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Camelot Unchained - 500 Player Battles - Possible?

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  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,997
    As always, thanks for the direct feedback Mark.
    JamesGoblin

    You stay sassy!

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State EntertainmentMember RarePosts: 648
    Tamanous said:
    As always, thanks for the direct feedback Mark.
    And, as always, you're welcome! :)
    JamesGoblin[Deleted User]ExcessionlaseritCecropiaKyleran

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,997
    Tamanous said:
    As always, thanks for the direct feedback Mark.
    And, as always, you're welcome! :)
    lol, that is entirely why I said "as always". I stole it from you. :)
    JamesGoblincameltosis

    You stay sassy!

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State EntertainmentMember RarePosts: 648
    Tamanous said:
    Tamanous said:
    As always, thanks for the direct feedback Mark.
    And, as always, you're welcome! :)
    lol, that is entirely why I said "as always". I stole it from you. :)
    Nice! Was wondering about that. :)

    There's something inherently awesome about the guy running the company regularly answering questions himself on a gaming forum.  I really, really want this game to succeed.
    Thanks, I really want this game to succeed as well. As a matter of fact, I have lots of reasons, millions of them. And thanks for the kind words, I do appreciate them.

    I've almost always posted on forums whether back in the old times on BBSes or then on GEnie and other networks. The only times I really stopped posting entirely was for a while at EA, when I just need a break or if people are just being really rude/nasty/threatening. Most of the time, and on most places, I really enjoy posting, even when it comes to talking to folks who might be a tad cross with me. As long as it stays polite, even with criticism, I try to stick around. During our KS I posted here and a number of folks said that I'd be gone once the KS ended and never return, that I was only doing it to get more Backers. Well, I'm still here and not begging for bucks so I must actually enjoy this. In truth, I wish I had more time to post about other things but not happening, unfortunately. 

    [Deleted User]JamesGoblinlaseritKyleranMadFrenchie

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • GavyneGavyne Member UncommonPosts: 116
    I have to admit, after logging in over 4th of July I see the game has improved by quite a bit.  Really impressed with the looks of new armors & weapons, animations are better, and general graphics look good with new shadow effects.  I know I can't say much so I'll just say, I want to play this game.  I wish we could see the end of the tunnel and get the game done, because I want to play it.  But it's just not quite there yet.

    Hopefully the hard parts are done or close to being done.


    JamesGoblin

    Played: EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-LOTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO-BDO
    Waiting For: CU & Vanilla WoW

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State EntertainmentMember RarePosts: 648
    Gavyne said:
    I have to admit, after logging in over 4th of July I see the game has improved by quite a bit.  Really impressed with the looks of new armors & weapons, animations are better, and general graphics look good with new shadow effects.  I know I can't say much so I'll just say, I want to play this game.  I wish we could see the end of the tunnel and get the game done, because I want to play it.  But it's just not quite there yet.

    Hopefully the hard parts are done or close to being done.


    Thanks and you are correct. We are not there yet but if you look at how far we've come in terms of the graphical improvements, we are definitely a lot closer to the end of the tunnel than to its beginning. 

    In terms of gameplay, the ability system is starting to work the way we expected it would when we went into re-abilitation. Yeah, it has taken longer than we thought it would but fortunately we (Backers/CSE) can look at the game and see significant improvement every month. That pace will begin to get more visible as we continue to transition to more gameplay features rather than tech features over the next few months.

    I know how hard it is to keep faith when we are late but the thing is, when I said we were building the core building blocks of our engine, I meant it. Now that they are coming online, the biggest challenges, tech-wise, are being checked off our list. That will make a heck of a difference over the rest of the development schedule. And unlike other MMOs, we will have the tech in place to support the battles that were part of our KS pitch. We could have gone the other route and it would have worked great in the short-term and screwed us big-time at the end. Fortunately, we went down the right path and as you saw, that approach is in the process of being validated.

    Thanks again, especially for checking out the game again on the 4th. I can't wait till we can have a test with players, Bots and lots and lots of arrows/fireworks of all types. That should be amusing as heck.

    JamesGoblinMadFrenchiePhry

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,997
    After some tech hurdles with the new systems it seems they are back on track with heavy testing. Recent tests using full textures and VFX on more recent builds had successful 1500+ bots (emulating externally logged in player accounts) in close quarter full combat testing high rate casting fire spells. They even had over 2k bots at once point.

    All of this at playable frame rates on a GTX 970.

    Still lots of work yet to be done to meet their beta goals but looking good and progressing!
    francis_baudJamesGoblin

    You stay sassy!

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,067
    edited July 2017
    Actually, you are wrong about the network testing capabilities and barebone graphics, though you are right that we aren't there yet. Our network testing stressed the network traffic the way that 1.5K players/Bots who were running around, colliding with each other (handled by the server, not client) would have stressed the game when it goes LIVE. FYI, the Bots stressed the system more than 1.5K players who were just running around but not fighting. OTOH, as per above, we need those Bots firing off abilities to really stress the system of course. And in terms of the barebone graphics, they were running on the Autumn Biome forest which was being rendered behind them. We don't cheat on tests. :)

    Mark
    Am I?

    Were the bots run from 1500 individual workstations outside of local network?

    Yes, graphics is barebone, unless last game you have seen is 15 years ago :-p

    Regardless, I still think all the graphics isn't in place yet and will take quite a lot of effort actually to balance performance/visual wise. I even think it is more difficult than all the back-end stuff.

    It is nice change to see a game being developed "properly".
    holdenfive
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,997
    Gdemami said:
    Actually, you are wrong about the network testing capabilities and barebone graphics, though you are right that we aren't there yet. Our network testing stressed the network traffic the way that 1.5K players/Bots who were running around, colliding with each other (handled by the server, not client) would have stressed the game when it goes LIVE. FYI, the Bots stressed the system more than 1.5K players who were just running around but not fighting. OTOH, as per above, we need those Bots firing off abilities to really stress the system of course. And in terms of the barebone graphics, they were running on the Autumn Biome forest which was being rendered behind them. We don't cheat on tests. :)

    Mark


    Were the bots run from 1500 individual workstations outside of local network?


    That has already been answered ... more than once. 


    Gdemami

    You stay sassy!

  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 242
    Gdemami said:
    Were the bots run from 1500 individual workstations outside of local network? ...

    Quoting Mark on MOP:

    1) Bots are “headless clients” running on separate AWS instances. This means that on different instances (servers), we are running 1500 separate clients. They are headless, because in our case, they aren’t attached to real players at keyboards, monitors, etc.

    2) Bots are almost indistinguishable to the server from players. They are started up from player characters we created just for that purpose. As such, they have full access to all the skills, abilities, etc. as players.

    3) Because Bots = players, the server treats them the same way as players (except they don’t get to ask for refunds!) :) and as such, consume the same amount of network traffic as players. So when a Bot is firing off an ability, it has to send the same message to the servers that players do and in return, are sent the same amount of information from the server.

    4) Bots, in general, consume a bit more network traffic than players since they don’t spend any time talked, go off for “botty-breaks”, etc., like normal players do. In some tests we actually had them chatting so they could test the chat system.

    5) Bots are not “NPCs” because those things are usually controlled from the same server(s) instance(s) and are generally not networked like players. We will, of course, have NPCs too but no NPCs were harmed in the making of these screenshots! :)

    So, in terms of whether are Bots are the same as players in terms of Internet/network traffic and also client stability (they can crash too), etc., the answer is 100% yes! [...]




    PhryKyleranJamesGoblin
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,067
    edited July 2017

    So, in terms of whether are Bots are the same as players in terms of Internet/network traffic and also client stability (they can crash too), etc., the answer is 100% yes! [...]

    And that was my point - it is not.

    Bots are great testing tool and they can test servers very well but when it comes to network, it is very raw testing.

    Sitting on local network means you test with best possible network conditions you can get and do not need to deal with things like latency when your client is thousands of kilometers away - thus limited network testing capabilities.

     I am not trying to say it is a game changing difference or just be negative for the sake of being negative, just pointing out the journey from technology tests to polished game with real clients is very, very long. Imo, much longer than people realize.
    francis_baudJamesGoblinTamanous
  • nursonurso Member UncommonPosts: 50
    Gdemami said:
    Bots are great testing tool and they can test servers very well but when it comes to network, it is very raw testing.

    Bots are a piece of software, hence the devs can make them as 'demanding' as they want and need, i.e. the bots can be programmed with an artificial delay (for testing ping) or more bandwidth-consuming than the average user client (which they currently are!).
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    Gdemami said:

    So, in terms of whether are Bots are the same as players in terms of Internet/network traffic and also client stability (they can crash too), etc., the answer is 100% yes! [...]

    And that was my point - it is not.

    Bots are great testing tool and they can test servers very well but when it comes to network, it is very raw testing.

    Sitting on local network means you test with best possible network conditions you can get and do not need to deal with things like latency when your client is thousands of kilometers away - thus limited network testing capabilities.

     I am not trying to say it is a game changing difference or just be negative for the sake of being negative, just pointing out the journey from technology tests to polished game with real clients is very, very long. Imo, much longer than people realize.
    That's not how spinning up AWS VMs works. You can spin up a VM from any region in the world so you can replicate distribution in your network. We do something like this at work on a much smaller scale to test our web services and prototype demonstrations.

    An AWS VM is always outside your network, even when you create a VM cluster, because the VMs themselves are only region specific. You can tie them together with a virtual network but that's not the same thing as creating an "on local hardware" network.

    There are some real world stress conditions you can't test with a headless client. If it's truly headless in the sense that the graphical client isn't running then that system load and performance isn't being widely tested.
    nursoGdemamifrancis_baudJamesGoblin
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,011
    What all of this really tells me is they are quite a ways away from beta, much less full launch.

    Beta perhaps 1st half 2018, full launch early 2019 is my guesstimate.



    JamesGoblin

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Preacher26Preacher26 Member UncommonPosts: 381
    Even though I'm not one to financially back these projects I really hope Mark and the team pull through. So many people looking for a new home... if one passionate team can keep their focus on the game and the players.. just one. Make the game great and you will make all the money you need. Focus on making money and we all know where that leads.
    JamesGoblinGdemami
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,997
    Gdemami said:

    So, in terms of whether are Bots are the same as players in terms of Internet/network traffic and also client stability (they can crash too), etc., the answer is 100% yes! [...]

    And that was my point - it is not.

    Bots are great testing tool and they can test servers very well but when it comes to network, it is very raw testing.

    Sitting on local network means you test with best possible network conditions you can get and do not need to deal with things like latency when your client is thousands of kilometers away - thus limited network testing capabilities.

     I am not trying to say it is a game changing difference or just be negative for the sake of being negative, just pointing out the journey from technology tests to polished game with real clients is very, very long. Imo, much longer than people realize.
    Because you continue to post without doing a shred of research yourself (and 2 people rated your post as insightful lol), this is a snip from Mark posting about what bots are and how they are used here:

    http://massivelyop.com/2017/07/29/camelot-unchaineds-big-bot-battle-boasts-benefits-for-beta-beseeching-backers/#comments

    "1) Bots are “headless clients” running on separate AWS instances. This means that on different instances (servers), we are running 1500 separate clients. They are headless, because in our case, they aren’t attached to real players at keyboards, monitors, etc.

    2) Bots are almost indistinguishable to the server from players. They are started up from player characters we created just for that purpose. As such, they have full access to all the skills, abilities, etc. as players.

    3) Because Bots = players, the server treats them the same way as players (except they don’t get to ask for refunds!) :) and as such, consume the same amount of network traffic as players. So when a Bot is firing off an ability, it has to send the same message to the servers that players do and in return, are sent the same amount of information from the server.

    4) Bots, in general, consume a bit more network traffic than players since they don’t spend any time talked, go off for “botty-breaks”, etc., like normal players do. In some tests we actually had them chatting so they could test the chat system.

    5) Bots are not “NPCs” because those things are usually controlled from the same server(s) instance(s) and are generally not networked like players. We will, of course, have NPCs too but no NPCs were harmed in the making of these screenshots! :)

    So, in terms of whether are Bots are the same as players in terms of Internet/network traffic and also client stability (they can crash too), etc., the answer is 100% yes! Otherwise, if they weren’t, we’d be, to put it mildly, lying and even though you and I disagree about some things, I hope by now you and our Backers know that I refuse to lie, I just rather deliver bad news. FYI, I wanted to have these kind of Bots for testing in WAR. Unfortunately, that was vetoed. Fortunately, this time my partner/co-founder Andrew couldn’t have been more in favor of it and was a strong proponent himself. And thanks to the other engineers at CSE and the considerable time spent getting them up and running, they are really incredibly useful for these types of tests, then, now and forever.

    FYI, interesting historical note, the concept of using Bots for this kind of testing goes way, way back, even to the origin of the MUDs. One of the earliest members of Mythic Entertainment, and a fine gentleman who worked for me at AUSI (my first company, maker of the world’s third MUD, Aradath), Darrin Hyrup, had a similar system to stress test our MUDs. Very helpful then, incredibly helpful now. For example, In Beta, we’ll be using them every few weeks to beat on the current build to make sure that nothing bad has crept into the code networking-wise. No matter how good the programmers/designers/artists, occasionally things go into the game that looks fine but when systems are pressured, bad things can arise. The Bots aren’t a cure-all, but used properly they can cut down on the number of times things seem to work great when 40 people are playing during testing but go to complete crap when 4000 people are playing the same build when it goes LIVE."


    I do not believe this will help you however. No matter what others say, you do not believe them even when they directly answer your questions. You continue to argue without knowing the fundamentals of the subject matter.

    Gdemamimeddyck

    You stay sassy!

  • CopperfieldCopperfield Member RarePosts: 654
    severval developers working on this engine for CU have 500 years experience with coding..

    Yet on mmorpg.com some people claim here to know better.

    also i dont think any player who is intrested is this game mind the long development fases..

    they aleady have a large player base waiting for this game, the DOAC fans.


  • meddyckmeddyck Member UncommonPosts: 1,281
    severval developers working on this engine for CU have 500 years experience with coding..

    Yet on mmorpg.com some people claim here to know better.

    also i dont think any player who is intrested is this game mind the long development fases..

    they aleady have a large player base waiting for this game, the DOAC fans.


    Um no. Lots of players who have backed the game are unhappy with the length of development even though they may understand the reasons for it.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,011
    edited August 2017
    meddyck said:
    severval developers working on this engine for CU have 500 years experience with coding..

    Yet on mmorpg.com some people claim here to know better.

    also i dont think any player who is intrested is this game mind the long development fases..

    they aleady have a large player base waiting for this game, the DOAC fans.


    Um no. Lots of players who have backed the game are unhappy with the length of development even though they may understand the reasons for it.
    I understand why there are delays but it is starting to look like some portion of their player base may start dying off before this game launches.  ;)
    meddyckJamesGoblin

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785
    This type of claim pops up every now and then. I'll believe it when it's live and with actual players.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,067
    Rusque said:
    This type of claim pops up every now and then. I'll believe it when it's live and with actual players.
    You can watch the videos yourself, whether they are bots or actual players isn't all that significant difference. 

    It is very much believable, technically it was always possible, it is only a matter of what you will trade off for large scale pvp and whether there is a demand for such games - that is also a reason no such MMOs are being made.
    meddyckfrancis_baud
  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785
    Gdemami said:
    Rusque said:
    This type of claim pops up every now and then. I'll believe it when it's live and with actual players.
    You can watch the videos yourself, whether they are bots or actual players isn't all that significant difference. 

    It is very much believable, technically it was always possible, it is only a matter of what you will trade off for large scale pvp and whether there is a demand for such games - that is also a reason no such MMOs are being made.
    We'll see, I won't hold my breath.
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,265
    I've got another question that concerns me:  Will huge battles just be a wild zerg?  Are the only significant attacks going to be AoE?  How do you pick a target out of the masses and stick with it in combat?
  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Member RarePosts: 3,839
    I'm hoping that number is the reason the game looks like complete ass. 

    Played: AA, AC1, AC2, Aion, AO, AoC, BDO, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, EVE, EQ1, EQ2,
    ESO, Fallen Earth, FFXI, FFXIV, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MxO, Neverwinter, Rift, RoE,
    Ryzom, Shadowbane, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...and a bunch of others not worth mentioning.


    Joined - July 2004

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    DMKano said:
    What was the latency between bot clients and server?

    This is key in simulating real world performance, as latency is directly related to maximum bandwidth throughput from server back to clients

    I didnt see latency figures mentioned anywhere.
    Yeah, it's pretty hard to simulate network routing (latency and jitter) down to the last mile. That's also mostly out of their control.
    francis_baud
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


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