the gantt chart isn't aligned with the original date? Again, as I mentioned previously, it's entirely possible for a gantt chart to be completely accurate and still have the project be wildly behind schedule. 

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this guy got his projections right, but based on some of the stuff I read in his update, which could be complete bullshit too, there are things in there like the inability to hire the right talent, which may not/could not be accounted for in a project schedule. Also, it should be noted that being an arrogant asshole probably isn't going to do you any favors in finding talented people to work for you either.

    Gantt charts are a great way to use historical data to predict future success, but they really suck as a calendar of events for people to rely upon. 
    Gantt charts were introduced to the discussion by Mr Caspian.  I didn't need a chart to know his 18 month launch date was bullshit.

    Yeah, but a Gantt chart doesn't mean his estimates are wrong, that's the point I was making. All we know is that there were unknowns not accounted for in the gantt chart which effectively pushed all project timelines back. In fact, I think that the current schedule is still effectively 18 months, is it not? Without going back and reading through it again, didn't he say it was like 2018 or 2019? So If they were just now getting underway, the original gantt chart could actually still be in play........ until the inevitable delays are introduced through actual slippage of items in the timeline. 
    The point I was making is HE shouldn't have used his Gantt charts as some sort of proof that we'd be playing his game next month.

    Honestly, if I could, I'd hire you just to sit in my project retrospectives. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855
    Nanfoodle said:
    I think the mmorpg.com staff have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this game. I wonder if this changes anything for them after this? 
    I don't think they have the wool pulled over their eyes. I think there is just so little to write about anymore, it kinda forces their hand.
  • MikaelJordanMikaelJordan Member CommonPosts: 20
    That's sad, tho... I heard about this game 5 months ago when looking for new games. Quite impressive and interesting is my first thought. As advertised, this game is so real: your character will become old and die following the cycle of time; become fat if you the player, eat too much; you have to work out for your character to become fit, etc. COE is definitely suitable for gamers (like me) who are quite lazy, just sitting at one place. So I'm looking forward to it then today find out about this...
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,802
    Nanfoodle said:
    I think the mmorpg.com staff have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this game. I wonder if this changes anything for them after this? 
    I don't think they have the wool pulled over their eyes. I think there is just so little to write about anymore, it kinda forces their hand.
    I think what he meant is Tim's change of stance from optimistic to concerned.
    I too wonder if this will change a bit of his view in future columns.

    Well we have at least until 2019 now to find out.
    Harbinger of Fools
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    edited August 2017
    Dakeru said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    I think the mmorpg.com staff have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this game. I wonder if this changes anything for them after this? 
    I don't think they have the wool pulled over their eyes. I think there is just so little to write about anymore, it kinda forces their hand.
    I think what he meant is Tim's change of stance from optimistic to concerned.
    I too wonder if this will change a bit of his view in future columns.

    Well we have at least until 2019 now to find out.
    Tim's attitude on most crowd funded indie MMORPGs has shifted from optimistic to skeptical in his recent articles and posts, largely with regards on their ability to deliver what has been promised.

    As John McClane would say, "welcome to the party Pal."

    https://goo.gl/images/Hp5biF
    Post edited by Kyleran on
    Azaron_Nightblade

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785
    People should be skeptical of kickstarter MMOs. Most of them make no sense:

    Common knowledge: MMO's (and large scale video games in general) are expensive to produce
    Kickstarter MMO: Let's ask for $500k!

    Common knowledge: MMO's take years to build
    Kickstarter MMO: It'll be out in a year!

    Common knowledge: MMO's take a team of skilled developers, artists, and support staff.
    Kickstarter MMO: It's us 5 guys and this one woman we use in all the promo vids, we bought some assets for our trailer!

    Common knowledge: MMO features are often complex and some features will take too much time/resources to implement which is why they often get cut.
    Kickstarter MMO: Our feature list has EVERYTHING YOU EVER WANTED!




    SpottyGekkoKyleranNilden[Deleted User]
  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher Member UncommonPosts: 265
    I think the majority of people that backed this game were not basing their decision on whether it would launch in 18 months or 36 months. I don't deny that people might be put off from buying if they are told they have to wait 3+ years but it seems to me that angst about this 'delay' are coming from those that didn't back in the first place.

    Complaining that companies over promise is pointless. Not a single game that has ever been released advertised as middling, not-quite-as-good-as-it-could've-been. It is absurd to suggest they do so.

    Besides if you aim for 3 years you will most certainly take longer. Aiming for 18 months, while overly optimistic at least means you give yourself a chance to make it under 3 years.
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Rusque said:
    People should be skeptical of kickstarter MMOs. Most of them make no sense:

    Common knowledge: MMO's (and large scale video games in general) are expensive to produce
    Kickstarter MMO: Let's ask for $500k!

    Common knowledge: MMO's take years to build
    Kickstarter MMO: It'll be out in a year!

    Common knowledge: MMO's take a team of skilled developers, artists, and support staff.
    Kickstarter MMO: It's us 5 guys and this one woman we use in all the promo vids, we bought some assets for our trailer!

    Common knowledge: MMO features are often complex and some features will take too much time/resources to implement which is why they often get cut.
    Kickstarter MMO: Our feature list has EVERYTHING YOU EVER WANTED!




    People keep on supporting unrealistic indie projects because they WANT to believe that the impossible is possible.

    As long as someone promises to deliver, they get money thrown at them.

    But as time goes by, the game that was promised slowly morphs into something that would never have been crowdfunded in the first place. Reality bites...
    RusqueKyleranNilden
  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785
    I think the majority of people that backed this game were not basing their decision on whether it would launch in 18 months or 36 months. I don't deny that people might be put off from buying if they are told they have to wait 3+ years but it seems to me that angst about this 'delay' are coming from those that didn't back in the first place.

    Complaining that companies over promise is pointless. Not a single game that has ever been released advertised as middling, not-quite-as-good-as-it-could've-been. It is absurd to suggest they do so.

    Besides if you aim for 3 years you will most certainly take longer. Aiming for 18 months, while overly optimistic at least means you give yourself a chance to make it under 3 years.
    It's not the one thing here or there that's the problem. It's the combination of factors which should point people to the reality that the people pitching the game are either clueless about running a business/game studio or they're liars.

    Their original proposed date was laughable. Their ask was laughable (and the amount they ended raising, is STILL laughable), it's flat out not enough money. Their team is amateur. And their feature list is insane with really complex ideas. 

    Promoting and puffing up your product is one thing. It's when an RPG brags about a bajillion hours of content (which includes walking time and reading every piece of dialogue) but the main story is 5 hours. I get that. But you really don't see many successful companies offering up everything and the kitchen sink even with massive budgets and a 5 year run time.

    If you like something and want to give them your money in hopes that they make it, I dgaf, do it. But at least don't lie to yourself and others that reality doesn't matter because you trust in the "heart of the cards".
    craftseekerShaighGdemamiKyleranSlapshot1188
  • JemkatkJemkatk Member CommonPosts: 1
    I was definitely going to donate, but I decided to look up the release date before I handed over my cash... Plenty have said it was too good to be true and what do you know, it is. So disappointing
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